The Whiteboard

1:50 PM

SO have some mod flags suggestion prog might want:

16

Q: Should you start coding whilst young?

I was talking to a younger cousin and he expressed a desire to start programming. I was unsure what to tell him, as I started when I was very young on a BASIC computer. He's over 18, and I always feel that people who are meant to program start young or have an interest from a very early age. I t...

career-development

I'd welcome opinions before I force it upon y'all

C. Ross

sigh

Walter

@MarcGravell That would probably stay closed on PSE as well

Marc Gravell

fine - I'll leave it

C. Ross

I don't understand why that alone is criteria not to move it, but again, categorization mania

Marc Gravell

wait... so do you want me to move it and close it? that can be done...

Walter

1:56 PM

That question fails most of the guidelines for the site. why migrate a question to another site if it doesn't add value?

Marc Gravell

that is kinda why I was asking - you are more familiar with the specifics of PSE

Walter

i would close it on SO (which it is) and a lot of Jeff's advice for situations like this is to delete it

Marc Gravell

indeed; I was very tempted to delete it. SO isn't going to miss it

Walter

can't say that's what he would say for this particular quesiton. but that's been the answer a lot for questions that don't belong on either site

Marc Gravell

I do like this though ;p

34

Q: Please stop using Programmers.SE as your toilet bowl

Stack Overflow users have been using the "off topic - belongs on Programmers.SE" close reason as an alternative to all the other close reasons. It'd be helpful if people actually read the FAQ and the guidelines for six subjective questions before voting to migrate questions like: What's your fa...

discussion off-topic programmers-se

well put

Walter

2:01 PM

That pretty much sums it up

I do appreciate you asking about migrating questions. We've gone through a ton of migrated questions on our side that had to be closed

C. Ross

if it's going to be deleted I agree, but if it's going to sit somewhere closed and locked, I'd rather it be on the more appropriate site

Anna Lear

Didn't we already have a few "am I too old to start coding" type questions? This seems similar.

Walter

Good point. that sounds very familiar

Pierre 303

2:48 PM

@Walter: why no running for moderator elections?

Walter

Life is too busy. I only agreed to be a temp mod because... 1. they asked nicely :) and 2. it was only until elections could be held

Pierre 303

@Walter: too few candidates. It's depressing.

user2334

It'd be helpful if people used their powers to vote to close instead of/in addition to flagging a bad question. Tell your 3,000+ rep friends!

Anna Lear

@Pierre303 I expected to see more candidates, too. You should throw your name in, too. :)

Jon Hopkins

@Pierre303 You could always rethink your decision not to run yourself...

@AnnaLear I asked where his nomination was too but sadly it's an active decision not to stand rather than having just not got round to it...

user2334

2:54 PM

@Pierre303 It's easy to sit on the sidelines and let others make the tough choices, but we need our active members taking a more active role in how the site is run. You should reconsider and nominate yourself.

Anna Lear

@MarkTrapp At the same time, it's better to have someone not run than end up with a reluctant mod.

Pierre 303

@Mark: I act as a moderator already thanks to my 10k. The way that I see this community is at odds with the role of moderator as proposed. And the rules in place which do not completely agree with.

ouch, when I reread my sentence, it hurts.

Jon Hopkins

@Pierre - Are you disagreements that great? You already manage to play a fantastic role on the site with those rules in place, would they really prevent you being an equally good moderator?

user2334

@Pierre303 That's one way to see it. But it's an odd thing to complain about a lack of nominations when you yourself haven't stepped up.

user2334

If you want to take an active interest in how the site is run, get involved!

Pierre 303

2:59 PM

Mark: let's face it, I don't like the way some questions are closed. When someone comes here to ask for help, closing his questions is very hard

C. Ross

@Pierre303 A site without boundaries is ... well, 4chan

Pierre 303

@Jon: Yes I accept the rules. I try to discuss them often. For exemple in my questions that are often bordeline. How to be a good moderator with that history ?

Jon Hopkins

@Pierre - Surely better to have moderators who understand the issues and struggle with them first hand rather than someone who looks at the rules unquestioningly?

Pierre 303

@C. Ross: I agree, I don't want to remove boundaries. I would like to push them a little bit more that's it. I think that we should try to help any programmer that needs for help. I'm very sensible to that distress, so when I see someone literally kicked out, it hurts me.

