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12:27 AM
@MikeMiller I thought a bit but I don't know how to fix this. Is it complicated?
 
No. But it is in G&P.
 
I guessed, but I was trying to prove it on my own. Ah well.
I guess more than what's in chapter 1 is needed for this, unless I am being dumb.
 
Both of those can be false.
 
Hmm. Now that I think of it I can probably guess what may be a right kind of argument.
The critical points are the troublesome point. If $x$ is some critical point of $f$, if I homotope $f$ itself to some $g$ so that $g$ is a submersion near $x$ (I vaguely remember one could do it, but I am not sure). Then since $f$ and $g$ are homotopic, preimage cardinality of regular values of both $f$ and $g$ in an nbhd $U$ of $x$ are the same.
In particular this seems to deal with critical values $x$ so that any nbhd $U$ of $x$ is disconnected by the critical set $S$, where my previous argument can never tell if two points however close to $x$ lying on different path components have the same preimage cardinality or not.
By critical point I meant critical value. Sorry about that.
 
why are the preimages of regular values the same cardinality?
 
12:40 AM
you mean for homotopic maps?
 
yes
I find your argument completely opaque in a number of ways
 
when I say preimage cardinality, I really mean mod 2 cardinality by the way.
which is easy to prove. suppose $H : M \times I \to N$ is some homotopy between $f$ and $g$, and assume $x$ is a regular value of both $f$ and $g$. If $H$ moreover is a submersion near $x$, then $H^{-1}(x)$ is a cobordism (since preimage is a manifold) between $f^{-1}(x)$ and $g^{-1}(x)$. So it has to be a bunch of circles and a bunch of intervals. It's easy to see from this that $\#f^{-1}(x) = \#g^{-1}(x)$ mod 2.
Now, why should $H$ be a submersion in the first place?
Well, it need not be.
So take some nbhd $U$ of $x$ where both $f$ and $g$ are local submersions. Choose some regular value $p$ of $H$ in $U$.
$\#f^{-1}(x) = \#f^{-1}(p) = \#g^{-1}(p) = \#g^{-1}(x)$, the middle equality is mod 2.
 
Where does $U$ live?
 
Well, in the codomain manifold $N$.
 
What does it mean that $f$ is a local submersion "on $U$"?
 
12:48 AM
Sorry, I mean $f$ and $g$ are canonical submersions on $U$. I am messing up terminologies. Submersion theorem guarantees that there is such a $U$.
 
Why?
 
If $f : M \to N$ is some submersion so that $f(y) = x$, then submersion theorem says that I can choose charts $U$ around $y$ and $V$ around $x$ and coordinates $(y^1, \cdots, y^n)$ and $(x^1, \cdots, x^m)$ so that $f$ is given by killing off the last $n - m$ coordinates.
Or are you asking me to prove this?
 
@BalarkaSen I'm asking you to tell me how this actually follows from the submersion theorem.
OK, I guess you should tell me what you mean by "$f$ and $g$ are canonical submersions on $U$".
 
I mean it appropriate local coordinates $f, g$ are given by killing off the last couple coordinates, i.e. it's a map $\Bbb R^n \to \Bbb R^m$ with $(x_1, \cdots, x_n) \mapsto (x_1, \cdots, x_m)$.
 
In appropriate coordinates where?
 
12:53 AM
The point being that there is an nbhd $U$ of $x$ guaranteed by this where every point is a regular value.
 
OK, I'm too frustrated to continue. Yes, the map is a submersion at every point of $f^{-1}(x)$. (You never once said that it's true at every point in the preimage; you should have.) Why is it true that there's an open nbhd $U$ of $x$ such that $f$ is a submersion on $f^{-1}(U)$?
 
Right, oops, I see now what I missed. Apologies. OK, if $f : M \to N$ is a map from a compact manifold $M$ then $f^{-1}(x)$, being a 0-manifold, is a finite discrete set. Since for every $y \in f^{-1}(x)$, there are nbhds $U_y$ of $y$ and $V_y$ of $x$ with $f|_{U_y}$ being submersions, I can take $A = \bigcap V_y$, which is open and $f : f^{-1}(A) \to A$ becomes a submersion, I think.
For noncompact domain this becomes a bit more messy, I suppose.
 
Unconvinced. When you take $U$, why isn't there some new point $z$ off somewhere in the distance?
Like, why does every preimage of some sufficiently small set $U$ have to be near the points in the preimage of $x$?
 
