English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2017-02-13

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12:50 AM

You might want to change the example to disinclude definitives and a specified day, because as things are I doubt anybody would really parse "a twenty four-hour shift tonight" as meaning that your shift would take 80 hours. There are not even that many hours in a whole day (including daytime and nighttime), and a problem that is common to all three examples is that there are certainly not 24 hours in a single night. If you don't want to change the example, because you want a definitive answer congruent with the source, I would recommend sharing the source. — Tonepoet 1 min ago

I really do doubt it, but since it is on the internet, somebody will surely argue the point. =P

9 hours later…

9:56 AM

@Tonepoet I agree. I would simply write the same thing as "a twenty four hour shift tonight" without hyphens. I like this point " there are certainly not 24 hours in a single night" lel.

@tchrist tchrist what happened to the tree that fell on to your house (or nearby?)?

10:55 AM

@skillpatrol What does your username mean?

1 hour later…

11:58 AM

@skullpetrol What does your username mean?

12:10 PM

@JasperLoy Hello Jasper Loy. You asked the same question twice, your OCD is showing lel.

@JasperLoy BTW, if you don't like my jokes then let me know and I will not crack them.

user image

@RegDwigнt Did you take the picture or is it from the net? Also which country? Just idle curiosity.

It looks yuck.

@englishstudent Read the two lines carefully.

@JasperLoy Hah! Ping is to different users. I get it.

1 hour later…

1:27 PM

> Sweet is the lore which Nature brings;
Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:—
We murder to dissect.

Enough of Science and of Art;
Close up those barren leaves;
Come forth, and bring with you a heart
That watches and receives.

Oftentimes when I think too much about language (in the form of poetry, lyrics, etc) I feel as though I'm "murdering to dissect".

@JasperLoy petrol for the skull.

1 hour later...

@JasperLoy looking for skill

2:27 PM

@englishstudent It lies in my front yard, now in logs.

@RegDwigнt What immortal hand or eye / Could frame thy fearful symmetry?

2:39 PM

@tchrist since you are the only one in the room. I have a person narrative title that i'm not is that good. Can you make a suggestion ? "Bad company impedes your life progress" I think "life progress" seems kinda wrong. I need something like achieving personal goals

or something like that?

personal*

The due date for the title is today which is why I'm asking

Napoleon Wilson

I need some input from someone better versed in the intricacies of the English language. In the sentence "TV stations didn't used to ident all the damned time." is the use of the word "used" (as highlighted) grammatically correct in any way, be it some archaic or uncommon way even? I would have said it has to be "use", but was told "illiterate" when attempting to correct it.

← 1 message moved from The Reading Room

Matt E. Эллен

@NapoleonWilson you are correct. it should be "use to", used to is used when used is a participle, e.g. "he wasn't used to running so far"

Napoleon Wilson

Was what I was thinking too. But the way in which I was told off was appalling enough to admittedly trick me into thinking I was wrong, given that I'm not a native speaker.

Matt E. Эллен

it is a confusing distinction, mostly because they are homophones, unless someone is enunciating very hard

23

A: "I use to", or "I used to"

As reported by the NOAD in a note about the usage of used: There is sometimes confusion over whether to use the form used to or use to, which has arisen largely because the pronunciation is the same in both cases. Except in negatives and questions, the correct form is used to: we used to go t...

Matt E. Эллен

2:56 PM

@terdon so, you can get away with used to ident?

fair enough

@MattE.Эллен Well, I used to do it but I didn't use to do it.

I think.

Matt E. Эллен

oh, yes, I misread the second paragraph

Napoleon Wilson

Thank you for your input. That helps.

The /justə/ modal is funny.

People actually do write it with double past.

This is not considered well written, but it still happens.

I thought we had questions on this.

This is not a language or grammar problem. This has to do with spelling exclusively. Every English speaker knows that the negative of /'yustə/ is /'dɪdən yustə/. That's what's said millions of times daily by English speakers. How you want to spell /'dɪdən yustə/ is what causes all the problems. Seems I posted on this problem some years ago in another forum, using ASCII IPA with /@/ instead of /ə/, etc. — John Lawler Oct 31 '13 at 19:32

29 results

Napoleon Wilson

I see it all the time. But this was the first time I got called illiterate for correcting it.

3:03 PM

You were called illiterate for changing "didn't used to" to "didn't use to", or the other way around? Telling someone in writing that they have no letters is obviously either a self-evident lie or a rank insult.

Matt E. Эллен

> Basically, this is a bug in English writing.
So, the answer is, you pays your money and you takes your choice.
There is no correct answer, and opinions differ.

perfect :D

You aren't supposed to be able to apply do-support to a verb already inflected for past tense. But this is an awkward case.

