Islam and Judaism dialogue

Ali

1:57 AM

@mezhang Assalamalaikum , do check out : jews-for-allah.org

@banging Hii

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

@Ali that site is equal to :(

Ali

@banging May I ask you, are you a Jew?

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob :)

mezhang

3:48 AM

@Ali Wow this is amazing

Daniel

4:11 AM

@mezhang Let me just warn you that that site does not accurately represent the Jewish view of Islam

It is an Islamic website

not a Jewish one

@mezhang As for why Islam is not a superset of Judaism: Islam does not have many of the laws that Judaism has from the Torah

like eating Matzah on Passover

or wearing fringes on the corners of our garments

or not mixing meat and dairy

and many, many others

Ali

4:39 AM

@mezhang @Daniel let me also tell you not all the commandments in the list is folllowed by the Jews . Infact it wont be wrong to say that Muslims follow more of the 613 then the Jews themselves

More ever the 613 number is a heresy according to many traditional rabbis themselves. The list is their own invention

Seth J

@Ali it would most definitely be wrong to say that, not least because it is offensive, as well as grossly inaccurate.

You keep making stuff up and hoping that eventually it will become true.

2

Ali

@SethJ And you keep on whining and ranting learning from your friend Mr Dhoweed

Seth J

Never mind. I fell for your bait again and 386ed myself.

Ali

rather then whining ,bring something constructive

to the table

mezhang

@Daniel Thank you. I am aware of that, they are Muslims with Jewish origin.

Ali

4:44 AM

Islam is a superset of 613 mitzovas and 613 mitzovas are an innovation(heresy)en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments#Dissent_and_difficulties

May 31 at 6:28, 5 hours 55 minutes total – 15 messages, 2 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked May 31 at 12:31 by Ali

#Dissent_and_difficulties

check the wiki section #Dissent_and_difficulties

mezhang

@Ali @SethJ It is more than clear that we have different opinions. Let us use soft words and be more reference-based than argument-based

It is better suited for the purpose of this chat room

Ali

What has resulted is that many of the other wise god fearing people have turned away from religion and accepted athiesm

mezhang

If we worry about each other going astray and care about each other's result in the Hereafter, then we should be nice and talk intellectually. If you want to prove you right and the other wrong, just for your pleasure, then there is no point and it is not possible

because we are using different axioms, there is nothing to argue about, our reasoning cannot mean anything on the other side because we are assuming different things

Ali

Degradation of Islam into Judaism- A peculiar practice instituted by the Rabbis

May 13 at 17:58, 1 hour 37 minutes total – 125 messages, 5 users, 2 stars

Bookmarked May 31 at 11:43 by Ali

mezhang

@Ali Despite the fact that I am a Muslim, I don't think it is helpful or meaningful to put all these arguments here, because they can put theirs, then what?

there is no end to this, we believe in different things so there is no point in proving each other wrong

Ali

4:54 AM

@mezhang I am putting these arguments not for them , but myself

It would be only incidental if they would agree with me. I am not here to convince either. Just to kindle each others thoughts and re examine our beliefs

Guidance is with Allah Alone

Seek guidance and you will get it

mezhang

I agree, therefore let us leave some space for them to reply and not say too many lines at once, if you want your thoughts to be kindled

Ali

@mezhang Outburst of thoughts :)

I am moving out now, let us kindle our thoughts !

Daniel

@Ali I never said anything about 613

I said that there are laws in the Torah that are not part of Islam

that Jews do and Muslims do not

like the ones I listed above

Feel free to say that there are Torah laws that Jews don't follow and Muslims do

it's not true

but whatever

But it doesn't prove that Islam is a superset of Judaism

for that, it would be required that Muslims do all of the laws of Judaism plus some others

and since I've never seen a Muslim wearing Tzitzit, I know that Islam is not a superset of Judaism

mezhang

5:15 AM

@Daniel May I ask that you are a Jew right?

@Daniel It is clear that a Jew does not believe Islam is a superset of Judaism.

