Islam and Judaism dialogue

Ali

3:17 AM

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob The problem is that ,the fatwas in almud have become the part of torah

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

@Ali not everything in the talmud is fatwas

@Ali things rabbis said in the talmud are indeed torah

Ali

11 hours ago, by Ali

(Rabbinic))Torah=Torah+Talmud(sanhedrin+rambam+rashi+....)

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

you are not understanding what torah or sanhadreen or rambam or rashi is

lol

Ali

The traditional meaning of Torah is Tanach alone

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

no the traditional meaning of torah is torah

nach is not torah

if you mean a literal translation

@Ali you need to learn more than talking

all you do is talk and talk but you dont know basics

Ali

3:20 AM

So people at the time of moses pbuh did not have the complete torah right

?

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

they didnt have nach

nach came later..

nach is not torah

nach is nach

thats the difference between islam and judaism

islam only has quran hadeeths and fatwas

Ali

Torah

Torah (; , "Instruction", "Teaching") is a central concept in the Jewish tradition. It has a range of meanings: it can most specifically mean the first five books of the Tanakh, it can mean this, plus the rabbinic commentaries on it, it can mean the continued narrative from Genesis to the end of the Tanakh, it can even mean the totality of Jewish teaching and practice. Common to all these meanings, Torah consists of the foundational narrative of the Jewish people: their call into being by Yahweh (euphemistically called HaShem by Jews and denoted in English translations of the Bible as t...

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

@Ali It has a range of meanings: it can most specifically mean the first five books of the Tanakh,

did you read that?

you answered your own question

Ali

So it does have the tanach

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

@Ali .....................

@Ali do you even know the books of the tanach?

Ali

3:23 AM

Dont you see the Karaite Jews have the tanach as their torah?

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

@Ali that statement is so bad that i dont even want to talk to you lol

@Ali no one has tanach as their torah

they have Torah as their Torah

and Nach as their Nach

Ali

Ofcourse I mean the five books

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

do you know what nach means

....

Ali

Karaite Judaism

Karaite Judaism or Karaism ( or ; ") is a Jewish movement characterized by the recognition of the Tanakh alone as its supreme legal authority in Halakha (Jewish religious law) and theology. It is distinct from mainstream Rabbinic Judaism, which considers the Oral Torah, the legal decisions of the Sanhedrin as codified in the Talmud, and subsequent works to be authoritative interpretations of the Torah. Karaites maintain that all of the divine commandments handed down to Moses by God were recorded in the written Torah, without additional Oral Law or explanation. As a result, Karaite Jews ...

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

@Ali dont dodge the question

what means tanach

Ali

3:29 AM

Tanakh

The Tanakh (, or ; also Tenakh, Tenak, Tanach) is a name used in Judaism for the canon of the Hebrew Bible. The Tanakh is also known as the Masoretic Text or the Miqra. The name is an acronym formed from the initial Hebrew letters of the Masoretic Text's three traditional subdivisions: The Torah ("Teaching", also known as the Five Books of Moses), Nevi'im ("Prophets") and Ketuvim ("Writings")—hence TaNaKh. The name "Miqra" (מקרא), meaning "that which is read", is an alternative Hebrew term for the Tanakh. The books of the Tanakh were relayed with an accompanying oral tradition pas...

and thats according to the Jews

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

@Ali stop linking me wiki and give me a definition from yourself

if you depend on wiki then you obviously dont know anything

Ali

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob so is what the wiki saying is obviously wrong?

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

@Ali ill be waiting for an answer without wiki ty

Ali

The problem is that the cannonification of the tanakh(ie what is included and what is not) is itself controversial. So what can I do but link to wiki which summarizes it

Formal closure of the canon has often been ascribed to Rabbinic Judaism after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 AD. Heinrich Graetz proposed in 1871 that it was concluded at a Council of Jamnia (or Yavne in Hebrew), some time in the period 70–90 AD. However, Rabbinical writings seem to indicate that certain books were disputed as accepted canon (such as Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs and Esther, see also Antilegomena),

So again the rabbinic judaism decides what is included and what is not

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

it is known even to little kids why they were disputed

its in the talmud itself

given the reason...

you not bringing nothing new

you just reading wiki and trying to understand something without any background knowledge

Ali

3:39 AM

What is mentioned in the Quran is the Torah, which is the book of MOSES

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

nothing

it doesnt exist in that time period...

Ali

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob The wiki reflects the Jewish standpoint anyway

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

what?

