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12:03 AM
cya everyone for now/ bbl
 
bye
 
12:33 AM
crickets
 
 
14 hours later…
2:38 PM
14 hours stale
 
Morning Josh
 
boo
 
Morning to you too
Bagel?
 
coffee
 
Gross
 
2:40 PM
+1 coffee
Ahhhh, the sound of mostly monosyllabic eloquence of developers in the morning. :)
Well, duosyllabic, as I re-read it, but that doesn't have quite the same ring to it.
 
Certainly not.
The weather here is crap, still waiting for another developer to come in before I break down and start working.
 
Been a rough few weather days here too.
 
more than one word is hard to type when my fingers are still frozen ;)
 
hunt & peck ;)
 
I waited almost an hour on the platform at 11:30 last night for a train
My brain is defrosting
 
2:45 PM
blasphemy
 
Buses were all screwy here yesterday, but they all ran late in such a way that I still made it home on time. I'm using up good bus karma at an alarming rate this winter.
 
2:58 PM
its been pouring snow all morning here but atleast it's above 0 (F)
 
did some one say coffee?
 
@AdamCrossland No, there was no mention of vile brown liquid here
 
What foolishness. Coffee is the Black Blood of Life. Through it all things flow.
 
i mentioned coffee...josh is coffee hater
is a
 
His loss. Also vaguely ironic for someone who's principally a Java guy if memory serves. If memory doesn't serve it's because I haven't had enough coffee yet. I'll go work on that.
 
3:08 PM
wow +1 for nerd pun
 
I'm ashamed.
 
Java and PHP
 
it is ok...this is a "safe" place
 
It's a beautiful pair
And yes, woefully ironic considering the choice of languages.
 
3:23 PM
Hello fellow programmers
how areth thou on this day?
how does one find a job without having a degree?
I have found in the past that this can be very hard
 
By getting a lot of practice developing applications to make up for the lack of formal education.
 
unless you have quite some years of experience
 
@Tony By being very good
At least I found that worked well for me.
 
Picking up a few classes on the side might be helpful. You can also start out as a freelancer and find clients who would look more at what you can do for them rather than what paper you have.
 
Tony, do you not have a degree at all or just no CS degree?
 
3:26 PM
That said, I have a math degree in CS, so it's hard for me to speak from personal experience there.
 
@AdamCrossland I have a school education but no degree in anything perse
 
Is it out of the question for you to get a degree, even if it is not as a full-time student? I ask because while my lack of a CS degree hasn't impeded my career as a software engineer, having a degree at all (English in my case) has been important to some of my employers and customers.
 
@AdamCrossland well I have been thinking about getting a CS degree
part time it would have to be
just not sure if it is worth the effort however
I mean, from what I have seen, some that have studied IT at school know less then I do, when I have just studied everything myself
 
Tony, that certainly may be the case. I know that I am a much better programmer than MANY coworkers past and present with CS degrees, but you'll find a certain bias against non-diplomaed people in corporate hiring. It's not impossible to overcome, but it makes the trip a lot harder.
 
yea
I have come across this
 
3:38 PM
Certainly, there are examples of people like Jamie Zawinski who have had legendary careers with just a high school diploma, but he is the exception that proves the rule, I think.
 
hmmm
it's an interesting point to ponder
 
Have any of you folks signed up for Google's Cr-48 pilot program? Maybe actually received one of these devices?
 
@AdamCrossland I signed up when I heard about it.
Haven't gotten on yet
Also haven't heard anything new about it since it was released. AFAIK it's similar to iOS with "Apps" and a "Store" of sorts all run off a modified Chrome browser which sits on top of a minimalistic OS.
 
I signed up towards the middle of December when I opened Chrome first thing and it invited me to apply. It seems to be difficult to come by information about how many are being delivered.
@Josh - yes, that is the impression that I have too, and while I'm not expecting the Cr-48 to be an earth-shaking experience, I am deeply interested in how HTML5 seems to have the potential to make in-browser apps that are as powerful as the desktop apps that I develop professionally.
I was a n00b at my first job when Sun's diskless workstations were coming into and then quickly out of vogue, but it seems as though we might now be in a place where the extremely light-weight client experience might be worth revisiting.
 
@AdamCrossland I have seen some pretty amazing things done in with the newer [HTML](news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-20029043-264.html) spec. Integrating that with an operating system could mean quite a bit. Already Chrome is all browser, everything is generated with HTML and CSS. Even the developer tools and new tab. Pretty neat stuff.
 
