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7:00 PM
ugh. As a GM, I long ago banned Chaotic Evil PCs. No one ever ran them as "the Joker" or whatever. They always ran them as "Chaotic Stupid", like a 2 yr old throwing a tantrum with swords.
 
The top answer in that one is best... I could do without calling everyone immature, but so many things had to go the wrong way for that to happen.
Yeah, CE doesn't have to be a mindless rampaging psychopath.
But he also shouldn't have been allowed to be evil at all.
But he also shouldn't have wanted to be evil at all (this being his first session with new people).
But also his friends need to acknowledge it's part of the game and people can play how they want.
But also he needs to apologize for ruining the game for everyone else.
 
I play CE well. Or I'd like to think I would, if my friends wouldn't drop the chaotic stupid stigma.
 
"because that's what my character would do..." nothing good EVER comes from that statement.
 
lol
 
Right?
The counter-argument I always give for that is "You are controlling your character. He doesn't do anything that you don't want him to do."
 
7:03 PM
CE gets so tricky. Even if the whole party is CE, inevitably, they will find a reason to betray each other.
 
And the usual (awful) response I get is, "That's metagaming!"
 
It might last a while, but ultimately, there can only be one.... :P
 
@LegendaryDude There is nothing wrong with CE just like there is nothing wrong with LG, you just have to not ruin the game by being a jerk
 
@GreySage Absolutely
 
yeah, there's nowhere on the sheet for making sure the player leaves "Jerk" NOT checked.
As a GM, I'd totally ret-con the entire death scene (maybe even that entire session) out of existence as a bad dream for the PCs, and move on. Without the CE guy or his PC.
 
7:06 PM
My favourite campaign is still our evil one (my character was actually neutral, since I wanted to channel positive energy, but whatever). We stole from and betrayed each other all the time, but the plot (and rewards) made it so we needed to keep each other alive, so we did. And we had fun getting some people raised occasionally
 
Yeah there's a lot of things the DM could do to fix it. Maybe they have. We'll never know because I'm sure they won't share with the OP.
 
I wouldn't
and I probably wouldn't want to work with him after it happened either
So I don't blame his coworkers at all for the treatment
 
I could certainly move on in the office environment, but yeah he doesn't sound like the type I'd invite back to the gaming table.
 
I can't play chaotic evil
I can't play evil in general, lawful evil is the worst I can go
Too nice of a person.
 
My first ever campaign was, in retrospect, "chaotic neutral" (definitely chaotic evil). I joined in the middle of a group of coworker's campaign, and rolled a Runepriest (4e). After several (other) people in the party PVP'd each other to death, I realized that it wasn't gonna work with my character and had him silently run off into the night with the corpse of the only other 'good' character.
 
7:11 PM
Also, I don't want to ruin anything for anyone and I know I might end up doing so if I play evil.
 
I can do LN as a near-evil person. And LE fairly well. NE probably, though never tried. But CE? Nope.
 
I do fine as a DM, I struggle as a player. I've only been part of one evil party campaign and we didn't end up especially evil. More just rude, than anything.
 
I only once ran a Lawful Evil character, it was a cranky old warforged bard with a pipe organ built-in.
Played him kind of like a mafia boss.
That worked fine-ish.
 
You can't run the same type of campaign for an evil party as you would for a "standard" party
Evil characters aren't going to help strangers, period
So you need to give them vices for them to chase down. Loot, mostly.
 
I've found that evil campaigns involve a lot more moving town to town...
 
7:13 PM
Loot or "taking over the world, Pinky!" yeah.
 
@CTWind Don't you mean moving from smoldering wreckage to town?
2
 
That would require us to be competent at it.
 
lol
 
Mostly we're running
 
7:15 PM
I've sadly played basically no campaigns that have the concept of a home base/constant location.
All of my DMs heavily favor globetrotting.
 
murder hobos never fear having their homes get robbed.
 
I'm going to run a colonisation-themed campaign soon.
So that's a home base in spades.
I also ran Kingmaker for a while until the problems with Pathfinder finally caught up to us.
 
Yeah, I've always liked that concept.
 
