The h Bar

3:22 PM

@SideshowBob I am both a quantum mechanic and a programmer. You can find my email in my profile page.

@DanielSank thx for effort will look it over, am behind filesharing firewall at moment. :( ... while lots of interest feel like there is also already too much criticism of the informal prj & ppl putting words in my mouth, my instinct is to do less when criticized rather than more aka "double down". think that avoiding criticism will be impossible esp as prj gets "larger". think the current ad has its flaws but is acceptable to start, dont want to see current effort wasted, still not at 6v. :|

DanielSank

@vzn Filesharing firewall? This is a google docs document. You can view it in your browser. Did you even click on the link?

@vzn I do not understand why you think criticism is so bad.

> "The instinct is to do less when criticised..."

Um, ok @vzn, so let me explain something to you: that is a terrible attitude.

Secret

vzn

@DanielSank am not against the criticism, just do not feel it all requires immediate action. am taking all feedback into acct. plz do not criticize my demonstrably proactive attitude.

DanielSank

People wouldn't bother to criticize unless they think the idea is worth their time to criticize.

@vzn Oh, really? And what of my effort to enumerate the possible strategies for the AMA?

Secret

3:26 PM

Above diagram showed how I understood the cheap renewable energy resulting in over subsidy of the government issue
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2088303-why-cheap-green-energy-could-derail-the-renewable-revolution/

DanielSank

Or how about the community ad I drafted, and which you used?

Not proactive?

vzn

@DanielSank have been on SE a long time now close to ~½ decade. see how things go around here. want to focus on something achievable/ short term not pie-in-the-sky.

Secret

PARAPHASE
So if there are so many solar cells producing energy in surpass of demand, the threshold before people think electricity is expensive drops, thus it becomes harder to sell.
Therefore governments have to pay these investors an extra amount of money in order for them to maintain profit (hence not a free market)
this could be a serious economic problem that can bring the renewable revolution to a halt
as this put pressure to the government and they have to cut the subsideries.
Therefore in order to maintain profit when subsideries drop, the installation of solar panals have to contin…

vzn

@DanielSank let me get to your writeup tonite or so. others are free to react too ofc.

DanielSank

@vzn Oh! so you can access it?

vzn

3:28 PM

@DanielSank not yet as stated due to limitations of internet connection. tonite.

DanielSank

@vzn Did you try to click on it?

It's in the star list.

vzn

@DanielSank networkworld.com/article/2187862/mobile-apps/…

← starred it

Secret

The analogy of this with thermodynamics:
The reservoir is always dropping, yet the demand in the general sense (demand for work in the heat engine, the need to press down the cost of solar cells further for the block diagram that showed the interaction in the market) keeps on rising

Eventually both systems will reach a point where the demand cannot be satisfied anymore and they will halt and no more desirable products (profit for the block diagram, work for the heat engine)

DanielSank

@vzn That doesn't answer my question.

And it's four years old.

Secret

block diagram thinking cause me to draw a lot of analogy between economics, finance and thermodynamics, and the money acts like heat in some sense

vzn

3:32 PM

@DanielSank have you heard of a proxy/ firewall?

DanielSank

@vzn Yes.

user116211

@vzn: are you having problem opening that?

vzn

5 mins ago, by vzn

@DanielSank not yet as stated due to limitations of internet connection. tonite.

user116211

@vzn okay... my speed now 1mbps.... opened within a sec ;/

DanielSank

By the way, @vzn, so far your proactivism has consisted mostly of complaining in the chat room and posting the community ad that I drew. Your statements that you're being all proactive and everyone else is not is absurd.

I hope you will reconsider you communication style.

What you are doing recently is not effective.

vzn

3:35 PM

@DanielSank DS, this is not gonna be pulled off by everyone criticizing each other & turning on each other :(

DanielSank

@vzn Criticism is not "turning on each other".

vzn

@DanielSank sigh

DanielSank

I'm sorry that you have such a negative opinion of criticism.

vzn

@DanielSank just dont feel like dealing with every item immediately ok? otherwise it will never happen. we are all volunteers, this is getting very timeconsuming :(

DanielSank

@MAFIA36790 The problem, according to @vzn, is that his network blocks google drive.

> otherwise it will never happen

False.

@vzn Very time consuming? What have you spent time on?

You used my drawing to post an ad. That's it.

Secret

3:38 PM

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360544212001934
Ok it appears there exists such thing, thermoeconomics, but it is not considered as mainstream for economics people

David Z

I will say there is something to be said for just doing stuff - if you wait for plans to fully come together, you can be waiting a long time. That being said, planning does help improve the chance of success.

In any case, this interview/AMA/whatever is up to you all to organize. All I'm saying is that, when it comes time to happen, you can ask a mod to advertise it in the site sidebar and/or create a chat event.

ACuriousMind

@Slereah lol...that user is persistent with their werewolves, here's another question about them.