3:51 PM
that Cr-48 definitely looks interesting
 
Cr-48? What's that?
 
 
@Anna - the Cr-48 is a netbook that runs Google's Chrome OS. Essentially, nothing but the Chrome browser on top of an invisible and very lightweight build of Linux.
 
INteresting.
 
It really could be interesting. There are enough units in the field that there are plenty of reviews of them, and there are clearly issues with the hardware, but it has the potential to be a harbinger.
 
3:53 PM
Wow. I went to see if I can sign up for the pilot and there's a dropdown for countries, but I still have to pick a US state.
 
HTML 5 could drive a paradigm shift in terms of how we think of in-browser apps.
It's US only at this time.
 
@AdamCrossland perhaps, however I'm not so sure that running everything in browser is such a good idea
especially in terms of security
 
@Tony If everything is in the browser what's the issue?
 
@AdamCrossland I expected that, but I temporarily had hope when I saw a fully populated "Country" dropdown. Bad form design.
 
Chrome does an excellent job of sandboxing things away from each other.
 
3:56 PM
Browsers aren't inherently more vulnerable than any other software, and as @josh notes, Chrome's sandboxing and process-isolation makes it pretty hard to hack.
@Anna -- yes, that has been widely complained about. It would have made some amount of sense for Google to accept non-US countries as a gauge of potential interest, but you can't even do that really. Kind of an odd gaffe by the company that lives and breathes the web.
 
they aren't necessarily more or less vulnerable, just I think it will possibly be easier to break when all is running inside the same parent process... it won't be long before someone finds a hole in the parent, that can get to its children
just everything is more exposed merely because it's in a browser too...
 
@Tony: Chrome uses separate processes for each
 
How do you mean that it's more exposed because it is in a browser?
 
@AdamCrossland: I assume he means because JavaScript can be manipulated Client side
Vs something like Swing which you can't easily modify in a desktop application
 
unless that browser can now do stuff without connecting to the internet, it's more exposed, unless I'm missing something here
 
4:01 PM
Browsers can do lots of stuff without the internet. Local storage, offline modes, etc.
Continuing: The moral of this is simply do not trust client input ever.
 
@Tony -- that is one of the greatest features of HTML 5. It contains a complete specification for delivering content and operating client-side code in complete isolation.
You need a network connection to get the content in the first place, but after that, an app that is designed to work offline can do so.
 
oh I see
sounds interesting
had no idea about that
I'm not really a HTML person
 
But more importantly, it's somewhat naive to think that when you are connected to the network that your browser is the only point of vulnerability.
 
yea I know that it's not the only point of vulnerability, that's not what I'm saying
 
Now that I'm running Chrome, I actually worry less about it as an attack point than other applications and background processes.
 
4:05 PM
I worry about the gnomes inside my computer
 
Gnomes? Mine came with gremlins. :(
 
The ones that think it is funny to run a virus scan at 11am
 
Mine has fruit.
 
Chrome is by no means a secure paradise because it runs all in different processes though... there's always a hole...
mine with hobbits :-)
 
@Josh...so does your office smell fruity?
 
4:08 PM
Actually, running in separate processes makes in more secure, not less.
 
@Pemdas No, I meant I'm working on an Apple computer.
 
lol
face palm...i should have picked that up
I just lost nerd points -1
 
Yes, yes you did.
 
ha - yeah u did
since we are talking Chrome - this was a good read on sandbox - eweek.com/…
 
4:47 PM
morning
 
@instanceofTom Good morning.
 
morning = new Tom();
 
@Pemdas No, Tom.addMorning(new Morning(new Date()));
As long as you assert Tom.alive
 
Tom.addMorning(new Morning(new Date(), new Coffee("black")));
2
 
4:58 PM
Tom.sendGreeting("programmers.stackexchange.com",Greetings.RegularMorning);
 
Getting very nerdy in here
 
assert ((nerdLevel > 0) == TRUE)
 
`message = MessageFactory.createNewMessageOfType(MessageType.FRIENDLY);`
`message.setRecipient("@AdamCrossland");`
`message.send();`
I guess that editing to include `'s doesn't work
 
code should work in chat
code tags i mean
we dont need code executing in chat
 
They appear to work
But not when you edit
OIh
Oh*
That's weird. It seems like they do
 
5:02 PM
if ( foo.bar == bar.baz)
hm not what i expected
think we will be able to grow the programmers chat population?
 