Jon Hopkins

Surely the point of this site is that we're all learning, the moderators included. The day we get mods who think they have all the answers we're in trouble. I'd rather have smart committed mods who are aware they're fallible and are open to things changing and can make intelligent decisions when called upon.

As a moderator you could give people the leeway to see if things do work out. I'm not saying ignore the FAQ but there is plenty of scope for interpretation, taking an edit before close approach and so on,.

Pierre 303

3:06 PM

I can do that without being a moderator. I think most of the question I posed on META were very unpopular because they questionned the system in place. That single fact prove I should not represent the authority in place. It would be hypocric don't you think?

user2334

@Pierre303 They added metrics to each nomination on people's participation on meta: I'm almost certain the reason why only 4 people responded to your question is because most of the nominees don't ever visit the meta to begin with.

Jon Hopkins

@Pierre303 - I don't think there's anything wrong with questioning things, so long as you're not unilaterally changing rules yourself. I think a lot of people will respect the mods more if they don't think they're blindly obeying the rules.

At least one candidate is running on a platform of anything goes within reason, I don't see you being any more extreme than that.

Pierre 303

@Mark: yes very true... @Jon: good point

Dan McGrath: why did you remove yourself ?

Jon Hopkins

You do make a good point about the difference between being 10k+ and being a moderator. There is a case that it's just more grief for little more real influence.

Pierre 303

3:22 PM

What are the differences Mark? What extra tools you have?

Walter

For one we see all the questions that are flagged for moderator attention

there's usually a bunch to address each day

user2334

@JonHopkins I think that's a common misconception about being a high rep user/moderator. It's really not about influence, but about paying it forward and pitching in to keep the site on track. Moderators and high rep users have no more influence about what's allowed on the site and what isn't than a user who registered today

Anna Lear

@MarkTrapp That's a good point. We all play by the overall SE rules at the end of the day.

Jon Hopkins

@MarkTrapp - But isn't that what the 10k users are / should be doing?

user2334

@Pierre303 Perhaps the most important feature I've found so far is that you're no longer acting in a bubble. You have direct access to others in the same position with the same goals in trying to maintain the site. I can understand how the problems Gaming.SE faces relate to the problems Programmers.SE faces, for example

Walter

3:27 PM

@MarkTrapp Excellent point. That's what I found to be the most useful

user2334

@JonHopkins Yes. You brought up "real influence", which isn't a big part of moderating/10king

Pierre 303

Don't you think 3 moderators is not enough ? Today Chris, Walter and you are very active. Is it enough?

Pemdas

@peirre along those lines, what happens if a mod becomes in active? Can the be replaced easily?

user2334

@Pierre303 three domain-specific moderators seems to work just fine: at any time I'm active, either Walter or ChrisF is active. And a lot of issues that require a second look aren't Programmers.SE specific, so I can run it by other moderators

user2334

@Pemdas Yes. Super User has run through about a half dozen IIRC

Pemdas

3:30 PM

do you go through elections again, or someone just get appointed?

or does

user2334

next one in line

Pemdas

so we keep back ups?

user2334

Yeah: there's going to be a 4th place, 5th place, etc. finisher in the election. They'd likely be the first alternates

Walter

That's part of why Mark and I were asked to be temp mods, some of the existing mods were running into time issues and couldn't be as active as was needed

Jon Hopkins

@MarkTrapp - That's slightly terrifying given the number of candidates at the moment. Someone could end up moderator by default.

user2334

3:36 PM

@JonHopkins well, to put it into perspective, we have more nominees than Super User or Server Fault. Stack Overflow is the only site that gets a plethora of nominees.

user2334

Actually, we tie Super User

Jon Hopkins

And we've got 10 which is more than I'd thought.

user2334

CSTheory.SE only has 3 (for 3 slots), GameDev.SE has 5 for 3 slots

user2334

We have 11

Jon Hopkins

OK, so people are unlikely to get anything by default.

user2334

3:40 PM

No. Well, someone will be the unlucky person who winds up being the only person not to make it past the primaries.

Pierre 303

Jon: yes that's worrying.

Pemdas

why?

never mind...I thought the fact that 1 person would not make it past the primaries was worrying...now i see that is not what you meant.

Pierre 303

what is worrying is the number of candidates.

