English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

MetaEd

9:00 PM

@Carlo_R. Oooh, dead giveaway there.

Mitch

@RegDwightАΑA you obviously haven't been paying attention.

chat.stackexchange.com/…

user19161

@Carlo_R. I have met many men and women who are both tolerant and intolerant. I say this has nothing to do with a person's sex.

RegDwight АΑA

Mar 15 '11 at 21:53, by Robusto

Grammatical gender, she is stupid.

I know all about gender. One more reason to discuss something else.

user19161

Also, I prefer to use sex and not gender, as the former is physiological and the latter cultural.

Mitch

@JasperLoy I'd have to say that guys tend to be more openly jerks about it.

I'd have to but I won't.

@RegDwightАΑA Yeah, you and your dolphin 'friends'.

RegDwight АΑA

9:02 PM

I'm still waiting for something concrete.

user19161

@Mitch Perhaps, biology does have a role to play.

MetaEd

@RegDwightАΑA I doubt there will be anything.

tchrist

@RegDwightАΑA friend?

RegDwight АΑA

Certainly an order as tall as "acts of terrorism ... often" will have at least one citation to go with it?

MetaEd

@RegDwightАΑA It is probably as well defended as "if she were a woman she would not be".

Mitch

9:04 PM

18 mins ago, by RegDwight АΑA

@Robusto ask the dolphin, duh.

MetaEd

I think what we have here is simply someone who reasons about people almost entirely from prejudicial beliefs. In short, a bigot.

Mitch

@MetaEd there's a certain...I don't know...je ne sais quoi about that

@MetaEd your first sentence is not prejudicial itself, but your appellative is in the derogatory direction.

however accurate it might be.

Carlo_R.

@JasperLoy Ok, I exaggerated - However, I really want to thank you for your friendship. If you want to come to Italy, I will be very happy to accommodate you in my cottage. In this case, send me an email at the address you see in my profile.

MetaEd

At this point I am led to believe that the terrorism charge will be defended by something like: "of course s/he is a terrorist. S/he does not use the word 'gerund' properly".

Carlo_R.

@MattЭллен - I'm with you for the election. Good look.

MetaEd

9:08 PM

@Mitch I stand by it. One thing I strongly believe as a person who values tolerance highly is that one thing you cannot be tolerant of is intolerance. Instead you need to shine light on it.

Matt Эллен

@Carlo_R. Thanks!

Mitch

@MetaEd Oh sure. and sometimes it is bright enough itself.

MetaEd

@Mitch Sometimes, yes.

user19161

@MetaEd I admit I hate intolerance, but I also want to add that sometimes I feel there are users here (I shan't name) who are rather intolerant. Perhaps you have not encountered them in those incidents.

Mitch

@JasperLoy there have been very few. hold on...intolerant in what way? Intolerant of opposing views/facts/opinions or ad hominem intolerance?

Matt Эллен

9:13 PM

Good night y'all. Don't let the man get you down. Unless you like that sort of thing.

user19161

@Mitch For example, X makes nasty comments about Y. Y makes nasty comments about X. But X flags Y and acts as if X has not done anything bad.

cornbread ninja

@MattЭллен oh I do!

Gigili

@MattЭллен Good night!

Mitch

@JasperLoy but they're both intolerant, right? both flaggable right? One is not more than the other.

cornbread ninja

@Carlo_R. there's the door.

user19161

9:17 PM

@Mitch Well, we are all human and get upset and angry. I just feel that though Y realizes that, X does not realize his/her "mistake".

MetaEd

@JasperLoy I think the real measure of a person in that situation is whether they apologize.

Mitch

@JasperLoy Your X and Y, from your other messages, don't seem to be applying in a direction that makes sense.

@MetaEd That would depend first on that person having a clue as to what's going on, minimal competence.

RegDwight АΑA

Can we use XX and XY instead?

user19161

@Mitch By the way I am neither X nor Y, phew! I am Z.

cornbread ninja

@tchrist ♬ Hit the Road, Jack ♬

RegDwight АΑA

9:19 PM

@JasperLoy I am АΑA.

Gigili

@JasperLoy Hey, I AM Z.

cornbread ninja

@RegDwightАΑA my tyre is flat.