@Daniel As a Muslim, I also believe that Islam is not a superset of Judaism.

Because there are things in Judaism that is not in Islam

simply because Islam does not acknowledge everything from Jadaism, please excuse me to state the Islamic belief, that somethings are corrupted, which are accepted in Judaism but not Islam

Therefore it is natural that both Jews and Muslims do not believe that Islam is a superset of Judaism.

Daniel

@mezhang Yes, I am a Jew

I don't understand why Ali is trying to argue that Islam is a superset of Judaism

I don't think really any other Muslims would make that claim

and I don't know why they would want to

Ali

@mezhang What I mean by superset is not what you use in math since we are not dealing with math , its more like "supersede". Islam precedes and supersedes Judaism . Due to the symbolic fallacy of using the term "Judaism" to refer to "God's RELIGION will cause ambiguity in understanding.

Daniel

@Ali That's not what superset means

That could explain why everybody is confused

Ali

@Daniel all this confusion is attributed to the major confusion of using the term "Judaism" as previously stated

Daniel

@Ali No it's not

Nobody cares what the name of our religion is

besides you

Ali

5:26 AM

May 31 at 17:50, by Ali

*The Jews have committed the Symbolic reduction fallacy in coining the term Judaism, It is the biased tendency of the brain to represent a complex object or system by a symbol(Judaism), which loses at
least the nuances and the truth of the matter*

Daniel

@Ali That is a baseless statement

And overly broad

Ali

This is because Jews claim that moses etc were Jews

Daniel

@Ali We use the word "Jew" in a lot of different ways

Ali

and they themselves dont know what is this term "Jew"\"Yahoodi"\ etc

mezhang

@Daniel out of personal curiosity, why are you interested in Islam?

Daniel

5:27 AM

So we say Abraham and other prophets were "Jewish"

but certainly not in the way someone today is Jewish

He hadn't received the Torah

@mezhang Just interested

Although it's hard to be on here without Ali attacking my being Jewish

@Ali I have no problem with you saying that Abraham, Moses, etc. were Muslim

mezhang

Because they do submit to God

Daniel

that's part of the dogma of your religion

@mezhang right

But I don't even have a problem with you saying that they followed Islam in the way that it is followed now

That's just what Islam says about the matter

Ali

@Daniel I am not attacking you , but certainly I feel that it is an error to use the term "Judaism"

Daniel

@Ali Why?

Ali

to represent the religion of GOD

mezhang

5:31 AM

What should they use then?

Daniel

@Ali What's the problem with it? Just because the name of your religion happens to be descriptive of what the religion is all about doesn't mean all religions have to be that way

Ali

May 31 at 18:07, by Daniel

@Ali Ok then. I'm already Muslim then

Daniel

@Ali If by Muslim you mean submit to God's will, then that's what I am

if by Muslim, you mean follower of Mohammad, then I am not

mezhang

@Daniel Agreed

Ali

So one should not refer the prophets as Jews right?

May 31 at 18:13, by Ali

[2.135] And they say: Be Jews or Christians, you will be on the right course. Say: Nay! (we follow) the religion of Ibrahim, the Hanif, and he was not one of the polytheists.

mezhang

5:34 AM

Jews are not polytheists either

Ali

May 31 at 18:14, by Ali

[2.140] Nay! do you say that Ibrahim and Ismail and Yaqoub and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Are you better knowing or Allah? And who is more unjust than he who conceals a testimony that he has from Allah? And Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.

Daniel

@Ali When we refer to the prophets as Jews, it's really only a matter of speaking

Although it is a common belief that they followed the laws of the Torah

even before it was given

Ali

Its a wrong speaking

May 31 at 18:14, by Ali

[2.140] Nay! do you say that Ibrahim and Ismail and Yaqoub and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Are you better knowing or Allah? And who is more unjust than he who conceals a testimony that he has from Allah? And Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.

Daniel

@Ali We don't have any better word to use

mezhang

Well, if you want to prove them wrong by citing Quran, it has no effect. For they do not believe in Quran...