I mean, good candidates. There is already great ones, more than the 3 available seats

Pemdas

maybe that it why there are not more candidates. All of you in chat right now have a pretty well known presence on the site. I don't see much of chance for anyone else. That might discourage people a little.

Jon Hopkins

@Pemdas - I'm not sure that many of the people in here are running. Walter isn't, Pierre isn't, I'm not.

Anna Lear

3:52 PM

@Pemdas I think there's a correlation between not being well-known (for lack of a better term) and low levels of contributing in a moderator-like capacity.

Pemdas

ok..., but you Anna, Mark, Pierre, ChrisF, Josh K, Ryan Hayes...6 "great" candidates for 3 positions

@anna, some of it is just how long you have been around though. The site is only 4 months old...that not a lot of time for "newer" people to make a name for themselves>

Anna Lear

It's not too hard to get noticed on SE sites, especially smaller-than-SO ones. Answer stuff (preferably well), comment, come back often. I don't think having more "famous" users would increase the number of candidates.

Pemdas

if we were old then I would probably agree with you.

older

Anna Lear

@Pemdas That's fair. My impression of my own involvement is that it is relatively recent (beyond just idly checking in and answering a question now and then), but I don't recall the last 4 months that well, so it's probably wrong. :)

Pierre 303

Anna you are too humble

Brant

4:03 PM

You don't get to #4 on the user list just by idly checking in and answering a question now and then. :)

Anna Lear

@Brant I'm honestly still not sure how that happened exactly. :) I've definitely been more active in the last couple months than at the beginning, though.

Pierre 303

Anna: I've been watching you for a while, and you are one of the most consistant user. This is a great quality.

Anna Lear

@Pierre303 Thanks. :)

Adam Crossland

Consistency is the most desirable trait for a moderator.

I'm surprised at the angst over the number of candidates for moderator. If there were many more than there are, I'd be concerned that some of the candidates were taking the commitment and responsibility too lightly.

I'm quite pleased with the slate.

Walter

@AnnaLear I can tell you how it happened... we all upvoted your answers. no magic there. :)

Anna Lear

4:19 PM

@Walter Mystery solved. =)

Walter

The real magic was in the number of really good answers :)

Pemdas

so...pierre...you have been stalking anna? ;)

Josh K

Room got busy, should Have checked in earlier.

Pemdas

this is first time that I have ever see it active at all

Pierre 303

Josh: pretty rare isn't ?

@Pemdas: I'm a gentlemen

Pemdas

4:27 PM

lol

Josh K

@Pierre303: I think any major chat room activity is rare.

At least they are never active when I check in

Though I am spending less time refreshing pages now that I added all my tuned RSS feeds

Pemdas

nice...i need to that

to do

Anna Lear

I think all that'll do for me is make me refresh Google Reader instead. :)

Josh K

@AnnaLear I have NewsFire sitting on my desktop so it's a bit more out of the way

And targeting tags is much better then the general feed.

Pemdas

How often do we reelect mods?

Josh K

4:33 PM

@Pemdas Every year?

I'm not quite sure

Walter

pretty sure its once a year on the trilogy sites. obviously the SE sites aren't that old yet

but i'm sure they'll follow the same schedule

Pemdas

Ok...so what privileges does a moderator have that a 10k user does not?

C. Ross

@Pemdas Edit everything, and all your actions are binding

Josh K

@Pemdas: Higher voting on closes, access to flags, and "moderator tools" which I'm not sure what else.

C. Ross

plus you can view more personal information

Walter

4:39 PM

You have access to the moderators chat room for all SE mods.

There are a lot of tools that most users don't know exist. I didn't anyway...

Pemdas

tools that not accessible once you reach 10k?

C. Ross

yes

Josh K

Yes

10k is really about the "tools" section where you can view questions that have pending close votes / delete votes

Anna Lear

10k tools are okay, but nothing really mindblowing. Mostly just statistics for highest/lowest voted questions and answers and such.

Josh K

As well as some nice extra information like recent edits and voting frequency

Agreed with @AnnaLear, they aren't amazing.

Even viewing flags is very watered down unfortunately

For example, if you flag something as spam or offensive I see it, but anything else (mod. atten) I can't.

Pemdas

4:43 PM

Can current mods vote? It seems like that have an unfair advantage in the information department.

vote in the elections I mean

Walter

Yes, we vote

Anna Lear

@JoshK Can't dismiss flags either. Can only see that they're there.