Bike or car?

@RegDwightАΑA car.

Then use a bike.

9:21 PM

@RegDwightАΑA nevar!

Mitch

@RegDwightАΑA that won't fit.

RegDwight АΑA

Then walk.

@Mitch that's what...

cornbread ninja

@RegDwightАΑA you should be fired from AAA.

snert.

Mitch

..the dolphin said?

Gigili

@JasperLoy Well, once I echoed a message of mine because no one paid attention and some of those intolerant XXXX flagged it. Even though it's quite normal here, I see echoes everywhere when I am here. Lots and lots of echoes!

RegDwight АΑA

9:22 PM

@cornbreadninja you misspelled АΑA. Geez people, it can't be that hard!

MetaEd

@Mitch Right: and I'm saying an apology is one good way to find that out.

Mitch

@Gigili XXXX is not possible, it's not viable. XXX is OK.

Triple X syndrome

Triple X syndrome is a form of chromosomal variation characterized by the presence of an extra X chromosome in each cell of a human female. The condition always produces females, with an XX pair of chromosomes, as well as an additional chromosome, resulting in the formation of XXX. A mosaic form also occurs where only a percentage of body cell contain XXX while the remainder carry XX. The extent to which an individual is affected by the condition will depend upon the proportion of XXX to XX throughout. The condition is also known as triplo-X, trisomy X, XXX syndrome, and 47,XXX aneuploidy...

RegDwight АΑA

@Mitch XXXX is just two women, duh.

Mitch

@MetaEd I think a forced apology (like any kind of punishment) will either give some cognitive dissonance (oh I said I'm sorry, so it must have been a bad/shameful thing to do, so I'll feel bad if I ever try to do it again) or...

user19161

@mitch What I said about X and Y makes perfect sense to me though, but nvm, let's drop the topic and have ice cream instead.

Mitch

9:25 PM

just makes them resentful and hate the enforcer.

mmm....dropping the topic.

user19161

No we got a whole bunch of mods here, sigh...

Gigili

Pah, @Reg, please edit that silly mistake.

Mitch

@simchona: dude, what's up?

Josh Gitlin

@JasperLoy That's because messages have been flaged...

Peter Tamaroff

What are you guys fighting because?

Josh Gitlin

9:26 PM

Let's try to keep things civil :-)

RegDwight АΑA

@Gigili which now?

user19161

@JoshGitlin Yes I know, today is not the first time I am on SE...

simchona

@Mitch I was pinged.

Gigili

5 mins ago, by Gigili

@JasperLoy Well, once I echoed a message of mine because no one paid attention and some one those intolerant XXXX flagged it. Even though it's quite normal here, I see echoes everywhere when I am here. Lots and lots of echoes!

Alenanno

@simchona Ping!

Josh Gitlin

9:27 PM

@JasperLoy Okay. I was just saying... :-)

Gigili

Some "of".

Mitch

You probably don't want to know.

Gigili

Dankeschönyou.

Peter Tamaroff

A flag shew up on the math.se room.

simchona

@Alenanno Argh! My headphones are loud

44 mins ago, by Carlo_R.

If simchona was elected moderator, I leave ELU. She has often given great example of intolerance. I have seen this directly (I've been subjected to acts of terrorism and a lot of harassment from this one). His strange behavior and crazy, his obsession, is demonstrated by his flag 976. With this ELU will die. I'm making a last ditch attempt to understand these things from the co-founders, so they sent away this person totally insane mind.

Josh Gitlin

9:28 PM

Remember: Flags in chat reach mods and 10K users everywhere on chat

2

Please use chat flags for serious issues only!

Alenanno

@simchona PING! :D By the way, you have my vote.

Mitch

@JoshGitlin someone is upset

simchona

@Carlo_R. I tried to be helpful and provide you with constructive criticism. I'm sorry that you feel that I am "crazy", "obsessed" and so on

Alenanno

@JoshGitlin 'nuff said.

cornbread ninja

@RegDwightАΑA that's what she said.

simchona

9:29 PM

@Carlo_R. Surprise.