Napoleon Wilson

@tchrist Well, I took it as an insult. I guess my mistake was telling him that "&" is not a proper replacement of "and" in regular text, which...wasn't received too well I guess.

@NapoleonWilson &I agree with you there, for whatever that's worth.

We do not replace words with unlettered representations in normal text.

Napoleon Wilson

But I still wanted to make sure I'm not missing some genuine grammatic exception there that might be used in the Oxford dictionary in 1928 and still be valid in elaborate speech. ;-)

3:07 PM

The exception is for large figures that would be too cumbersome to write out in all but the most formal of circumstances.

Well, this is spelling.

We instinctively want to say "that might have used to have been in the 1928 OED", and speaking it may well come out that way.

@tchrist Words, quote unquote, eh? -> '"Words", eh?'

Most copyeditors will blanche, except simon, who will simonize.

@terdon Watch my dancing fingers.

:)

9

A: "How did it use/d to work?"; 'use' or 'used'?

English has two idiomatic constructions, both spelled used to, and also both pronounced /'yustu/ or /'yustə/ -- never /'yuzdtu/. One is the transitive predicate adjective be used to, always with an auxiliary be, which means 'be accustomed to', and which can take a gerund complement clause. I'...

Right, there is no ['juzdtu] pronunciation anywhere. That’s not idiomatic. It is never said.

It's like the z-s and v-f devoicing in "has to" and "have to".

So it's always just /jus/ there, never /juz/ when it's got the /tə/ part immediately following.

No native speaker is ever taught this; every single native speaker simply does it naturally.

But you have to teach non-native speakers who learn by rote rather than by watching movies. :)

The English tense system of past/present (well, past/non-past) bumps into issues with the English modal auxiliary system. Except for backshifting, we don't think of modals as tensed verbs, so you need something to carry the tense, which is why people resort to be able to instead of can, have to instead of must, etc.

As Prof Lawler observes, everyone knows how to say these, but not everyone knows how "to" write them.

> There are no problems with either idiom in real (i.e, spoken) language;
it is only in spelling that there is a problem, and it is an insoluble one.

I bet he hasn't tried aqua regia on it.

Ok, so why is aqua regia stronger than either of its two components alone, that's what I'd like to know.

> Aqua regia dissolves gold, though neither constituent acid will do so alone, because, in combination, each acid performs a different task.

3:47 PM

@tchrist Not stronger, just different. It's explained in the next sentence:

> Nitric acid is a powerful oxidizer, which will actually dissolve a virtually undetectable amount of gold, forming gold ions (Au3+). The hydrochloric acid provides a ready supply of chloride ions (Cl−), which react with the gold ions to produce tetrachloroaurate(III) anions, also in solution.

4:02 PM

@terdon Yup, found that, thanks.

I've just made a tag for clipping and assigned some questions to it. I chose that over the fancier Greek version, apocope, but made synonyms for that as well as apocopation, truncation, and shortening — but not Crisco.

Clipping (morphology)

In linguistics, clipping is the word formation process which consists in the reduction of a word to one of its parts (Marchand: 1969). Clipping is also known as "truncation" or "shortening." According to Marchand (1969), clippings are not coined as words belonging to the standard vocabulary of a language. They originate as terms of a special group like schools, army, police, the medical profession, etc., in the intimacy of a milieu where a hint is sufficient to indicate the whole. For example, exam(ination), math(ematics), and lab(oratory) originated in school slang; spec(ulation) and tick(et ...

It's certainly common in schoolboy slang, but hardly limited to that.

1 hour later…

5:09 PM

@NapoleonWilson The trick with questionable alternatives like this is to... reword to avoid it entirely. "TV stations hardly ever idented all the damned time."

@Mitch Hello dude.

Wait.. 'idented'... that wasn't the question? What is 'idented'? 'indented'? 'identified'?

@JasperLoy Hey what's up?

I wanted to ask you if you read the Feynman Lectures on Physics.

I am thinking of getting the New Millennium Edition recently published that fixed hundreds of errata and converted all the text into LaTeX.

It is Valentine's Day here.

@tchrist It is interesting to know that they originated in school slang.

@Tonepoet I can't recall. Did you get all three additions books to the OED?

@JasperLoy I've never read them, but I hear they are good.

@Mitch I also hear from some they are overrated. Unlike Mitch, who is good.

5:18 PM

I've read parts of 'What do you care what other people think' (by Feynman) more of an autobiography

There seems to be a Feynman cult who likes to take whatever he says and make it into a book.

I've heard that people really like 'WDYCWOPT'

The Six Easy pieces and the Six Not So Easy Pieces are just twelve lectures from the Lectures, it appears.

But my impression was that Feynman was really full of himself and was wrting it to make himself look good.

@Mitch Shouldn't it be "Why do you care what other people think"? I have heard a lot about that book and seems like a good question for this room.