Daniel

5:36 AM

@mezhang I've already told him that. He doesn't listen

mezhang

You can prove to yourself that they are wrong at most, and they can do the same

Ali

@mezhang I already toldn you I am not doing for them

Daniel

@mezhang Right. Which is why we have separate religions

Which is totally fine

@Ali So why do you keep bringing it up?

You keep saying the same things

mezhang

...anyways...

Daniel

But you already know them

mezhang

5:37 AM

lets talk about something else, slightly more constructive

Ali

It was asked

@mezhang Sure

Daniel

@mezhang Yes please

I can't remember the last time there was a constructive conversation on this board

mezhang

Haha

so I was suspecting

Daniel

There have been, I think

mezhang

Ok, I have a topic

So the Isareal/Palestine tension has led to Jews/Muslims tension

But should it?

As in, there are times where Jews and Muslims lived more or less peacefully together

but how do you the situation today?

Ali

5:41 AM

@mezhang Sure this conflict has nothing to do with our religion atleast

mezhang

For example, Iran has threatened to bomb Isareal and so one, but that need not stand for the stance of Muslims in Iran against Jews in Isareal, am I correct?

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

@Ali la illaha ilallah

Ali

Its a highly politicized gam

game

Daniel

@Ali It's a combination of things, and it is partially religion and partially not

mezhang

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob Assalam Alaykum

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

5:44 AM

@mezhang wa 3leicham

Daniel

For example, both Judaism and Islam have a concept of never giving up land that once belonged to them

Ali

Maybe Allah's promise has passed and Muslims (The new """Jews""" )had already taken Jerusalem.

mezhang

@Daniel I see, so there are people who insist on the land for religious reasons

Daniel

@mezhang yes

mezhang

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob @Daniel What is your stance on Palestine

Daniel

5:45 AM

So Jews and Muslims were able to live in peace in Spain, for example, because Jews never controlled Spain

and therefore did not have an obligation to maintain possession of it

They were content living under Muslim rule

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

@Ali maybe you are so ignorant that making up and creating your own stupid understanding of my holy texts is causing you too much trouble and us certainly as well

mezhang

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob Let us use soft words and not use things like 'ignorant' and 'stupid', please.

Daniel

@mezhang Stance about what?

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

@mezhang its almost 2am. i have had this discussion millions of time. i dont have time to talk about it over and over again

mezhang

@Daniel Do you believe Palestine should be a part of Israel ?

Daniel

5:47 AM

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob We're not talking about it anymore

@mezhang Well that's a tough question

Ali

@mezhang It is only in the religious interests of Jews, not Muslims. But since Muslims(God's people) happened to have occupation in Jerusalem . It is unethical to kick the people out because of religion alone

mezhang

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob Yes sir, so let us move on. I have asked you about your opinion on whether Palestine should be a part of Israel.

Daniel

Hamas is the primary enemy of Israel right now

and they will be an enemy of Israel regardless of whether there is a Palestinian state

mezhang

Hamas, I need to search that..

Daniel

@mezhang They are the party that controls the Gaza strip

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

5:48 AM

@mezhang i told you im not getting involved into a discussion with uneducated people and have no time for it

Daniel

Considered by the world to be a terrorist organization

Ali

@Daniel Do you agree with the occupation of Israel before the coming of messiah?

mezhang

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob ok..are you referring to me?

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

no

Daniel

@Ali Some people think that there is a law that Jews should never control the land of Israel before the coming of the Messiah. I don't really understand where they're getting that idea from

mezhang

5:50 AM

So, daniel, for example, do you think it is acceptable for muslims to reside in Israel?

Daniel

@mezhang Absolutely

And they do

There are Muslim members of the Israeli parliament

even one of the Supreme Court Justices is Muslim

mezhang

that is something indeed.