Josh Gitlin

@Mitch Do you mean me, or do you mean whoever was flagging messages? (FWIW, I am not upset at all, just making sure things are understood :-)

RegDwight АΑA

@cornbreadninja hey I'm serious. We do not discriminate against Greek or Slavic letters in this chat.

Peter Tamaroff

@simchona But the better people are crazy.

simchona

@JoshGitlin I feel it is a serious issue when someone accuses me of "acts of terrorism"

RegDwight АΑA

Vote for equal rights for all letters! Vote for me! Oh wait...

Peter Tamaroff

9:29 PM

@simchona Against the English language?

Alenanno

@simchona I didn't know you were a female either. XD

But my ability to guess someone's sex in chat sucks.

cornbread ninja

@RegDwightАΑA ._.

simchona

@Alenanno I don't take offense one way or another. I thought the avatar gave it away

Mitch

@JoshGitlin no not you at all. if you look at the (most likely) flagged messages, they're kinda strong but ... I voted 'not sure' on the flag.

Josh Gitlin

@simchona Okay, and that's fine, if you feel the message was seriously offensive, you were right to flag it. Personally, I wasn't sure what was going on, so I decided to come in here to see what was up

@Mitch Agreed, I wasn't sure too. Which is why I am here now :-)

Alenanno

9:31 PM

@simchona Nah, the avatar doesn't give it away.

Josh Gitlin

Can I help as a mediator @simchona?

MetaEd

@Mitch Oh, no, I'm not talking about a forced apology. I am saying you can tell a lot about a person's character when they make a mistake in the heat of the moment but then apologize for it.

simchona

@JoshGitlin I felt seriously offended considering I have tried to provide this user constructive criticism, but come back to ELU being called a terrorist

user19161

@simchona Guys like kittens too you know.

Alenanno

@simchona But for me, it's not a problem at all, in case it wasn't clear. :P

Josh Gitlin

9:31 PM

@simchona Can you link me to the message again please?

simchona

@JoshGitlin If you're available in a few minutes, I'd like some time to cool down. It was a bit...surprising coming into that

Mitch

@JoshGitlin actually...now that some things have been said, that longer item is particularly offensive, it' s just not using derogatory or scatalogical terms, just ones that are way too strong.

simchona

48 mins ago, by Carlo_R.

If simchona was elected moderator, I leave ELU. She has often given great example of intolerance. I have seen this directly (I've been subjected to acts of terrorism and a lot of harassment from this one). His strange behavior and crazy, his obsession, is demonstrated by his flag 976. With this ELU will die. I'm making a last ditch attempt to understand these things from the co-founders, so they sent away this person totally insane mind.

Josh Gitlin

@simchona That sounds like a great idea. I'll be available.

simchona

@JoshGitlin Thank you

Gigili

9:32 PM

@simchona What the hell? My avatar is the clearest, yet they refer to me as "he".

user19161

@simchona We have our own mods here anytime as well.

simchona

@JasperLoy I know, but an outside mod might be best in this case

RegDwight АΑA

We had two mods in here when that got posted. While I understand what it feels like to be on the receiving end of that nonsense, you have to shrug it off as just that, nonsense.

2

It might come in handy at a later point, too.

simchona

@RegDwightАΑA Handy?

RegDwight АΑA

Useful.

simchona

9:34 PM

I meant "how", not "what"

RegDwight АΑA

Because I, unlike Carlo, like to have supporting evidence at hand at all times.

And if I were you I might consider it even more important.

People told me to go fuck myself in this very room. We are very good friends now. And no, not with benefits.

simchona

@RegDwightАΑA Important for the election?

Or for my own benefit

Sorry, still a bit confused/flustered

RegDwight АΑA

Important for anything, really.

MetaEd

@simchona I followed up with Carlo on this point and he was very clear he means you perpetrated violence.

simchona

@MetaEd I'll be happy to discuss with a mediator when he's unfrozen

user19161

9:38 PM

@RegDwightАΑA That's what I do every day. :-)

RegDwight АΑA

@JasperLoy next thing you tell me you must poop again.

