TRPG General Chat

nitsua60

12:23 AM

@eimyr in and out for the next few hours. And, yes, I'll gladly playtest something else.

BESW

Is that an awesome character concept I see? Yes. Yes, it is.

trogdor

hehe

Adeptus

12:42 AM

@BESW "Camelopard keeper"

BESW

Multilingual, well-traveled, familiar with high and low class society, skilled in animal husbandry, with a dash of tragic background and a good splash of risk-taking.

Shalvenay

1:16 AM

hey there @mxyzplk

nitsua60

1:27 AM

I wouldn't mind a second set of eyes on this answer; specifically, should some things be hidden behind spoiler tags, or is the nature of it that my big-bold SPOLER ALERT is sufficient?

user61230

@nitsua60 Mind if I apply some edits, just to see what it looks like behind spoiler tags?

mxyzplk

hi

user61230

You're welcome to roll them back if you prefer it the other way! I think it looks better, though, personally.

nitsua60

@Emrakul of course not--do it =)

user61230

Edits applied!

user61230

1:38 AM

I tried to spoiler-tag it with the OP in mind, and not the general reader.

user61230

I'm not too familiar, though, so I might have messed up somewhere.

nitsua60

@Emrakul thanks. Looks good.

user61230

Sweet!

nitsua60

@mxyzplk hi

Miniman

@nitsua60 I lent my books to a friend, but as I recall one of them mentions that Asmodeus imprisoned Tiamat - could be worth mentioning.

Also, spoiler blocks merged at least one quote with non-quote material.

nitsua60

1:43 AM

@Miniman RoT specifies that Asmodeus "recently reinstated the fallen angel Zariel as the Archduchess of Avernus," but also that it had previously been Bel on that throne. So while Tiamat's certianly under Zariel's thumb in some sense, it seems to me that the "imprisonment" is more a feature of the planar restriction.

Which I attribute to Mike and Jeremy, not to Zariel.

=)

Miniman

Chris Perkins would be the primary suspect :P

nitsua60

(Fair--I don't actually have a good sense of the division of labor among the various D&Ders at WotC.)

Miniman

But I'll have to get my books back and see if I can work out whether I pulled that from somewhere other than my own head.

nitsua60

I can e-mail you mine. There's an internet-tube that goes from US to AUS, right?

Miniman

@nitsua60 Yeah, but it's underwater, so they'll get wet.

trogdor

1:48 AM

lol

nitsua60

(I'm imagining Bronson Pinchot a la Perfect Strangers singing "internet tube" to the tune of "New Attitude", but the internet isn't helping me find the referent)

@Miniman Yeah, and Kobold Press didn't use glossy stock like many of the later partners.

Miniman

@nitsua60 For interest's sake, my understanding is that Mearls is overall in charge, Crawford owns game design, and Perkins owns story.

@nitsua60 It's hard to see that as a bad thing.

nitsua60

2:02 AM

@Shalvenay you started a recursion without setting a depth-condition first... what a n00b!

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 haha. I don't believe we'll be recursing more than once here

user507974

hey guys, i was wondering if i could get your opinion on a 5e multiclass idea i came up with

Shalvenay

@user507974 fire away

user507974

i can either describe it here or post a link to the reddit where i outlined it all

@Shalvenay preference?

Shalvenay

@user507974 probably better to describe it here

user507974

2:15 AM

basically its 10 tempest/7 ancient paladin/3 assassin

Shalvenay

ah, I'm not familiar with the EEEPC/SCAG classes/archetypes\

user507974

10 cleric

Shalvenay

ah, yeah

that sounds....odd xD

user507974

basically Im a divine agent of sorts for a natural spirit of storms who's worship has fallen out of practice

nitsua60

@Shalvenay that's all PHB

Shalvenay

2:17 AM

aaah, sorry :)

I

silly me :)

nitsua60

@user507974 why paladin?