Walter

@Pemdas why would it be unfair?

Josh K

@AnnaLear: Can mods dismiss flags?

Anna Lear

@JoshK I think so? Walter can say for sure.

C. Ross

4:45 PM

@JoshK yes

Josh K

I thought they just "fell off" if they didn't get 6

C. Ross

they age off as well, but you can dismiss them

Pemdas

maybe not unfair, but you can definitely get a better idea of candidates activities and perhaps promote people based on information other users don't have

user2334

@Pemdas it's no different than incumbency in other elections. The incumbent always has an advantage due to inertia

Walter

@Pemdas I'll tell you how I'm evaluating the candidates. I go into their profile (same as what you have access to) and I go through all of their activity to see answers but mostly comments

user2334

4:47 PM

But it's not like moderator votes count more or anything

Pemdas

fair enough

Josh K

@CRoss Interesting, I didn't know that.

@Walter: Can just mods go through that?

Have access to the activity tab I mean

Walter

nope, everyone should have access to that

Josh K

That's what I thought.

Walter

someone can correct me if i'm wrong

Josh K

4:50 PM

Well I can view it, could be a 10k thing but I doubt it

C. Ross

my activity page

has anyone else looked at Yi Jiang's election research tool?

Josh K

I have

Very interesting

And well done too I might add

I especially like the filtering and ordering ability

The only thing I would like to see added would be a table like comparison of the candidates

C. Ross

37

A: Moderator nomination possibly useful statistics

Ah right, the page Benjol was talking about in the comments is about finished. It pulls in a pretty impressive amount of information by using an obscene amount of API calls to the Stack Overflow API. It's all client-side, so please do not set it to auto-refresh every minute, or else it will eat t...

Pierre 303

Yi Jiang work is amazing. It changed how I viewed a couple of candidates.

C. Ross

it's even more important on SO b/c of the TON of nominees

C. Ross

5:16 PM

anyone else notice a surge of questions about SMS lately?

Pemdas

on SO or PES

?

i notice a constant surge of "what programing language should I learn"

Adam Crossland

A constant surge?

Pemdas

lol...yeah I suppose that language doesn't make sense.

I just feel like it is ever 5th question asked

every

Adam Crossland

That topic does seem to arise quite often, and why shouldn't it? Perhaps it is simply my subjective perception, but it seems to me that new language are popping up all of the time.

How many languages are now running on the JVM? It seems to be the toy/personal language platform of choice these days.

And there's never a reasonable answer to that question.

Walter

That's why it was recently added to the FAQ as a type of question that's off topic

Pemdas

5:30 PM

I wish there was a better way to encourage checking the FAQ before posting questions.

Adam Crossland

I'm sure that someone around here can code up a few quick RegEx's to identify questions that might be FAQ-worthy.

ooops..forgot the <sarcasm> tags.

Josh K

5:43 PM

Arg. I ran out of votes yesterday at some point and it told me to come back in 23 hours.

Six to go.

Adam Crossland

Josh...close votes?

Josh K

@Adam No, up / down votes

I run out of close votes less often

Flags are more common

Adam Crossland

I didn't even realize that there was a limit on up/down votes. Feeling sheepish now.

Josh K

Lol. I think it's 35 a day

But it could be lower.

Unfortunately those don't scale with rep like other votes.

Adam Crossland

35 seems like a reasonable amount, especially given that it is probably there largely to limit irresponsible, careless or cheating behavior. Is that number shared across all of the SE sites?

Anna Lear

5:56 PM

No, it's per-site.

I run out pretty often. A lot of question turn up many answers worthy of an upvote.

Josh K

@AdamCrossland It's per-site, so I can vote on SO / SU / etc, even M.P.SE but not the main site.

Dan McGrath

6:42 PM

Good morning all. First time I've ever woke up and I couldn't scroll back to the last messages I saw before bed. :)

Anna Lear

Morning Dan. :)

Dan McGrath

@Pierre303m I withdraw because I felt there was more than 3 other nominees who I would vote above myself.

s/303m/303/

Pemdas

lol...i just made a comment about the phenomena earlier today

that

Dan McGrath

Am I the only one who isn't thinks of a rifle every time I see @Pierre303's name (even though I know that's not why he put 303)

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