Alenanno

@simchona So you think kittens are only for women eh? :P

user19161

@RegDwightАΑA No, I have cleared earlier on. :-)

Alenanno

lol

simchona

@Alenanno I have since been corrected

Alenanno

9:40 PM

@simchona I saw that...

user19161

@Alenanno Are you loling over the kitten or the poop?

Alenanno

@JasperLoy poop lol

RegDwight АΑA

I will use this change of subject as an excuse to watch more Dexter.

Latorz.

MetaEd

@Gigili And many people make prejudgments just based on the person's sex. Sometimes I think it should always be hidden so people cannot make those judgments. Do you know the story of how symphonies started hiring more women as musicians?

Alenanno

@RegDwightАΑA Not bad...

user19161

9:41 PM

@MetaEd Just because there were fewer females?

Alenanno

@RegDwightАΑA But I prefer The Mentalist. :P

Gigili

CU

MetaEd

@JasperLoy Men were hired overwhelmingly until the practice of blind auditions began. It seems that men and women sound equally good when you do not already know their sex. But if you know their sex, the men sound better than the women.

Josh Gitlin

sorry @simchona I had to handle a work issue. If I can help in any way, please just ask

cornbread ninja

Later, wise owl

Mitch

9:42 PM

@MetaEd yeah cuz their hawt

cornbread ninja

@Mitch mmm hawt mens

user19161

@MetaEd Ah I see. Maybe the same applies to our answers. High rep users get even more reo.

Alenanno

@MetaEd I do prefer men choirs though.

simchona

@JoshGitlin I'm still at work as well--it looks like Carlo left chat, so might I ping you when he returns?

Mitch

wow, it's a party.

user19161

9:43 PM

@Mitch Er,...

Josh Gitlin

@simchona Sure. If I am around I will be glad to help.

simchona

@JoshGitlin Thank you

user19161

@Mitch I remember you said you rolled up your sleeves.

simchona

@MetaEd I'm not sure what to think about that right now

Mitch

@JasperLoy you have better memory than I do then.

MetaEd

9:44 PM

osborne-conant.org/posts/blind.htm

user19161

@Mitch I am sure you recall that in this case.

Mitch

link?

Gigili

@MetaEd Umm, painfully true. When I made it clear, it did me more harm than good.

MetaEd

@simchona It's simple, in my mind. People have many unconscious prejudices. I think one of the best things anyone can do is do away with these prejudices. But it is hard.

Gigili

@MetaEd What the hell? Why?

Mitch

9:46 PM

They don't actually sound better, they were just voted as better.

Alenanno

@simchona I don't know if it was clear, but when I talked about thinking you were a man, I didn't mean it in some offensive way. It happened in the past. Sometimes I cannot guess the other's sex. :)

MetaEd

For example in the US we desperately need to hire a woman President.

simchona

@Alenanno I never took it to be offensive. Don't worry :]

Alenanno

@MetaEd Not just a woman because it's a woman. But a person with common sense, regardless of the sex.

@simchona Oh good! :)

@simchona (I still want the cake you promised in your nomination.)

simchona

@Alenanno Let them eat cake!

Robusto

9:47 PM

@MetaEd There are women Presidents for hire? I thought they had to be elected.

MetaEd

@Alenanno I would say hire a person with the necessary qualifications, yes, but I consider being a woman to be a strong qualification because a woman President will tend to uplift all women in the US and make the US a better place.

Alenanno

@simchona Is that some expression? I don't get it. eheh

Robusto

@MetaEd Sara Palin? Michelle Bachmann?

MetaEd

@Alenanno So yes, a person with common sense. But I would vote with deliberate regard for the sex.

cornbread ninja

@Robusto cries

MetaEd

9:48 PM

@Robusto I gave up Republicans for Lent. Can I lend you one?

Robusto

@MetaEd Pass.

MetaEd

I also considered Obama's racial and cultural background a very important qualification for office. The last election was great for me, actually. We had a choice between a racial minority and a woman!

@Gigili Why what?

Mitch

@JasperLoy I searched for it. That was just throw away silliness. it's not a thing.

Gigili

Why if you know their sex, the men sound better than the women.

user19161

@Mitch OK!

MetaEd

9:51 PM

@Gigili Because the judges are bigots.