Shalvenay

probably best to declare the class and archetype

nitsua60

i.e. "divine agent" could have been either cleric or paladin; why did character do one for a while and then change?

user507974

@Shalvenay 10 tempest cleric/7 ancient paladin/3 assassin

Shalvenay

@user507974 10 tempest cleric/7 ancient paladin/3 assassin rogue -- correct?

nitsua60

2:18 AM

s/assassin/stabby-stabby-rogue =)

user507974

bad things tend to happen in areas where his protection isnt there more, so Im initially starting somewhat weak and focused on eliminating the evils that plague his shrines (start as cleric with a bit of dipping in rogues)

nitsua60

@user507974 cool.

user507974

as I work to revive his powers I want to kind of become a powerful combatant in my own right, reactive and more like the prototypical champion of a deity

nitsua60

neat

kind of an underground cleric to start, then "coming out" as powers/strengths develop?

user507974

@nitsua60 exactly, around level 4 start taking paladin levels for a while then go back to cleric roots for magical enlightenment

i kinda came up with this sketch with lvl 2 rogue but thought why not take that 3rd level, so thats why i got assassin

the other two were less fitting imo

thief and arcane trickster

ive only played a tempest before so i dont really have a firsthand experience with the other two classes though

after i came up with the general idea i kinda optimized level selections for effective combat and wanted a bit of strategic opinions

if anybody would like to hear it/critique it/suggest useful feats to pick up

we already have done stats and i ended up MAD enough that I can do this build

nitsua60

2:27 AM

let's hear it

user507974

basically im kinda seeing my self set up to be the ultimate escort/buddy fighter

nitsua60

first, what's the sequence of levels?

user507974

1 cleric,2/1 rogue, 1/2 cleric, 5 paladin, not too sure after that

still wasnt too sure about assassin since i kinda fall behind

nitsua60

(I'm not sure how to read that)

user507974

basically start as level 1 cleric, a bit of rogue, a bit of cleric, then a chunk of paladin

Miniman

2:32 AM

@user507974 By focusing on class feature breakpoints, you've missed something important - your proposed character is going to get 3 ability score improvements instead of 5 (or more), and they're fairly MAD to begin with, so it's going to be a problem for you.

Unless you roll for stats and come out with 3 18s, of course.

nitsua60

although race can help quite a bit... half-elf, maybe?

Miniman

It'd certainly help.

user507974

yea, half elf, and i kinda ended up with a bunch of net 14s in the rolling

im like 14 13 14 12 14 14

Miniman

Um.

What are you planning on doing in combat?

Like, are you going to be attacking, casting spells, or what?

nitsua60

stabby-stabbing?

user507974

2:37 AM

so basically i was thinking of being like an uber escort

and partner fighter

i can start in the back with strong spells if i want

but i can always do a dash with bonus action up close

pick up protection

and smack with sneak attacks + smite

ancient oath makes the other partner and me spell resistant

Miniman

Not to put too fine a point on it, your spells are going to be anything but strong. Your progression is much slower than a normal spellcaster and your stats are terrible.

Attacking with Sneak Attack and Smite is good, but you're going to have accuracy problems.

Even assuming you put all your ability score increases into your Dex, it will be well behind the curve for most of the game.

user507974

how badly would accuracy suffer?

and what could i do about that

nitsua60

The MAD puts a premium on the ASI's you're losing.

Miniman

Well, at 1st level, you're at +4 instead of +5. Then at level 4, you're at +4 instead of +6. Then at level 8, you're at +6 instead of +8. After that you slowly catch up.

nitsua60

10/7/3 are rough places for some of the class breaks

Miniman

2:46 AM

So it's not disastrous, but this is assuming you ignore your spellcasting abilities completely.

nitsua60

10/8/2 or 10/6/4 would claw back one of those ASIs, though they still come later than a single-classer.

Miniman

Side note: I never really mathsed before about how tight bounded accuracy keeps these numbers.

user507974

a 10/8/2 was kinda what i was originally thinking

but also are there other things to do that offset that

nitsua60

But you've also got good story. If it's important to you that you grab Assassin, rather than just Rogue 2, then that's what you're getting.