5:21 PM

@Mitch Full of himself? I think that sounds like me.

@englishstudent 'why' sounds more formal.

@JasperLoy Do you have any plans for the Valentine's Day?

@JasperLoy most people are literally full of themselves

@Mitch But grammatical right?

@englishstudent Nope. I never had a girlfriend, and I am still a virgin too.

5:22 PM

@JasperLoy Oh. That sucks. But why "too"?

Never mind lel.

Got it.

@Mitch It would be bad otherwise. Imagine people being possessed by evil spirits.

@englishstudent I think 'why' is more proper, if that's what you're asking

@Mitch Yes that. Thanks a bunch.

@englishstudent A general comment. In English, sometimes we may use redundant words and the sentence is still grammatical.

@JasperLoy spirits are non-corporeal, take up no mass. That's science.

Feynman would agree with me.

5:24 PM

"Thanks a bunch" is not necessarily sarcastic right? I used that in a non sarcastic way.

@Mitch Science is overrated. Buddha is underrated. QED. Feynman studied that too.

Feynman is rated just right.

By the way, the Feynman Lectures can be read online at feynmanlectures.info @mitch if you are interested.

@englishstudent nothing is necessarily sarcastic.

all depends on context (and intonation)

@JasperLoy Then I have a tip for you: you can impress girls with your singing and get laid lol.

5:27 PM

@englishstudent Thanks. You can try to do the same.

@JasperLoy I might. I just have highschool physics.

LEL

@Mitch True.

@Mitch I was totally interested in physics until I decided to just study math. Then I discovered most of math comes from physics, lol.

In the UK universities they have a lot of physics courses in the math degree.

@JasperLoy math used to be a tool for applications. then iit became its own end

Especially Cambridge, where there is a department of pure mathematics and mathematical statistics and another of applied mathematics and theoretical physics.

5:30 PM

@JasperLoy really? that is not at all the case here in the US

@Mitch Exactly, which is why I mentioned the UK, at least those places I checked out.

Western education (colleges etc.) is so expensive these days. It is depressing.

Now the US produces far more Fields medallists than the UK though, showing that perhaps research is just more extensive there.

@englishstudent Not just in the west but in the east too. I am sure universities in Asia charge very high fees too.

@JasperLoy but all those Fields medalists are probably 1st or 2nd generation immigrants

@englishstudent It's OK if what you get is good. But the education I received is not good. It is terrible.

5:34 PM

Also I think Beyoncé was robbed by Adele at the Grammy's

Did Kardashian get robbed in Paris? I think so.

@JasperLoy Oh, why "terrible"? Tell me more.

Holy crap, someone needed to come out on stage right then and advocate for Bee

@englishstudent Nah, just lacking in breadth and depth and rigour and coherence.

@JasperLoy jaja. not in the same way

5:35 PM

I tried to eat less but I am still at 75 kg. I wanna cut down to 60 kg by this year.

@JasperLoy that's like everything

I also hope to solve all my mental problems by this year.

@Mitch Yes. I think you can guess where I studied, a highly ranked university...

@JasperLoy How come you solve your mental problems on your own?

I guess it is doable.

@englishstudent I don't wanna go into that now because it takes a book to explain.

@JasperLoy Kardashian? Right. What do you expect? :)

5:37 PM

@JasperLoy The Imperial College of Antarctica? Best tech school south of the equator?

@englishstudent Do you know John Nash? Did drugs and therapy work? No. He did it himself. Same.

Broken arm? Fixed it myself.

Diabetes? Fixed it myself.

@JasperLoy Then you can write all your thoughts in a book and sell it. It could make you super duper rich if it is a good read.

Stopped eating Frosted Flakes. It's like they're putting sugar on top of sugar.

@JasperLoy Yes I have of him.

5:39 PM

And have Matt Damon play you in the movie version.

Ok. In chats how do you know who is talking to who LEL?

Actually, I went from 60 kg to 75 back to 60 back to 75.

When they make a movie of Matt Damon's life, who will get to be the actor playing him?

I mean if it weren't for the pings.

@englishstudent Use common sense.

5:40 PM

@englishstudent Pings is how you do it.

oh. and common sense

@JasperLoy That I lack, lel.

@Mitch I hope they hire me to do it. I wanna make some money.

and jinxing a lot

@JasperLoy I want to be executive producer. Those guys just sit back and get a check.

I can write a script. Deal?

Today is strange. Matt is here but not Kit, lol.

@englishstudent I also like Hindi movies. They punch and fly like Superman.

5:42 PM

@englishstudent Done. signature pages scanned and sent by email.

@JasperLoy True lol.

@Mitch You are a good man. Yay!

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch an ident is when the TV channel shows it's logo

These days I watch more American cable or tele movies than Hollywood ones.

