Project Update Thursday - 1 Dec 2011 – Conversation in Home Improvement

Chris Cudmore

Dec 1, 2011 19:48

Ok, seeing as PUT has started, I finally corrected the paint job on a door frame that was latex on oil. Looked like a bad sunburn.

Tester101

Dec 1, 2011 19:59

Welcome to Project Update Thursday!

@ChrisCudmore Pictures?

Chris Cudmore

Nah.. Didn't bother. It was mostly a scraping job. Then one hell of a cleanup. Primer is your friend. Do not skip primer!

Aaron

we're also looking into stripping this outside paint that is starting to flake badly on the doorframe

What's the best source for bulk packs of receptacles? I might just go ahead and put in tamper-resistant ones

Chris Cudmore

Take your time, use a good scraper, and get one of those sponge sanding blocks to get rid of the last bits of paint.

I was also thinking of trying a wire brush attachement for the drill, but didn't need it.

Tester101

@Aaron Home depot sells "contractor packs", but you'll probably get a better price at an electrical supply shop (depending on how many you buy).

Aaron

I found 10 packs of non-TR ones

but sourcing TR ones is a little harder

Tester101

Dec 1, 2011 20:06

It depends on your area, in some places code requires them. other places have not yet adopted the code, so they are harder to find.

@Aaron 10 pack at HD

I think they offer "site to store" shipping.

Aaron

Hmmm, I wonder if I need to go to the contractor section to get them

Tester101

@Aaron usually they are on a shelf above or below the "commoner" selection. Sometimes they are just in a box that you would see and think it's just extra stock.

Steve Jackson

Update: I finally finished my insulation in the attic. I only needed a roll of R-13 in total, so I bought faced for the vapor barrier on the bottom layer and peeled it off for those on top.

Tester101

@SteveJackson Pictures?

Steve Jackson

Nope. Too boring for pictures.

Oh I forgot I was going to break out a bottle of the good stuff for PUT

Tester101

Dec 1, 2011 20:20

What type of tools/safety gear did you need?

Chris Cudmore

Which reminds me... I should probably go take a look in the attic at one point. I'm of the opinion that as long as I don't open the hatch, it doesn't need any work.

Steve Jackson

Tester101

@SteveJackson Too bad they don't make a tool for opening bottles. Somebody could be a millionaire!

BMitch

I finished my basement water damage repair, even shampooed the carpet before family showed up for Thanksgiving (no, I didn't get the after pics, and you already saw the before pics)

next up, between the holiday shopping, is to winterize my yard

Chris Cudmore

Bmitch? Was it leaking, or was it a spill?

Aaron

Dec 1, 2011 20:25

@SteveJackson, we have extremely lacking insulation in the attic, but there's plywood already nailed to the top of the floor joists there

BMitch

@ChrisCudmore live in a town house where the back of my house pokes out a few feet, and I'm a foot or so lower than my neighbor. Said neighbor built up the back patio up above my foundation so dirt was directly against my siding.

Chris Cudmore

It always sucks when the damage was avoidable.

BMitch

drainage was also into the corner rather than out into the yard

yeah, I'm only getting so mad because it was like that for years and I would see a small leak from time to time, but we had some crazy storms in the late summer/fall and his gutter was backed up, making the problem much worse

Steve Jackson

@Aaron Depending on your heating/cooling bills, it's totally worth the effort to pull up some plywood :) I blew in a ton of the stuff when I changed out my second story windows and it made a HUGE difference.

Aaron

The bills are definitely part of it, we're also concerned about the ice dams on the south-facing roof

(this is a 1940s house we have just acquired, and there was some water damage in the 2nd story bedroom walls on that top edge right under the gutter

so, would you pull up the plywood, and then remove the rolls of insulation that are already there, and then ... ?

Steve Jackson

Dec 1, 2011 20:30

You don't have to remove what's there if it's not wet or damaged. Just pile more on top.

Well, I guess you should check and make sure there's a vapor barrier first.

Aaron

and then refloor it if we want to use it for storage?

Steve Jackson

Yep. How tall are your joists?