Ali

What is mentioned in the Quran is the Torah, which is the book of MOSES and that alongwith the teachings of MOSES ALONE is the law

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

yes noone disputes that...

Ali

3:43 AM

وَكَيْفَ يُحَكِّمُونَكَ وَعِندَهُمُ التَّوْرَاةُ فِيهَا حُكْمُ اللّهِ ثُمَّ يَتَوَلَّوْنَ مِن بَعْدِ ذَلِكَ وَمَا أُوْلَـئِكَ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ {43
005:043 Khan
:
But how do they come to you for decision while they have the Taurat (Torah), in which is the (plain) Decision of Allah; yet even after that, they turn away. For they are not (really) believers.

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

@Ali idc about your wiki links and your quran quotes

@Ali get to the point if you have one

Ali

"Who revealed the Book which Moses brought, a light and guidance for mankind, which ye have put on parchments which ye show, but ye hide much (thereof), and by which ye were taught that which ye knew not yourselves nor (did) your fathers (know it)? Say: Allah...." Qur'an 6: 91

The point is that Torah is the law

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

@Ali like i said no one argues on that

@Ali now get to the point or im ending the convo

Ali

to be more clear point is Torah != Torah+sanhedrin+rambam+rashi...

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

@Ali i told you already before. you dont know what anything of those things you mentioned are

@Ali once you understand what those are then you can talk

Ali

3:52 AM

And how do they make thee a judge and they have the Torah wherein is Allah's judgment? Yet they turn away after that! And these are not believers.

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

@Ali go to sleep

Ali

I know sanhedrin is the council of scholars who added cannonical interpretations... and then came rambam...

we disagree on the cannonization \ closure of the torah

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

yea......thats not what it is...

.....and then came rambam rofl

Ali

I have made my point many times and you purposely fail to understand. So thats it.

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob so you can mail that "jewish girl" . and communicate with her or better invite her here.

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

@Ali i purposely fail to understand it because you purposely fail to understand judaism

all you do is wiki

@Ali yes invite her here please

Ali

4:01 AM

She is already writing a book

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

idc bout her book

tell her to come here

she is in the same point as you

doesnt know anything but talking a lot

Ali

you are free to believe in anything

I did invite her to come here but she is busy writing a book

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

may she do proper tashuvoh

and may HaShem accept it

omein

Ali

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob Should you rather do Repentance and accept Islam?

Islam is crystal clear

I just cant understand why their ego causes them to reject it at the expense of fire

More ever you have nothing to loose as according to "Judaism" you remain a Jew

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

@Ali la hawla wa la quwwata illa billah

Ali

4:06 AM

Does conversion to Islam cause you to fall out of the Bni Noah

?

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

@Ali on ask me things you were answered before bout

Ali

Islam is far better theologically then Bni Noah

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

@Ali lol

@Ali my religious theology can beat up your religious theology

Ali

O is this why Rambam was so influenced by Islam ?

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

@Ali yes exactly for that reason

Ali

4:11 AM

Ok nice to talk to you , I can only pray for you, so can you . I also request other readers to pray to guide all of us to the submission to Allah alone(Islam)

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

@Ali good night ali you need your rest

@goldPseudo where do you find these guys

goldPseudo

don't look at me.

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

there is not on else here to look at

lol

goldPseudo

lakum diinukum waliya diin. you're free to believe whatever you wish, i don't understand why anyone would try so hard to convince you otherwise.

God will judge us all on the day of qiyamah anyway. what you do or do not believe is on your own soul.

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

@goldPseudo la hawla wa la quwwata illa billah

Ali

9:53 AM

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob I tried conveying Islam to you , as you already knew something about it. By rejecting Islam you are only purchasing hell fire. Innallazina kafaroo min ahlil kitaba fi naree jahannama khalideena feeha. I tried what I could to try to save you as a fellow human being, In the same way I would try to save a person who is committing suicide in front of my eyes. The decision is not just between Islam and Kufr but Heaven and Hell. Still I hope that may Allah guide you to Islam before you die.

Ameen

Daniel

1:40 PM

@Ali I'm sure that your attempting to convince us of Islam is really an altruistic move

But your attempts to justify it based on Judaism are failing because you fail to understand the basics of Judaism

We are not trying to argue with you about which religion is better (or at least I'm not. I don't know about @MoriDoweedhYaAgob)

I'm just pointing out the factual inaccuracies in what you say about Judaism

I have no desire to convince you of Judaism

Thank God you believe in the One True God, and so there is nothing that I feel a need to convince you about

Al Ummat مجاهد

2:16 PM

"He has ordained for you of religion what He enjoined upon Noah and that which We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what We enjoined upon Abraham and Moses and Jesus - to establish the religion and not be divided therein."

