TeX, LaTeX and Friends

@AlanMunn Quite, and the point is the left-wing argument for leaving isn't what has won (protectionism is part of both left-wing and right-wing politics, but it's the right-wing argument that's won here)

Alan Munn

@JosephWright Yes, absolutely. And that's the frightening part.

@JosephWright And it's not just the UK that's in trouble now.

Joseph Wright

4:09 AM

@AlanMunn Yes, I know

@AlanMunn The worry for me is that it's not only in the UK that people blame 'the EU' for economic issues that are not down to the EU (one can argue about the euro and the ability to devalue ...)

Alan Munn

@JosephWright Right.

Joseph Wright

@AlanMunn Domestic situation also a disaster: we'll probably not see another left-of-centre government in my lifetime

Alan Munn

@JosephWright That bad? Wow. I haven't been following those details so closely.

Joseph Wright

@AlanMunn Really. Scotland will leave (they've gone strongly for remain), and in England even before this the country is strongly right-of-centre (at least on a constituency basis), and goodness knows what it means for Wales

@AlanMunn Northern Ireland a real worry

Alan Munn

@JosephWright Ok, yes, that makes sense. And yes, N. Ireland is definitely a worry.

@JosephWright I hope this doesn't also give more voice to Trump over here.

yo'

4:51 AM

This is the saddest day for Europe since WWII. I'm scared of being consumed by Russia in the following years. Seriously.

Joseph Wright

@yo' See my comments above

yo'

@AlanMunn Another thing to worry about.

OTOH, Schwarzenberg said it well: I hope Britain will be an example to others how bad it is to leave.

Joseph Wright

@yo' Now, the interesting thing is that like many people who've really thought about this and favoured 'remain', I'm realistic about the economic hit of leaving: likely not a disaster, more a marginal loss

Of course, a marginal loss is fine if one is well-paid (as I am), but is a real problem for those at the bottom of the economic chain

yo'

@JosephWright who were most likely mostly voting leave. Call it a paradox :-/

Joseph Wright

@yo' Much like the classic working class Tory issue

yo'

5:05 AM

@JosephWright not sure what that is, but it probably doesn't matter

Joseph Wright

@yo' The Conservative ('Tory') party is the right-of-centre party in the UK, and as someone of the centre left I feel they do not act in the best interests of the poorer members of our society. So someone from a working class background who votes Tory is in my opinion voting against their own interests.

yo'

Needless to say, I'll be happy to finally see European Scotlcand :)

Joseph Wright

(On average: of course other than people like the National Front, political parties are not all bad)

yo'

@JosephWright funny, I have the same feeling about the socialists here :-)

@JosephWright so Tory is a party nickname?

Joseph Wright

@yo' Nowadays, yes. The modern-day Conservative party is viewed as the successor to the older Tory party (though it's complex, as politics 200 years ago was rather different to today). As a result, 'Tory' is used more-or-less interchangeably with 'Conservative'.

yo'

5:10 AM

@JosephWright ok, thanks.

Christian Hupfer

@JosephWright The same is true here in Germany -- many of the working class vote for the conservative and right/far right parties here :-( -- German left wing parties are a mess for more than 10 years now

Joseph Wright

@ChristianHupfer Oh indeed: one sees the same across the world

@ChristianHupfer We traditionally have relatively few significant parties: in England basically three, thought UKIP of course have made it 4 for a while (will likely fold back into the Conservatives)

@ChristianHupfer With first-past-the-post it's almost inevitable to have few real choices

Christian Hupfer

@JosephWright Yes, that pecularities of UK's election system

yo'

btw, I still don't understand how the referendum works: Who is now bound by the referendum to act? What is the power of the referendum---constitutional? If a law has to be changed in order to leave, are MPs oblidged to vote this or that way?

Joseph Wright

@ChristianHupfer No, other people use the same system

@yo' No, like most referenda we've held in the UK, this is advisory

yo'

5:15 AM

@JosephWright ok, so it may turn out void?