Because that's how we constructed $A = \bigcap V_y$ (which I suppose what you're calling $U$, I think)? Preimage $f^{-1}(a)$ for every $a \in A \subset V_y$ lies in the union of nbhds $U_y$ of $y \in f^{-1}(x)$. All of this works out because there are finitely many points in the preimage, hence $A$ is open, but I guess that is not the point you raise.
If you're still unconvinced, please let me know. I'll think about this carefully tomorrow morning knowing I am thinking something wrong right now due to brain being half-asleep.
 
1:11 AM
Consider the circle as $\Bbb R/\Bbb Z$. Consider the obvious map from $(-\varepsilon,1+\varepsilon)$. Then at $[\varepsilon] \in S^1$, what you want to do does not work.
Why does your proof not apply to this case?
 
At a glance, I would note that $(-\epsilon, 1 + \epsilon)$ is not compact, which was my hypothesis. But I really need preimage of $[\epsilon]$ to be finite, which this seems to satisfy. I believe this means I should go to sleep. You seem to be right.
 
You never used the compactness hypothesis, was my point.
I think you would be healthier both literally and mathematically if you slept more. Please do!
 
I agree with both statements. Good night, and sorry for coming up with something wrong.
 
Don't apologize. You're fine.
 
anyone of you guys familiar with electronics?
 
1:22 AM
circuits, yes. transistors, no. @trilolil
 
Have you tried turning it off and back on again?
 
That helped quite a bit this weekend.
 
@Semiclassical transfertfunctions for filter design?
 
don't know that. (i did physics, not EE). but is that laplace transform stuff?
 
yes but a very applied form
 
1:25 AM
ah. probably beyond me, then.
 
I mean you have to have a quite good knowledge of electronics :/
kk thx though
 
but i think there is a different stack exchange site that's geared toward that
including a chat
 
yes but there s nobody there
 
ahh
what kind've question are you interested in, anyways? i ask out of intellectual curiousity rather than any expectation i can be useful
 
there's only nobodies here, too
 
1:27 AM
yeah, ted's not here
 
 
3 hours later…
4:29 AM
Hi all, I am trying to figure out the canonical or "natural" homomorphism $G \rightarrow G/H$
 
Anything in particular?
 
Yeah... sorry lemme type an example up!
 
sure :)
 
@BenjaminR To begin with, what are the elements of $G/H$? Knowing that will help figure out the homomorphism.
 
e.g. Let $H = \{R_0 , R_{180}\} \triangleleft D_4$
@Fargle yep in the above example I have done that due diligence
 
4:32 AM
You've given the elements of H, but not G/H.
 
Yep, just lemme get there!
 
Give the man a moment to type
 
(not so fast on the TeX)
:-)
 
I understand.
My apologies.
 
actually whoops we can't use H as the group identifier for $D_4$ !
call it $K = \{R_0, R_{180}\}$ instead, sorry
So, $G/K = \{K, R_{90}K, HK, DK\}$
(and even though it's kinda obvious I did manually check that $K$ is normal to $D_4 = G$)
I should probably just say $D_4 / K$ really
anyway, I get that the elements that are in the cosets "collapse"/compress to the identifier of the coset e.g. $HK = \{H, V\} = VK$ (where the left/right cosets are identical for all elements of $K$)
Or, that $H \sim V$ right?
(sorry I am learning this so I am not able to concretely / efficiently articulate it)
 
4:44 AM
It's true that $H\sim V$, yes.
for the reason you described; I mean, because $HK=VK$.
 
yep, I was just trying to say that the coset elements are also equivalence classes
 
No, this is not true.
The cosets, themselves, are equivalence classes.
The coset elements are elements of equivalence classes
(that second one sounded less obvious in my head :/)
 
sorry, I meant the cosets AS elements of K are equivalence classes, where the elements of each coset are as you say
 
cosets are not elements of K?
I think I do not understand.
 
or rather the elements of $K$ are equivalence classes and cosets
 
4:47 AM
I think we are getting closer, but this is not true either.
The elements of K are group elements (of D_4)
which are not equivalence classes, or cosets.
 
sorry, sorry! I meant the elements of $D_4/K$
d'oh
 
Ah, okay :)
Yeah, you got it
 
so... is that the homomorphism from $D_4 \rightarrow K$? The elements of $D_4$ which map to the 4 equivalence classes?
(I know what a homomorphism is, just if it is, I dunno how to define that as an operation)
 
Maybe, I'm not sure what you're thinking about.
 