Ali

2:55 PM

@Daniel How can you expect me to understand things which are not clear. Judaism is a complex religion with many sects , one of which has a torah of their own(Karaites)

@AlUmmatمجاهد He has ordained for you of religion what He enjoined upon Noah and that which We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what We enjoined upon Abraham and Moses and Jesus - to establish the religion and not be divided therein. Difficult for those who associate others with Allah is that to which you invite them. Allah chooses for Himself whom He wills and guides to Himself whoever turns back [to Him].

Daniel

@Ali They are complicated, but clear enough for someone who dedicates much time to learning

The rules of Judaism are not intended to be understood in a day

Also, calling Karaites simply a sect of Judaism is misleading

They do not follow normative Judaism

Ali

Also there are samaritans

I understand their Karaite Judaism to be a bit more rational then the "fence" attached Judaism

Do you have Karaites on JSE?

Daniel

There are 751 Samaritans in the whole world

Ali

I get a feeling that most of the JSE people are zionists?

Daniel

@Ali I doubt that there are any

Karaite Judaism is considered a corruption of Judaism

@Ali That could be

I don't know

Zionism is a separate thing from Judaism for the most part

Ali

3:02 PM

@Daniel So does Karaite Judaism considers rabbinic to be corrupt

Daniel

it is a secular movement

@Ali Probably

Ali

and they have a stronger reason

Daniel

@Ali According to you and them

But not according to most Jews

Ali

@Daniel May I ask a question regarding conversion to Islam from Judaism?

Daniel

@Ali sure

Ali

3:06 PM

Since majority Judaism considers those who are Muslims to have the salavation with Allah. Then what stops people to embrace Islam when they know they have nothing to loose?

The risk exposure is so high

RE=probability of the event occuring*cost of the event if it occurs

Daniel

@Ali Ok, it's like this: There is no requirement that non-Jews become Jewish. For a non-Jew to be Muslim is a perfectly good thing because it is a monotheistic religion and not idolatry. However, for a Jew, the requirements are more stringent. Jews must accept the authority of the Torah alone, and no additional testament. To do that would be kefira (heresy).

So for a non-Jew, we are glad that they do not worship idols, but a Jew can never give up his status as a Jew, and so he must follow all of the requirements of Jews

Ali

So arent the Jews facing a high RE which can be significantly mitigated if they convert to Islam?>

@Daniel But Rambam said its only epicorus

i.e heresy

not kafir

Daniel

@Ali Ok, that's bad too

Ali

Epicoorus is like a heretic not an apostate

or kefir

Daniel

@Ali But why should a Jew become a heretic?

Ali

3:12 PM

its like any other Jewish sect which do heresy

Daniel

That is a sin

@Ali Like which?

Ali

@Daniel There would be many , but Chabad seems one

Daniel

@Ali If you think that, you have a terrible understanding of Chabad

(or of what is heresy)

Ali

@Daniel Because the Risk Exposure (RE )is infinitesimally high

Daniel

@Ali According to Christians, not accepting Jesus as the Messiah and son of God will result in burning in hell

Ali

3:14 PM

@Daniel Some of them believe the Messiah has come ?

Daniel

Nonetheless we do not believe

Ali

@Daniel They are already disbelivers , Quran explicity calls then Kafirs

Al Ummat مجاهد

@Ali where?

Daniel

@Ali There is a small group of Chabad who believe that the Lubavitcher Rebbe wsa the Messiah. And the question has been raised within Judaism whether those people are heretics, but the majority of teshuvot that have come out say that they are not

Ali

"They are Kafiroon who say Jesus is Allah ..."

Al Ummat مجاهد

3:16 PM

@Ali what Ayah is that?

Daniel

@Ali But what's the difference?

The risk is very high

Just like you say it is if one doesn't accept Islam

And to be clear, there is punishment for violating Jewish laws and becoming a heretic

So if I believe that Judaism is correct, I am not going to guarantee myself punishment by becoming a heretic in order to possibly avoid punishment for not accepting Mohammad as a prophet

Ali

@Daniel The problem is that "Jewish laws" were not canonicized uptil recently(relatively)

Daniel

@Ali Around the same time as the quran...