I would love to be in a game with a strategic layer like that
Oh, I very shortly ran a fantasy X-Com-like game.
 
@UristMcDorf So you mean you hit level 13ish?
 
7:20 PM
@LegendaryDude Nah, it was much earlier.
 
We switched from D&D 3.5 to GURPS fantasy for a brief period. Our entire approach to life changed dramatically when you have a death-spiral system. It was an interesting, fresh, outlook. But not long after that, our group dissolved due to kids and work.
 
We were smart enough to realise where it was headed.
 
Having never played Pathfinder, what happens in the later levels?
 
Quadratic wizards, for one.
Are you familiar with the concept of "Quadratic wizard, linear fighter"?
 
Yeah 3.5 had elements of those problems.
But a good DM could get around it.
 
7:22 PM
"elements"
 
I mean its baked into the bedrock of the 3.5 system
 
Well, Pathfinder has that arguably worse.
 
@Euch too many numbers is what happens
 
That too.
 
@Euch also magic > everything else > fighters
 
7:23 PM
Even 4e didn't have that as much.
 
It all begins to go off the rails once someone gets limited wish.
 
And I admit 4e is heavy on situational modifiers as you get into the higher levels.
 
Lol, it is, but if you went on long, no-safe-place-to-rest endeavors the wizards had flashes of brilliance but couldn't be relied on to one-shot everything.
 
That's a big if. Though - can we not start a 3e rant today? I'm too tired for one :)
 
Lol, fair enough.
 
7:25 PM
A good GM can salvage FATAL but that doesn't mean FATAL's good.
 
After that "can a ship sail with < minimum crew?" question, I'm craving a swashbuckling sea adventure.
 
One of the longer campaigns I was in is a 7th sea one
 
@CM_Dayton I'm 30 with 4 kids. I'm just happy whenever I get to play.
 
@CM_Dayton (Also a valid home-base-style adventure if you consider the ship a base!)
 
Though that's not saying too much, I never was in a campaign that lasted more than approx 15 sessions.
And of those there were like
Three
:(
 
7:27 PM
Yeah. I've not had a _regular_ gaming group since... um... the 1990s. :-(
and haven't had ANY gaming group since we moved to Ohio 4 yrs ago.
 
heh, that workplace questions about killing the party...
 
@CM_Dayton Ouch. What do you do to get your fix??
 
computer RPGs, which are NOT the same. This site, now that I've discovered it. And lots of sighs as I stare at my dusty books and dice.
 
@CM_Dayton Have you looked into Roll20?
 
no, I haven't.
 
7:35 PM
@CM_Dayton roll20.net
It's a virtual TT engine with a community and plenty of people running games and looking for players and GMs
If I didn't have my hands full with a weekly home game I'd almost definitely be running something on Roll20.
 
Did you see the "untrue My Guy Syndrome" question? This is like a reverse of the one on workplace. It made me grin.
I'm going to have to give roll20 a try. Thanks for that !
 
@CM_Dayton yup
 
@CM_Dayton Sure thing!
 
It's very nice! I'm a player in one roll20 campaign. It's nice having character sheets/calculators/etc. and tools to make tracking things a bit easier.
 
That untrue MGS Q needs to be closed.
It isn't even clear what is being asked, and just sounds like a player who is mad about not getting their way
 
7:40 PM
link?
 
0
Q: How to handle untrue accusations of My Guy Syndrome (etc)?

kaayMGS is "I can't help it, that's what my character would do in this situation". The answer here describes it really well, though it then goes on to endorse groupthink (just going along with everybody else). While that is a way to have fun, some people may see it as through the motions and prefer...

 
Aw.
I tried to star the removed message but it didn't work.
 
Isn't MGS just roleplaying at the expense of others (and ultimately, yourself)?
 
@GreySage It's not roleplaying
 
@GreySage tl;dr: using your character to be a d***
 
7:42 PM
The linked question actually explains it very well
 
It can be roleplaying with a stretch.
 
The top-voted answer on the MGS question has the best anecdotal case I have read
The character, who is a demolitions expert, uses his demolitions skill to blow up a spaceship, thereby bypassing the mission to infiltrate the spaceship and assassinate someone, or something along those lines.
 