Tester101

@Aaron does the roof have proper ventilation (soffit vents, roof/ridge vents)?

BMitch

@Aaron make sure the joists are load bearing, many aren't designed to have a floor/storage on top

Aaron

I do not know how tall the joists are, I would assume, based on the depth of the framing around the top of the ladder box, around 8 inches

@Tester101, I am not sure if there are soffit vents, but I know there are vents on the sides of the house (where there is siding, not slate roof)

@BMitch, how do I figure that out?

Steve Jackson

Dec 1, 2011 20:34

The height of your joists determines how good your insulation can be. I didn't know this initially, but you can't just cram more in the cavity and hope for better insulation, it needs space to trap the air.

BMitch

@Aaron frequently if the builder didn't put a floor in there, they didn't design it to have a floor/storage. light stuff won't be a big deal, but frequently storage isn't light

Steve Jackson

You can sister the joists, but you'll want to get a pro opinion first to be safe.

BMitch

All the structure in the roof is mostly to support the roof itself, and any load on the roof (snow), so realize that you can put stuff up there and not see anything wrong until a major snow storm hits.

Aaron

@BMitch, well, considering it's not easy to get stuff up there to begin with, I presume it mostly would be boxes, ornaments, stuff like that

@SteveJackson, sister the joints?

Chris Cudmore

If you sister them, the bats of insulation won't fit.

Steve Jackson

Dec 1, 2011 20:39

@Aaron Basically you attach another board to the existing joist to make it stronger. It's tricky to get right, and sounds like overkill for your purposes anyway. Something like this.

Chris Cudmore

Wouldn't it be stronger to glue and screw a 2x4 on top of the joists? It would increase the moment of area significantly.

It's not like headroom is an issue in the attic.

Aaron

Can you get (relatively) higher R-insulation that is the same amount of height as "older" insulation?

or is 8" of insulation about the same R-value from the 60s to now?

Steve Jackson

@ChrisCudmore Ah, sorry, I jumped into @BMitch's conversation about support. To get more insulation in, yes you could make the joists higher. Is that what you're referring to?

Chris Cudmore

Yes. It would also strengthen the joists more if he's going to floor it.

Steve Jackson

@Aaron you could do different methods of insulation. I'm assuming you have fiberglass now. I only have experience with fiberglass and blown cellulose personally. I think cellulose has a higher r-value per inch, so in theory you'd get some gain by replacing the fiberglass with cellulose, but I don't think it's that significant.

You need to figure out the r-value of what you have is, and then what's cost effective for getting an r-value you might want. So if you have 3.5 inches of fiberglass now, you have about an r-13.

So in my attic, I have 12 inch joists. I put in 3 layers of R-13 where I had to replace my insulation (it got wet), so I have approx R-39 there, which is ok for where I live (Houston, TX).

Tester101

Dec 1, 2011 20:49

@SteveJackson Could he spray in some Closed Cell Foam insulation? I think that's about R6/inch.

Not sure how thick you can spray it.

Aaron

Is there a reason you did 3x R-13 instad of R-39?

Steve Jackson

@Tester101 Me neither. Plus it might be more expensive to do that than add 2x4s and fiberglass or cellulose.

@Aaron The cheapest roll of insulation you can buy at the box store is usually R13 (for 2x4s). Since I didn't have very much to replace I could just triple up the roll. So roll off enough for the space, cut, roll it off again, throw it on top. Now I bought faced (has the craft paper on it) so I had to remove that from the higher layers.

When I did my whole attic I used cellulose because that was much cheaper, easier, etc.

If you buy enough of the cellulose they'll let you rent the machine to blow it in for free.

Aaron

I may have to investigat the soffits underneath the gutters to find out what's going on there

Tester101

Found a good chart of R values for different materials R-Value Table.

Steve Jackson

Good table. The one on wikipedia caused my eyes to glaze over :)

Tester101

Dec 1, 2011 20:58

@Aaron ventilation is very important to roof health. the basic idea is to keep the roof the same temperature as the outside air.