Joseph Wright

@yo' Sovereignty in the UK resides in the Crown-in-Parliament

@yo' Legally possible (and causing headaches), but realistically there will be a repeal of the 1972 European Communities Act

@yo' Parliament ignoring the result entirely would be a real constitutional crisis, though as the referendum is in/out, what actually happens in detail is more nuanced

yo'

@JosephWright yeah, I get it. Because for instance here, AFAIK, the referendum is a sort of a constitutional law, with strength between the constitution and standard laws

Christian Hupfer

@JosephWright Oh, we've got the Greens, the Social Democrats and the 'Left', which is the followup of the former Socialist Unity Party from former Eastern Germany (Well, the short story), all of them 'left', and the Liberal Democrats, and the Conservatives (Merkel's Party) and this dreadful AFD

Joseph Wright

@yo' We have no written constitution and common law as well

yo'

@ChristianHupfer don't ask what we've got

@JosephWright ah right, I always keep forgetting about this. In Britain, law is a law if it's been followed long enough :-)

Joseph Wright

5:18 AM

@ChristianHupfer I know :-) I'm not sure how many would reach my value of 'significant' parties (i.e. likely to form part of a government)

@yo' Yup

Christian Hupfer

:yo' All is based on the Magna Carta, which is 800 years this year, as far as I know? John Lackland, something I've got in mind, about 1216? ;-)

Joseph Wright

@ChristianHupfer People often say that, but of course this is not really true (yes, there was an agreement then, but it's not in any real way the basis of the law today)

Christian Hupfer

@JosephWright: It was meant as a 'joke', but I forgot the ;-)

Joseph Wright

Now, a practical worry: I've only just got a new passport (£72): will I have to pay for a new non-EU one in two years time?

yo'

Communists (far left and far 30 years behind), Socialists (sometimes reasonable, sometimes not), CDU (left-centered by nature), TOP09 (conservative you'd say, but IMHO reasonable conservative), ODS (right) and then populists, largest being ANO ("YES") with about 30%.

@JosephWright it depends on which countries accept your EU passport when you leave EU, so very likely yes

Joseph Wright

5:22 AM

Practical question two: how long before the various EU nationals I know who are in relationships with UK nationals get married?

Christian Hupfer

@JosephWright 72 Pounds? My German passport was only 38 euro.

Joseph Wright

@ChristianHupfer £72 + £3 for registered post

@ChristianHupfer Very cheap!

@yo' Oh, I'll have to change it, what I mean is will I have to pay or will they do it for free

Christian Hupfer

@JosephWright Well, it looks cheap too ;-)

yo'

@JosephWright CZK 600, which is about EUR 25

@JosephWright has passport ever been for free? No. So why should it now? :)

Christian Hupfer

@JosephWright Well, did HM the Queen sign it? ;-)

Joseph Wright

5:23 AM

@yo' Wow! I wonder how it's done at such a low cost (I believe ours don't make money)

@yo' It's free to get a re-issue is say you get one damaged: you get a new one for the life of the old one

yo'

@JosephWright it's not "done" that cheap, it's simply that the expenses are not covered.

Christian Hupfer

@JosephWright They spare the vowels ;-)

Joseph Wright

@yo' Ah, now you see we expect people to pay the full cost

yo'

@JosephWright oh then maybe ...

Joseph Wright

@ChristianHupfer :-)

yo'

5:24 AM

@ChristianHupfer hey! :D

Christian Hupfer

@yo' <3

Joseph Wright

@yo' I do hope so: both mine any my mum's had to be done in the last 6 weeks

yo'

now I'm sorry but I have to go do something. Long day expected.

Christian Hupfer

@yo' See you...

Joseph Wright

@yo' Have a lot of fun

I'm already tired out, so I'm not planning a long work day!

Basically didn't get any sleep

yo'

5:26 AM

@JosephWright well, I'm thinking of you (I hope I wrote it in proper English). We're looking forward to more insider's comments from you and @DavidCarlisle

Joseph Wright

@yo' which reminds me: @DavidCarlisle did you put a fiver down on Brexit?

yo'

@JosephWright I think there were many more people like that in Britain and elsewhere.

btw, just saw that GBP dropped 10% in the last ~6 months, and there's more to expect. This is really bad.

Christian Hupfer

@JosephWright I discussed with my 'students' yesterday (although I am no English/History/Economics etc. teacher of course) and I proposed: 'I am pretty sure the Britons will stay in the EU' :-(

Joseph Wright

@ChristianHupfer I really didn't know in advance of the vote: it was clearly really tight and hard to tell

yo'

@ChristianHupfer you have to come there today and say: "Sorry I was wrong. I at least hope then that you got a good sleep."