I'm just trying to think of how an accusation of MGS could possibly be false
 
Which effectively ruined the session for that group and removed all the fun from the game.
He wasn't being a jerk, wasn't even trying, he just said, "Well I'm a demolitions expert, it's what I would do I guess." And the other players agreed! So they went through it to the detriment of everyone in the game.
 
In games like Paranoia (not that I've ever played it! No really!) that involve intentional distrust between PCs, it could happen. Though really, if everyone is aware and onboard with that style of game, it shouldn't happen
 
7:45 PM
@GreySage I don't think truth and falsehood are terribly important once terms like "problem-player' and MGS and chaotic-stupid start flying. It's a question of usevul/not-useful in my mind. And none of those are useful.
 
@nitsua60 Right. You can use them to describe general ideas or behaviors. Once it's about a person at the table it's not helping the situation at all.
 
@LegendaryDude in tha tparticular situation, I think the real issue is that they were arguing at a meta level, instead of arguing in character over the issue
a real jedi wouldn't have let him kill everyone on the ship if they were meant to only kill one person
 
@DForck42 This is true
 
I think in situations like that a meta approach is absolutely necessary
 
@UristMcDorf ehh. it seems like that group let one character's intentions steamroll all of the other character's intentions, and the only defense was "that's what my guy would do"
there was no bartering on "well, what if we...", if was handled as a yes or no situation
 
7:49 PM
Yep, and that's exactly why it's a player issue.
I can't explain atm, feeling really sleepy and tired for some reason
The most I can do is make statements without explaining them :)
 
@UristMcDorf lol
 
I've known military Explosive Ordinance folks. I don't think they'd approach an enemy encounter with "blow s*t up!" as their first approach. Quite the opposite. But that's just my opinion. [kermit sipping tea]
 
I prefer to toss out the idea of metagaming completely. (Warning: link to Angry GM, who some might find... abrasive, to say the least)
If you can get past the fact that you are controlling your character
 
@CM_Dayton Well, it's space fantasy, not real life.
 
And understand it's your decisions that guide your character's decisions
MGS disappears
 
7:53 PM
@CM_Dayton it's a trope, with no real regard to how actual people behave
 
I like Angry since the 4e bosses articles he wrote
Anyway, does the "toss out metagaming" mean "you metagame all the time so the term loses meaning" or "no OOC stuff at all"? Can't read into it very well
atm
For reasons mentioned above
 
@UristMcDorf Neither
 
Of course, some of that comes down to OOC vs IC knowledge, too. while the PLAYER may know the bad guy is on board that ship, there might be uncertainty at the PC level. Or there might be innocent prisoners. or...


Oh, who am I kidding? We would board the ship and fight it out because that's the only way we can get to sell the ship as salvage and keep any good loot.
 
@UristMcDorf You can't not metagame. Your character's motivations need to be driven by your desire to play a game. I had a player once whose characters motivations were to start a trade business. Everything he did revolved around that until we sat down and I said, "I can't run two games. We're not playing Merchant Traders, we're playing Dungeons and Dragons, so please adjust your character's motivations or make a new character."
He understood that he was the one who was making it hard on himself
Because his character didn't want to dungeon or dragon, he just wanted to sell stuff.
And his character only wanted to do that because he was making his character want to do that.
 
7:58 PM
@LegendaryDude Yeah. I've dealt with that, too. Or people who understand that typical D&D games are 50% combat, but then carefully build a PC that's as useless in a fight as possible.
 
@LegendaryDude Oh, that's what I meant by the former option I've presented
 
So once you realize you are in complete control of your character you can "metagame" by realizing there isn't a separation between you and your character, while still making in-character choices about what your character is going to do.
 
I try to subscribe to the same line of thought
 
Well there's another line though, which is like using obviously OOC information in-character. Like if OOC you know a secret about another player or something and you use it against them in game. That, I just call being a jerk.
On the other hand, if you happen to know the stats of a monster in the MM, are you supposed to just conveniently forget them when you face it as a player?
 
