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12:00 AM
She'll never know there had been an adjacent enemy worker in that case...
 
the queen can always find out
she can see her food go down
and know that she didn't create a worker
therefore there must be an enemy worker nearby
 
vampire hasn't even found ziggurat and is winning
 
@ppperry She can't remember what her food was last turn unless she encodes it in cell colors...
 
true
didn't think of that
although it only takes one color
just set her own square to (my food)%8+1
 
It's really low information. Which is why I'm so impressed with all the variety of behaviours
 
12:01 AM
since a queen losing eight food at once is doomed anyway
 
She can't lose more than 5 food without spotting any of the workers
 
true
so, a clever queen could detect being stolen
 
So your one cell color method should work as long as no one changes it...
 
@trichoplax per turn*
 
Yes in a single turn - you're right
 
12:02 AM
@ppperry yes, but they can't do that while moving
 
on the other hand, if a worker spends a turn erasing her color, then she can see it's white
not true
one could build a straight line ant that used varying colors depending on the queen's food
 
no, but the way you steal without them realising is by having them move adjacent
 
@DestructibleLemon Unless they set the color of the cell they intend to move to next turn
 
hmm
interesting idea
 
I'm not sure what the queen is going to do with this information but at least we now know she can detect it with a little work
 
12:04 AM
and without slowing her down
at least for lone queen strategies
 
@ppperry actually it slows them down a lot
 
um, how?
 
because colouring takes a turn to do
 
no
 
oh, your straightline ant?
hmmm
maybe
 
12:05 AM
yah
it already spends moves coloring
so using more than one color instead of one would only cost in resistance to encountering other trails
 
but unlike most every other strategy you get entirely confused every time you encounter another ant's trail
 
not unlike every other strategy
romanesco road does that too
 
but thats romanesco
it doesn't even move to get food
 
true
also, @trichoplax many of the images are outdated
since trail-eraser holes are now much less random
and more straight
 
vampire is very effective without ziggurat
or at least this far through the game
 
12:08 AM
Considering how deliberately oversimplified I made Romanesco Road, I'm shocked that it's still half way up the leaderboard
@ppperry Yes. I was thinking that updating them each time I update the leaderboard would make sense, to avoid excessive edits
 
it's ahead of bad random-walks
things that trail-eraser sabotages
 
Which is likely to be every 24 to 48 hours now that there are more players. Possibly longer once we go over 16 players (next restart of the tournament)
 
and possibly trail-eraser incarnations that never hit hoard
 
what if you made trail eraser but instead of erasing trails it made more trails
 
what?
 
12:10 AM
with the workers
 
how would that be a viable ant?
 
how is trail eraser a viable ant?
 
that is just a waster of food
can you see
 
same with trail eraser
 
Antdom Walking Artist does that
 
12:11 AM
yeah I guess
 
trail-eraser has, in the past, prevented other ants from gaining over 100 food with just 1 or 2 of its workers
 
now I'm getting another idea...
what if the ants made trails, but after finding food, return to the queen
 
that's just roman ants
without its specialty
of dotted roads
 
yeah
but with like mini black holes
 
Unless the queen stays still after creating workers
 
12:13 AM
no, the queen is slower than the worker ants
because it is making a trail
 
you're just describing roman ants
 
You could make a diagonal version
 
yeah
diagonal is better because ants can return quicker as well
 
Should be considerably more efficient
 
also the blackhole is fairly different tbh
it means it covers space while only having a small distance back to the main trail
 
12:16 AM
I'm gonna keep trail-eraser orthogonal
because that means it's more likely to cross diagonal trails
and erase them
DIE, TRAILBUILDERS!
 
:O
ppperry your trail eraser is mean
 
that's THE POINT!
 
what would trail eraser do if the queen got surrounded by green?
 
I'm trialling running 3 tournaments in parallel, so I can get a headstart on the next leaderboard after the one I'm currently running (the currently running one doesn't have Vampire in it)
 
12:41 AM
now, back to this challenge ...
 
Indeed
 
1:20 AM
I wonder if some structured ant will find a way to neutralize trail-eraser
 
I'm rather enjoying the Ant Queen Disco Challenge, but I'm yet to write a competitive bot.
 
> Disco
Is that just because of the GIF?
 
They're Disco ants.
 
@ΗγρεŗN̛ευτŗιͷo It's meant to reflect the fact that the game is about changing the colour of the arena squares
 
1:22 AM
Oh. That makes sense :P
 
I've actually been amazed by the variety of different approaches and how devious some of them are getting
 
I should write a bot for it sometime.
 