@MattE.Эллен Welcome home, lol.

Matt E. Эллен

BBC One - Ident - 'Capes' - 2008

@MattE.Эллен oh. is it like when you say 'expiry' you really mean 'expiration'?

Matt E. Эллен

5:43 PM

maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe?

@MattE.Эллен I just found out that Countdown now uses the ODE as the official dictionary for the gameshow, but that may have changed.

jajajaja

55555

Matt E. Эллен

@JasperLoy maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe?

mdr

5:44 PM

@MattE.Эллен Is there something wrong with your fingers today?

Matt E. Эллен

maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe?

I use the OED for pressing flowers

It's really good at that

The DOE is a female deer.

What about Ray?

A pocketful of sun?

wait...handful?

spoonful?

DOE = Dictionary of Oxford in English

5:46 PM

@Mitch Do you own original OED? It's on my "to do" list to buy the original OED one day.

Matt E. Эллен

a drop of golden

It fills up way more than a spoonful

As crazy as it may sound.

@englishstudent if by original you mean the online version available for free through my local library, then, yes, I do.

@MattE.Эллен pfft... that doesn't rhyme

@Mitch I mean the one in volumes. I wanna buy it one day lel.

5:47 PM

but maybe more concentrated

I now have the Oxford Dictionary of English, and the Oxford German/French/Italian/Spanish dictionaries.

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch golden rhymes with to

I don't intend to get the Oxford Chinese/Arabic/Russian/Portuguese dictionaries because I don't wanna study those languages.

@JasperLoy French language intrigues me. It is fascinating.

@englishstudent I do have the compact edition which comes in two humongous volumes plus a magnifying glass because they miniaturized the font.

5:48 PM

But you can get all nine online at premium.oxforddictionaries.com for a small annual fee.

@MattE.Эллен in Latin maybe

@Mitch Ok that sounds sensible. Perhaps I'll go with that option.

@Mitch The latest one is one compact volume, lol. Also, there are now 3 additions books to the OED for new words and changes, I think,

@JasperLoy Not quite. I just have the first two. I also don't know where they are now

@Tonepoet ROFLMAO

5:50 PM

@JasperLoy I'd like to know all language, but Arabic is problematic because there's the arabic in the Koran, There's a slightly different Arabic in universities, and then there's the variety of Arabic in every single different Arabic speaking country that are almost entirely mutually unintelligible.

@englishstudent I got it many years ago as a promotion for a book club...only paid a dollar for it.

I doubt there's that kind of deal nowadays.

@englishstudent I advise you not to waste money on the OED. By the time you buy it it is already outdated. If you want something similar to it, buy the Shorter OED. Two volumes, last edition only in 2007, for a fraction of the price.

But! I'm sure amazon has a bunch of cheap used versions.

@JasperLoy I'll order the third one when I see a good price for it. It's not too important because it's a later publication and the first two, when put together, are A-Z additions so they compliment the O.E.D. 2 up to the date of their publication.

@JasperLoy all the new words they add in are crap words. The only people who use those stupid new words are stupid new people. Like on the internet.

@Tonepoet You got the OED itself in two volumes right?

@Mitch Ah I see. Like they add in my LOL.

5:52 PM

@JasperLoy That version of the O.E.D. is O.E.D. 1.

@JasperLoy exactly

@Tonepoet OED2 now comes in one volume and a magnifier just to let you know

Or 'OED'

only delinquent kids use abbreviations anymore.

Or edgy teenagers on the internet.

Ok. I am gonna head out and give my gf, an old spark, a call. Wish me luck.

I didn't expect to get 3 stars on the wall. This means a miracle is about to happen in my life.

@englishstudent You don't need luck. Just be yourself and do what you need to do.

5:55 PM

You've gotten two before.

@JasperLoy Thanks. I lack confidence sometimes, I mean only in front of gorgeous girls lol.

Lators gators.

Lators gators? Friendo? This is your lingo?

My language? Yes. Why?

Nothing. Getting used to it.

Does it look bad? Let me know. :)

okie.

5:56 PM

Didn't you say you were gonna head out?

mobile.

It's time for you to call NOW.

I am gonna make some coffee and think some things.

@JasperLoy Since when did I ever care if a dictionary is deemed to be out of date? I reference 19th and early 20th century dictionaries all of the time in my answers. XP

Well, okay, I usually don't reference earlier dictionaries but still, any of the O.E.D's. supplemental volumes are much newer than what I usually check.

6:30 PM

@Tonepoet I have a feeling I am talking to a 19th century ghost. =P

1 hour later…

7:44 PM

I like the sun, snow and sky in my newest picture.

3 hours later…

11:09 PM

5 out of 7 users in this room now are mods, lol.

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Feb '1713

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