Oh, no, I don't consider that metagaming, I consider that... I dunno how to call it.
 
7:59 PM
@LegendaryDude or memorizing the monster manual, so your 2nd level PC who's never left town before suddenly knows the key weakness of [monster].
 
Sure, that's not really something you can control or do anything about
If you know the monster, you know it
 
I meant the using obviously OOC in-character
 
And to make your character play dumb is... well, I don't expect it is all I'm saying
Yeah.
 
Yeah
The only system where I'd try to monitor that stuff with the MM and stats and everything is Paranoia
But
Fiasco does Paranoia better anyway
 
Is Fiasco fun? I was reading about it the other day, was interested in it for when I can't get the whole D&D group together
 
8:03 PM
It's amazing
 
seems like it'd be fun
 
Last time I played I lost a leg and got a railroad
 
Not sure if I can get my less dramatic friends as interested in it
 
Also set up my wife to take a fall for massacring some indians
 
They're more into the crunchy part of D&D
 
8:03 PM
And making the third PC an outlaw
 
I try to make sure the monsters I present have enough quirks or description false-flags outside the listed stuff that there's at least a chance that memorizing the books won't necessarily help. Mostly within the undead/horror side of things.
 
I think it'll work fine
 
I had a debate with someone once who was a staunch defender of MGS, to the point where he thought it would be silly that a hypothetical group of 5 people who came together to specifically play a political intrigue game would be upset that one of them dragged the group into another plane entirely for weeks worth of sessions because its what his character would do. (Then called the campaign railroaded because it was predetermined to be a political intrigue game)
 
I used to love the crunchy parts of (A)D&D. But I'm at a point now where I just don't have the will to learn it to a level where I can game smoothly within the rules. When we tried out GURPS, we were gaming at about once every 3-4 months. We never got to where combat moved at a good pace. It sucked.
Wow. That's some epic-level MGS right there.
 
I do feel compelled to note that there is SOME reasonable level of MGS. If you are Chaotic Good and your party hunts down the cultist that killed your family and you have him on the ropes and all your paladin friends are like "don't kill him we need to interrogate him and find his boss".
I'd say it's reasonable within the context of the game for you to say "no, this is bigger than everything for my guy, he chops his head off without remorse"
Agree/disagree?
 
8:11 PM
Oh, definitely. There are some things that are just too big to pass. But those should be rare and the sort of thing that you've ROLEplayed prior to that moment, and not just suddenly go nuts.
 
Well, there's plenty of reasonable usage of MGS within the bounds of "What I'm doing doesn't hurt anyone's fun".
 
@CM_Dayton I like to do knowledge rolls to see if my character knows what I know
cause sometimes it's fun not knowing the answer right away
 
That's not "my guy syndrome"
That's playing your character
And I think that's perfectly acceptable behavior
 
yep. Rule of Cool and Rule of Fun are the keys.
 
@LegendaryDude Just to play devil's advocate, what if they SUPER needed this guy's info... like, plot can't advance without him alive for an extended period of time?
 
8:14 PM
@LegendaryDude Agreed, although I think the only difference between this and MGS is if it diminishes the fun at the table
 
@Euch That's the DM's problem
2
:D
 
Lol, fair enough. Still a real tough call for the player. It would be good RP for his character to kill the guy. But he's ruining the game if he does.
 
It's not ruined, nothing is ever ruined
My players always say something has "ruined the game"
 
Well, fine, not "ruined" but you get what I mean.
 
Except we keep going and they find a way
In that moment it might seem like 'Oh crap' but it's not a video game where if you kill a key NPC you just broke the entire thing
The DM can fix it
 
8:16 PM
I *have* seen groups turn MGS around. We had an AD&D 2e game where MGS player had his character eat a note we knew contained a critical, plot-stopping, clue. Pure MGS, as there was literally no reason for his character to do so. So we (other players) held him down and cut the note out of him. The GM wrote down the note's contents, tore up the note into pieces, got the pieces wet, and handed them to us.

We put the puzzle together, read the clue, and carried forth into the depths of the lair. Without "bob" and his PC.
 
Lol... how'd that go IRL afterward?
 