I suppose that makes sense as each element of $D_4 / K$ is effectively the identity of that coset...
 
4:52 AM
A morphism is a function in particular, so every group element must go somewhere
that somewhere must be a coset, i.e. an equivalence class
So, for instance, can you tell me where $R_{270}$ goes?
 
Sorry Eric, I am not explaining myself very well. $R_{270} \mapsto R_{90}K \in D_4 / K$
 
It's true that $R_{270}$ goes to $R_{90}K$, but there is a better answer.
 
One of the proofs for normality of $K$ is that there is the canonical homomorphism from $G \rightarrow G/K$, right?
 
Ehhh
let's steer away from that for a sec?
 
I guess what I am trying to learn is how to 'see' the canonical homomorphisms between a group and its factor groups
ok we can come back to it
 
4:56 AM
$R_{90}K$ has another name, is my point.
 
well it's equivalent to $R_{270}K$, but I don't think that's what you are asking?
 
That is what I'm asking
 
oh ok
 
You see why I said that $R_{270}\mapsto R_{270}K$ is a "better answer"?
 
yep (I was just gonna type that) ;-)
 
5:00 AM
jeje
So yeah, the canonical morphism is really quite natural.
 
yeah, gotcha.
 
But :P
the question is the group law
on the factor "group"
 
yep.
 
You see that a map like $x\mapsto xK$ doesn't really have anything to do with groups, if by $xK$ you just mean the equivalence class that $x$ is in, under $\sim$.
So we can always define this map (usually called a 'canonical projection')
 
yeah... that's the more "general" part.
 
5:03 AM
Right
So the thing about normality is
If you want this projection to be a morphism
then the codomain had better be a group
 
yep
 
which seems like a fairly stringent condition on the equivalence relation (hence, the subgroup), and indeed it is
And the condition ends up precisely being normality, long story short.
 
riiiigggghhhhht
 
Which gets back to that question you asked earlier :)
 
100%
thinking about things from the relation/equivalence relation standpoint is v. powerful...
 
5:07 AM
ye :D
 
Thanks!
 
npnp
 
5:47 AM
Maybe some users who answer many questions on s and s could say what they thing about usefulness of a new tag synonym for which was suggested in this post.
 
6:02 AM
@MartinSleziak I dunno about that but your suggestion for #relation-composition is very sensible imo.
It's the sort of category of question I would ask
 
6:44 AM
@BenjaminR For the benefit of other users I will add link to that post. While this tag does not exists, I usually put in such questions. (Although I am aware that it is not entirely correct.)
Here are the questions tagged function-composition+relations.
 
7:05 AM
Does adjoint of a matrix have other applications in maths except being used for finding the determinant of a square matrix
 
@Albas I assume you mean what is nowadays usually called the adjugate matrix? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjugate_matrix
The adjoint (in the modern sense) certainly has many applications, but not for computing determinants
 
Yeah adjoint is different.
 
@BalarkaSen Well, adjugate used to be called adjoint, so there is plenty of room for confusion
 
Weird. Adjoint always makes me think of $(Ax, y) = (x, A^*x)$, and that's generally the context in which I see the word "adjoint" being used (adjoint maps, adjoint functors).
 
@BalarkaSen Yeah, that is also the way to term is usually used now
I should get some writing done. I had a nice idea over the weekend that allows me to extend some formulas for dimensions of Hom-spaces to hold for all modules, rather than just those with good filtrations.
 
7:15 AM
Sounds interesting.
re:adjoint/adjugate - I don't know of what it does except keeping track of the cofactor, which can be useful perhaps.
 
(the idea is even practically trivial and just a matter of using that linear maps are uniquely determined by their values on a basis)
 
Deep bruh:
http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/1777756/composition-series-as-an-analogue-of-compactness
 
By adjoint I mean the matrix that is formed by taking the transpose of the cofactor matrix. By the cofactor matrix I mean the matrix formed by writing the cofactors of each element.@TobiasKildetoft
 
@Albas Right, as explained on the wiki page I linked, that is called the adjugate now
 
Okay thanks. I will read that
@TobiasKildetoft is there any way to geometrically represent the adjoint matrix?
 
