TRPG General Chat

5:01 AM

@godskook Also, Dark Souls markets itself as a difficult game, and that's fine. But there are plenty of games that market themselves for my younger sister (for example), without actually being games that she can realistically beat without spending a lot more time on it than would generally be considered reasonable.

Chemus

@godskook What Miniman said is ekfellent, as long as it's apparent on the tin so the player knows what they're buying.

godskook

@Miniman, its perfectly fair to say that SOME games should cater to allowing players to "he should be able to select his level of sense of achievement and level of time investment", as Chemus put it.

But that's not a point of contention.

@Chemus, so you're saying you lose that objection point if Dark Souls properly labels itself as a game for hardcore players?

Miniman

@godskook Incidentally, I keep forgetting to mention - with your Approach system, are races with LA allowed?

godskook

@Miniman, no. Partially because many of them would be absolutely broken.

Lesser Planetouched that hit ECL+0 are fine, though.

Chemus

@godskook Yes, in essence. However, such games will likely sell to a smaller audience and so be either more expensive to purchase, or be less expensive to make is some way (usually in production quality). That's not to say that accessible games are superb, but the risk of badness would be greater with a small market game. Usually.

And being elite is great, but the non-elite often resent the elite, for various reasons and to various degrees.

godskook

5:10 AM

@Miniman, mostly, I'm curious for the sorts of exploits or high-end optimization possibilities taht a player would be able to sneak past a good DM.

@Chemus, I really can't find a good justification for resenting those who have earned superiority relative to myself. As far as I can see, bearing resentment to them is just me being hateful when I could instead either accept a hard reality or strive to match them.

With a caveat

Chemus

@godskook I'm sorry if I implied that such resentment was justified; I merely meant that it's often present.

godskook

That there's a difference between "elitism"(read: earning achievement that others cannot) and arrogance(read: making others feel bad because they're "lesser" than you)

(and by "making" I mean ACTIVELY making, not just incidentally)

@Chemus, it came out of the assumption that you were making a point by even bringing it up. Cause if you're not insinuating justification, I don't see how you're making a point at all, hence the assumption that you must've been calling it justified.

An assumption on my part, to be sure.

Chemus

I was listing the 'costs' of having an inaccessible game.

godskook

Ah.

Chemus

If you remark that you play Super Hard Game X, some who understand that it's super hard will inevitably resent you or think that you're bragging.

godskook

5:20 AM

Sure, but honestly, so what? Why should I care about the falsely-based opinions of others?

Down that road lies a madness I care not abide.

Chemus

Alright. That wasn't my main thrust anyway, but the production costs. If there are more buyers for a game, the price (generally) goes down, or the production values (generally) go up. The smaller the market, the tighter the margins on the game; so it's (often) either more expensive, or lower quality than it could be.

godskook

Well sure, but the value of a product is relative to its fitting to the desires of people in the market. People who WANT Dark Souls to not have an easy mode would be less willing to purchase a game that wasn't true to Dark Soul's "genre". You'd lose money on the core player base.

Basically, while a game like Dark Souls doesn't have access to as wide a player base as say....Mario games, the player base it does have access to isn't as satisfied with Mario games and thus are more likely to spend money on a Dark Souls like game and be satisfied with it and create "fans" of the game.

trogdor

5:35 AM

I accept the right of the people making the game not to want to put in an easy mode, that would cost something for sure

but if they happened to put one in, I wouldn't want to hear certain gamers crying about the fact that an easy mode lessens their accomplishments in the harder modes somehow, that would be ridiculous XD

Miniman

@godskook I figured - to be totally honest, I'm pretty bad at this kind of stuff.

@godskook I'm not sure that logic holds up in the current marketplace. In a world where AAA titles have $99 price tags and sell like popcorn regardless of their actual content, pandering to your core fanbase rather than selling out to the wider population isn't really a commercial strategy.

godskook

@Miniman, honestly, so are my players. None of them really know how to power-game.

Miniman

To put it differently, they didn't make Dark Souls 3 at a similar level of difficulty to the previous 2 because they thought it would make more money.

godskook

@Miniman, I basically don't play console games anymore. Dark Souls is one of a very very few games I'd buy a console to play properly.

Miniman

There were lots of really good reasons why they did that, but "to make as much money as possible" wasn't one of them.

godskook

5:40 AM

If I had the ~$1k to buy a console, a tv, and the game in extra spending money right now, I'd seriously consider it.

Miniman

@godskook Why, given that you can play Dark Souls on PC?

godskook

Oh sure, I'm not trying to say that its the best money-making strategy, just that there's more than one market force at play.