@CM_Dayton lol
 
He was pissed. Quit the group. But he eventually got over it. And, really, our group was better off. As a person, he was a jerk, so this move was more IC for HIM than his PC.
 
If he just did it to be a jerk and it was completely illogical for his character to do so I don't know if you can call that MGS
 
@CM_Dayton Well, I'm running Strahd and I have something so juicy... I'm pretty sure I'm going to turn one of the party against the rest.
So... I have all of these conversations on the way :P
 
8:19 PM
"My guy hates elves so I punch the elf leader. It's what my guy would do."
 
The comments on that workspace question are turning into arguments.
 
@LegendaryDude Stuff like that is just looking for ways to interrupt the flow of play.
 
true.
 
flagged it for mod intervention
 
"MGS" cuts both ways though. In general, everyone else isn't going along with MyGuy either because it's not what /their/ characters would do or because that's not where the train tracks go.
 
8:27 PM
@CM_Dayton Freaking bob, man...
 
Which doesn't make it less disruptive, but does seem to skew the advice here so it's always the /other/ guy with MGS.
 
@fectin I think first priority is Role Play, but as a player you should be able to come up with more than one reasonable thing that "your guy would do" and it's fair for the other people at the table to expect you to pick a less disruptive course of action to the game overall.
"My guy hates elves so I punch the Elf Leader in the face." No... c'mon. Make your character go to the back of the line and brood and whisper insults to himself while the other characters do what they need to do.
That's still within the realm of "what your guy would do" and isn't overtly disruptive to what everyone else is trying to achieve.
 
Oh, definitely agree in that case!
 
@Euch It's a DM problem as much as a player problem. If the DM just lets the player punch the elf leader without warning him of the repercussions and giving him time to reconsider... well, now you've got a situation.
 
Brooding and insulting? I thought Elves were the ones who acted like petulant teenagers? Or is that just from earlier editions?
<slaps myself so you don't have to>
 
8:33 PM
The classic example I've seen is "My guy would just blow up Baddie's spaceship" vs. "we demand to duel Baddie face-to-face."
And that's basically just competing MyGuys, with the added layer of one option being sane and the other being fun.
 
I've had GMs that let players do stupid stuff under the MGS. Even when really the actions were a misunderstanding of the situation, the character, or etc. (in other words, sometimes due to faulty Player knowledge). That irks me, too.
 
Yeah, faulty player knowledge bugs me too.
 
@fectin And I think every situation is going to have it's nuances. There's going to be a balance between not abandoning role playing your character entirely but also acknowledging we're a bunch of adults moving plastic minis around and rolling dice... we're doing this to have fun, and it's okay to just follow the fun.
 
Its like, dude, you have a 17 Int and a +5 Diplomacy check. No way you'd be dumb enough to say THAT to the king.
 
Maybe. But capping character skill at player skill is usually not good.
4
So in that case, I'll roll with it and interpret it as the character acheiving his intent
If he insults the king, it's not by accident, if he clumsily compliments the king, it works.
 
8:39 PM
@CM_Dayton Maybe they get away with it because of their Int and +5 diplo
 
Right. But not literally something that ought to get him killed. Filter the "I tell the king 'go bugger yourself!'" through a solid translation layer so it comes out some lofty, high-brow, carefully worded statement that is intentionally insulting, but phrased in a way that cannot be used as an excuse for retaliation.
 
Depends on player intent. If they /wanted/ to be insulting, they just are. If not, then yeah, they're just a charming rogue (or whatever)
@CM_Dayton so, in that case, I would first ask something like "in those words?"
just to try and be sure of their intent
 
:)
 
Intent is usually more important than the description. I hate when players describe things in very roundabout ways without describing their intent, like they're trying to sneak something past the DM
 
@LegendaryDude yeah, that's dumb
I hate the dm/gm vs players mentality
i also hate the pc vs pc's mentality too. it's obnoxious, pisses everyone off, and makes the game not fun
I've played several games where a pc steals from another pc, and it's obnoxious
 
8:47 PM
::passes notes to the GM and other players::
OMG, yes. Or the thief who sneaks off at every opportunity, to pre-plunder rooms before the party gets there.
 