7:29 AM
@Albas No idea
 
Hmm.. Okay thanks
 
@Albas There is a question on the main: What is the intuitive meaning of the adjugate matrix?
Only one answer. I guess there is not some very easy interpretation.
 
@Albas Well, what does geometrically a cofactor mean?
Even more simply, what does - geometrically - determinant mean?
 
7:47 AM
Balarka determinant geometrically means volume
 
Volume of what?
 
If a 3by 3 matrix then volume of the parallepid( I do not know the spelling) formed by the three vectors
 
There's nothing special about 3. If you have a square matrix in general then the det represents volume of the parallelpiped spanned by the column vectors.
Can you describe what cofactor mean using this interpretation?
 
Hmm so the cofactor of an element in a square matrix is basically the element times the determinant of the matrix formed by deleting the row and the column containing the element . So it would just mean a scalar multiple of the volume of the structure spanned by the vectors in the matrix formed after deleting the rows and coloumns
Ahh.. Yes dot products and vector products.
Okay got it. Thanks everyone
 
8:04 AM
Hello!!
Could someone of you take a look at my question ( math.stackexchange.com/questions/1761805/… ) and give me a hint how to show the uniqueness?
 
@MaryStar This is a general property of polynomial rings. Any map defined on the variables and which is the identity on the base ring uniquely determines a homomorphism.
 
But how could we prove that? @TobiasKildetoft
 
@MaryStar That is straightforward from the definition of a polynomial ring
@AlexClark I found an easy way to make the code run in parallel if you are able to access a bunch of computers remotely.
 
Ah ok... So, I have just to show that $T$ is a ring homomorphism and that it is bijective, right? @TobiasKildetoft
 
@MaryStar Just bijective
 
8:18 AM
Why do I not need to show that $T$ is a ring homomorphism? @TobiasKildetoft
 
@MaryStar Because as I just said, any map on the variables determines a unique homomorphism
 
8:36 AM
We haven't seen the universal property of polynomial ring in class... So, can we justify the uniqueness only with that property? @TobiasKildetoft
 
@MaryStar It is straightforward to prove, just by the form polynomials have.
 
The form of polynomials is $\sum_{i=0}^nc_ix^i$. How could we use that form to prove the uniqueness? I got stuck right now... @TobiasKildetoft
 
@MaryStar And you know what the map does to $x$ and to all the $c_i$ and you are assuming that it is a homomorphism.
 
We have that $x\rightarrow ax+b=:f(x)$.
So, $\sum_{i=0}^nc_ix^i \rightarrow \sum_{i=0}^nc_if(x)^i$, right? @TobiasKildetoft
 
8:46 AM
And that implies that the homomorphism is unique? @TobiasKildetoft
 
@MaryStar Yes, because you just found the value on an arbitrary element using the given information
 
Ah ok... I got it!! Thank you!! :-)
After that I want to show that if $I$ is an integral domain then each automorphism of $I[x]$ that is trivial in $I$ is of the above form.

We have that since the mapping $x\rightarrow ax+b$ is the unique automorphism that is identity in the commutative ring $R$ and since the integral domain is a commutative ring the automorphism must be of the form $x\rightarrow ax+b$ because of uniqueness.

Is this correct? @TobiasKildetoft
 
@MaryStar No, that is not the uniqueness you have shown
You have shown that the form describes a unique homomorphism and that it is an automorphism. You have not shown that no other automorphisms are possible
 
9:12 AM
Ah ok... Could you give me some hints how we could show that each automorphism of $I[x]$ that is trivial in $I$ is of the above form? @TobiasKildetoft
 
@MaryStar Consider injectivity and surjectivity separately and what these say about what the degree of $f(x)$ must be.
 
Hi, I'm having trouble with definitions, namely, clopen sets. Clopens sets are sets which are both open and closed.

Suppose $A$ is a clopen set, then every point in $A$ is an interior point (hence open) and $A^c$ contains all it's boundary points (hence closed)?
 
Hi @JesterTran. Sure, $A^c=(open)^c=(closed)$ so it contains all its boundary points.
Hello everybody
 
@Sebgr Is that a good way to prove something is clopen?
 