Make sure the soffit vents are not blocked by insulation, you want air to flow in the soffit vent, up the roof, and out the ridge/roof vents.

You can use baffles like this to allow air to flow, while still being able to add insulation to the roof.

shirlock homes

gee I almost forgot it was thursday.

Steve Jackson

Hey @Shirlock. How ya been?

shirlock homes

pretty busy actually

Steve Jackson

@Tester101 Found this"The closed cell 2-pcf foam can be spray-applied into open wall cavities, crawlspaces, perimeter joists, cathedral ceilings, and garage ceilings at a maximum total thickness of 6". Product must be installed according to local code, and must be applied by a certified applicator. "

shirlock homes

did a gutter job today. getting too cold outside for me!

BMitch

Dec 1, 2011 21:07

come on down to VA, we're a bit warmer, and my gutters need cleaning :)

shirlock homes

where is my girlfriend today?

BMitch

she ran off

something about not being able to be here at the same time as you

shirlock homes

actually pretty warm here too. 50 today, usually 30 this time of year

lololol it is a plot

did I miss any fun stuff?

Steve Jackson

@Aaron is thinking about insulation in his attic and replacing his outlets and @chris wants his wife to stop helping him with his projects.

BMitch

hmm, we've got @Aaron insulating his attic, trying to figure out if the joists are load bearing

shirlock homes

Dec 1, 2011 21:10

no good can ever come from a wife helping with a DIY

not is you want to satay married. lol

Chris Cudmore

Yeah, part of the problem is that I don't necessarily react well to the "help"

Tester101

@shirlockhomes good thing @Aarthi isn't here to hear you say that.

shirlock homes

Joists aren't load bearing, the walls under them are

BMitch

@Tester101, you know they're the same person, right :D

Aarthi

hahaha

Tester101

Dec 1, 2011 21:11

Uh oh @shirlockhomes you're in trouble now.

Steve Jackson

The jig is up!

shirlock homes

opps she's back

BMitch

lol

Chris Cudmore

She's back!

Aarthi

haha that's what happens when Tester ALERTS me.

shirlock homes

Dec 1, 2011 21:12

Aarhi is coming to maine next summer and cruise on the "Black Pearl"

live podcast from the water

BMitch

is that what you kids call it now. ducks

Steve Jackson

@Aarthi is a great pirate name!

Tester101

@Aarthi had to send up the Aarthi signal, we needed a women's presence to keep the chat gender neutral.

shirlock homes

sure is.

Aarthi

@shirlockhomes that sounds like an awesome idea :D

shirlock homes

Dec 1, 2011 21:14

I'm so neutral, I'm biege

Aarthi

@shirlockhomes hahaha

okay seriously though I can't be in here too much, as much as I adore y'all

right now i'm on a call! eeeeek :O

shirlock homes

likely story

Aarthi

lol i'll screencap my screen BUT THAT WOULD BE CHEATING

shirlock homes

so, what was the verdict on the joists?

Tester101

@shirlockhomes have you ever worked with closed cell foam insulation, or any spray foam insulation for that matter?

shirlock homes

Dec 1, 2011 21:15

I admit, I haven't back read all the comments

Steve Jackson

He thinks he has 8 inch joists, not sure how much insulation. there's already plywood down and he wants to put it back and use it for light storage afterwards.

shirlock homes

yes, sub it out, but used a lot of it

Steve Jackson

Plus there's an ice dam on the south roof.

Tester101

How does it compare to fiberglass?

BMitch

no good verdict on the joists, just trying to determine if there's enough to put a floor on there

shirlock homes

Dec 1, 2011 21:17

my first thought is blown in HD

fill her up

cellulose

BMitch

you can blow in a Home Depot? :)

I've got to put one of those in my attic

shirlock homes

NO, the rental machines aren't powerful enouhg

Tester101

@BMitch no no no. they blow the cellulose in high definition.

shirlock homes

High density!!!! lmao

Steve Jackson

Huh..my cellulose made everything kinda fuzzy

BMitch

Dec 1, 2011 21:19

@Tester101 awesome, but is it 3D yet?