How about the thief who says, "I want to go upstairs in the inn to rob some random person's belongings."
 
@CM_Dayton good way to find a dead thief, imho
@LegendaryDude that, i don't mind as much. it detracts from the party a bit, but can cause some good shenanigans
 
Okay, let's pause the game for you so you can have your own special interaction and get some loot that only you know about and possibly get you in trouble which the party now has to rescue you from.
 
@LegendaryDude oooh, bad luck. That random person was the local thieves guild master. He's... not happy.
 
The player of that particular thief played a lot of Baldur's Gate
 
8:49 PM
Plundiering random rooms isn't the problem there, hogging the spotlight is.
 
And in BG, you're pretty much expected to loot every inn room
 
@LegendaryDude Enough "you find nothing of values" and that'll kill that behavior.
 
So I get it
But yeah, usually it's "you find nothing."
 
Oh, cRPGs teach bad RPG habits. "NPCs don't care if you walk in their front door and rob them blind. GO FOR IT!"
 
My first RP experience was in a MUD so the first time I played D&D when I was a kid I told the DM "I pick up everything on the floor"
I picked up every table in that inn. No one was happy.
 
8:51 PM
Don't even "find nothing of value." "Okay, you're out of the room for a while, and you find 15 gold. What's everyone else doing?" would be fine.
After first level, they're basically only going to find pocket change, so it's like the bard hitting on a barmaid. If it's a throwaway character bit, that's cool (and might lead to hooks), but no-one wants to listen to a 20-minute description of that.
I also find that players (like most humans) rebel against constraints. "Your character can't do X!" just leads to a lot of x-like and x-replacement behaviors.
YMMV.
 
I rarely give my players a flat no. If he wants to go rob people that's fine. But if it gets to be annoying there is a strong chance he's never going to find anything worthwhile or he's going to run into trouble.
If I have a moment to prepare for it I'll throw some magic orb at him that the wizard owner then hunts down (or something like that).
 
Yeah, my default stance is that peasants are too poor to be worth robbing. And that robbing them as a habit might shift your alignment.
 
Might? :P
 
Might. You know. as a GM, I try not to stray into absolutes. Especially with players.
 
cursed items are also fun
 
9:03 PM
oh lord. Yep. Because then the previous owner totally NOT Gollum can chase them for years.
 
@fectin This works well in my experience, the player gets to feel like he is roleplaying (or having his character behave the way he thinks it should), and the party gets to move on.
rpg.stackexchange.com/q/94599/23196 VTC? I feel like this isn't a real question
 
VTC?
 
Vote to close
 
Ah. okay. I'd agree, except I don't see a button for that. Is that on the Meta site?
 
@CM_Dayton It'll show as a link next to "share" and "edit" if you have the rep to cast close-votes.
 
Got it. yeah, not there yet.
 
Hiya @kaay
 
Same user as the "can I roll 2 d10 to get d100". I'm guessing this is a legit question from a newbie who really is in over their head?
Or someone trying to get mad reputation points easily?
 
@CM_Dayton I certainly Assume Good Faith in this case. (It takes a lot to make me start getting cynical.)
(Like a username starting with the string "Troll")
 
Hiya @nitsua60 Sorry for creating chat on WB... I was on chat.stackexchange.com/users/157297/nitsua60 and clicked "start new chat". No WB there.
 
9:12 PM
@kaay No worries--I just thought that over here you'll likely get a lot more useful help than in a one-off WB chat room.
Can you link the original question? I can't seem to find it.
 
2 hours ago, by CTWind
0
Q: How to handle untrue accusations of My Guy Syndrome (etc)?

kaayMGS is "I can't help it, that's what my character would do in this situation". The answer here describes it really well, though it then goes on to endorse groupthink (just going along with everybody else). While that is a way to have fun, some people may see it as through the motions and prefer...

That one?
 
@nitsua60 Deleted, it was downvote bait
yes
 
Still visible with enough rep, @nitsua60 should be able to see it
 
@LegendaryDude Thank you. In short, about dealing with accusations of My Guy Syndrome in a party who mostly expect to roleplay deep (opposite to the most popular trend.
 