It's hard to get a three-class based story and not end up sacrificing some of the "basics."

Miniman

@user507974 Other than persuading the DM to give you magic items, not really.

user507974

2:50 AM

like would the benefit of gaining an extra attack from something like sentinel be worth it

nitsua60

@Miniman OTOH, my AL GM's first two rolls on the random treasure table netted the group a +1 longbow and... a handful of +2 arrows =)

@user507974 where are you getting the feats? Giving up ASIs?

user507974

we all get a starter feat (DM forgot to give us that day 1)

very generous on his part, but other than that rolling twice to attack many turns could be worth more of a benefit than +1 to attack

nitsua60

aah

Miniman

@user507974 Sentinel doesn't give extra attacks - are you maybe thinking of Polearm Master?

user507974

@Miniman reaction attack thingy

Miniman

2:53 AM

You get those anyway, Sentinel just makes them better.

user507974

@Miniman the third bullet makes it so an enemy attacks something else around you you can do an opportunity attack

and sneak attack should stack since its not specified to work in your turn

Miniman

Yep, all of that is true.

user507974

and this characters damage can meteor very hard with stuff like elemental weapon, since sneak attack would take on thunder/lightning damage as well, then i could channel divinity to do max damage with all my damage die that turn + thunderous smite

all of that activating only when my attack succeeds

nitsua60

First off: is it CHA, WIS, STR that you're stressing?

user507974

thats a great question, is there any reason to stress STR?

nitsua60

2:57 AM

And you'll grab protection fighting style at Pa2?

user507974

@nitsua60 yes

and i screwed up with half elf selection, shoulda just gotten +1 to my dex instead of STR but the DM might let me make that switch since were all just starting

so 13 str 14 dex instead of 14 str / 13 dex

nitsua60

Heavy armor? But maybe you're thinking finesse-based?

user507974

@nitsua60 yea, its an option

i run around with a sword from my diety, no bonuses atm except its finesse

(rather its a rapier dressed up to look like a longsword)

Miniman

@user507974 That doesn't quite work, unfortunately. Elemental Weapon just adds some elemental damage, it won't make your weapon or Sneak Attack deal elemental damage. Also, you can't use Elemental Weapon and Thunderous Smite at the same time, sine they're both concentration.

nitsua60

What's your starting class? I'm not sure I ever caught the sequence of levels?

user507974

3:00 AM

@nitsua60 cleric

nitsua60

So how are you proficient with the rapier/longsword?

(Tempest, probably. Duh.)

yup

user507974

@Miniman hmm, maybe thats not the name of what i was thinking about

i also was hoping theres a chance my DM might see it within him to let my Lightning Bolt (the sword) deal lightning damge as i get stronger

nitsua60

I wouldn't--it kinda undercuts anyone who put six levels into Monk or Druid.

Miniman

I should point out, btw - it's not like you're going to end up with a useless character or anything. Just that it might not be as strong as other members of your party, and it might not be as strong as Monster Math (courtesy of Boris Karloff) expects it to be.

@nitsua60 I wouldn't either, but mostly just because I strongly suspect that it'd break a bunch of things.

nitsua60

@Miniman Absolutely right. If nothing else, grabbing expertise and thieves' tools and 1d6 sneak attack for the cost of 1 level of Rogue (delaying "main" class features by 1 level) is a really tempting option, I think, for almost anyone.

user507974

3:08 AM

@nitsua60 thats a thing with druids or monks?

nitsua60

@user507974 Ki-Empowered or Divine Strikes count as magical for bypassing resistances/immunity, both earned at level 6.

@Miniman For me it's not so much a "fairness" thought, as much as it is "designers thought it was worth this much of an investment to get that feature"

user507974

wasnt thinking of that but thats a fair point, wouldnt have asked for magical status perse but if you guys were DMs, would you modify my weapon as I complete these labours?

nitsua60

As long as other players are getting similarly treated, sure, np.

