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5:44 AM
Example of JLU search not meeting my needs: when I search for 言葉狩り, I get zero results. If I repeat the search with Google, I find this: japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/2080/…
Another example: searching for 赤口 gives results containing 赤 and 口 that are nowhere near each other, such as japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/9700/…
It's fine. I just use Google. I only mention it because someone mentioned search being improved, and it still seems to have roughly the same problems it did before
 
There was quite a bit of room for improvement...
heh... 'are there any issues with sexism in the Japanese language'... where do you even start?
 
@snailplane I find it more effective to start asking a new question, type your search terms into the title or tags, and look at the related questions that pop up.
 
6:00 AM
Oh, thank you, that's not something I'd thought of trying
@jkerian I had some ideas. One was why I searched for 言葉狩り. I have no idea how to answer that question, though
The first thing that popped into my head was, rather than about the language, about kanji
Specifically, how almost all the kanji with 女 in them seem to have negative connotations, like 姦
But that's not really what he was asking... just what came to mind.
 
I actually have both "Women in the Language and Society of Japan : The Linguistic Roots of Bias", and "Womansword : What Japanese Words Say About Women"... but I haven't read either of them yet
 
Oh, interesting. I haven't read those or anything similar, but you've piqued my curiosity
 
The latter looks to be a list of words... not that interesting
the former is more of a history book
 
6:15 AM
hmm... rather tasty... 1 lemon juice + 1 amaretto + 2.5 gin + splash of angostura...
 
Hey folks.
 
Hi!
 
Anyone want to point out glaring errors in the answer I just wrote before I go to bed and get downvoted into oblivion overnight? :P japanese.stackexchange.com/a/11223/3097
 
> Downsteps happen strictly between kana (the linguistics term being "mora"), not in the middle of a kana.
Only phonemically. In reality pitch will be changing continuously.
 
Should that say sentence-level pitch contour rather than accent? (I'm not sure)
 
6:27 AM
@snailplane Probably. I've only seen "pitch accent" referring to words.
 
@Mechanicalsnail The downstep itself always happens between the mora though, does it not?
 
@djahandarie Phonemically, yes.
 
@snailplane Yes that'd likely be more accurate, but I was trying to draw a parallel, I think it may be slightly more confusing if I change words like that... not sure if it's worth the technical accuracy.
 
> When discussing other dialects, sometimes the binary pitch notation, or even more is required to analyze what is going on.
Not in any I've read about.
For the most complex I know of (Kansai-type), it's sufficient to give the accent position (if any) plus initial pitch.
 
I was thinking of the Keihan to be particular, with the tonal stuff -- I've seen that done with non-downstep stuff, but maybe there is a downstep formulation too, not sure.
 
6:31 AM
@Mechanicalsnail That was my understanding, that "pitch accent" is a word-level phenomenon which contributes to the overall "pitch contour" of a sentence
Which is the actual realization of pitch in smooth curves up and down
Does that sound like an accurate summary?
 
@snailplane Technically, with breaks whenever there's a voiceless segment.
 
Maybe I'll just go with "pitch changes" to encompass both things.
 
@Mechanicalsnail Oh, right, I forgot about that.
 
Grr, I dislike how it merged my edits together
 
@djahandarie I think that might be good, because "accent" is a technical term and it might be confusing to use it with a broader-than-usual definition
 
6:35 AM
Yeah, I agree.
 
Confusing the two might also lead someone to believe that you speak Japanese by singing two notes, alternating back and forth :-)
(Well, hopefully not.)
 
@snailplane That's why the binary pitch notation is stupid.
Apart from being redundant.
 
Yeah, I agree it's dumb, but it's used pretty often, felt it pretty necessary to explain in an answer about pitch accents.
Either way, behold, the edit :P japanese.stackexchange.com/posts/11223/revisions
 
Interesting dialect map:
 
That graphic seems like it'd make my answer look 100 times more awesome if I included it, but ultimately it'd be a slightly tangential thing to the concept of pitch accent itself :(
I always have a resistance to including graphics in my answers for some reason, unless they are somehow critical or extremely helpful in explaining what's going on.
 