Joseph Wright

5:30 AM

@yo' :-)

Christian Hupfer

@yo' Oh I will, I will be driving in about half an hour

@JosephWright Perhaps I was lulled into my opinion because I had the impression that there's no real will to leave when I was in London some weeks ago -- but that was London 'only', of course.

Joseph Wright

@ChristianHupfer Yes, was clear that London would be much more pro-EU than the rest of England and Wales

yo'

@JosephWright and I truly hoped that this + Scotland would be enough; I keep forgetting that Scotland is "small"

however, Scotland may see a lot of English ad Welsh immigration in the following months and years :-D

Christian Hupfer

Man Turns Into Scotsman

►

3

@yo' Or like MP 'predicted' about 45 years ago ;-)

Joseph Wright

@yo' Turnout there lower than ideal, but didn't make the difference

Christian Hupfer

5:46 AM

I've got to go for a while. Till later on.

Joseph Wright

@ChristianHupfer Indeed, I refer you to my post yesterday: this is clearly a gain for the Silly Party

Christian Hupfer

@JosephWright Very Silly Party, rather ;-) Slight Silly: 0 votes ;-)

yo'

@ChristianHupfer .

Joseph Wright

@ChristianHupfer Nah, Farage is clearly Tim Biscuit Barrel

yo'

We've known the result for about 2 hours. Has Scotland already declared independency?

Joseph Wright

5:56 AM

@yo' Not yet: the SNP will be consulting internally. They don't want to (a) be too hasty (b) call another vote unless they are sure they'll win

@yo' Probably will be some time (months)

yo'

@JosephWright yeah. Well, for them, it would be optimal to "never leave EU"; this discussions will be very complicated. I'm just afraid this is actually the end of both UK and EU as we know them :-/

Joseph Wright

@yo' Yes and yes

yo'

@JosephWright and as I say, if EU ends, we will be consumed by Russia from the inside. (Probably worse fate than what UK faces)

now I really go. Bye!

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Well this is worse than 1992

Gibraltar is shafted

David Carlisle

6:37 AM

@JosephWright really depressed this morning

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle I bet

@DavidCarlisle I'm depressed and knackered

David Carlisle

@JosephWright oxford(shire) was 70% to stay in....

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Did better than my area then (I vote in Daventry, after they moved us out of Wellingborough)

@DavidCarlisle Where I am now voted for remain (an island of yellow in a sea of blue)

@DavidCarlisle Waiting for the PM then will head to work, where it will be pretty sombre

Joseph Wright

7:05 AM

/me Googles How to get an Irish passport

Johannes_B

Unfortunately nobody is able to receive satisfying results using the procedure in more complex cases like the latex wikibook. This is why I still develop and update my own software for approx 10 year now. Currently there seem to be extremely many extremely professional computer since experts on this planet, not to mention artificially intelligent masterminds.

But for each of them creating a good looking PDF version of a wikibook seems to be a task so trivial, that publishing a such a pdf version, might cause a significant loss of reputation. But for me as an ultra long term unemployed worker in a cow shed, I got no reputation to loose an will thus publish updated pdf version upon request. wikibook

\[
 a \xleftrightarrow[under]{over} b\\
%
 A \xLeftarrow[under]{over} B\\
%
 B \xRightarrow[under]{over} C\\
%
 C \xLeftrightarrow[under]{over} D\\

Johannes_B

7:43 AM

@JosephWright Copyright removed from the posted class file: tex.stackexchange.com/questions/315702/minitoc-problem

Johannes_B

8:20 AM

@ChristianHupfer german Wikibook about titlepages: Discussion page: Die Vorlage (sic!) funktioniert nicht mit deutschen Umlauten.

@David I was notified by email about this, a had no choice, i had to read that template question. :-<

Christian Hupfer

8:48 AM

@JosephWright I am hopeful for Scotland to declare independancy, successfully, but Northern Ireland? Isn't that 'country' too small

Paulo Cereda

Oh no, BREXIT

David Carlisle

@ChristianHupfer size isn't really the issue in that case. History is more the problem

Paulo Cereda

Oh boy, I won't be able to go to UK like this...

Christian Hupfer

@DavidCarlisle Sure, that's another aspect of whole desaster

I've to go again

Till later on

Joseph Wright

9:34 AM

@ChristianHupfer Issue there is union with the south

David Carlisle

@JosephWright something to discuss on the team skype call:(

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda Makes no odds to you

@DavidCarlisle Indeed

David Carlisle

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Great news for those of us going to France in 10 days time ...