I suppose I could buy a controller and play on PC.

I keep forgetting how much that PC is the masterRace :P

Miniman

Or just...yanno, buy the game and play on PC.

godskook

That would be a required step, yes.

Miniman

@godskook No, I mean, why are you looking at buying anything other than the game?

godskook

5:44 AM

Because 3d-Zelda-likes are controller games, imho, and afaik, Dark Souls does nothing to change this.

Miniman

@godskook I can say with absolute certainty that Dark Souls is vastly easier when played with a keyboard and mouse than with a controller.

That might not be true for everyone, of course.

godskook

"easier" is not a concern

Its by far easier to eat ice cream if you melt it first.

Miniman

@godskook So what is your concern? Seriously, people keep telling me that Dark Souls "should" be played with a controller, or is "better" when played with a controller - why?

godskook

Interfacing

Miniman

@godskook That's the purpose of a controller, yes. It's also the purpose of a keyboard and mouse.

godskook

5:49 AM

Loafers and Sneakers are both made for interfacing with the ground. Wanna guess which one I think is appropriate to wear when I go running?

Miniman

That's not an answer. Yes, ~~sneakers~~ joggers are better for running. They're better because they are made to cushion impact, suffer less wear, allow your feet to breathe, etc.

godskook

I'll be honest, I don't have good answers that can be translated OUT of head-speak and into English. Its "intuitive" that a controller interface is appropriate, though.

If you wanna head-jack so I can show you my head-speak logic, I'll be happy to oblige.

Chemus

Appropriate =/= optimal in all cases.

Miniman

@godskook Hey, I'm fine with that as an answer.

godskook

But I CAN get to metaphors, and despite your objections, I'm quite sure that Sneakers are to Jogging what Controllers are to Dark Souls.

I just have to figure out how to parse the head-speak to get at a more verbose english answer.

Anyway, gtg.

Miniman

5:55 AM

@godskook Ttyl!

Chemus

@godskook Bye :)

BESW

7:19 AM

Great. We've reached that part of the rainy season where the ants are looking for any excuse to come inside.

trogdor

yeah, some in my car

and I didn't even have food in there

normally it's too hot in there for them to hang around, but like 3 or 4 scouts were on the windshield

BESW

7:55 AM

I left my coffee on the table under the window for 45 minutes on Saturday night and it was swarming with ants.

trogdor

sheesh

didn't even know they liked cofee

they like a lot of things obviously, and depending on species, but I didn't know that was on the list

BESW

To be fair, it had almond milk and brown sugar.

trogdor

ah yeah they want that stuff

Anne Aunyme

8:33 AM

coffee is toxic for ants

I know that from a friend who have ants nest at home

seems like it's a drug for them

@nitsua60 sorry for answering so late, but that's gold!

BESW

8:49 AM

I've never seen anything from people who actually use coffee grounds to indicate coffee being an effective deterrent, much less a pesticide--in fact, all the tests I've seen indicate it's at best a physical inconvenience for them.

I use a mix of vinegar, dish soap, and lavender oil; put it in a spritzer and spray on the trails, let it sit a few minutes and then wipe it away.

It destroys their scent trails and makes them disinclined to return. Apply a few times a day for one to three days and they give up entirely. Nothing else nontoxic that I've tried is more effective.

(Most of the ants we get, aren't anything I actually want to wipe out; I just don't want them foraging inside the house.)

doppelgreener

9:26 AM

VTC too broad

trogdor

10:39 AM

@BESW yeah usually they are the black ants

the red ones though, those can go die in a fire

BESW

Mm, even the red ones aren't too bad so long as they aren't fire ants.

trogdor

at least if they are anywhere near my place of residence

usually the red ones are fire ants though

the really really red ones at least

there are some reddish brown ones I guess, those are ok

BESW

11:04 AM

Words to GM by:

The Word of the Lord, aka David Lynch For every film director out there, or anyone who wants to be part of a produ… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/855468663633190912

Tweeted by mccrabb_will on April 21, 2017 at 5:09 PM

BESW

11:15 AM

everyone look at this wizard horse https://t.co/UVy03SNtXM

Tweeted by 3liza on April 24, 2017 at 9:44 AM

doppelgreener

@BESW I feel like that horse is going to rope me into a quest with some dwarves.

BESW

Or give you a pig to take care of.

doppelgreener

@BESW Gandalf once gave someone a pig to take care of?

trogdor

I don't recall that no

BESW

No, Dallben did.