I added some screenshots to the spec to show how it looks by the end of a game
 
I've tried a few different things, some useful, some absolute failures, it's great to see how much complexity can come from a single function body.
 
How do you zoom?
 
1:23 AM
Hover your mouse.
 
@ΗγρεŗN̛ευτŗιͷo If you mean in the controller, just move the mouse over the arena, and click to lock the zoom. In the screenshots, click for full size
 
It just freezes it...
Ah okay.
 
17 messages moved from The Nineteenth Byte
@ΗγρεŗN̛ευτŗιͷo Does it run OK on your Chromebook now?
 
Yes. I'm using Linux right now on an Acer computer which works too, but both work nicely now with a bit of startup delay :)
 
Some of the entries now produce a lot of workers, so it might slow down noticeably as the game progresses and the population increases
 
1:30 AM
Ah okay.
 
@ΗγρεŗN̛ευτŗιͷo Did you notice any difference to the startup delay? I did a little optimisation but not sure how much difference it makes on a different computer
 
It appears to be a lot faster now, but that might be because I switched computers.
 
You can press "No display" to quickly skip through moves without showing them, if that helps
 
Oh interesting. Thanks.
Also, I get how the format works from your examples but I haven't read through the full post yet. The objective is to get the most food right?
 
There's also a fork of the controller with experimental extra features for tracking ants and debugging, if you're interested in trying it out.
Just going to link the git repo fork that has an additional option to enable tracking ants on the map for those that want to see where the heck the Steamroller is. Download zip, extract, open the html page in your browser, the js does the rest (props to the guys that created the baseline "parse and run answers" code). :) — Draco18s Jul 23 at 6:10
 
1:32 AM
Ah okay. Thanks. I may look at that sometime.
 
Although no need to download now, as Draco18s has added an online version
 
@ΗγρεŗN̛ευτŗιͷo Yes, the score at the end of a game is the number of queens who have less food than you (any food held by workers at the end of the game doesn't count)
 
@Draco18s is it worth deleting your comment about the fork and adding a new one, since downloading is no longer required?
 
1:35 AM
@trichoplax where
 
@DestructibleLemon follow the link in the comment
Just no need to download anymore, just read the README
 
@trichoplax Does a queen need food to produce a worker? Or is there no correlation?
 
One piece of food per worker
2
 
my trail-erase once got disqualified for that during testing
 
@ΗγρεŗN̛ευτŗιͷσ Although I'd recommend reading the spec first, if you write something that tries to break a rule there will be a disqualification reason shown along with the input the function received and its response, so you can see what went wrong
 
1:53 AM
9 messages moved to Trash
 
@trichoplax Ah okay. Thanks.
 
2:06 AM
@trichoplax what color corresponds to each number?
 
@HyperNeutrino Scroll down to the palette drop down box - they are in order from 1 on the left to 8 on the right
 
oh okay. thanks
 
You can also change to the colourblind friendly palette if you wish
(I actually quite like the colours)
 
Ah okay.
Hey I made a bot to test functionality that just moves diagonally randomly ({cell: 0}) and it actually got one piece of food :D
 
:D it might get disqualified
 
2:11 AM
Yup. Probably will end up stepping on another ant.
Also, is there a way to find your ant if you don't leave colortrails?
 
walking next to it
 
I mean like find it in the controller
 
oh, there is a github fork that lets you do that
 
Oh the debugger one?
will look at that one too. thanks
 
It looks the same as this one, but with extras. Works well as long as you don't use "Fit to width", which only works properly on the original controller
 
2:14 AM
Ah okay.
lol my bot got DQ'd xD
 
ecks deee
kinda pretty
 
also I would make a comment to ziggurat to fix bots getting stuck
but they're ruined by vampire anyway
 
7 games in to a new tournament including Vampire, Ziggurat is currently 3 places higher on the leaderboard...
 
... weird
maybe it only messes up when vampire arrives?
but vampire is actually kind of effective without ziggurat
pierce was winning but then an ant walked in front again
 
2:20 AM
Yes I was expecting Vampire to perform as well as Steamroller since it's based on it, but it's not so far. Takes a while for things to average out though, and possibly even longer now there are more than 16 players
 
is it cheating to sabotage your own bot for points?
like if ziggurat were by dave, that might be intentionally helping another of your submissions
 
Question: Is it possible to set the color of a cell that you're not on but is within your 3x3 block?
 
yay
not sure if that helps me cuz I don't have a bot anyway xD
 
i would make a bot but js things
 
2:27 AM
anyway gtg now. o/
 
wildfire pwns ziggurat/vampire again
@trichoplax thursday 26 july?
isn't that thursday 27 july?
 