David Carlisle

I wonder what currency my pension savings are in.....

@JosephWright I hope you planned ahead and bought some euros yesterday:-)

Joseph Wright

9:41 AM

@DavidCarlisle No

@DavidCarlisle I never do

David Carlisle

@JosephWright I agree, planning ahead is an over-rated concept

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle :-)

David Carlisle

@JosephWright do we have a full list of ptex primitives in the l3 sources?

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Yes

David Carlisle

@JosephWright do we know what they all do?

Joseph Wright

9:45 AM

@DavidCarlisle Probably not

  \__kernel_primitive:NN \autospacing                 \ptex_autospacing:D
  \__kernel_primitive:NN \autoxspacing                \ptex_autoxspacing:D
  \__kernel_primitive:NN \dtou                        \ptex_dtou:D
  \__kernel_primitive:NN \euc                         \ptex_euc:D
  \__kernel_primitive:NN \ifdbox                      \ptex_ifdbox:D
  \__kernel_primitive:NN \ifddir                      \ptex_ifddir:D
  \__kernel_primitive:NN \ifmdir                      \ptex_ifmdir:D
  \__kernel_primitive:NN \iftbox                      \ptex_iftbox:D

  \__kernel_primitive:NN \disablecjktoken             \uptex_disablecjktoken:D
  \__kernel_primitive:NN \enablecjktoken              \uptex_enablecjktoken:D
  \__kernel_primitive:NN \forcecjktoken               \uptex_forcecjktoken:D
  \__kernel_primitive:NN \kchar                       \uptex_kchar:D
  \__kernel_primitive:NN \kchardef                    \uptex_kchardef:D
  \__kernel_primitive:NN \kuten                       \uptex_kuten:D
  \__kernel_primitive:NN \ucs                         \uptex_ucs:D

@DavidCarlisle ^^^

Ooh, there is \ifydir

Nasser

I have finally found the most robust way to do Tex<-->lua. Much better and simpler than anything I've seen. I wonder if I should keep this a secret.

David Carlisle

@JosephWright yes I think Hironobu Yamashita has come up with a plan for testing the direction and fixing AtBeginDvi in the platex base

@Nasser yes

Paulo Cereda

@Nasser definitely.

:)

Nasser

OK, will keep it a secret then. It so simple and powerful and it works for everything. Amazing no one have thought of this method before in everything I've seen so far.

David Carlisle

@JosephWright I was half wondering to make a one line english description of each primitive, but I couldn't even figure out what encoding the tex sources of the manual are in, utf-8. shift jis, euc-something all just showed unknown glyph mess

@Nasser you shouldn't of course believe everything said in this chat....

@Nasser probably just like leaving the EU, what could go wrong?

Nasser

9:51 AM

I need to patent this method first, before I broadcast to the lualatex world.

I have been working on it for last 10 hrs. It works so well, it is amazing, yet it is so simple also.

David Carlisle

@Nasser go on then, do tell, we can see you want to...

Nasser

The current Tex-Lua interface as everyone uses here is not reliable. I found many problems with it.

@DavidCarlisle I will write a small note about it and send a link. I think you'll like it because it is so simple, yet it works for everything. I am now changing one large document to use this method.

Now I hide all my tex4ht and Latex formating code in one lua function. in tex4ht mode I use javascript for formating, in tex, I use listings.

David Carlisle

@Nasser there are not that many ways available in luatex to get from tex to lua, just \directlua and callbacks in one direction and printing or node interface in the other.

Nasser

@DavidCarlisle I mean sending data itself from tex->lua and send result back fro lua to tex.

David Carlisle

@Nasser as I say there can not really be any new ways there, just wrappers around the documented interfaces, unless you change the luatex program itself.

Nasser

10:00 AM

@DavidCarlisle when I write the note, will send you link. I'll show a simple example also. I am not taking about the function call. I am talking about the verbatim data and sending the latex code itself back to tex. I do not use tex.print() or any of that any more. I found problems. so I bypass all of this.

David Carlisle

@Nasser actually verbatim data is the easiest to send back, as you can just put it straight into a token register or macro from lua, but generating non-verbatim stuff is much easier to use tex.print variants so that tex re-parses the lua string and generates the tex command sequences.