If you are working with topological spaces, then by definition, a closed set is the complement of an open set
So, if A is a "clopen" set, then it has two properties: It is open, and it is the complement of an open set
 
9:24 AM
The injectivity and surjectivity of which mapping? @TobiasKildetoft
 
@Sebgr thanks
 
@MaryStar Of the hypothetical automorphism
 
Well, I've come here embarrased over a definition question. Suppose you have an algebraic equation $f(x)=y$. What is the definition of a "root"?
I know a "root" for a typical case, $f(x)=0$
 
@Sebgr Roots are something polynomials have. Equations have solutions
They are connected by roots being solutions to $f(x) = 0$ where $f$ is the polynomial
 
@TobiasKildetoft So, is my text abusing language when it says "The equation $f(x)=y$ has multiple roots for precisely (d-1) values of y"?
(We're assuming $f(x)$ is a polynomial)
 
9:31 AM
But haven't we already shown that the mapping is bijective? @TobiasKildetoft
 
@Sebgr In my opinion, yes (but there are unfortunately some authors who do not agree with me)
 
Or do we have to suppose the mapping $\phi : I[x]\rightarrow I[x]$ ? @TobiasKildetoft
 
@MaryStar You really need to think more about what precisely you are trying to show now
 
We want to show that the automorphism of $I[x]$ is of the form $x\rightarrow f(x)=ax+b$, right?
So, we have to show that $T:I[x]\rightarrow I[x]$ with $p(x)\mapsto (p\circ f)(x)$ is an automorphism, or not?
But we have to show that **each** automorphism is of that form... @TobiasKildetoft
 
@MaryStar No, if you want to show that "all $X$ are of the form $Y$" then clearly you should not be showing anything to be an $X$ along the way.
 
9:40 AM
But what am I supposed to show then? I got stuck right now... @TobiasKildetoft
 
@MaryStar I have no idea where you are stuck. You need to show that something which id an $X$ has the form $Y$. So how should you start?
 
@TobiasKildetoft Am I right in working with the definition $Sol/{f(x)=y/}=\{(x,y)\in\mathbb{C}^2 | f(x)=y\}$?
 
@Sebgr depends on the context
 
Sorry, $Sol(\{ f(x)=y\})$
 
So, we have to take an arbitrary $X$ and show that it has the form $Y$, or not? @TobiasKildetoft
 
9:42 AM
@MaryStar Yes, so in this case, what do you start with?
 
We take an arbitrary automorphism, right? @TobiasKildetoft
 
So, suppose that $\phi$ is an automorphism of $I[x]$. I haven't understood how we can find which form it has... @TobiasKildetoft
 
@MaryStar Consider what value it could have on the variable $x$.
 
@TobiasKildetoft Well, the context is, I have a polynomial of degree $d$, $f:\mathbb{C}\rightarrow \mathbb{C}$ and I'm calculating the branching index with the help of the Hurwitz formula. I get that it's $(d-1)$, so my text goes on to say that a given equation $f(x)=y$ will have multiple "roots" for $(d-1)$ values of $y$.
 
9:51 AM
@Sebgr in that case, it means roots of the polynomial $f(x) - y$ (with $y$ a constant)
 
@TobiasKildetoft It will be a polynomial of $x$, or not? So we have to find the degree of that polynomial. But how?
 
@MaryStar please spend a bit more time thinking about this. You already know what the answer is supposed to be, so you just need to figure out why it cannot be something else.
 
@TobiasKildetoft Thanks!
 
Is it maybe because when $x$ is send to a polynomial of higher order than $1$, then no polynomial can be sent to $x$ ? @TobiasKildetoft
 
@MaryStar try to write that up and see
 
10:04 AM
Suppose that the automorphism is of the form $x\rightarrow p(x)$, where $p(x)$ is a polynomial of degree $i>1$.
Let $\phi:q(x)\mapsto q(p(x))$ be the mapping.
Then $\phi$ must be onto:
For each $y$ we must find a $z$ such that $\phi (z(x))=y(x)\Rightarrow z(p(x))=y(x)$.
Set $y(x)=x$.
Then $z(p(x))=x$. Since the degree of $p$ is $>1$, that cannot be true.
Is this correct? @TobiasKildetoft
 
@MaryStar yes
 
10:18 AM
Great!! Thanks a lot!! :-) @TobiasKildetoft
 
 
2 hours later…
12:33 PM
How do I find the number of real solutions to the equation $xe^x=k$ where $k \in \mathbb{R}$?
 
12:47 PM
If $k\ge0$, there is one solution. If $-1/e<k<0$, there are two solutions. If $k=-1/e$, there is one solution, $x=-1$. If $k<-1/e$, there are no solutions.
Look at a graph.
 