@instanceofTom What do you mean?
 
I mean I have only ever seen a few more people in here than there currently are
wondering if that will change and this popularity of the room will grow
 
If we decide to connect everyday we will condition people with the fact there is people
 
thats why i am here
 
I'm not sure.
 
5:10 PM
Me too, I changed my bookmark from programmers.stackexchange.com to chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/21/programmers in Chrome
That's the first step. Now we must say interesting things. That's the hard part ;)
 
Yeah lol
when we have a topic it seems to flow
 
Hey today is the primary of StackOverflow. That's a good topic!
In 4 hours. stackoverflow.com/election. Who is going to get your votes?
I'll vote for Robert Harvey, Tim Post, Lasse V. Karlsen, Rook & Chris Jester-Young. I've seen Martin York is nominated in both P.SE and SO...
 
gotta readup
 
5:28 PM
Harvey and Post are good.
Not sure about the others
 
I like Kev's post
 
Yes me too
But I don't know him
 
me neither
I think robert has my vote
 
The others have been very helpful
 
5:52 PM
Doesn't look like there are really any bad choices
What OS is everyone on?
 
xp
 
@Pemdas oh, I am sorry I asked
:-p
 
@instanceofTom OS X
With Ubuntu for servers
 
nice
ubuntu 10.10 for my desktop 10.04 for my servers
 
Windows 7 at home, XP at work
 
6:14 PM
What, no Vista fans??
 
I tried vista, but I couldn't get all my dev tools to work right.
 
I think Harvey, Post, and SLaks are my picks for SO mods.
 
I liked it well enough, but Win7 was such a great upgrade
 
I haven't tried W7 yet
 
definitely worth it
work is going in a few months, and I can't wait
 
6:16 PM
I run Win7 everywhere, with an Ubuntu 10.04 dual-boot at home.
 
57 candidates for 2 positions?
I like TextMate too much to switch fully to Ubuntu
But I found I can't really use Windows daily
 
I do like windows 7
thats where I game
 
I actually didn't dislike Vista once it got past SP1, but Win 7 is superb, a legit upgrade. I just wish that my client would switch off of XP. So conservative.
 
I used to try to develop on windows7 because I was too lazy to reboot into linux, but it was more frustrating trying to find and use proper tools
 
@Anna: totally agree on SLaks. Run into him on .NET topics, and he's really good.
 
6:21 PM
Figured out a good solutution, using Virtual Box, I just boot up a guest Ubuntu OS and switch into full screen mode on one of my monitors
then its like I have 2 separate desktops with seamless interaction :-D - geekdom
 
@AnnaLear Not my top 3, but not a bad selection
 
VirtualBox is so good. I love that I can have windows running in VB appear on my non-virutal desktop.
 
@instanceofTom running VirtualBox on windows?
 
@AdamCrossland I love that too
@FriedWishes , I have VirtualBoxes under my Windows host yes, but I also use it on ubuntu and osx
 
I'm drowning in email today. Send help.
 
6:28 PM
@AnnaLear Categories and flags ...
 
so who should I vote for at programmers?
wait ... half the room is running ...
 
@CRoss The best
That's who
Who you think that is would be an entirely too subjective question, and would likely be closed as Too Localized or Not Constructive
 
You should vote for Mark Trapp, ChrisF, and Josh K here. That's who I'd vote for if I weren't running. (Come to think of it, are nominees allowed to vote? I don't think so, but I've no idea.)
 
@AnnaLear I think so
But I haven't run in any other election so I don't know
I would assume (like any other election format) the nominees are granted the ability to vote. It wouldn't make sense for them not to.
 
6:42 PM
i am accepting bribes ;)
 
@Pemdas I have waffles.
 
404 Waffles not found.
 
@AnnaLear That's the joke.
 
@JoshK Missing waffles are no joke.
 
Really, @JoshK this is quite upsetting, those waffles are likely as delicious as unattainable
 
6:47 PM
@AnnaLear Well I guess we better find some waffles then
@instanceofTom They look good don't they?
 
sure do
 
7:11 PM
@anyone using the stack exchange chat 'desktop notification'
 
@instanceofTom where is that at?
 
i see it at the bottom right of the chat window, directly under the list of starred quotes
i am on chrome that may make a difference
 
@instanceofTom in FF - not there
@instanceofTom in chrome v10... also not there. can u post the link
 
chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/21# is the link so it must trigger a js action
 
I see it in Chrome 8, but I haven't tried using it.
 