Nasser

@DavidCarlisle I tried the register method. I saw how it is done in a paper by Hans Hagen tug.org/TUGboat/tb26-2/hagen.pdf and it works ok I guess, but what I do is simpler. Send stuff from lua back to tex, I bypass tex.print. It is very fussy and had problem with some of the code I was sending back. So do not use tex.print either.

any way, I am very happy now, and everything works. Lua programming is much nicer than Latex macro programming.

I wonder if it good time to go shopping now in the UK, since the Dollar is so much stronger today vs. the Sterling? One can buy much more today in Dollars there after BRexit.

David Carlisle

10:18 AM

@Nasser it's just too depressing to even think about.

Nasser

@DavidCarlisle but it is great opportunity to buy cheap Sterling now, since the Dollar is so much stronger now. I am even thinking of moving back to Liverpool and buy a nice apt there. Exchange rate now is very attractive.

David Carlisle

@Nasser but if all your cash is already in sterling that is not really a great advantage....

Nasser

@DavidCarlisle no, I live in the US. The Dollar today is much stronger than the Sterling. That is what I mean. Today is good time to buy cheap UK things. Always look at the bright side :)

David Carlisle

@Nasser I don't care about your cash... I was more concerned about mine:-)

Nasser

@DavidCarlisle But do not worry about it too much, you still have the same amount of cash, it is just worth much less today, about 10% less according to the news.

Joseph Wright

10:33 AM

@Nasser Who are you, Harold Wilson?

David Carlisle

@Nasser not necessarily a useful definition of "same" in a global economy, but anyway more concerned about the country than my cash, to be honest.

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Indeed

Nasser

Dow futures are down over 500 points today. OMG !

David Carlisle

10:51 AM

@JosephWright skype in 10min?

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Yup

Paulo Cereda

11:40 AM

@barbarabeeton: I understand this might not be your cup of tea, but the install instructions for installing Lucida mention updmap-sys --enable Map lucida.map at some point. I do believe it's updmap-sys --enable MixedMap=lucida.map. Maybe I could report?

@DavidCarlisle Are you guys coming to the Olympic games ~~and get zika~~?

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda One of our golfers isn't

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright Why?

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/36595631

@PauloCereda Zika

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright Oh.

Even I wouldn't want to be in Rio.

barbara beeton

12:52 PM

@PauloCereda -- it's certainly worth asking on the lucida list (lucida@tug.org). we use lucida here, but how fonts are updated is nonstandard.

Paulo Cereda

@barbarabeeton Oh thanks, Barbara!

wilx

Heh, I would not want to be in Rio regardless of the Olympic games. :)

barbara beeton

@JosephWright, @DavidCarlisle -- heartfelt condolences. i was hoping for better sense. (same as i hope for here in the upcoming election. i am depressed and discouraged.)

egreg

@barbarabeeton Boris Johnson as British prime minister and we-know-who as US President? Oh, my!

Joseph Wright

@egreg You know Boris holds a US passport too

egreg

12:57 PM

@JosephWright Why didn't you send him home in time? ;-)

Joseph Wright

@egreg Oh don't

egreg

@JosephWright A nice swim! To go meeting with his friend Donald!

Paulo Cereda

@barbara: sent, thank you.

barbara beeton

@PauloCereda -- message arrived. looks good. i'm sure there's someone there who can give an authoritative answer.

Paulo Cereda

@barbarabeeton Thank you again!

Joseph Wright

1:08 PM

How much experience do people have with Google Hangouts?

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright A little.

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda Reliable?

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright Yes, I think so.

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda Skype's been messing us about, so we are thinking of this for the next team meeting

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright What happened?

Joseph Wright

1:11 PM

@PauloCereda We have issues where not everyone can join, with Skype saying that they need to update their client

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright Oh hold the phone. I will poke you.

David Carlisle

@JosephWright used it a few times

Christian Hupfer

1:36 PM

@JosephWright Using it regularly with some ... TeX/Duck bloke from here ;-)

ebo

2:49 PM

@DavidCarlisle : about tex.stackexchange.com/a/162329/64454

It is strange, because when I use the intro.tex, a.tex etc. files that you define + this code as main.tex

\documentclass{scrbook}
\KOMAoptions{%
twoside,% - use recto/verso (and thus right/left pages)
open=right% - start chapter on a new page
}
\includeonly{a}
\begin{document}
\include{intro}
\include{a}
\include{b}
\include{conclusion}
\end{document}

and when I first compile with \includeonly{a} commented, and then without commenting it, my pdf starts with a blank page...

could it be KOMA related?