It depends on the flavor of the campaign/table, IMO

user507974

@nitsua60 how would you guys do it if that were the case?

nitsua60

If it's the sort of thing where the party's picking up a permanent magic item every week (like my AL table seems to be), then it's no big deal to say your weapon's accruing some magical properties, rather than your character having to swap out their favorite rapier for the shinier rapier they just found.

Miniman

3:14 AM

@nitsua60 I didn't mean anything to do with fairness or balance - I meant broken in the sense of mechanics breaking down because they don't take into account the possibility of a weapon dealing damage of a type that isn't bludegoning, slashing or piercing.

user507974

@Miniman interesting point

nitsua60

@Miniman good point.

Miniman

@user507974 Stepping back a bit, what do you want out of each of tour classes?

Paladin is for the insanely powerful aura.

Cleric is just for Destructive Wrath?

user507974

i really like the smite imbuing flavour and extra attack as well

Miniman

Rogue is for...?

user507974

3:16 AM

i just generally really like clerics, especially tempests

and rogue is sneak attack and cunning action

Miniman

Hmmm.

user507974

makes me much more mobile to say the least

Miniman

Well, from an optimization standpoint, I'd have to suggest that cleric isn't adding much to this build.

Except MADness.

Given that your deity is a little unusual to begin with, have you thought about Warlock at all?

user507974

i generally much like spellcasting and i think i get up to 7th level casting in this build dont i?

nitsua60

It's sounding to me like you're more interested in the divine warrior (Paladin) things than the divine agent (cleric) things.

Oh, nvm.

You, then, are straddling the classic D&D conundrum. You'd like to be able to cast lots of spells, while being able to go toe-to-toe in combat.

(And throw in some sneaky skill-monkey, to boot.)

Miniman

3:21 AM

@user507974 Up to 7th level slots, but only up to 5th level spells.

But where I was going with that was that Warlock gets you pretty similar spellcasting capabilities, while also fuelling Smite more efficiently, being SAD instead of MAD, and a magical weapon that improves as you level.

Just as something to think about.

nitsua60

(5th-level cleric, 2nd-level paladin)

Miniman

@nitsua60 Yep.

user507974

paladins are second level up to lvl 7?

or 8?

nitsua60

They get 3rd at L9

user507974

wow, they are slow learners

nitsua60

3:25 AM

Well, they're really 80% martial, 20% caster, IMO.

(And that 20% casting is really good for Smites and Laying Hands, primarily.)

Miniman

Another thought - it's difficult lore-wise, but Sorcerer or Bard both mesh quite well with this build.

nitsua60

Okay, I get cleric. But the things you want from Rogue and from Paladin seem to clash a bit, to me. I mean, Cunning Action and Protection basically moot each other.

user507974

@Miniman how so?

Miniman

Sorcerer, especially, is slightly better AC for a Dex-based character.

nitsua60

In any case, I need to get going. Night, all.

Miniman

3:28 AM

But mostly just because Cha-based spellcasting.

nitsua60

Let us know how it works out =)

user507974

@nitsua60 thanks, gn

Miniman

Bard has some juicy stuff for a support sort of character, too.

user507974

@Miniman magic armor thingy

Miniman

@user507974 I meant Draconic Resilience - it's like Mage Armor, but always on and doesn't cost a spell slot.

user507974

3:31 AM

@Miniman that is a pretty cool ability

Miniman

Anyway, if you want to be a cleric, then go for it. I just felt compelled to point out that there are other options available.

user507974

@Miniman btw, if my DM is down to used unearthed arcana feats you think blade mastery would offset some of the problems we talked about media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/UA-Feats-V1.pdf

BESW

Our Dungeon World GM had to cancel at the last minute today, so we played a game of Roll For Shoes about players whose GM was missing.

2

Miniman

@user507974 It'd certainly help, but I'd want to think about what feats I might want before spending a feat on +1 to attack rolls.