7:16 PM
I used it at home in Chrome
Very basically it throws a popup and alert nonise
noise*
 
listenerBody: function (){return typeof c!=="undefined"&&!c.event.triggered?c.event.handle.apply(o.elem,arguments):w}
is the body of the onclick event
 
I haven't missed it at work in FF or Chrome
 
weird - i guess i don't get to use it
 
@JoshK is it worth enabling?
 
@instanceofTom I wouldn't say so
 
7:51 PM
Those chrome experiments are pretty cool.
 
Apparently, tacobell's beef might not contain enough beef to be considered meat by FDA standards
 
That's what I heard.
 
But I never assumed it was beef to begin with.
 
Makes the Onion's satire youtube.com/watch?v=RyXC4kyY-s0 that much more funny
@JoshK haha hadn't seen that one
 
7:54 PM
The content of taco Bell offerings is -- sadly -- entirely on-topic here at Programmers.
 
@AdamCrossland what, Mountain Dew and coffee brands next?
 
@Adam ...so?
 
Just noting that often times programmers eat fast food.
And taco bell is really kind of bad fast food.
 
ohh, i read what you said as 'off-topic'
sorry
I was about to launch into a rant about how chat should be relatively safe from topic considerations/regulation
 
No worries. That kind of thing happens all the time.
Totally agree. Everything is on-topic here as far as I'm concerned.
 
7:58 PM
within the boundaries of good taste
as defined by programmers of course
 
Good taste? We're circling back around to Taco Bell again?
 
hahaha, I think tacobell is the antithesis of good taste
 
hunger makes anything taste good
 
@CRoss Not TacoBell
 
and if McD's is the only place selling hot coffee at 3 AM ...
@JoshK you obviously have not been very hungry
 
8:02 PM
I used to eat tacobell a lot while I was in college, but then my fiancée and I discovered the mexican restaurants in town, and I was never able to look back
 
@CRoss Yes, I have
And sure the initial mouthful is fine
But wait a few hours and it's not worth it
 
hmmm, I've never had that problem
but, good taste ...
 
8:37 PM
Back from gay boulet
 
what languages do you guys/anna use at work/home/etc?
 
Nice guys / anna comment.
;)
 
C#/.NET pays the bills. At home, I play with Python/AppEngine and Rails (though not much recently).
 
C#/Python at work. C#/Ruby at home.
 
@JoshK ;-)
 
8:44 PM
I used to dabble into Java and Perl, but it's been a while.
 
PHP / Java / Grails is what I prefer to work on when it's "work." On the side I play with a lot of the bleeding edge frameworks (Snap / Lift / Lithium) in various languages (Haskell, Scala, PHP respectively). I also dabble in general Python scripting and done Django work though I didn't have the greatest time doing that. I'm working on increasing my basic bash proficiency and one of these days I'll do C.
 
Java/Python (mostly for django) pays my bills, java/c# at home for personal projects, and python for quick one-off or small projects
 
C#/Java/ASP(Classic)/VB6/KSH at work; Java/PHP at home
 
were you here when I posted the link about how if you use a certain floating point number in php it will throw php into an infinite loop?
 
probably at work :-)
in all honesty I use PHP, but I am by no means an expert
I've been using it because it's free
looking for a free alternative that supports MVC
 
8:47 PM
Ruby on Rails
 
@CRoss Have any Java experience?
 
2 mins ago, by C. Ross
C#/Java/ASP(Classic)/VB6/KSH at work; Java/PHP at home
 
Opps, missed that
I would give Grails a shot
I would stay away from Rails. It will scramble your brain.
 
what about Spring-MVC on Tomcat?
 
I haven't used SpringMVC much to be honest.
And mostly because of what I hear from other people.
 
8:50 PM
I use C# with .NET / Mono both at work & home
 
Major amount of configuration needed to get something out the door.
All in all a great framework, but only if you're doing something large enough to warrant it.
 
kind of the vibe I got
 
If you're looking for a pure Java framework why not look at Spring Roo?
 
@Pierre303 Can you use Mono to do ASP.NET yet?
 
Again, haven't used it yet myself but it promises a light weight version of Spring
 
8:51 PM
Flask for python is good... granted I just discovered it yesterday
 
C. Ross: yes
 
What's the reaction to Pylons compared to Django?
 
how much config does it take?
 