Thanks
What are some numerical methods not involving differentiation that approximates the solution of an equation that cannot be solved analytically? e.g. $x^2 \sin (x) + e^x = 0$
 
1:04 PM
Is this correct:
http://i.imgur.com/HXlSsYz.png
 
Hey @robjohn
I am looking at your older answer: http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/68642/fourier-transform-is-uniformly-continuous

I have a function $f$ of one variable.

I use the following definition: $\widehat{f}(\xi)=\int_{-\infty}^{+\infty} f(x) e^{-ix \xi} dx$.

So we have $|\widehat{f}(\xi+h)-\widehat{f}(\xi)|=\left| \int f(x) e^{-ix \xi} (e^{-ix h}-1)\right|$, right so far?

Could you explain to me how we get the inequality from the dominated convergence theorem that you wrote?
 
1:31 PM
Let $G = \mathbb{Z}_8 \oplus \mathbb{Z}_4$, and $H \lhd G = \langle(2,2)\rangle = \{\,(0,0)\ ,\ (2,2)\ ,\ (4,0)\ ,\ (6,2)\,\}$
So, $\mid G \mid$ $= 32$ and $\mid H \mid$ $= 4$, and $\therefore$ the order of the quotient group $G$ / $H \ =\ 8$

Then the orders of the elements of the quotient group $G$ / $H$:

$H$ (order 1 obviously!)
$(1,0)H$ (order 4)
$(2,0)H$ (order 2)
$(3,0)H$ (order 4)
$(0,1)H$ (order 4)
$(0,3)H$ (order 4)
$(1,1)H$ (order 2)
$(1,3)H$ (order 4)
Is that correct?
 
2:08 PM
Sorry, I just need to check before I post a question
 
2:25 PM
@Albas You just restated the definition. That's not a geometric interpretation.
 
Hello @BalarkaSen
 
Hi.
 
Suppose I have an affine curve defined by $w^2=z^3$ and I want to "extend it" with its points "at infinity". How do I find them?
I'm not sure I understand the algebraic idea of "infinity". Geometrically, I see that I'm suppose to embed this curve in $mathbb{C}P^2$
sorry, $\mathbb{C}P^2$
 
2:40 PM
Take projective completion.
 
So, for example, I could find the homogeneous equation $w^2x_z^3=0$ in $\mathbb{C}P^2$
 
A good response would take more care in explaning the notion of projective space, but here's a brief one. Your equation, in projective space, is $xw^2 = z^3$; the points you have so far are those with $x=1$. The points at infinity are those with $x=0$.
So what you gather is that the points at infinity are those (rather, the one) of the form $[0:w:0]$.
 
ugh, $w^2x-z^3$, yeah (is there a way to preview my answer)?
 
No, but you can edit it; click the little arrow to the left of your message after it's been posted.
 
(Ok, I see)
@MikeMiller Yes, I understand that notion. What confuses me is when I'm asked then to find the branching points there
 
2:44 PM
OK, if that was the problem you should have said so, instead of saying you're having trouble finding the points at infinity. :)
Maybe @BalarkaSen can help. I have to go.
 
@Sebgr Can you explain what you mean by branching points?
 
@MikeMiller Thanks!
Hi @BalarkaSen
I take a branching point to be a point of a Riemann Surface such that in a local normal form (ie, with the "right" coordinates) is the image of a map $z\mapsto z^n$
(maybe I'm mixing Riemann Surfaces here unnecessarily)
 
Can somebody please direct me to a question that tells me why f(f^-1(A)) is a subset of A?
 
@Sebgr I see. Unfortunately I am not familiar with how to do this. Also note that $x^2 - y^3$ is not smooth at the origin, so you cannot have local coordinates there - so I suppose you're looking at points away from origin.
 
@robjohn are you aware of a nice way of writing $$\sum_{k=1}^n \frac{1}{\binom{2k}{k}}$$?
 
2:52 PM
Also I suppose you mean "graph of the map $z \mapsto z^n$", not image.
 
@robjohn it's known that $$\sum_{k=1}^n \frac{1}{\binom{n}{k}}=\frac{n+1}{2^{n+1}}\sum_{k=1}^{n+1}\frac{2^k}{k} $$
 
Hi @iwriteonbananas
 
Hey @BalarkaSen
 
@user1618033 Hmm... I've done some things with inverse binomial coefficients. Let me look.
@user1618033 Yeah, I think I have that in one of my answers.
 