Daniel

@mezhang Israel has freedom of religion

mezhang

because not all muslims will agree for jews to reside in saudi arabia

especially mecca

Daniel

@mezhang As far as I know, there are no Jews who would be opposed to Muslims living in Israel

There have always been non-Jews there

mezhang

5:53 AM

@Daniel That is good to know. What do you see as problematic: Israel take over Palestine as a country, but allow all the Muslims to live as they previously do

and they share the country in peace. Is it possible, why or why not

Ali

Jun 3 at 15:12, by MoriDoweedhYaAgob

Remove all mosques send all Arabs back to Jordan Egypt and wherever else they came from

Daniel

I take it back, currently one of the members of the Supreme Court is an Arab, but he is Christian, not Muslim

there has been a Muslim on the Supreme Court before, though

mezhang

ok

Daniel

@mezhang That's what Israel has tried to do all along

But Hamas does not accept it

They do not believe that there should ever be a Jewish state in that land

And one of their stated missions is complete destruction of Israel

So that makes it a big problem to just live and let live

@Ali We have already established that he doesn't speak for Jews

Including his rather esoteric way of practicing Judaism

Ali

@Daniel Actually there is no religious obligation to have Israel , but Muslims were already living in Israel and were kicked out by the Israeli govt in huge numbers

Daniel

5:56 AM

and other things

mezhang

Ok. Then what actions the Israeli government did that you don't agree with?

Daniel

@Ali Sort of

Really the land was purchased from Muslims by Jews

Ali

There would be no problems if jews continued to remain as guest in muslim countries

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

@Ali stay in india dont come to israel

Daniel

I'll admit that it was kind of "purchased" in the same way that the United States was "purchased" from the native americans

Ali

5:58 AM

but the zionists wanted Israel to be owned by them

mezhang

@Daniel I see.

Daniel

@Ali there has never been a Muslim country called Palestine

or called anything else in that land

Ali

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob Inshallah I will come !

:) for you

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

nope

mezhang

What about the bombing of the region done by Israeli government? Do you claim it to be western media or what do you think about it.

Daniel

5:59 AM

@mezhang Do I claim what to be western media?

Israel definitely has bombed areas within Palestine

mezhang

Ok, what do you think about the bombing

Daniel

is that what you're asking?

Ali

Israeli-occupied territories

The Israeli-occupied territories are the territories which have been designated as occupied territory by the United Nations and other international organizations, governments and others to refer to the territory seized by Israel during the Six-Day War of 1967 from Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. They consist of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem; the Gaza Strip, (though Israel disputes this and argues that since the implementation of its disengagement from Gaza in 2005 it no longer occupies the territory); much of the Golan Heights; and, until 1982, the Sinai Peninsula. The West Bank and G...

mezhang

yes, i was asking that

Daniel

@mezhang I think it's part of an ongoing conflict

Ali

6:00 AM

Even the UN which is a puppet of USA says that Israel is the occupier,

mezhang

Do areas within Palestine bomb back?

Ali

an illegal occupier

a usurper of land

Daniel

@mezhang Well the problem is that Palestine doesn't have a real government

So there are rocket attacks that come from Gaza

into Israel

and Israel attempts to bomb the rockets

mezhang

Ok, from the hamas

?

Daniel

@mezhang Right

and others

Ali

6:02 AM

May be hamas is set by Israel as a proxy game

Daniel

@Ali Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me

Ali

What hamas is doing is in the interest of Israel

mezhang

Why do you say that? Could you expand?

Ali

Infact there are many theories that Iran itself is also a secret ally of Israel

Daniel

@Ali Where do you get that idea from? Hamas sends rockets into Israel and gets condemnation but they don't care because everybody already knows they're terrorists. Then Israel bombs them back and everybody turns around and gets mad at them

mezhang

6:03 AM

Why so?

Daniel

@Ali That's definitely a conspiracy theory

Ali

Israel is so influential and powerful that Iran would have been bombed long back, had they not been covert allies

Iraq, Afghanistan all were bombed why not Iran?

Daniel

@Ali They were bombed by lots of countries. In fact, Israel is pretty much the only Western country that wasn't involved there

mezhang

@Daniel So Israel wants to take over palestine region, but with hamas attack, both sides are now in a deadlock, and they keep firing into each other, resulting dead people on both sides. Can I say that?