6:42 AM
It might be worth elaborating very briefly about the existence of other dialects. I'm not sure. The idea that other dialects have very different pitch accents seems important
 
@djahandarie You should probably note that the pitch accent is at the level of the prosodic word, not the lexical word.
Lots more detail in the Wikipedia article.
is a feature of the Japanese language which distinguishes words in most Japanese dialects, though the nature and location of the accent for a given word may vary between dialects. For instance, in standard Tokyo Japanese the word for "now" is , with the accent on the first mora (or equivalently, with a downstep in pitch between the first and second morae), but in the Kansai dialect it is . A final or is often devoiced to or after a downstep and an unvoiced consonant. Descriptions of Japanese pitch accent Scalar pitch In standard Japanese (標準語 hyōjungo), pitch accent has the followin...
 
@Mechanicalsnail Is prosodic really the right term? I'm not a linguist, but that's what I'd use to describe the pitch changes you make for, e.g., the sentence pitch contour. I think pitch accents in Japanese are a little close to tones in tonal languages (of course not that either though, as it's nowhere near that important).
 
You can also make points in brief by referring to other answers, if that's something you want to do. Like for example, this is relevant: japanese.stackexchange.com/a/652/1478
(Not saying you have to stick that in there. I don't mean to make this a "too many cooks" scenario.)
 
@djahandarie Prosodic or phonological word. In Japanese that would include attached particles and probably some auxiliary verbs.
 
@Mechanicalsnail Ah... I was thinking of this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosody_(linguistics)
 
6:48 AM
I like the idea of just saying "attached particles", which happens to include 助動詞 (inflectable particles)
 
I think I'll sleep on it and do a larger edit tomorrow morning.
Night all, thanks for the comments.
 
Ever since Dono's answer defining 助動詞 that way, it's made more sense to me than when I looked it up in my dictionary and it said "auxiliary verb"
Rest well!
 
@snailplane Particles do not inflect, by definition.
 
How about inflectable function words...?
Something other than verbs.
"Verb" to me either implies 動詞 (usually) or 動詞 and 形容詞
助動詞 aren't limited to things that look like those two sets
 
6:57 AM
Bear with me a moment here, I'm on a very old computer and my browser crashes each time you ping me ;-)
Yes and in particular Tsuyoshi Ito's comment, as well
 
@snailplane ない really behaves like an ordinary auxiliary verb.
 
What should I call that class of word in English? It's been on my mind
 
The answer is breaking down the verb's 仮定形 and 命令形 conjugations, treating them as the verb stem plus the auxiliary verb /ar/.
I've seen an analysis like that. The verb stems are noun-like; they could be considered a sub-class of nouns.
It's probably etymologically accurate but I'm not sure it's necessary. It requires more complicated (diachronic) phonological rules to work properly.
You could do the same thing with other verbs; nothing special about ない.
Also, as far as I know the analysis doesn't explain why some verb stems take -i and others -u for their dictionary form. It seems simpler to just treat them as monolithic verbs.
 
7:20 AM
the 'are there issues with sexism in Japanese' is actually a fairly bad question (list question, not terribly specific/problem-oriented, etc)... but I suspect it can be modified into a decent one
 
@Mechanicalsnail Something I'm unclear on... in Tsuyoshi Ito's comment, he says "助動詞 means any conjugatable function words, including those which conjugate like i-adjectives and na-adjectives"
I took this to mean that there ARE 助動詞 which conjugate like 形容動詞
I can't think of one, though.
Is there an obvious example?
(Maybe I should go leave a comment asking.)
 
na-adjectives don't conjugate.
 
Ah, I should have seen that coming.
In the process of learning, I seem to spend an awful lot of time juggling competing systems for describing the language
Sometimes I forget.
 
 
4 hours later…
11:46 AM
I don't think this question is going to close, but I also don't think it can be answered: japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/11206/…
 
 
2 hours later…
1:43 PM
@Mechanicalsnail Sure they do. In classical Japanese, it was -nara, -nari / -ni, -nari, -naru, -nare, -nare. In modern Japanese, it is -daro, -daQ / -de / -ni, -da, -na, -nara. For example, 静かだ is 終止形 and concludes a phrase, while 静かに is 連用形 and describes how something is done, while 静かな(る) is 連体形 and would come before a noun phrase.
 