BESW

(We found him with a date waiting see an indie band, and his girlfriend ran a quick game of Roll For Shoes while we stood in line. Yes, this was highly recursive.)

user507974

3:36 AM

@Miniman and sneak attack always on OoA

BESW

We had skills like Knocking 2 and Hunting for GM 3.

user507974

@Miniman but yea, good point

Miniman

@user507974 Ah, good point. Now if only there was a weapon you could use with both Sneak Attack and Polearm Master :(

Not for you, really, but I can see a Rogue build around opportunity attacks.

nitsua60

@Miniman there's always... this

user507974

@Miniman for sure, do they get sneak attack on their turn and on reaction?

Miniman

3:40 AM

Yep.

@nitsua60 Don't mention the war.

BESW

@Miniman If that's the reference I think it is, I'm not sure how many people are gonna get it.

user507974

@BESW dont worry, i didnt =P

Miniman

It doesn't really apply here anyway.

user61230

4:40 AM

I've been increasingly bothered by the dependence of role-playing games on tropes in mechanical and narrative structure.

user61230

I'm beginning to think a very common over-dependence on tropes to set up thematic narrative components interferes with true narrative development and control.

user61230

But on the other hand, I'm struggling with the conflict between how games mechanically behave to guide players toward successful play, and the will of the players themselves to drive that story forward.

user507974

@Emrakul like what?

one thing is that the number of tropes never really decreases so its hard to not have a trope at some point

user61230

Like, jeez, so many games, even my favorite ones. Mostly, games that too firmly adhere to some sort of mechanically thematic creed.

user61230

I mean, I get that! But some games codify them, and some take it to an extreme, like Fiasco.

Miniman

4:51 AM

Hark! A whistling noise not unlike the sound of serious philosophical thinking flying straight over the head of someone clueless.

Can I haz examplez?

user507974

@Emrakul what does that do?

user61230

@Miniman oops

user61230

Fiasco, hmn, I'd need to get the rulebook, but it sets up a very, very specific type of gameplay style.

user61230

But I hesitate to use style, because I don't think that really reflects what I'm trying to say, one sec. I'm going to see if I can find examples.

user61230

The Sprawl, is a recent example, but it's not a well-known game. It's the game that highlighted this problem for me, though.

user61230

4:58 AM

Basically, it's a cyberpunk Apocalypse World game.

user61230

But instead of just setting tools on the table, it really, really grittily guides you into playing a very specific set of tropes.

user507974

then what about taking something like warrior rogue mage and replacing the mage with technology

user61230

To be fair, I really liked the game. But if I were to replay it, it'd be the same thing: three evil conglomerate companies, characters who are literally pre-written tropes built from one of a handful of pre-written playbooks.

user507974

i swear all one shots im ever going to do will probably involve that game

user61230

@user507974 How do you mean?

user61230

5:00 AM

(I think the primary reason I enjoyed playing those tropes is because the players managed to take the game and populate it with interesting characters.)

user507974

@Emrakul well the manual is 40 pages long, it'd be pretty to reenvision that game in your own head

user61230

Oh, Warrior, Rogue, and Mage, sorry I thought you meant the classes, not the game!

user507974

my bad

user61230

@user507974 I'm, mostly thinking about what's pre-written in games, I think.

user61230

i.e. what the system's designed to naturally support

user507974

5:03 AM

@Emrakul like what?

give me an example with fiasco

user61230

I think TVTropes sums it up best.

user61230

> ...it is a perfect tool for setting up a perfect storm of Gambit Pileups, Magnificent Bastardy, and sheer incompetence...

user61230

Imagine a Fiasco game with a) competent players, who b) make a solid plan, c) and execute that plan, with d) some catches, which e) they manage to overcome by the end.

user61230

It'd be boring as hell. The failure is codified into the game: it's the entire reason The Tilt exists.

user61230

It follows a rhythm and pattern: a game that takes characters who make a weak plan, and watch it crumble before their eyes.

user507974

5:05 AM

@nitsua60 you should talk to her about the benefits that pasture fed animals can provide for lands they roam on

@Emrakul by failure you mean?

user61230

@user507974 Characters failing to do what they set out to do.

trogdor

@Emrakul the failure being baked in is actually one reason I am not too interested in Fiasco