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle: On the miktex list there is a report of a problem "after the last update of graphics". The following document, when compiled with latex-dvips-ps2pdf is not correclty cropped -- I can reproduce it with tl16, in tl15 it worked fine.

\documentclass{standalone}
\usepackage{pst-circ}
\begin{document}
\psset{unit=1cm}

\begin{pspicture}[showgrid = true](-5, -5)(7, 1)

\pnodes
(-1, 0){D2}
(0, -2){FGEN1}
(0, -1){FGEN1in}
(1, 0){PID1}
(3, 0){PID1out}
(3, 0){HV1}
(5, 0){HV1out}

\nput[labelsep = -.75]{0}{D2}{D2}
\mixer[tripolestyle = bottom, tripoleconfig = right, inputarrow = true,
labeloffset = -1.5](D2)(PID1)(FGEN1in)%
{}{}
\oscillator[output = top, inputarrow = false](FGEN1)%
{X}{}
\amplifier[inputarrow = true](PID1)(PID1out){PID}

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer it'll be the pagestyle special I guess, will look this evening (is it fixed if you comment out the \special{pagesize in dvips.def ?

Christian Hupfer

@JosephWright Which union? Reunification with the Republic of Ireland or do you 'just' mean the border to the EU then?

David Carlisle

@ebo possibly (I don't really know those classes) you could always ask a question with a reproducible example on the main site

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle Yes, I guessed that already. I just tested: without the \special it works again. dvi/dvips is really a pain in this respect ...

David Carlisle

3:05 PM

@UlrikeFischer I think the special is the right thing to add, I'll guess I need to look what standalone is doing (not that repeatedly pinging Martin that it's broken in luatex has had any effect)

@UlrikeFischer does [nosetpagesize] documentclass option get passed to graphics at the right time to avoid the special (sorry can't test now)

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle: found a way to make emacs less annoying. See bottom. :)

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda viper mode?

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle evil. :)

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda same thing,

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle :D

Ulrike Fischer

3:12 PM

@DavidCarlisle graphics/x isn't loaded by the example, so options doesn't work, but this works:

\RequirePackage[nosetpagesize]{graphics}
\documentclass{standalone}

@DavidCarlisle Loading graphicx/s after the class works too.

ebo

@DavidCarlisle ok, I'll do it! Thank you (-:

Paulo Cereda

Richard Stallman (as St IGNUcius) : Emacs vs Vi

►

@DavidCarlisle ^^

egreg

@PauloCereda VI VI VI is the editor of the Beast

Paulo Cereda

@egreg I blame the Romans. :)

egreg

@PauloCereda Using vi is not a sin, but a penance

Paulo Cereda

3:23 PM

@egreg You need a halo for your TeX lectures too. :)

egreg

@PauloCereda I'm a sinner, as I use Mac OS

Paulo Cereda

@egreg Below the surface, it is Darwin, it is BSD. :)

egreg

@PauloCereda I don't think RS would approve and he would assign me a penance. Oh, no!

Paulo Cereda

@egreg ooooh

@egreg this is an interesting hypothesis on why David is secretly a vim user.

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda ^^

Paulo Cereda

3:36 PM

@DavidCarlisle WOW

Looks legit. :)

@David: maybe it's worth to edit your .vimrc file to set a smaller parsep. :)

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda what are those ~ for, do they serve any purpose whatsoever?

ebo

@DavidCarlisle FYI: my bad, my issue was actually solved by using the `newclude` package... as you suggested in your answer! (I actually tried it before commenting, but another artifact in my code made me think it didn't work. But while creating the MWE, I fixed it all.) So no question for me this time... but a debugged code (-;
Thx & sorry for distrubing!

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle Empty line indicator. :)

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda emacs has a cunning plan to denote empty lines; it shows a line with nothing in it.