Obliv

what does a bijection onto a set actually do to the set? Say $\tau: \omega \to \omega$ where $\omega = \{1,2,...,n\}$ lets say $\tau(1) = 3$ does that mean $\tau$ replaces the 3 with a 1 and vice versa if $\tau(3) = 1$?

ACuriousMind

@Obliv ...what?

user116211

@ACuriousMind Did OP delete it?

ACuriousMind

3:46 PM

What do you mean "what does it do"?

It's a function.

user116211

Hmm.

Obliv

i'm reading that the symmetric group $S_{\Omega}$ is a set of the permutations of the set $\Omega$ and I just want to be clear what that means.

John Rennie

0

Q: Can a balloon in fly without tearing change its surface topology?

It is very well known that an inflated balloon in fly without tearing will not change its surface topology, the elastic deformations in its surface will be like "smooth transformations" in its surface hence its surface topology will remain constant. Then if an observed object in fly have Variabl...

topology

Woo woo, loony alert!

Obliv

okay @acuri so it just replaces the set with the bijection's image?

if that is the right way to use those terms

ACuriousMind

@Obliv I don't know what that means.

A "permutation" is just the name we give to the bijections of sets to themselves.

If you want to visualize it, you can view a permutation as "reordering" or "switching" the elements.

Secret

3:49 PM

@Obliv $\tau (1)=3$ means $\tau$ maps 1 to 3. Since it is bijective, it means there exists $\tau^{-1}$ that can reverse it. Since $\tau$ is an element of the symmetric group $S_{\Omega}$, its inverses are also in $S_{\Omega}$

Obliv

ok nvm i get it

ACuriousMind

:29866923 What? a "permutation of a set" is just another name for a "bijection of a set onto itself". You just asked if a bijection of a set onto itself leads to a bijection of a set onto itself...

Obliv

i know

Secret

yes, there are multiple elements in $S_{\Omega}$ that reorder the elements in the set $\omega$

e.g. (123), (12), (23), (321), (13), $1_{S_{3}}$ are elements of $S_{3}$

Obliv

okay makes sense @secret

so each permutation of $\Omega$ is written as a set? The elements of the group $S_n$ are sets, then? @secret

ACuriousMind

3:56 PM

@Obliv No

They are written as what we call cycles

Obliv

oh i see. like 2 paragraphs below they label them as cycles. going to keep reading then. ty @secret & @acuri

Secret

The elements of permutation are like maps from one element to another. They can be cyclic like 1 -> 2, 2->3, 3 -> 1, or some of these can map back to themselves e.g. (12) means 1->2, 2->1 and 3->3

ACuriousMind

The elements of a set with n elements are written $\{1,2,\dots,n\}$ in this notation, and the permutation denoted by the cycle $(2 4 6)$ does $2\mapsto 4,4\mapsto 6, 6 \mapsto 2$ and is the identity on all other elements.

@Obliv ...finishing the introductory section before running off and asking questions is always a wise move :P

Secret

@ Acuriousmind ...speaking about permutations, I actually found a way to visualise them as some kind of digraphs (and showed that it works by using it to reproduce the product of permutations, and also proving the transposition decomposition identity of cycles)

But I will show this later, as despite its robustness, I have not run the test through the more abstract cases yet thus it will only confuse others

DanielSank

@DavidZ I think >0 minutes preparation is a good idea.

Did you take a look at the three formats enumerated in that document?

Secret

4:05 PM

@Acuriousmind Anyway, do you think there exists some kind of analogy between economic systems and thermodynamic systems?

as both involve stuff moving in and stuff moving out a system

ACuriousMind

I seem to recall that people do in fact model economies as thermodynamics systems.

Beyond that, I have no opinion on the matter

David Z

@DanielSank I haven't looked. Like I said (or at least meant to say), I'm mostly staying out of the planning. It's up to vzn and you and whoever to work out the details.

Remember I'm also technically on vacation this week :-P

DanielSank

@DavidZ Yes, but the formats I'm considering may or may not be technically possible on SE.

I'll make a meta post.

David Z

ah, yeah, that's a good way to get feedback on that stuff

Secret

4:26 PM

*Brain temporary shut down, currently reading it to see if it is sensible or exaggerated or crank*
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0262407916309046

(and yes, for some reason, newscientist has a sciencedirect page)

comments
1. I don't buy the argument that free will is an axiom, it seemed grossly unjustified
2. Chaos is deterministic
3. I don't understand the argument of the non physical existence of real numbers. what about complex numbers, then?
4. His notion of flowing time requires the copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics
5. If free will is what decide what the system to collapse into under the copenhagen interpretation, then how do all the collapses induced by all the free will of all observers in general come together to provide a unified, determinstic looking reality that we all perce…

(P.S. Brain shut down because I am a massive fan of flowing time and free will)
The comments do showcase how I often have to deal with my pet theories produced from my anticipation of things I like, and the result is the more I want something to be true, the harsher my attitude to it in trying to shot it down

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