Daniel

@mezhang I highly doubt that Israel wants the Palestinion region

Ali

6:07 AM

@Daniel USA has an Israeli lobby to begin with

Daniel

They unilaterally left Gaza

Ali

@Daniel Zionists want the entire arab region which was biblical israel which includes Jordan etc..

Daniel

The had control and voluntarily gave it up

mezhang

@Daniel So what does Israel want now?

Daniel

@mezhang Israel wants Hamas to stop attacking them

mezhang

6:08 AM

@Daniel Ok. But by attacking back?

Daniel

@Ali That's not true. Zionism is a secular movement

Ali

@Daniel Actually israel wants them to attack them , to gain sympathy and political leverage

Daniel

@mezhang What should they do? Let them just keep firing on civilian cities?

mezhang

@Daniel and the Hama won't stop until they raze Israel?

Daniel

@Ali Ok good thinking. Go tell Hamas that they're playing right into Israel's hands

And that they should stop

@mezhang right

Ali

6:10 AM

@Daniel They wont as its Israel who is controlling them

mezhang

Good. I have learnt something today

Daniel

@Ali That is an absurd conspiracy theory

Unlike some other governments in the region, Israel doesn't intentionally kill its own civilians

Or get them kidnapped for years

mezhang

I might go to Israel for a summer program in a university

and I am Chinese and also Muslim, do you think I will run into trouble?

Ali

If you see the story of the 6 day war , how Israel used treachery and conspiracy to defeat 4+ arab nations singlehandedly, this sounds less treacherous

Daniel

@mezhang Not if you're not doing anything sketchy :)

mezhang

6:12 AM

Ok. Do I have to indicate that I am a Muslim when I apply for visa and does that reduce the chance of my visa?

Daniel

@mezhang I don't think you would have to indicate that

Ali

They plot and plan, and Allah too plans; but the best of planners is Allah

Daniel

But I don't think it would matter either way

Lots of Muslims visit Israel

mezhang

Ok. Good to know. Are you from Israel but currently in the states?

Daniel

@Ali The difference is that there was a war there, but if Hamas wasn't attacking Israel right now, there wouldn't be a war

Who are they trying to trick?

@mezhang No I'm from the U.S.

Ali

6:13 AM

@Daniel War is what Israel wants

Daniel

@Ali Just for fun?

Ali

to get even the remaining palestine

Daniel

@Ali I'm telling you, nobody wants it

mezhang

@Daniel So where is your family originally from, may I ask?

Daniel

None of the Arab countries would take it

Israel would love to get it off its hands

then people would stop complaining to them about the terrible conditions in the refugee camps

Israeli military literally forced Israeli citizens to leave their houses in Gaza

because Israel didn't want to deal with it anymore

@mezhang the U.S. for a few generations

Eastern Europe before that

mezhang

6:16 AM

@Daniel Cool. Great to meet you. I gotta go now

Ali

@mezhang Why would you like to goto Israel?

mezhang

@Ali for study during summer

Daniel

@mezhang Good night

Ali

You can also goto KSA

Kaust is a big university there

mezhang

@Ali I will in a few days

May peace be upon everyone

Ali

6:18 AM

@mezhang kaust.edu.sa

kaust.edu.sa

Daniel

I'm off to bed now too

good night

Ali

All the best

@mezhang are you going to KSA?

Anyways Israeli -Palestinain conflict is off topic here

Ali

2:17 PM

@Daniel hi

good morning

1

Q: Jews allowed to pray and join Muslim congregation in Mosques and Experiences

I had read somewhere in Maimonidian literature that Jews are allowed to pray in Mosques. Is it even allowed for them to Join the Muslim congregation and pray the Salat for they worship the same God (According to Maimonides)? Some references, from http://www.hashlamah.org/co-worship.html: A M...

Did you ever goto a mosque?

Daniel

2:29 PM

@Ali I have been in a mosque

but not for a prayer service

Ali

@Daniel What stops you in joining a congregation prayer?

is it forbidden/

?