@CRoss Roo?
 
But all I did are console based applications and the only ASP.NET I did to test was with an early version of Mono and it worked. So I guess they have improved a lot since then
 
8:53 PM
was asking about ASP.Mono (reading on SpringRoo now)
 
I haven't done any MS stuff, would be curious to know as well.
 
Josh K: I'm pretty involved with them, so anything I would say will be suspicious. I will say it anyway: there are a lot of greatness in the MSFT ecosystem.
 
@Pierre303 Be as suspicious as you like, I'm not one to discourage active participants from encouraging others on to the bandwagon so to speak.
 
oh, on WinIntel, Microsoft's dev tools are the best ...
it's just that it's only on Wintel (till recently at least)
 
Visual Studio is so damned good.
 
8:56 PM
which edition?
 
In just a few year they came from absolute crap to greatness.
This is encouraging for our crap ;)
 
@instanceofTom 2005/2008/2010, pro or better
 
Actually, I think that 2005, 2008 and 2010 have all been damned good in their times, and each release gets better.
 
I love how MS has releases tied to years
Word 2003, Word 2008, etc
 
I regularly use 2008 and 2010 today for various projects.
 
8:58 PM
Havn't tried 2010, 2008 was a step up from 2005 though
 
Same for OSes. Do you remember Windows 95? Now Windows 7 is really something.
I have been using Ubuntu intensively for a full year before 7.
 
Vista wasn't even that bad, after the driver issues got sorted
 
Windows 95 was nice
 
They had to relax the UAC, too. It was brutally slow in the Pre-SP1 version.
 
I remember trying to give it 32MB of ram
On the super fast Pentium 1 chip
 
8:59 PM
C. Ross: Most of Windows 7 was in Vista. Vista's problem was how it was marketed.
 
Otherwise, I still like Vista on my wife's laptop.
 
@Pierre303 Vista's problem was also that it didn't really work at first.
 
@AnnaLear That's an understatement
 
It lost momentum on the initial "wtf is this?!" reaction.
 
SO Primary in 59 minutes right ?
 
9:00 PM
I believe so
 
Ok, I'll wait till that to vote. I'm really curious who will get all votes.
 
So the primaries will pick the top 5 and then have another election, right?
 
My first impression of Vista (right after it came out) was that I had to look at that little blue spinning circle of death for a few seconds after everything that I did. It improved substantially over time.
 
Anna: yes, and that one will be with closed votes. We won't see them until the end.
 
@Pierre303 Votes in the primaries are open? I didn't know that. That'll be interesting to follow.
 
9:05 PM
@Anna: we can see them yes, however they are anonymous. This is what you can read on the right column of the election page. To see rule of a phase, just click on the tab
In the nomination phase, any community member in good standing with more than 12,212 reputation may nominate themselves to be a community moderator.
Nominees are required to construct a small, freely editable introduction to describe why they might make a good community moderator. Comments are active during the length of the nomination phase – please comment freely, particularly if there is any way a nominee introduction can be improved or refined to be more clear.
All nominees are displayed in most recently nominated first order.
In the primary phase, all nominees advance to preliminary community voting. Any community member with 150 reputation may vote in the primary.
There is no commenting in this phase, only one up or down vote per candidate. The candidate vote scores are all public. Initial voting should provide a rough sense of which candidates are most electable.
All candidates are displayed in random order.
The primary is not binding; nominees may withdraw at their discretion at any point during the nomination phase.
 
Nice, thanks.
 
In the election phase, 10 candidates advance to final community voting. Any community member with 150 reputation may vote in the election.
Each community member has 3 votes. Please cast your votes in order of preference, starting with the most desirable candidate first.
All candidates are displayed in random order.
The vote tallies are private until the election is complete.
After 4 days, the final voting results will be freely downloadable from this page forever, and we will calculate the 3 winners using OpenSTV with the Meek STV method.
 
12,212 rep now, eh? The rep requirement for SO modding has skyrocketed.
 
56 nominees. That's a lot comparing to ours
 
I'm surprised SO is only electing 2 mods.
 
9:07 PM
As am I
I guess it's because they have so many 10k users
 
I guess it has higher base of ... yeah, that. :)
 
I think it's because they will keep one or two from the core team. Such as Marc Gravell
I would make sense.
 
9:59 PM
Is it just me, or do a large number of the questions on PSE seem to be getting closed?
 
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