Tester101

It's also in 3D, looks like it's coming right at you.

shirlock homes

see your doctor

Steve Jackson

Would you leave the fiberglass that's in place and just put cellulose on top? Or would he get more bang for his buck by removing what's already there and replacing it with high-density?

shirlock homes

faom is great, but wicked expensive

how much f/g? and is it taped?

unfaced?

good fit?

Aaron

I don't know yet, I haven't pulled up the plywood to check

Tester101

Dec 1, 2011 21:21

Could be empty.

shirlock homes

guess you gotta take a look first

you can get r30 in an 8 inch viod

Tester101

@Aaron you'll have to take a look before next Thursday.

shirlock homes

R44 would be better, but 8 inch joists are small

Tester101

@shirlockhomes that was the other thing we discussed... if he could extend the joists.

shirlock homes

I really don't think the wxpense of foam would be cost effective

Aaron

Dec 1, 2011 21:23

@Tester101, I sincerely hope it is not empty

That would make me upset

shirlock homes

are these really joists or collar ties?

Tester101

@Aaron when was the house built? might be filled with old newspaper.

Aaron

194X

shirlock homes

yes indeed, I've found newspaper and old clothing before

40's would be spun crap. maybe R 4 or 5 at best

that is assuming it is original from the 40's

Tester101

@shirlockhomes sounds stinky!

shirlock homes

Dec 1, 2011 21:26

what is the spacing>

mice love it

so do hornets!!!!! OMG!!!!!

wanna see some pics of this attic. guessing a lot here

pull a couple of plywoods so I can see the ceiling

Tester101

@Aaron when you get a chance to get up there, pull up the plywood and take some pictures. Then ask a question on the main site, and include the pictures.

shirlock homes

are there any soffit vents?

I missed the beginning. sorry

Tester101

@shirlockhomes I think he said he didn't know if there were soffit vents.

shirlock homes

Arron, are there sytrofoam tunnels along the rafters?

Are there any openings or screens under the soffits??

Tester101

@shirlockhomes he mentioned vents on the ends of the attic, so I'm guessing there are no ridge/roof vents.

shirlock homes

Dec 1, 2011 21:35

OK, probaly not in a 1940's house unless retrofitted

Tester101

1940's build, i'd guess the soffits are open on the outside, and sealed from the attic.

shirlock homes

hard to know without pics

in this area all the soffits are closed, even in old houses

very few open rafter tails

Tester101

I'm guessing there is no air flow through the soffit, since he mentioned the vents at each end of the attic.

Guess they depended on the wind for ventilation back in the day.

shirlock homes

I gotta find my pirate pics for Aarthi. LOL

most had no vents at all if they had a 6 or better pitch

Tester101

Well I gotta get out of here. Somebody turn off the lights when you're done.

Steve Jackson

Dec 1, 2011 21:40

See ya later @Tester101

Aaron

There is some loose insulation at the very front and back edges of the roof, between the joists, but the plywood doesn't extend all the way to the tip tip

shirlock homes

well, post some pics, we'll help you out

Aaron

yeah, I'm trying to stay away from the HALP ME and get more compartmentalized/answerable questions

but the problem is that I don't even know which questions to start with

shirlock homes

you will get the hang of it

I do take calls if you really need some advise.

Aaron

well, one aspect at a time

The outlets I think I can handle

One of the upcoming things which I will probably post a Q for is how to install a fan vent in the bathroom (it does not have one currently)

shirlock homes

Dec 1, 2011 21:44

omg you got the outlet thing I just commented on?

Aaron

and what's the best way to get through the roof/insulation/etc with the vent, etc

shirlock homes

did you have a home inspection and did you plan on some rehab?

Steve Jackson

@Aaron Feel free to drop the broad questions in the chat and we can help break them down. You've been here a couple days, there's usually a few of us just hanging out in here looking for something to talk about.

shirlock homes

be sure to post simple single topic questions. got a lot of good guys here, good answers

Aaron

@shirlockhomes, yes to both questions

shirlock homes

Dec 1, 2011 21:47

This site has several excellent contriutors. I keep an eye on them! lolololol

Aaron

but like, would it be conducive (and helpful) to the site, to just post a question 'How do I install a bathroom vent fan here' and provide pictures of the area in the attic and the bathroom?