Miniman

@Emrakul So, just to check that I'm on the same page as you, an example of this problem could be a spy game that requires characters to be suave, crack puns whenever possible, and just generally be Bond clones rather than giving them the freedom to be terse and efficient, or anything else.

user61230

@Miniman Yeah, pretty much! Games like that. It's baked in everywhere, in subtle ways.

user61230

@trogdor That's fair, I think. I tend to agree, even.

trogdor

5:09 AM

failure is great as a source of tension and drama, but when you 100% know it will happen ahead of time for the entirety of the game,.... that is a little weak

at least for like, a game

if it were a movie or something else non-interactive, it would possibly be more interesting

though even in that context it would need some serious work to,..... work

user61230

@trogdor yeah, I totally get this

trogdor

you would still need to be surprised about exactly the circumstances of failure, or it would maybe even need to be expertly played for laughs the whole time

user61230

But here's the thing: what makes failure in Fiasco different than, say, picking up a playbook called The Hacker and playing a... hacker?

user61230

In the sense that they pin something about exactly what play will look like, I think they're almost identical.

trogdor

well, key word being almost anyway

they would both be lacking something

though the things they lack might not necessarily completely overlap

user61230

5:14 AM

@trogdor How do you mean?

trogdor

well, starting out knowing that you are playing a Hacker will tell you what your character will be doing most of the game

and I agree that that could become tedious, but at least you don't immediately start knowing you will auto succeed or fail because the game railroaded that in

does that make it better than Fiasco? not necessarily, but it is missing an entirely different, if relatively equivalent, thing

I do mostly agree with you that they both lack some random elements that would make things more fun, if anything I am splitting hairs a bit

user61230

That's fair!

user61230

it makes me wonder, though

trogdor

I do enjoy injecting certain tropes into characters I create to play, and I also enjoy subverting those tropes

it's one of the reasons I like Fate as a system

it doesn't exactly force you either to use a trope or to not use one

Adeptus

For almost any game that uses classes, you could argue that the classes are tropes or stereotypes. In the case of D&D, it helped define those tropes/stereotypes.

Depending on the system, there's varying amounts of flexibility within the class, to customise it

trogdor

5:20 AM

yeah, classes can be an issue, but they can also be fun

it really does depend on what you are looking for in your game

if all you want is, say, tactical combat, why would you care about how much of a trope or stereotype your character and their class are, if they do what you want mechanically?

Miniman

Well, that's the thing - tropes aren't bad as such. I mean, if you're playing a game about piloting giant mech suits, it's 100% trope from beginning to end - but that was presumably what you wanted.

trogdor

they aren't bad until they fix you into doing something you don't want to do

which is what Fiasco, for example, would do if some poor sap who was not interested in automatically failing at the end,.... somehow ended up playing it without knowing that

which is a silly scenario, but it was one I could easily think of XD

tropes are close to inescapable in many respects, but if you are aware that you are performing a trope in an RPG,... you could always subvert it, or not.

what is important is really just deciding what you yourself have decided to have the character you play do

not whether it's been done with a relatively similar character before

BESW

@Emrakul We talked about this in Dungeon World just a few hours ago on Discord.

user61230

Ack, sorry, I just vanished.

trogdor

at least in my opinion, I mean, I have thought of how silly it is that just about anything I have a character do could probably be considered a trope in some way

user61230

5:32 AM

@BESW Do tell! Also, there's an RPG.SE Discord?

user61230

But, I think every game I've seen codifies something. It's like, people who design games sat down with a group and decided to codify a very specific idea, or set of ideas, and the game comes out with those ideas nigh on inescapable.

BESW

It's my Discord server, on which is being run a weekly Dungeon World game by Nitsua, as an introduction to RPGs for a visually-impaired Stacker.

user61230

I think it's critically important, too. So many of the decisions involved in creating a role-playing game are completely and utterly arbitrary outside of the context of a trope or thematic goal.

user61230

Make enough mechanical decisions based on thematic goals, and now you've codified a trope.