Granted Hen Wen was an oracular pig, but a pig nonetheless.

eimyr

11:33 AM

hi

trogdor

hey

nice to see ya

eimyr

likewise

(I was once told saying "likewise" to people is a horrible insult and I should die in a fire for doing so, I refuse to believe this is the case)

BESW

Likewise.

trogdor

@eimyr I think that might be a UK thing?

I have never heard that as being an insult, or been told by anyone that it is

eimyr

@trogdor The person who said it is definitely not from UK, nor has ever been there, AFAIK.

trogdor

11:36 AM

@eimyr maybe it was just that person then, who knows

Shalvenay

@daze413 basically, two things: 1) strongly behavior-locking something that's still sentient under the hood strips them of free will, which is something that I have trouble supporting, and 2) I perceive a strong ecological pressure away from two-legged prey towards four-legged prey (four-legged prey doesn't try to hunt you back ;)

doppelgreener

@eimyr i'm not familiar with this treatment of the word in Australia or the UK

eimyr

11:56 AM

SO

Anyone knows good resources about what essential elements must every good RPG mechanic system have?

like, an escalation mechanic, catchup mechanic, narrative-mechanical ties etc. etc.

doppelgreener

@eimyr Choice is the only thing I think is universal.

eimyr

@doppelgreener do you really think so?

note I used the wording "Good RPG mechanic"

doppelgreener

@eimyr There's a lot of things I could list, but I could also imagine RPGs where those things deliberately don't exist to create a certain atmosphere.

eimyr

@doppelgreener wanna have a go?

doppelgreener

Agency is a thing, but there are games designed to limit or undermine agency. A logical tie between narrative and mechanics helps understand things -- Mark Rosewater lists "flying" in Magic: the Gathering being an enormously easy mechanic to teach people, because it does what it sounds like -- the mechanic is intuitively accessible based on the narrative.

However not every mechanic needs narrative basis

Catchup mechanics aren't strictly necessary, nor are escalation mechanics.

RPGs aren't something we can make universal generalisations about, hence lending to it being so hard to define what an RPG is and our best measure being we know it when we see it.

eimyr

12:03 PM

what would you say about failure-success cycle?

doppelgreener

What kind of experience are you going for in your RPG?

eimyr

...have you played or read Witcher?

doppelgreener

@eimyr Played a tiny bit, not read, have friends who are a fan.

The essential elements to every RPG system are: mechanics that push the intended play experience, and the removal of mechanics which are either not contributing to, or coming at the detriment of, the intended play experience's detriment (because they're either unnecessary baggage or counterproductive, and unnecessary baggage is extra work for no benefit which is counterproductive to ask of players)

BESW

> Universal generalization. When you gain a boost by succeeding with style, spend a fate point to apply it to everyone in the same zone.

doppelgreener

Consider that there's no one universal thing every good sport has, not every tabletop game has, not every board or card game has, and not every video game has -- beyond the things that are definitional of that kind of game itself.

Sport has physical activity, board games have boards (usually, but sometimes tiles), card games have cards, video games have control input. Those things are the case by virtue of what kind of game it is though.

eimyr

12:10 PM

@doppelgreener Well, if so, I want a game about the players engaging with a world which is miserable, but stable in its awfulness. The PCs are the disruption and players should be motivated to steer the new order towards something they perceive as more just.

@doppelgreener Well, every good sport must have a defined set of rules (otherwise it becomes play), conditions that reward athleticism, some scoring or judging system, some value to the spectator... otherwise it's not a good sport.

doppelgreener

"Games" by virtue come with a set of rules, an objective, and an obstacle or challenge that makes that objective nontrivial to accomplish.

BESW

That reminds me, I want to read Misspent Youth but I only have the Eyebleed Edition.

doppelgreener

(that's pretty much the simplest definition of a game available to us)

eimyr

now add role-playing and extrapolate mechanic elements that support each of these features

doppelgreener

@eimyr I would disagree sports have to involve any real spectator value, but they do tend to be competitive & have an objective measure to determine success (in the form of scoring, usually).

eimyr

12:17 PM

@doppelgreener Name a sport that does not involve spectator value which you also consider a good sport.

doppelgreener

@eimyr That's kind of a "no true scotsman" thing, but squash and rock climbing.

There's a reason we have the term "spectator sport" -- they are sports that are popular for spectating on.

eimyr

@doppelgreener I realise, that's why I put the onus of determining "good" on you.

Well, I'm pretty sure squash tournaments are viewed. Not sure about rock climbing, I didn't really have much experience with it.

doppelgreener

Let's get back to discussing RPGs rather than debating what makes a sport, actually. I realise we've gone on a tangent here.