Steve Jackson

I think that's a good question, especially with pics.

shirlock homes

lots of times, a really good answer takes a lot of time to type and is not as complete as we would like. so take it a small piece at a time

Aaron

because of course I also have to get power to this area above the bathroom, and wire up a switch somewhere, etc. etc. so it gets a little more complicated than just 'cut a hole, put it in'

shirlock homes

u got that right. but if you have the plywood off, that is good time to drop/fish wire

Aaron

Dec 1, 2011 21:49

@shirlockhomes, so as to the grounded outlets, your answer is do not use the armored conduit for ground under any circumstances?

BMitch

woah, my SE goodies arrived by mail during PUT

Chris Cudmore

It's been a few weeks. I'm still waiting.

shirlock homes

i would never do that. If I saw that during an inspection, huge RED FLAGS!!!

I would advise buyer to plan to rewire or walk away

what goodees you get? I want pencils!!!!!!!!

Chris Cudmore

But the armored conduit was acceptable at one point, wasn't it?

Bmitch: Pics!!!

shirlock homes

it was fine for 2 wire, never for 3 wire without a drain conductor

BMitch

Dec 1, 2011 21:52

ok, one sec, I'll send ya guys a pic

shirlock homes

some BX had a small ground conductor

@Aarthi, where are my pencils? hehehehehe

Aarthi

@shirlockhomes eek! i totally blanked.

wait i need you to email me

shirlock homes

bet you gave them all to tester and Bmitch

Aarthi

actually i have like 700 left

shall i just send you a box?

shirlock homes

now I know who are your favs

[email protected]

living in my rehab spec house

BMitch

Dec 1, 2011 21:56

lol, while you still can, click the drop down next to those messages and hit delete, otherwise your contact info will be in the transcript

shirlock homes

I want 1,000,000 boxes

OPPS

I can't delete. oh well, not a problem

BMitch

Steve Jackson

Ooooh....swaggy!

shirlock homes

oh Ya Aarthi loves you!!!!!!! look at all that swag

ChrisF

@BMitch Oooh - when did that arrive?

BMitch

Dec 1, 2011 21:58

@ChrisF about 10 minutes ago, in the middle of PUT

@ChrisF can you do Shirlock a fav and delete his contact info from a few posts up

ChrisF

@BMitch Done

BMitch

Thanks

shirlock homes

@BMitch, you been sending Aarthi flowers or someting?

ChrisF

@BMitch So given they've arrived in Virginia, how long will it take to get across the Atlantic?

BMitch

@shirlockhomes, I'll email your contact into to Aarthi and cc you so you have her home address :)

shirlock homes

Dec 1, 2011 22:00

TY Chris

Steve Jackson

Depends how fast the turtle swims....

shirlock homes

lolololol OK

ChrisF

@shirlockhomes It's the top user swag pack. You should have been sent an e-mail for claiming yours

BMitch

package shipped from MA, so if Shirlock filled out that google docs form, I'm betting he'd have it in no time

auujay

@BMitch, I got mine today too!

stackexchange goodies that is

shirlock homes

Dec 1, 2011 22:01

I do remember seeing that, thought I send back my info. Aarthi was mad at me I think. lolololol

BMitch

I'm liking the retractable felt tip pin

ok, I'm slipping, anyone have any last words for PUT?

shirlock homes

maybe takes longer to get north to maine....

but them is we are one in the same, I already have them

auujay

My coworkers were more impressed with the letter from Joel than the swag :)

Chris Cudmore

So I'll probably get it on Monday in Toronto.

shirlock homes

no last words, just glad i got in before you all whent to sleep

BMitch

Dec 1, 2011 22:03

Thanks for joining us for this week's PUT.

Project Update Thursday - 1 Dec 2011

Home Improvement

Participants