oops
 
also maybe you should specify what time zone you're using on that too
also 2017 is probably not a needed detail
 
I'll add UTC in the next edit, and I might change it to Friday too, as the controller is a lot slower with Pierce
 
also I would like a verdict on that self sabotage question @trichoplax
also you know there are bots that have more ants as well?
also I see it is a good idea to program a contingency plan in case someone tries to use your ant for points
 
2:35 AM
@DestructibleLemon The spec only bans teaming up against others - each player has to be trying to win in its own right. Taking advantage of your own previous player is acceptable if the previous player is still trying to win, rather than just setting up something purely for the later player
 
ok
but how do you know whether it is trying to win though?
 
@DestructibleLemon Yes it's been slowing down gradually as more players arrive that produce a population of workers. The problem with Pierce is that it often converts most of its food to workers, so that half the population of ants are Pierce workers. Other times it stays with just 2 workers, so maybe the average doubling of the game time is partly down to Ziggurat and the improvements to Black Hole.
None of these are a problem for the game - it's all acceptable strategy. I only mean "problem" in the sense that the leaderboard will have to wait a day or so longer.
@DestructibleLemon That can only be subjective. I've tried to avoid strong incentive for that. For example, I changed the design before posting so that workers steal from queens instead of vice versa. This means creating an extra player purely to supply extra workers is not as effective anymore. There is still opportunity for building a purely supporting player though, so I'll just have to judge this as it happens
Also this way around it's harder to build a supporting player without having other players take advantage of it too
I think...
 
you know what would be funny? a bot that steals from vampire
it would do even better than vampire, because it would get its own score too
 
2:52 AM
That might well happen, especially once Vampire is updated to target more different players
I notice that Vampire still allows Ziggurat to create new workers on schedule, so the worker population grows and brings more and more food back to the Vampire queen
 
ah, but ziggurat gets ruined fairly easily
they probably should have picked a better target
 
It annoys me slightly that there's a non-zero chance that any x or y may contain no food.
 
Why does that annoy you?
The food deliberately has no structure
 
I've made a bot that likes straight lines.
And it may doom itself to failure by bad RnG.
 
yesssss
 
3:02 AM
@ATaco You need to assess whether the advantages outweigh the losses from games where you get nothing. It's all part of the game...
 
@trichoplax new comment about thinger made
also, black hole isn't so round any more :B
 
It's probably a bad bot, and it's definitely a good mechanic, but that doesn't mean it can't annoy me slightly.
 
@ATaco Of course. I was just interested in why
@Draco18s Upvoted so it will show without people having to press "show more comments". Is it worth deleting the earlier comments (a couple mention downloading) to avoid confusion?
 
old one popped
 
@Draco18s There's also this:
@Neil It isn't hosted in runnable form on Github, just download a zip, extract it, and open the html page in your browser. Then check the checkbox in the tournament list. The column is unlabeled, whoops. I'll fix that. — Draco18s Jul 23 at 19:55
 
3:11 AM
I did that thing
the link goes to the runnable .io page
 
Yes I noticed - it works great.
 
I know <3
 
Just thought it might be worth deleting the comment I quoted above, since it mentioned downloading, in case it confuses people or puts them off trying
 
I'm going to run a tournament overnight with every existent bot against my new black hole, minus Trail Eraser (I want to see how good the black hole is against everything that isn't specifically built to murderize it)
oh
gone'd
sandbox result of the latest version
not round any more
 
@Draco18s it reminds me of a white bread sandwich you left somewhere and forgot about
 
3:19 AM
:D
 
Wait is it possible for me to highlight the ants?!
I've been staring at the pixles like "Where are you little guys"
 
@ATaco See the comment on the challenge with @Draco18s 's forked controller
 
My awesome sauce fork
 
Ran just Ziggurat and Vampire. Vampire finished with over 300...
 
3:22 AM
wow
 
And yet in the tournament with all 17 players, Ziggurat is above Vampire 10 games in
 
Praise be.
Also, what on earth is that?!
 
that's a ziggurat
a big one
 
Excuse the redundant question, it's just impressive.
 