@robjohn Yeah, I know that. I was curious about the previous one though. Not sure I saw before a nice way putting that one.
 
2:57 PM
@user1618033 Yeah... that is in this answer.
 
@BalarkaSen Yes, you are right. Thanks anyway
 
Ehh, why is $H^2(K(\Bbb Z/n,1))\cong \Bbb Z/n$ ? Apparently it follows from the UCT, but I don't see it..
 
@user1618033 I can get an asymptotic, but I think the one I did was $\sum\limits_{k=0}^n\frac1{\binom{n}{k}}$
 
@robjohn Yeap, I upvoted already that one.
@robjohn That other variant would have been interesting too
 
@iwriteonbananas because you have an explicit model for $K(\Bbb Z/n,1)$ which you have already computed the homology of and then applied the UCT to
 
3:01 PM
Oh, must be an infinite Lens space or something
 
yes
 
I really stayed awake waiting for some validation that I had understood the quotient group of $\langle(2,2)\rangle$ in $Z_8 \oplus Z_4$ but I guess people thought maybe I was trolling, or it was too inane to answer?
 
@robjohn Mathematica gives some results involving the hypergeometric functions.
 
Is $H^*(\Bbb HP^\infty; \Bbb Z)\cong \Bbb Z[a]$ with $|a|=4$, @MikeMiller?
 
Sounds right.
 
3:15 PM
Hm
 
@user1618033 It is also proven in this answer, with a reference to the previous answer.
 
ok, I'll roll with it
 
@iwriteonbananas Yes, just write down the CW complex.
I guess you're asking about the ring structure, but you could calculate that whatever your favorite way is.
Serre or whatever works fine.
where did that come from?
 
Wait no
nevermind
 
@user1618033 I'm thinking that this answer might be useful in evaluating that sum.
 
3:19 PM
@robjohn hmmm, let me see
 
@user1618033 I think a derivative of a geometric sum can be wedged in there.
 
I think I've told you before the only $K(G,n)$s I actually "know how to write down" (eg, that are some explicit space that doesn't involve an infinite, non-constructive process) have $n=1$ or are $K(\Bbb Z,2)$ or $K(\Bbb Z/2,3)$.
 
Yeah, I remember :P
 
I guess I can loop anything and have it still be within my conditions, so also $K(\Bbb Z/2, 2)$.
 
What's a $K(\Bbb Z/2, 3)$ btw?
 
3:21 PM
you want to hear?
it's definitely the grossest on the list
 
Tell me unless it's so gross that u don't want to tell me
 
let $\text{TOP}(n)$ be the topological group of germs of homeomorphisms $(\Bbb R^n,0) \to (\Bbb R^n,0)$. let $\text{PL}(n)$ be defined similarly, but for PL homeomorphisms. there is an obvious inclusion map here, and an obvious way of sending each of these to $(n+1)$ [that commutes with inclusion], so I can define the limit space $\text{TOP}/\text{PL} = \lim \text{TOP}(n)/\text{PL}(n)$
 
@robjohn Not sure, maybe. On the other hand, I think that for getting nice results we need to consider more sums at once.
 
Ok T__T
 
@user1618033 This answer gives the infinite sum, which would be gotten using that formula
 
3:26 PM
@iwriteonbananas :P
 
it's a theorem of Kirby and Siebenmann that $\text{TOP}/\text{PL}$ is a $K(\Bbb Z/2,3)$. this, plus their surgery theory, implies that for every topological manifold $M$, there is a well-defined class, which i guess maybe i'll call $\alpha(M) \in H^4(M;\Bbb Z/2)$, that vanishes if and only if $M$ has a PL structure; and a class in $H^3(M; \Bbb Z/2)$ that determines whether or not this PL structure is unique
that last statement deserves clarification but i won't do that
 
That's a very cool result
 
Pretty cool theorem.
 
@robjohn I need to study more the mysterious identities around such little sums. It seems nothing nice is known for that one.
 
@user1618033 you mean for the finite sum?
 
3:29 PM
@robjohn Yes.
 
@user1618033 As I said, we know the infinite sum and I am sure that an asymptotic expansion for the finite sum can be gotten.
 
so indeed any manifold for which those groups vanish has a unique PL structure. also I should have demanded dimension at least 5.
 