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle bah, it will never catch. :)

Christian Hupfer

3:52 PM

@PauloCereda: Apparently, @DavidCarlisle is using fraud software ;-)

Paulo Cereda

@ChristianHupfer LOLOLOL

David Carlisle

@runartrollet what do you mean, "egreg" :-) — David Carlisle 28 secs ago

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle You don't look like a green square. :)

barbara beeton

5:54 PM

@JosephWright -- would be appreciated it you can fix this: Bad link provided to a question already identified as a duplicate

David Carlisle

7:33 PM

@UlrikeFischer I think the option will work (one day) standalone loads xcolor and xcolor loads dvips.def without setting up the nosetpagesize option, It (now) doesn't give an error but it always does true, but Uwe Kern mailed me this morning to say he'll add that option next time. but I'm looking to see if I can fix in standalone. (It's the issue raised on the texlive list, the file ends up with two pagesize specials, so with dvips the first one wins. standalone ought to be able to control the order

David Carlisle

7:52 PM

@UlrikeFischer the issue in your example is that pstricks loads xcolor, but in general standalone could always have failed as it adds a pagesize spacoal very late (in end[document} and dvips ignores all but the first. this changes it so it adds the special still in begin document but at the start of the dvi, as long as you are still on first page.

\documentclass{standalone}
\makeatletter
\def\sa@papersize{%
    \global\let\sa@papersize\relax
    \global\sa@yoffset=\paperheight
\global \setbox \@begindvibox
    \vbox{%
    \special{papersize=\the\paperwidth,\the\paperheight}%
    \special{ps::%
        \@percentchar\@percentchar HiResBoundingBox: 0 0 \the\paperwidth\space\the\paperheight^^J%
    }%
\unvbox \@begindvibox }%
}
\makeatletter

Nasser

9:14 PM

Is this question for real or is it a joke? I can't make up what it is tex.stackexchange.com/questions/316516/… ?

one problem I found with using SVG for graphics, is that they can be much larger in size than png. almost 3-4 times larger. I use software called scour, which tries to clean up the svg images after I convert the pdf to svg, but it is still very large. This makes loading the web page slow. png images are much smaller, but they do not look as good ofcourse.

egreg

@Nasser Stylistic question: off topic if not changed.

David Carlisle

@Nasser for line drawings svg ought to be comparable or smaller than the png really especially if you don't include fonts

Nasser

@DavidCarlisle it is not line drawing. These are images generated from Matlab. I save the Matlab plot as pdf. Then convert it to SVG using pdf2svg. The image size is huge, compared to if I save to png. I use scour, which cleans up a little and helps removes so much un-needed stuff in svg.

Ever the svg size, compared to the pdf size, is double the pdf size. There is a lot of discussion on the net about this. How to clean up SVG.

David Carlisle

@Nasser yes but is it a scalable plot drawn as svg lines or is it really just a bitmap dressed up as svg? just as with eps a "real eps" is scalable but some eps are just inefficiently encoded bitmaps wrapped in a postscript header

Nasser

@DavidCarlisle it seems like actual SVG, when I open it with the editor.

I use pdf2svg

Not png or eps dressed as svg

David Carlisle

9:29 PM

@Nasser matlab can write svg directly can't it?

@Nasser same applies to pdf is it a scalable plot or is it a bitmap?

Nasser

@DavidCarlisle well, since I need the pdf file for lualatex and the svg for tex4ht, I export Matlab plots to pdf, then convert to svg. As far as I know, Matlab does not export to SVG, but there are external function I saw on the net that can do this. But since I have pdf2svg, I did not have need for it. I am sure Matlab exports to true PDF and not bitmap dressed as pdf.

David Carlisle

@Nasser I just checked the matlab doc for print and it lists svg, it's likely to be much cleaner svg than going via pdf (one would hope so) but in a web page you can be far more lax with fonts letting them use the prevailing css settings from the web page, I'd guess pdf2svg is making svg fonts for any fonts embedded in the pdf and doing that again for each image

Nasser

@DavidCarlisle thanks, I saw this now., when I searched last time, it said no support. mathworks.com/matlabcentral/answers/… will try to export Matlab plots to svg and see if I get smaller sizes. I do not know anything about using CSS setting and what You mention there about fonts and all that. Too advanced for me. But will try matlab export to svg and see. thanks

I know that with Mathematica export to SVG, it puts a bitmap dressed as SVG! This is known issue. So I hope Matlab does not do the same. Will check soon.