Ali

@Daniel I know of the punishment , It is to dig a hole and push the heretic in it

Daniel

@Ali I mean punishment after death

Ali

3:19 PM

and the punishment can no longer be given

@Daniel No Rambam says that is enough, as long as you dont commit Idolatry

Daniel

@Ali Where does he say that?

When we die, we are judged on all of our deeds in life: both good and bad

Committing heresy definitely is a heavy burden in the bad category

Furthermore, unlike Christianity, we don't follow the rules simply for our own salvation

we do them out of love for God

we accepted the Torah voluntarily at Sinai

Ali

@Daniel Ya but Allah forgives all sins as per his wills

Daniel

So if the Torah forbids following a new messenger, we don't follow a new messenger

Ali

@Daniel What stops you in following Torah, you DONT REJECT Torah by accepting Islam

rather you ratify the covenant of Sinai

Daniel

@Ali Yes you do. By accepting Islam, you reject the Torah

The Torah says that the covenant is everlasting

Islam is a new covenant

Al Ummat مجاهد

3:23 PM

by accepting you do not reject the Torah, but believe and affirm what came to Musa (peace be upon him)

Ali

Cant Allah have two covenants with two nations?

Daniel

@Ali Sure

@AlUmmatمجاهد You can claim that, but it is not true

(According to Judaism)

I know that Islam teaches that it is an affirmation of the Torah

which is fine

and a totally legitimate claim

However, if you are trying to convince me on my own grounds

Ali

@Daniel So is not the later covenant more biding and it commands to join the biding covenant?

Daniel

that argument does not work

Al Ummat مجاهد

@Daniel " but it is not true" that is not true either, but ok. You have your religion I have mine, and God will judge between us on Yaum Al Qiyamah

Daniel

3:26 PM

@AlUmmatمجاهد Exactly

That's what I just said

Ali

@Daniel Mee to agree on this , that why I bought up "Risk Exposure"

Daniel

@Ali No. How did you come up with that?

Ali

The risks are simply infinitely high if you dont accept the other covenant if it is offered to you

Daniel

@Ali There is risk either way. Either I am sinning according to Islam or I am sinning according to Judaism

Since I am Jewish, I elect to follow the Jewish law and not take the risk according to Judaism

Ali

If you go by tradeoff , Islam is anyways less risky to follow then Judaism.

Daniel

3:28 PM

@Ali I don't choose a religion based on the risks

I choose a religion based on what I believe to be true

But nonetheless, Islam is not less risky to follow if I am already Jewish

Ali

coz in Islam (the other covenant)the Ahle Kitab who don't accept Islam are liable to hellfire

Daniel

If I am Jewish and I follow Islam, I am sinning gravely, but if I follow Judaism, I am not sinning at all

Ali

@Daniel See to be unbiased I have the probabilty factor in the RE equation

Daniel

@Ali Your probability makes no sense

Ali

so even if the probability that islam is true is 0.000000000001% but if it is true the costs tend to infinity(hell)

Daniel

3:31 PM

What do you think the cost is of sinning in Judaism?

Ali

@Daniel You tell me with evidence

hence 0.00000000001% * inf=inf

Being a Jew means a very High Risk exposure

Daniel

@Ali It's essentially the same as Islam

Gehenom

But in any case, a "risk exposure" formula doesn't make sense if there is a punishment with level infinity

I'll take the 0.000000000000000001% risk of hell for the much higher chance of Gan Eden

Ali

@Daniel whats gan eden?

Daniel

Basically heaven

But again, in any case, we do the mitzvahs not out of worry for what our future after death will bring

Ali

Gehenom?

Daniel

3:36 PM

But because we accepted them voluntarily and do them out of love

@Ali Basically hell

Ali

What do you think the cost is of sinning in Judaism?

Daniel

@Daniel that's why we don't really talk much about what happens after death

It's not relevant

We live for our lives, not for what happens after death

Ali

@Daniel Dont you have the concept of eternal life?

This life is of a few hours

the real life is to come

which is eterna;

Daniel

@Ali Yes, but it is not the focus of our observance like it is in Islam or Christianity

@Ali And no, for now that is not the real life

This is the real life

That is the future life

Ali

This is indeed the current life , but if you believe in the scriptures then it does ask us to work for the life to come. Like you would want to secure the future of your Child\carrier?