Daniel

@Ali That is disputed, but likely yes

Participating in the prayer is definitely forbidden

Being there to observe may or may not be

Ali

I even took some Hindus to the mosque for congregational prayers and they liked it and it was a memorable expereice for them and they keep on asking to reapeat

Since you said you were interested in ISLAM , Experiential knowledge would open up new discoveries.

Daniel

@Ali I am sure that is true

I have not had the opportunity

And if I did, I would ask my rabbi if it was allowed before doing so

Ali

reading a 1000 books on Islam or judaism wont help much , rather than actually getting into its shoes

Daniel

2:40 PM

But I would be interested in observing prayers

Ali

@Daniel May I know who is your rabbi?

do you have concept of personal rabbis like family doctors?

Daniel

@Ali Would you expect to know him?

Ali

@Daniel Sure

Daniel

@Ali His name is Rabbi Michael Balinsky

I don't know why you'd know him

he's a rabbi in Chicago

one of many

Ali

myjewishlearning.com/blog/rabbis-without-borders/author/…

?

Daniel

2:45 PM

@Ali Yes, that is him

Ali

he is already famous'

Daniel

@Ali Kind of

Only within certain circles

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

No I'm arguing all religions besides noahidism is not real

Daniel

He's not one of the famous rabbis of a generation like the Lubavitcher Rebbe or like Rav Elyashiv

Ali

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob Are you bni Noah?

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

2:48 PM

make non jew can take all 613commandments by converting or stay with the 7 he supposed to have but not add new rules to it

Al Ummat مجاهد

← 3 messages moved from Islam

Ali

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob I also request you to join Muslim congregation prayer and experience the bliss of Islamic prayers

1

Q: Jews allowed to pray and join Muslim congregation in Mosques and Experiences

I had read somewhere in Maimonidian literature that Jews are allowed to pray in Mosques. Is it even allowed for them to Join the Muslim congregation and pray the Salat for they worship the same God (According to Maimonides)? Some references, from http://www.hashlamah.org/co-worship.html: A M...

halacha tefilla rambam islam

Rambam has already done that

@Daniel are u chabad?

Daniel

@Ali no

Ali

@Daniel Do you have muslim friends?

or colleagues?

Daniel

@Ali Yes. I attend an Engineering School at a large University in Chicago

Many of my friends and colleagues are Muslims

Ali

2:54 PM

@Daniel so you are stil a student?

you seemed to sound a lot mature

Daniel

@Ali I am old for a student

I spent a year before starting college

And now I am in an extra year to finish my master's degree

Ali

cool

masters in which?

field?

and may I ask your age?

Daniel

@Ali Computer Science. I am 23

Ali

O you are younger then me :))

me too comp sc, 26

mezhang

I have a question that is related to Judaism

In Islam, women have lower status than men. Because they are created as companions of men. see this. What about in Judaism?

@Daniel

Daniel

3:04 PM

@mezhang In Judaism, women are neither considered "equal" to men, nor are they considered inferior or of lower status

Their roles are different

They have different requirements and obligations

mezhang

Ok, let me correct myself, not lower status, but with lesser intelligence

Daniel

There are some things that only men can do, and some things that only women can do

@mezhang Some of the rabbis in the Talmud seem to have possibly thought that, but it is not brought as practical halakha that we must see women that way

And in modern times, we do not consider women to be of lower intelligence than men as a whole

Ali

@mezhang women are neither considered lower status nor little intelligence in Isalm

they are considered to be more emotional which hampers their decision making abilities

mezhang

See this. For more discussion on this, let us continue in chat room Islam.

Daniel

3:21 PM

@mezhang If your question is about women's witness in court, as is being discussed in the other room, then things are a little different

Women are not valid witnesses in Judaism

except in very specific cases

Islam is a superset of 613 mitzovas and 613 mitzovas are an innovation(heresy)en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments#Dissent_and_difficulties

Degradation of Islam into Judaism- A peculiar practice instituted by the Rabbis

Transcript for

Islam and Judaism dialogue