BESW

Shalv, myself, and Sandwich are the other players, and we've started alternating weeks of DW with weeks of "give VI a tour of the RPG landscape."

Some systems are designed toward story arc tropes (Fiasco) while others are designed toward character tropes (Fate) or moment tropes (Dungeon World--but also character tropes there too).

trogdor

5:35 AM

I don't know that you can easily make a coherent RPG system without codifying some kind of trope into it though

BESW

@trogdor ...Roll For Shoes?

trogdor

Tropes are Legion

user61230

@BESW I think even RFS codifies tropes.

BESW

@Emrakul Such as?

trogdor

@BESW I am sure there is a trope for excessive randimization

BESW

5:36 AM

afk a moment

trogdor

and zaniness

user61230

@BESW I'm having trouble putting an existing trope on it, but its zanine--

user61230

@trogdor narrows eyes, shakes fist

trogdor

hahaha you now join the ranks with the likes of Miniman, forever cursed to be just about to say the same thing I just said :P

user61230

and here I was pretending to be original

BESW

5:39 AM

I just played a non-zany, non-random game of RFS.

trogdor

like I said, Tropes. Are. Legion.

BESW

Skills:

> * Do Anything 1
* Looking for players 2
* Phone freaking 2
* GM hunting 3
* Breaking the Game 2
* Fantastic Worldbuilding 3
---
* Do Anything 1
* Perception 2
* Knocking 2
* Door Opening 2
* Questing 3

But RFS is arguably not a full game.

user61230

Thinks.

BESW

I think one of the stumbling blocks for this conversation is that "trope" has a ridiculously broad meaning.

trogdor

it does, I wouldn't dispute that

my point was supposed to be that it shouldn't bother you if you have stumbled into a trope, though that may very likely have got shuffled away in all the rambling I did

BESW

5:44 AM

It's come to mean, in popular terms, anything that commonly recurs across multiple stories. It can be diegetic or non-diegetic, for starters.

user61230

I think that's probably a good enough definition to start with.

user61230

In this context, it's a restriction that ends up mechanically or structurally imposed by the game system.

BESW

Okay, so that seems kinda definitional to "system," as in a thing with structure.

I've said before, I tend to look at RPG systems as storytelling manifestos making the claim that if you follow X rules/conventions/structures, you'll get a story the developers consider worth experiencing.

2

user61230

So maybe this whole thing is just me realizing that I dislike systems with too firm or stringent motifs.

BESW

Could be.

user61230

5:50 AM

Oh, wait, no. I dislike systems that try to strip from world, story, and character definition elements that are decided by the players to meet the demands of the game they're trying to weave. Particularly when what gets stripped is tied between all games played under that system.

BESW

So perhaps more specifically, you dislike systems whose structures discourage the kinds of play you enjoy.

Which is a very reasonable thing.

Adeptus

@BESW Worded like that, it'd fit most people, I think

BESW

Indeed.

user61230

@BESW I'm not sure that's quite it.

user61230

I dislike the fact that the system enforces those patterns being present in all games played in that system.

user61230

5:53 AM

Even if I think those patterns are topically relevant to the current game at hand.

user61230

It changes the context of the game. Where normally I could think about a game living in its own world, headspace, and bubble, it (quite intentionally) recontextualizes it with other games of the same type.

BESW

Hmm. My personal response to that kind of thing is to collect many different systems which each define different spaces and pick a system to match the kind of space we're interested in for any given game--up to and including switching systems partway through a game.

We've played Fate Accelerated, Don't Rest Your Head, and Monster of the Week in a setting and campaign originally designed for and mostly played in Atomic Robo's rules.

user61230

Okay. I think I'd like that.

BESW

Heck, for one adventure we had Atomic Robo PCs playing alongside a Fate Accelerated PC with all the NPCs in Fate Accelerated.

user61230

...in the same game, at the same time?

BESW

5:58 AM

In the same session.

For another session, we translated our Atomic Robo PCs into Don't Rest Your Head for a surreal psychological horror session, and then translated the lasting effects of that session back into Atomic Robo mechanics going forward.