@eimyr So you want an atmosphere of discontented content & a drive to improve the situation?

Erik

The problem is that if you put the onus of determining "good" one someone, it's not objective anymore. Same with rpgs; if you want to know what "all good rpgs" have, you just need to find out what YOU like and put that in.

If you want some good resources on game design though, there are plenty.

NautArch

Happy Monday!

eimyr

12:22 PM

well, so for the "witcher-feel" game... I kinda want a situation where NPCs exist in objective misery with no clear way out. I want PCs to represent a disruption to that situation whether they like it or not. I want the players to be motivated to take sides and steer the situation towards betterment at some personal cost OR to have to play the price of neutrality if they don't.

doppelgreener

@NautArch \o/

eimyr

then, the situation needs to settle into a new order, where misery is still present, but it's distributed more justly in the eyes of the players

it's not really a game with lost of objective player agency, but rather a game where you examine outcomes of player decisions, some made with more agency than others

Erik

So the total misery is sort of constant, but the players get to push it onto other people who deserve it more?

NautArch

@eimyr our of pure curiosity...what is the "price of neutrality"?

eimyr

@NautArch well, name of one of the witcher stories. Witchers were supposed to be "neutral", as in ones with no political affiliations, no societal fetters etc. Witcher stories are full of instances where trying to remain objective, neutral and withdrawn cause or sorts of trouble.

essentially, if a conflict between two factions escalates enough, folks who support neither are seen as enemies by both

The Oracle

12:31 PM

0

Q: How to give feedback that is not in line with Mod opinion without getting banned?

Shortly before the moderators opened their feedback thread I was banned for 7 days. If you know me, you may have wondered why I did not participate (and maybe you were happy about that, that's perfectly fine, everybody is allowed to not like what I say or how I say it). we have asked you to n...

NautArch

@eimyr ah - gotcha. I was thinking about an issue I have in our rotating-DM storyline where a couple of pCs are "True Neutral" and have used it to basically be pure murerhobo.

eimyr

nah, it has nothing to do with adventure-style play

In fact, even though witcher stories are ostensibly about slaying monsters and resulting complications, this is just a backdrop for an examination of the human condition and the nature of evil.

NautArch

@eimyr have you read the books?

eimyr

@NautArch Of course I have.

NautArch

@eimyr hehe. THe relationship between Geralt and Yennifer is amazingly complex.

eimyr

12:42 PM

@NautArch It is. The books aren't perfect and you can see what sort of person the author is through them, but overall I'd say it's a genre defining piece.

BESW

Is Yennifer's last name Haircut?

eimyr

Yennefer

And I'm not sure what the joke is...

A lot of people seem to think that "Yennefer" is a mutation of Jennifer, whereas it is derived from Guinevere more directly, highlighting the similarities between these characters.

BESW

It's a running gag in the Netflix series A Series of Unfortunate Events.

eimyr

Oh. I didn't see it. What's the gag, exactly?

Anne Aunyme

A fake identity literally named "Jennifer Haircut", if I remember well

(I probably don't remember well)

BESW

12:52 PM

Count Olaf is accidentally saddled with the alias "Yessica Haircut."

Seemed reasonable Yennefer would be his sister.

Anne Aunyme

is this in The Miserable Mill arc?

BESW

I think it's in the second episode.

Anne Aunyme

of the first arc?

BESW

Yeah, of the whole show.

It's in the flashback to explain how the orphans got saddled with him as their first guardian.

doppelgreener

Yes, right at the beginning.

He approaches the bank in character as an Expert Consultant (or something) and someone asks him for his name. He can't call himself Count Olaf, so he scrambles and looks around and says "Y-Yennifer... uh.... uh..." [sees word scribbled in the receptionist's diary] "... Haircut" Yennifer Haircut."

"Your name is Yennifer Haircut?" ".... Yes."

(Neil Patrick Harris has an amazing delivery in the whole thing. Where "the whole thing" could be interpreted as "that scene" or "that show".)

Anne Aunyme

12:59 PM

(or "his whole cinematography" :))

doppelgreener

@AnneAunyme was he engaged in the cinematography? O:

(definitely the show's cinematography was very good.)

nitsua60

1:29 PM

@AnneAunyme Glad you liked it. It's a nice one that one of our lit teachers often uses to challenge students' notion of form.

eimyr

sooo... RPGs, huh?

doppelgreener

oui

nitsua60

@doppelgreener I think climbing's an excellent example: I go every chance I get, but I get nervous, clammy, even nauseated every time I watch someone, even just bouldering.

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