Alenanno

@MetaEd I don't know... I am aware of the importance of the fact that Obama was afro-american. But it shouldn't be the only thing to consider (regardless of Obama in this discussion).

MetaEd

@Alenanno No, of course not the only thing. Not even the only important thing. But an important thing.

Alenanno

@MetaEd There I agree.

Gigili

@MetaEd Oh, that makes ... sense.

MetaEd

There is a strong factor in peoples' decision making called unconscious bias. There is even a well known test for it: the Implicit Association Test.

implicit.harvard.edu/implicit

Mitch

9:53 PM

@Gigili because the judges are looking at them play and they are prejudicial thinking biasedly that men are better players. but when they don't have access to that bias, by hearing tryouts without seeing the person playing or knowing their sex, then womena nd men were chosen judged about the same.

Alenanno

I'll go offline now... Bye everyone! Who likes me and who doesn't. :P

Mitch

why? cuz people are jerks. (dudes in this example)

cornbread ninja

bye @Alenanno!

MetaEd

@Mitch Also, some of the judges are flat out against women in their orchestra, even if they play better. They want some kind of sexual solidarity. And often a racial solidarity too.

Mitch

people like people who are like themselves.

MetaEd

9:56 PM

The link I posted above, if you go to the Harvard site you can test yourself to find out if you have an implicit bias against "black people" --- do you unconsciously associate them with negative ideas such as "dangerous" or "dishonest" or "lazy".

user19161

@Mitch Very true. That is why a flawed system is hard to change as bad people elect bad people to succeed them.

simchona

I think I'm finally calming down

MetaEd

It turns out that a lot of people, even a lot of black people, have that association and fail the test.

Gigili

@Mitch Umm, I thought it has some reasons.

MetaEd

Wow. Two rows of people in the room.

Election Day + insanity = everybody turns out.

simchona

10:00 PM

@JasperLoy While I understand letting someone express himself, sometimes vitriol doesn't need to be heard so loudly

user19161

@simchona Yes.

simchona

@JasperLoy However, I do want to know why he said what he did.

Gigili

@KitFox: Umm, so you didn't like my semi-dialog?

MetaEd

@simchona I thought he admitted he lied:

57 mins ago, by Carlo_R.

@JasperLoy Ok, I exaggerated - However, I really want to thank you for your friendship. If you want to come to Italy, I will be very happy to accommodate you in my cottage. In this case, send me an email at the address you see in my profile.

simchona

@MetaEd I'm not sure what he was admitting to exaggerating, but to me that was a very strong assertion

Grace Note

10:08 PM

By the by, everyone vote in the primaries yet?

2

tchrist

@GraceNote Early and often.

user19161

@GraceNote Yes, I have.

Josh Gitlin

Hey @simchona I need to go get something to eat. But if you need help, feel free to ping any other mod. Or if it's not urgent, feel free to @Josh me and I will respond when I return. (I'll be in the room but AFK)

And my $0.02: Remember there's a lot of people saying a lot of things you don't like on the internet. Enjoy the things you like and ignore anything else :-)

3

(Totally not judging you, just saying that from my personal experience, getting too upset over things people say on the internet just leads to pain 99.9% of the time. I always find pretending you didn't hear it to be a better alternative :-)

Anyway best of luck, I will return later.

Michael

hello

My first time inhere, everything okay? :D

user19161

@Michael Yes. Did you come to ask about anything?

Michael

10:20 PM

yes, yes - of course!

user19161

So ask!

Michael

I just read through some applications here ( english.stackexchange.com/election ) and I have got 2 questions to the KitFox's application. (Sorry I don't know how to link the particular post).

simchona

@JoshGitlin Wise words.

Michael

According to this: "I would be glad to moderate if the community will have me. I look good in blue." What does "will have me" mean? What does "I look good in blue" mean

simchona

I think I'll try to let this go

tchrist

10:23 PM

'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?'
'The names of all the stars, and of all living things, and the whole history of Middle-earth and Over-heaven and of the Sundering Seas,' laughed Pippin.

user19161

@Michael A mod has a blue username in chat. And "will have me" means "will have me as a mod".