Yeah, re-reading now.
afk a bit--sorry
 
9:17 PM
ok, for othersm then - I have trouble asking questions, apparently. had put over 3h of effort improving the question before posting. Wanted to make it concise - not too long, yet accurate and specific enough to not invite discussions born of misunderstanding or lack of context and avoid getting a "too broad". Instead, I got "unclear and ranty".
 
Communication is a skill, Stack posting trebly so.
2
 
I got"Your question comes across as rant-y. Consider rewriting it so that it takes a calm, neutral tone" -
The issue is about defending a stance, so the stance must be presented, especially since the opposite stance is more common. There are answers for dealing with disruptive players who roleplay too deeply. This is the opposite, where deep roleplay is assumed to be the norm.
An appearance of preachiness may also come from my stressing why the much-abused term MGS does not apply.
I believe that, as far as the above allows, the tone is very calm and neutral.
 
Where is this question?
 
Ah, gotcha.
 
9:21 PM
It's been deleted so no longer listed on main site
 
I also wrote: "Assuming the GM was on board with the roleplay (at least up to that point), how best to effectively defuse such a situation?
Those feeling offended have MGS, "Chaotic Stupid" and other terms to toss around; would be nice to have something equally memetic to respond with.". This was misunderstood as "give me an insult I could shoot back" - while my intention was "is there a good way to deal with this, MAYBE with something memetic as that catches on better than explanations"
too much psychology maybe
 
Okay, so here's a rule of thumb you may find useful: describe the real-life situation which led you to ask the question.
Trying to generalise or abstract a question brings in a lot of different problems. Rantyness is one of them, but even more importantly it makes it hard for people to give useful solutions to specific challenge you're facing.
Describe what happened, or is happening, in your game (not the kind of problem you're facing, but the actual events at your table), and why it's a problem. Tell us what you've already done to try and fix it, or what you've thought of but rejected as useless without trying.
 
I and one other fella are preparing a custom not-too-spoilery version of "Same Page", want to roleplay deeper but are pessimistic and want to prepare for such a scenario
 
And try to avoid telling us what solution you need (in this case, a memetic counter to MGS). Describe the problem and trust that people with experience will offer whatever kind of solution they've found most effective.
 
Yeah, that was just an option I threw out there as an example. Thought my question was specific enough that if somee such thing existed, it could be found
 
9:27 PM
@kaay That totally changes the kind of answer I'd give.
 
back
 
I heard advice for writing bug reports once: concisely say what you did, what you expected to happen, and what happened instead. This forces you to think all the way through each, and makes it easier to address. It's possible you might benefit from applying the same rubric for SE.
 
2 of the people we might play with soon... well, I don't quite trust they can shift their expectations like that, no matter what they agree to at the start
 
There's a MASSIVE difference between defusing a tense conversation between friends at a table, and pre-emptively designing a tool to defuse potential tense conversations between unknown parties.
 
@kaay It certainly was too much psychology for me.
 
9:30 PM
@fectin This is exactly how I find it's best/easiest to get quality Stack questions.
 
@doppelgreener Delayed a bit, but I put in a small suggested edit.
 
@BESW Like: one's do-able, the other's an exercise I've no interest in =)
Also, howya doin?
 
rpg.stackexchange.com/q/94592/23196 It was briefly positive voted, now it is hovering on the brink of closure. I can feel the tension.
 
@nitsua60 So tired. Looong week not over yet.
@GreySage Well, remember that up/down voting and close voting measure totally different things.
 
@BESW Amen, man. Any good plans this weekend?
 
9:32 PM
@nitsua60 Hopefully we'll have Greener back for Geek Night after a very long absence.
 
@fectin This works really well, but only if the person who is describing their problem isn't also experiencing an X-Y problem
 
@LegendaryDude But hopefully it'd make an XY float to the surface, no?
 
@nitsua60 Yes, it would make it clear because the given expected outcome likely won't match the action taken to achieve it
And then you probe deeper for the actual problem
 
agree, but I was trying to give better advice than "just write more good!" also, "describe what you were doing" helps with XY somewhat.
 