It's not something I'd recommend on a week-by-week basis, but if you've got a solid system that usually works, it can be a lot of fun to switch it up sometimes to add something to the story that the system isn't as good at.

user61230

I'll be honest, I've never encountered any gameplay like that before.

BESW

We played totally new PCs in a one-shot using Monster of the Week to experience an adventure in the same campaign that our main PCs wouldn't be part of, to help flesh out the world and establish the sorts of things that were happening elsewhere.

Yeah, it's just sort of a thing that happened organically.

We'd gotten used to playing one-shots in various systems but also having a main campaign we kept coming back to.

And it eventually felt natural to blend the two concepts together.

user61230

That's super interesting.

user61230

Do you think it's something that would have worked without the prior context of tying a main campaign into one-shots?

BESW

I think it could, yeah.

One moment. [goes rummaging through RPG.SE]

M'rr. Maybe it was deleted.

A while back we had a question about the feasibility of running a campaign where every level characters took a level in a different system.

I've also seen people speculate about multiverse-hopping campaigns where every universe is a different system.

So it's not a concept without precedent.

My group's only 'innovation' is tying the system change to recognition that each system encourages or discourages certain kinds of play.

...actually.

user61230

6:07 AM

[is reading and thinking!]

BESW

I've seen several folks on RPG.SE and in G+ mention that they use D&D for dungeon-crawling, and switch to Fate when the PCs hit a town.

Which is a curious hybrid of location-keyed and story-keyed switching.

user61230

Feels very Skyrim-esque.

user61230

When you wander out of a city, you're suddenly hacking, slashing, and killing everything.

user61230

Wander into a city, so much as draw your sword, and guards start looking at you funny.

BESW

Which is pretty in keeping with the sense of D&D I get from the non-rule text of most editions.

So yeah. I think a multi-system campaign would be as successful as the party's buy-in to it, including needing to learn multiple systems.

(Phrasal engines like Fate would probably be easiest to switch between.)

user61230

6:15 AM

That definitely makes sense to me. Lightweight systems.

user61230

And, players who are willing to say, "hey, X makes sense, can I just go ahead and write that down?"

BESW

Also if you're using systems with progression mechanics, that might get complicated.

user61230

Thaaaat's true.

BESW

D&D and Fate level up totally differently.

Probably best to just pick one level determiner and piggyback everything else on it.

Lots of little details like that to sort out if you make hopping between systems a really big thing.

We've never had to worry about it because we don't do it that much.

user61230

Yeah, I mean, some systems seem like they're more likely to hold that better.

user61230

6:21 AM

A system like D&D is fairly sharply incompatible with non-conforming tropes.

user61230

A system like Microscope? Whatever, go ahead.

BESW

It's also worth mentioning that by the time we were swapping systems occasionally, we were also comfortable with swapping GMs within the same campaign much more frequently.

user61230

...huh.

BESW

So any artificial GM/player divide in who had what influence on the campaign had been subsumed into an attitude of collaboration.

That made it easier to talk about switching systems and get everyone's honest buy-in.

We were already talking about choices for how to shape the campaign as co-conspirators.

user61230

I have to say, you play in campaigns like nothing I've seen before.

BESW

6:24 AM

I have an unusual group in many ways, and the skill sets and priorities I bring to bear on RPGs come from unusual directions.

You've probably read this answer about part of how and why my group formed the way it has.

user61230

I actually don't think I have!

BESW

My Ruhi experience in facilitating groups with an eye toward empowering individuals to become facilitators themselves, Fate's collaborative spirit, my group's need for a laid-back attitude to regular attendance, my sadly slow realisation that my friends have awesome campaign-level ideas too, our collective interest in trying new systems AND a desire for coherent long-form character stories, my increased awareness of the different potential pitfalls and possibilities of RPGs through participating in this site...

trogdor

@BESW we had two PC's as Accelerated didn't we? Vultura and Lyon?

BESW

True, technically Vultura was a PC for most of that adventure.

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