Daniel

3:42 PM

Jewish eschatology

Jewish eschatology is concerned with events that will happen in the end of days, according to the Hebrew Bible and Jewish thought. This includes the ingathering of the exiled diaspora, the coming of Jewish Messiah, afterlife, and the revival of the dead Tsadikim. Eschatology is the area of theology and philosophy concerned with the final events in the history of the world, the ultimate destiny of humanity, and related concepts. In Judaism, end times are usually called the "end of days" (aḥarit ha-yamim, אחרית הימים), a phrase that appears several times in the Tanakh. The idea of a me...

It says in the first sentence

Judaism concentrates on this world

We don't really know what the world-to-come will be like

so there's no way to discuss it

We can just live good lives now

Ali

@Daniel Where it says in the Torah?

Daniel

@Ali Show me where in the Torah it says that we should focus on heaven?

There are a couple of laws that marked as being very important by promissing "a long life on the land that God gave you"

Ali

@Daniel "focus on heaven" is not the correct term. Life after death is the term

Daniel

Laws like honoring your parents are accompanied not with promises for a place in the world to come

but with a guarantee of a long life

Ali

more Importantly believers will meet Allah in the hereafter

Daniel

3:51 PM

@Ali Listen, all of the religions promise wonderful things for following them

This is not special for Islam

All religions say this

You can't convince me of it based on the fact that Islam says so

Ali

@Daniel No only Islam says it

Daniel

So does Christianity

and so does Judaims

Ali

Christianity of Jesus is Islam

and so is Judaism

Daniel

Ok, but we're talking about risk factors here. Christianity says that if you don't accept Jesus as God, you'll go to hell

punishment = infinity

Ali

But this christianity is kafir already

Daniel

3:54 PM

So what? I thought we're being unbiased here. probability = 0.0000000000001%, cost = inf

risk exposure = infinity

Ali

Ya for the christians they can very well say this

the RE needs to be computed for each religion

Daniel

@Ali Right. So why don't you accept Christianity? The risk of not accepting it is so high

infinity

it doesn't make any sense not to accept it, right?

You can still say Mohammad is a prophet. But you just also have to say Jesus is God

that's all

How can it hurt?

Ali

the RE of both competing religion needs to be computed both are inf

Daniel

@Ali But you can do both!

You can still accept Mohammad as a prophet

believe in the One God

just that it's Jesus

Ali

But if I accept that then the RE still remains high

in both

Daniel

3:59 PM

Why is that?

You've covered your bases

Ali

but this equation gives different values for the <Judaism, islam> pair

Daniel

So you're saying that this argument only applies to Jews and doesn't apply to Christians?

Ali

for the simple reason that Judaism considers only Islam and Bni Noah religion for salavation

Daniel

@Ali That is the most incorrect thing you've said in a while

Do you know what B'nei Noach are?

Ali

i mean bni noah laws 7 laews

So Judaism accepts only two belief systems

Daniel

4:01 PM

@Ali the 7 Noahide laws are the only way for non-Jews to achieve the world to come

Ali

Christianity is out of question

Daniel

But following the 7 noahide laws isn't good enough for someone who is already Jewish

It's only good enough for non-Jews

Ali

ya you are correct , But following Islam is obligatory , not following it means hell

following Islam means you follow 7 laws

Daniel

@Ali And Judaism accepts only 1 belief system. Following the 7 noahide laws means following the Jewish belief system

@Ali That doesn't help me

I'm already Jewish

Ali

Seven Laws of Noah

In Judaism, the Seven Laws of Noah ( Sheva mitzvot B'nei Noach), or the Noahide Laws, are a set of moral imperatives that, according to the Talmud, were given by God as a binding set of laws for the "children of Noah" – that is, all of humankind. According to Judaism, any non-Jew who adheres to these laws is regarded as a righteous gentile, and is assured of a place in the World to Come ( Olam Haba), the final reward of the righteous. Adherents are often called "B'nei Noach" (Children of Noah) or "Noahides," and may sometimes network in Jewish synagogues. The seven laws listed by the Tos...

Daniel

4:04 PM

following the 7 laws does me no good

@Ali I know what the 7 laws are. Why did you link that?

@Daniel other than I am at least following those halachas

Ali

But there is one acceptable religion out of two: Islam , which says that its obligatory to accept It, else hell. So why not upgrade to Islam?

Daniel

but it is insufficient

@Ali I don't understand what you said?

out of the two what?

Ali