@BESW Somehow @doppelgreener once rubbed me the wrong way early in my stackizenry, but in the last year I've really come to value his patience and wisdom. (Too bad I couldn't buy him a drink while I was in London.)
 
9:34 PM
ok. So, preachy feel came from generalization. Most of SE not cool with hypotheticals. No convenient solution to misapplication of the "My Guy Syndrome" term. That right?
 
@kaay Those are some good rules-of-thumb, yes. It's not that we don't like hypotheticals, it's just that we've seen that they often cause a predictable pattern of problems.
 
@kaay I don't think it's hard and fast, but pretty much yes.
 
I'm all about finding predictable patterns
 
=)
Oh, no! The Patriots just fumbled!
 
@kaay ...your face is a predictable pattern?
 
9:36 PM
Hypotheticals are tough because they don't have a specific solution. You can't test a solution against a hypothetical social situation.
 
(Catching up on the Superbowl.)
 
@nitsua60 lol
 
sadtrombone.wav? where did you come from?
 
@nitsua60 was that the one when the ball literally got stripped from his hands?
 
My biggest issue isn't hypotheticals. It's snark. And generalizations. And missuse of "ands"
 
9:37 PM
@DForck42 2 min from end of 1Q.
 
@nitsua60 Do you know the outcome?
 
yes
=)
 
@LegendaryDude On the other hand, you can rarely apply a solution to a real-life social situation as hours and days pass
 
@nitsua60 Ah okay :) Go Pats! Co-worker of mine was at the parade on Tuesday.
 
hence my preemption attempt
 
9:38 PM
But SE doesn't necessarily help the asker, just creates a curated set of answers to questions others might ask...
 
@kaay There are other problems with hypotheticals. For one, they have no boundaries.
 
I was traveling for work in a timezone where I couldn't watch it. I asked my wife to text me updates. Paraphrasing, they were:
Oh, no, 0-7
0-14
3-20
9-28, end of the third quarter. I'm going to bed.
 
If you have a real-life scenario there are a set of parameters that are unchanging. If you ask a hypothetical it can get into a lot of "okay, but what if...?"
 
So I woke up, read that series of texts, sat sad-faced at breakfast, and was greeted by celebratory colleagues.
 
@nitsua60 What a cliff-hanger, ahhaha.
 
9:40 PM
@nitsua60 lol
 
@LegendaryDude True, and true. But we're back to the "predictable patterns' and their usefulness for future events
 
@fectin Long, grueling experience has shown that when we design questions to be as broadly applicable as possible, answers tend to be so broad and vague that they're useless as actionable solutions to anyone.
 
@kaay So (bearing in mind I'm half-chatting and half-watching the Superbowl), what's the problem that you're having?
 
Whereas questions about specific problems get answers that explain the how and why of their solution well enough that the same principles can be applied to similar-but-not-identical problems encountered by others.
 
I think we've covered most of this specific instance of my problem asking questions that touch upon the relevance paradox. Thank you and have a good... whatever time of day you're having
 
9:42 PM
Thanks--afternoon here.
I've got to admit--your sentence starting "A consensus is believed to be reached" really confused me.
Good luck with a rewrite.
Booooo!
Falcons scored again =(
0-14.
 
Is it sad that I want an RPG subarea for all the stupid "There was this one time, in D&D..." session stories and/or character builds we all have in our heads?
 
@CM_Dayton Twitter, with the proper hashtag.
 
@CM_Dayton When such things are shared in chat, we save them as conversations.
 
:)
 
@nitsua60 No rewrite, I think it's a case of "there is no conveniently specific answer; all esle is covered elsewhere I've already read".
The sentence... "A consensus is believed to be reached with an exchange of hints that do their best to set common ground without giving too much away or being condescending."
Oh brother... OK, I am a non-native English speaker suffering from using-too-complex-thoughts syndrome :) OK, I can see how THAT adds to the preachy feeling.

Bye.
 
9:52 PM
@kaay No worries--happy gaming!
 
@BESW just general smart-assery, not an actual point :)
 

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