@robjohn My guess is that sometimes we need to study groups of similar (or not necessarily similar) sums and consider them together to get some cool forms.
 
@user1618033 I am not sure that a nice closed form for the partial sum exists necessarily.
 
@robjohn That's why I said considering other sums too. At least to obtain relations with other sums (like in the previous example).
 
3:32 PM
What did you compute $H^*(BSO(3);\Bbb Z)$ to be, @MikeMiller?
I think you mentioned that we have a fibration $B\Bbb Z/2\to BSO(3)\to BSU(2)$, is that right?
 
sounds right, not sure how helpful it is. I always forget the precise answer for $\Bbb Z$ coeffs
 
Aren't all differentials zero for dimension reasons?
 
I think it's $\Bbb Z[e,p]/(2e)$, where $|e|=3$, $|p|=4$
 
Oh yeah I messed something up
$E_2^{p,q}=H^p(\Bbb HP^\infty; H^q(\Bbb RP^\infty))$
 
so all the differentials on the E^2 page vanish, but on the E^4 page I think things get interesting
 
3:40 PM
Oh, Mike has succumbed to abstract nonsense.
Welcome.
 
Right, I'm gonna try to figure out what happens just for fun (probably won't be able to)
Almost all computations I've done so far were just formal
 
spectral sequences are abstract nonsense?
@iwriteonbananas I more or less have no idea what the differentials on that page look like. You would either want a good understanding of McCleary (his discussion of transgressions comes to mind, whatever those are) or a good understanding of the CW structure of the fibration; and if you had that...
 
When solving for eigenvalues within a Matrix, what order do they form on the diagonal? Are the ones closest to (0,0) always the greatest, and the smallest closest to (n,n)?
Is there an order at all..
 
Ok, I've been using McCleary a lot lately but haven't gotten to transgressions yet
 
If you can calculate this, you'll have to teach me how
 
3:54 PM
@MikeMiller The diff's on the E^4 page go 4 to the right and 3 down, so aren't they all zero?
Only nonzero groups occur when the "y-coordinate" is even, right?
I guess I'm messing something up
 
hm, you're right. OK, so the complication isn't in the spectral sequence, it's in the fact that you then have to reassemble the groups from the filtration, I think
Like when you calculate the $E^\infty$ page it's not a literal list of groups or whatnot
 
Yeah, there could be some extension problems here
That's kinda nasty
With $\Bbb Q$ coefficients, we should get $\Bbb Q[a]$ with $|a|=4$
 
that's correct; the fiber is rationally contractible
 
you could try to compute it with $\Bbb Z_2$ coefficients if you like. the answer's not so bad. (Try to get the full cohomology ring!)
 
4:05 PM
Is it $\Bbb Z_2[a,b]/(2a)$ with $|a|=2$ and $|b|=4$?
 
nope
also, $/(2a)$? :p
 
Oh yeah, i was dumb
damn it, can't delete that anymore
 
4:18 PM
no
Ok, I'm confusing myself, I'll try again in a bit. Need to run a couple of errands
 
5:05 PM
with regards to the comment to this answer, I'm oh-so-tempted to just say "No, you can't." (at least to the extent that i really doubt there to be any more elementary answer than the one already provided)
 
Maybe he is not a math student
 
perhaps not
 
 
1 hour later…
6:17 PM
Hey guys, I have a quick question.
If two entire functions agree on the real line, do they necessarily agree everywhere?
 
If an entire function is zero on the real line, is it zero everywhere?
 
hi @MikeMiller are you familiar with the house with two rooms ?
 
I think so, since the power series expansion about any point on the real line should be zero (?)
which tells you that you're zero on an open set, so you must be zero everywhere. Or am I missing something?
 
Tomorrow results of my finals are getting out. I am utterly terrified.
 
@BalarkaSen good luck
btw are you familiar with house with two rooms
 
6:23 PM
I am.
 
there is something I am confused about how can something with some holes be contractible ?
 
It's essentially obtained from a 3-ball by pushing things inside. It doesn't have literal holes.
 
oh I see
and connecting them I guess
 
@Adeek This picture of the house with two rooms might help: i1.wp.com/farm3.static.flickr.com/2783/…
You can sort of imagine it like a ball of clay, where you poke two holes on opposite sides
and then widen the bottoms of the holes to form the "rooms".
 
yeah I understand now
 
6:55 PM
Is here anyone interested in number theory?
 
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