David Carlisle

9:45 PM

@Nasser well it's just same as text in a paragraph, if you typeset \section{abc}hello to pdf the resulting pdf has embedded fonts for the heading and the text but you probably don't want the html to exactly model that in html but just make <h2>abc</h2>hello same with svg parts, if you embed the fonts the size of the font data is likely to massively outweigh the size of the actual plot.

Nasser

lua string continuation uses 2 dots .. while in Matlab, line continutation is three dots ... so I keep making mistakes each time I switch now between lua programming and Matlab missing a . or adding one, Argg :)

Nasser

10:10 PM

@DavidCarlisle guess what. Matlab svg export is just png dressed as SVG ! Same as what Mathematica does. This is what I was afraid of. So I have to use pdf2svg

David Carlisle

@Nasser ;-)

Nasser

They tell you they export to SVG, but all what they do is put bit map inside file with .svg extension. This is what Mathematica also does

It is all about marketing I guess.

Nasser

10:58 PM

any one knows if I delete an answer, will it stay in my deleted answers folder thing in this forum or will it go away? sometimes I like to clean an answer but have no time. If I delete it, I see it remain in the recently deleted answers. But not sure how long it will stay there. Any one knows?

may be this is for meta site question, but thought someone here might know.

Paulo Cereda

@Nasser I think it stays in the thread, but not in the list of answers in your profile...

You'd need to keep track of the whole link... :(

Nasser

@PauloCereda oh, I see. This is good, as long as it stays there. I just have to remember the link. This is good. Saves me having to save it to my PC ,. etc.... thanks

Paulo Cereda

@Nasser Oh my pleasure. :)

Nasser

@michal.h21 if you are around. I am stuck on something and need your expert help. I noticed when I use make4ht, and use -d option, that it copies all the graphics that are SVG, but it does not copy any graphics that are PNG. I am not sure what I need in my .cfg file to make it also copy the PNG images over to the destination folder as well. I get confused about this in .cfg and what to do.

@michal.h21 i.e. in Latex when I do \includegraphics{image} and the image is svg, it gets copied OK, but when I do \includegraphics{image.png}, it does not get copied. This is what I have in my .cfg
%make sure this below is here, this will make it resize the png image
%to what is in the includegraphics command
\Configure{graphics*}
        {png}
        {%
           \Picture[pict]{\csname Gin@base\endcsname .png
              \space width="\expandafter\the\csname Gin@req@width\endcsname"
}%
}%

@michal.h21 if you think I should ask this in tex4ht mailing list, please let me know.

Johannes_B

11:47 PM

What? latex-community.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=94869#p94869

Alan Munn

@Nasser Yes it will hang around, and you can undelete it.

Nasser

@AlanMunn thanks!

Paulo Cereda

@cfr: Cwac!

Nasser

I really think there is a problem in lualatex, I just can't make a MWE, it does not fail in MWE, but in my main file, sometimes after running for sometimes, I get this strange error
warning (pdf backend): ignoring duplicate destination with the name 'lstnumber
.1.0.5'

warning (pdf backend): ignoring duplicate destination with the name 'lstnumber
.1.0.6'
)
Overfull \hbox (2.61273pt too wide) in paragraph at lines 13--13
[][]
./fromLua.tex:13: Misplaced \noalign.
\pagebreak ->\noalign
{\ifnum `}=0\fi \@testopt {\LT@no@pgbk -}4

cfr

@PauloCereda Cwac!

Nasser

11:54 PM

How is one supposed to debug these things?

cfr

@Nasser Technically, it is always possible to make an MWE. It is just that a minimal example sometimes turns out to be rather large.

Paulo Cereda

@cfr Long time no see! How are you?

Johannes_B

@Nasser The answer is so obvious, that you won't like it: Prepare a minimal working example. This will lead to three different MWEs, one for the links, one for the overfull box, and one for the longtable error.

cfr

@PauloCereda No longer a European citizen, apparently. I want to know if 'my country has gone insane' is considered sufficient grounds for asylum.

7

Nasser

good news! I was able to make a MWE now! THe reason is, it works on windows under miktex, same code. But on Linux, I see the error. Same file !

On linux, I am using TL 2016, but on windows, I think it is still older lualatex. Miktex

good news, I have a MWE !!

cfr

11:59 PM

30608637 Llongyfarchiadau!

Transcript for

$TeX - LaTeX$ TeX, LaTeX and Friends