The colours look a bit different because it's not aligned to the pixels (I pressed "fit to width" to be able to see more)
 
3:24 AM
yeah ziggurat is a bit buggy isn't it
 
Ziggurat did most of the work there - Vampire brought 12 of its own gathered food and the Ziggurat workers gathered all the rest
 
@trichoplax probably weird bugs
 
@DestructibleLemon Do you mean the fault lines? They don't cause as much of a problem now it has 4 colours instead of 3
 
@trichoplax I've seen ants get stuck on a line surrounded entirely by the wrong colour
 
Oh yes I've seen trapped ants still, just not as bad as before
 
3:26 AM
know what's awesome about pause-on-disqualification?
I can copy the input over to the "test input" box and click "test" and figure out what went wrong quickly :D
 
neat
 
I rather like the soft colour pallet, am I alone in that regard?
 
kind of weird the colours aren't in the same order though
 
@Draco18s Not ready for an edit yet? I probably won't be finished with the current leaderboard until Friday now anyway as it's slowed right down
 
@Draco18s it's not the same
 
3:31 AM
@ATaco I like it too. It's designed to be distinguishable for people with different kinds of colour blindness, from here
 
@trichoplax Almost, I just fixed a "laden worker moved onto food" bug
@DestructibleLemon um...
 
@DestructibleLemon I didn't try to line them up, since they're not the same colours and there would always be some not matching
 
well actually
if you lined up red with orange
you have pretty similar colours other than that
 
Good point. I may consider changing that.
 
3:34 AM
Added to my list of changes to make
 
I'll keep the main palette the same and change the other one, since I'm guessing most people will be used to using the main one
 
@DestructibleLemon Refresh my fork, let me know if that's better
vampire can't vamp the black hole
 
@DestructibleLemon That's a handy coincidence. The palette in the paper has an extra colour that I didn't need - if I'd dropped another one instead it wouldn't have lined up so nicely
 
3:38 AM
 
we did it team
 
a winner is us
 
I like it. Updated in the main controller too
 
I gotta sit down and merge some of your own changes into my fork
It's not a simple task
 
Do you have git?
 
3:45 AM
I am not a git guru. I'm a GUI pleeb.
 
gui pronunciation: gwee
 
I'm still getting used to git, but I think it should do a lot of the merging for you if there isn't too much conflict
 
Draco18s - Last Monday at 11:06 PM
How do I merge the commits on the original into my fork?

Keybounce - Yesterday at 12:48 AM
What I do:
1. My work is in a new branch, something like 'git checkout -b master new'
2. To update:
a- git checkout master
b- git fetch
c- git pull
d- git checkout new
e- git merge master
 
Someone has already done all the fiddly thinking required, so we don't have to
 
3:47 AM
There are likely conflicts :B
like the readme file
 
I changed my readme file online, and made all the other changes locally. Git just told me to pull from GitHub before pushing my local changes. I didn't have to do anything else
I mean it literally told me what to type
 
I meant that if I try to merge my branch with yours, the readme would conflict
 
Yes, I've changed the readme since you forked it, but it should just ask you which you want to keep
 
I will probably have to do it by hand, because we've both changed the html and js files too
 
If you don't like the end result, you can copy and paste from a previous commit to get the readme you want back, so there's no harm in trying it out
Unless we've changed the same parts of the files, git may well be able to resolve that by itself
 
3:51 AM
I'll try it later
not now when it's 11pm
 
Sure
 
4:04 AM
@trichoplax Oh, yes. I updated the post for black hole
 
Great. Started a new tournament with the latest version, while leaving the existing tournament running. Hopefully this will allow posting a leaderboard based on the old version tomorrow or Friday, and then updating to a leaderboard based on the new one without having to wait another 48 hours.
 
coo
/me falls comatose and hallucinates vividly
 
Alright! I got my Explorer ants working!
 
Ready to post...?
 
4:10 AM
Nope, still need to round off the edges.
It's definitely not the strongest bot, but it's my bot, and I love it.
 
Most of them are not the strongest bot. They still fight it out for as high a position as they can though - there's competition for every spot
 
I still can't make one bot
 
And so far the controller has been able to distinguish all places, so there are no joint positions
 
As before, he likes straight lines, but learning how to turn will be their saving grace.
 
@DestructibleLemon I'm fairly certain you could make a simple one if you chose to, and improve it over time
 
4:13 AM
It seems to get a food piece a little over once every thousand turns.
 
Is it moving at lightspeed?
 
For most of it's journey, yes.
 
One per thousand is exactly the density of food in the arena
 
once every 1000 isn't great :B Black Hole had a peak average rate of 1 piece of food ever 125 turns
had at one point, when it wasn't being messed with*
 
once per thousand is optimal per ant though
 
4:14 AM
It is a group, I should mention.
 
@Draco18s hey, thats pretty rude
 
Over 30,000 turns, it solo got 31 food pieces.
I'm proud of it.
 
hm?
 