1:54 PM
Oh, I just realized I do know a couple 助動詞 that look like 形容動詞: そうだ and ようだ
 
2:05 PM
Oh! だ itself... Now I feel silly.
 
2:35 PM
What are the grades called in Japanese for musical education?
級?
 
2:48 PM
Looking on Google for 音楽教育 級 I see some examples, like on Yamaha's website in particular
 
3:09 PM
Can 好き work adverbially?
My grammar is in a mess because I'm trying to construct "I like doing ~ the most"
Oh wait, that isn't adverbial.
 
@Flaw 好き is a 形容動詞, so it has 連用形 好きに. Such as 好きにしろ, used adverbially.
 
I suppose the sentence I'm looking for is "~するのは一番好きです。"
Or should it be ~するのが・・・ ?
 
〜することは?
 
If I want to say "I like playing Fantaisie Impromptu the most" (Piano piece), would it be "弾いている曲の中で、『ファンタシー・アンプロンプチュ』が一番すきです。?
The scope of "liking" seems different. The English sentence likes the action, the Japanese sentence likes the piece.
 
~弾くのが一番好きだ
 
3:23 PM
Ah! Thanks @Dono
I forgot how to use nominalisers
 
Hehe, I should write that down
 
I'm still a long way from fluency. It's like I'm having a grammar slot machine in my head, and I keep pulling the lever until each column lines up and corresponds to a good sentence.
 
Hehe. Unfortunately, I know that feeling :-)
 
3:43 PM
I should write on Lang-8 more. My Japanese still gets lots of corrections
But I'm focusing more on learning vocabulary and grammar, and less on speaking or writing at the moment
I wonder if I should do the opposite.
 
I'd suggest doing more speaking
Because that's my bias. I'm suffering from inability to speak, so that's what I really want to improve.
 
4:11 PM
I'm having another sentence I can't nominalise
"What is it that you are busy with?"
Oh wait, that should simply be 何で忙しい
 
 
4 hours later…
7:56 PM
Hi everyone~
While reading (again), I came across this form of 運ぶ: 運ばして.
Context: A servant said something to his master. (So I don't think it could be anything informal or colloquial.)

I tried looking for the form of ~A + す but I really couldn't find anything...
Ideas? :)
Oh and if you're wondering, the furigana reads はこばして
 
@xTCx I think that's an abbreviated version of the causative (運ばせる -> 運ばす). Seems odd in that context though. Are you sure the speaker isn't reversed?
@xTCx Actually, I think that would be a really good question for the site. Since alot of textbooks skip that form. (or I may have it wrong :)
 
8:20 PM
@jkerian, nope, that's the servant talking :)
The full sentence is : ダンナ様の大事なブドウ酒は、きっちり運ばして頂きませんで!
Now, assuming what you said is true, then there's Keigo grammar for it : causative-te + itadaku, which is just an "extremely humble form" (according to my cheat sheets), which makes sense, but then why would the speaker use a shorten form of the causative form..?
guess i'll post a question later
:D
 
@xTCx Ahh, that makes a bit more sense "I received the being made to X" :)
 
What do you mean by that? is that the meaning of causative-te + itadaku?
By the way, if that is the causative form, where did the して come from?
 
@xTCx Hmm? Causative form, but conjugated into the て form at the phrase-level
to link with the following 頂きます
 
8:35 PM
Oh wait, right, you said that the causative form is 運ばす. It all connects now! thank you ! ^^
 
Incidentally, I have mistyped causative as "causitive" every single time I have typed it in here in this conversation
^including that time
 
 
3 hours later…
11:41 PM
@Dono Wikipedia gives a convincing case that those are just forms of the copula rather than inflections. That is, /na/ and its forms act more like independent words than like the verbal inflectional endings (/i/, /u/, /ru/ and their forms).
 

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