Michael

I think the "look good in blue" thing is a joke as he "assumes" to have to wear suits as a moderator. :)

aah, that's the reason for blue - okay!

user19161

@tchrist What?

tchrist

@JasperLoy “May I ask a question, O Wizard?”

Michael

anyone of you familiar with (##English) @ freenode?

RegDwight АΑA

10:35 PM

@MetaEd well I be damned. Got rather strange results.

Asians came in second.

MetaEd

@RegDwightАΑA What happened.

RegDwight АΑA

I blame that on their short names.

I couldn't really tell the faces from one another. I went by the names.

Of course it's easier to recognize Lee faster than, what have you, Smithsonian. (See, I even remember the Asian names they used, but not the European ones.)

But all four races were extremely close together on the results scale, so wevs.

I actually feared I would be subconsciously uneasy with blacks. In fact, I plain stated that in the corresponding questions.

I spent half my life in a country where there are almost no people of African descent, and the other half in a country where there is not a single one.

And of course everyone is most comfortable with what he's used to.

user19161

@RegDwightАΑA I know we are influenced by our subconscious to a great extent, so I usually try to look at things from the bottom up, whatever that means to avoid making common faulty conclusions.

MetaEd

@RegDwightАΑA I don't think it's so much being comfortable with what you're used to. I think our community teaches us certain associations. Where I live, there are lots of different races, and negative associations with blacks are common.

RegDwight АΑA

Yeah I'm reading their accompanying materials right now.

MetaEd

10:49 PM

So I am not so surprised by your result as I would be if you lived in such a mixed race place with those negative associations all around you.

RegDwight АΑA

> It is obvious that children are not born with preferences for one group or another. But early in development, infants appear to develop preferences for what is familiar such as their mother's voice, female faces (if their primary caregiver is female), and members of their race/ethnic group. It would appear that children are born with a mechanism to develop preferences rapidly, even though the specific things they come to prefer are a function of their environment.

The most crucial part is, of course, the unwilling-unable distinction.

user19161

@MetaEd From the day we are born the people around us have been feeding us with their own perceptions of the world. It is up to us to unlearn and relearn things later on of course.

MetaEd

@JasperLoy yes

RegDwight АΑA

I was totally prepared to see that I had some biases I was unwilling to admit to, but somehow I totally forgot about biases I might be unable to be so much as aware of.

> The unwilling-unable distinction is like the difference between hiding something from others versus something being hidden from you.

Right on. Hidden from me.

Oh, and they do advise to take the test several times before drawing conclusions. I absolutely plan on doing just that.

MetaEd

I read an interesting story about one of the Harvard researchers. He was trying, and failing, to pass his own test of black bias. Which goes to show it's a pretty hard test to foil. But one day he was exposed to some kind of article or TV program about black heroes, and he suddenly passed the test.

RegDwight АΑA

10:52 PM

Yeah. That's what they recommend.

> it is very possible to possess an automatic preference that you would rather not have (the researchers who developed this test fall into this category)

MetaEd

Which is why I think it's so important that we create black heroes, woman heroes, and so on. Why I think it's important to have a black President, and a woman President.

RegDwight АΑA

> One solution is to seek experiences that could undo or reverse the patterns of experience that could have created the unwanted preference. This could mean reading and seeing material that opposes the implicit preference. It could mean interacting with people that provide experiences that can counter your preference.

Anyhoo. I have that episode on hold, gotta resume.

Was just checking back if everything was in order.

Lators.

tchrist

@MetaEd This is more of a devil’s advocate question than anything else, because I pretty much agree with you, but doesn’t that suggest that we should also have Muslim heroes, Jewish heroes, Mormon heroes, gay heroes, lesbian heroes, transexual heroes? What about impoverished heroes or mentally-challenged ones?

MetaEd

@tchrist To the extent that there is unconscious bias to overcome, yes. Also add atheist heroes.

Gigili

11:11 PM

@tchrist I think you should edit the post again.

tchrist

Too late to edit, sorry.

Hm, that was a test to see whether I still could. Safari coredumped on me.

MetaEd

Try to edit a post after the deadline and Safari will get medieval on you.

makes mental note

Gigili