@ATaco 31 should put you in the top half of the leaderboard
 
he made a bot and your first comment was that it wasn't that good
 
4:16 AM
I said the rate wasn't great and I was teasing
 
 
I think the food density goes down when there are other bots too
 
That's all one player??
 
That's 4.
Well, 1 player, 5 ants.
 
Do they find the queen again?
 
4:18 AM
Yep, unless another player messes up their lines.
 
my bots all complicated pattern matching & repairing works but a single function to find the queen in the surrounding 8 squares doesn't..
 
I have some bad news
 
therearebotsthatmesswithlines cough
 
I don't expect this ant to work well when there's any amount of competition.
 
4:19 AM
4
A: Formic Functions - Ant Queen of the Hill Contest

ppperryTrail-eraser var i, j var orthogonals = [1, 3, 7, 5] // These are the non-diagonal cells if(view[4].ant.type == 5) { //Queen moves straight to get food // Color own cell if white if (view[4].color != 6) { return {cell:4, color:6} } var specified = null; // Otherwise move to a white cell op...

meet the bane of any trailer ants existence
 
wait does the trail-eraser erase dotted (horizontal/vertical) lines?
 
yes
well, it tries
its not very good at it
 
@Draco18s yay
 
:p
 
I'm tempted to make a bot that makes a lot of colour just to try and spare people from the menace of trail eraser
but it wouldn't work
optionally, I could make another ant that erases trails
 
4:22 AM
The default behaviour of the bots when they get stuck on eachother is just to give up 10/10 would relate to on a spiritual level again
 
muhahahaha
 
if there's not much to destroy dotted lines then my bot could do half well (hopefully..)
 
oh god, we don't need another eraser
2
anyway, night
 
3 messages moved to Trash
 
4:24 AM
> Off topic discussion will be deleted to keep things readable.
 
..I hate javascript
 
Trail-eraser unsurprisingly trips up the bot.
I don't know what happened, but one ant created it's own straight line and is following it forwever.
 
@dzaima me too... me too
 
4:40 AM
I feel like my bot will get 100+ easily in an arena by itself, but with competition it'd be <20 or = 0
 
 
2 hours later…
6:48 AM
I posted my bot.
 
 
1 hour later…
7:50 AM
hmmm
I had an idea for a simple bot
oh wait that won't work
 
rip Pierce, don't even move...
 
 
2 hours later…
9:31 AM
So I was watching a game with all the players, and paying particular attention to explorer.
And I discovered that Trail Eraser got interested in it during Stage 1.
Followed it all the way up till Stage 3, where it had deployed it's workers.
Then, trail eraser just say there, and kept keeping the paths it was trying to deploy around it, so efficently, that it accidently reset Explorer to Stage 1, which let explorer escape.
There's some bot trying to follow one of Explorer's dead worker's paths..?
And then because it doesn't use one path for the workers, Explorer rockets up the score board.
 
9:46 AM
Now I only have one not stranded worker, out of 8. Redundancy = Efficiency.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:08 AM
@Draco18s Last night's tournament gave "A laden worker cannot move onto food." Input: [{"color":1,"food":1,"ant":null},{"color":2,"food":0,"ant":null},{"color":8,"foo‌​d":0,"ant":null},{"color":8,"food":0,"ant":null},{"color":8,"food":0,"ant":{"food‌​":1,"type":1,"friend":true}},{"color":8,"food":0,"ant":null},{"color":8,"food":0,‌​"ant":null},{"color":2,"food":0,"ant":null},{"color":8,"food":0,"ant":null}] Response: {"cell":0}
I haven't excluded from the latest tournament since you've already made an edit since this earlier tournament started, so this is just to let you know in case it's relevant.
 
Ziggurat updated.
I hope I didn't make it worse.
 
I had just this moment started a new tournament running, so I've restarted with that latest Ziggurat now.
 
It looks very funky now.
 
Interested to see how Vampire is affected by it. The random moves to avoid loops makes me wonder if deliberately lacing it with loops would form Vampire traps
 
Possibly, if Vampire is deterministic. I don't really know how it works.
 
11:24 AM
I haven't read all the code in detail either - I'm delighted with so many entries but can't keep up with understanding them all...
 
 
1 hour later…
12:45 PM
@trichoplax That illegal response does not occur in the latest revision
 
 
1 hour later…
1:51 PM
@Draco18s Great. There have been no problems in the tournament with the latest version.
 
@Draco18s How could it erase dotted lines
it can't see where to go next
and I don't want trail-eraser to specifically code against other ants
 

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