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Hohmannfan
Hohmannfan
12:00 AM
@HDE226868 Good luck!
 
HDE 226868
HDE 226868
@Hohmannfan Thanks. I'll need it.
I can triple the amount of questions I miss.
 
Samuel
Samuel
@HDE226868 Don't worry, STEM degrees are easy. It's why everyone does them.
All those kids drop out of business school and humanities to knock out an engineering degree.
 
Shalvenay
Shalvenay
@Samuel lol :D
 
Hohmannfan
Hohmannfan
@HDE226868 I know I am going to have less time for SE soon, as I qualified for the final in Abelkonkurransen (Norwegian math contest), so I have to change my focus a little. I think I can triple the amount of questions I miss too.
 
HDE 226868
HDE 226868
@Samuel . . . would you have said that during your efforts to procure said degree? :P
@Hohmannfan Congrats!
The closest I can get to a national STEM competition is if my Science Olympiad team gets to Nationals, which is looking less and less likely. . .
I can do well in my events at States, but we'd need to beat some really good schools overall to get to Nationals.
@Hohmannfan Think you'll win?
 
Hohmannfan
Hohmannfan
12:17 AM
@HDE226868 I think I have a fair chance for a good spot, perhaps among the top 10. I think the top 6 qualifies as the Norwegian team at the international mathematical olympiad.
 
HDE 226868
HDE 226868
That's . . . extremely impressive.
What's one of the more esoteric areas of mathematics you're familiar with?
 
Hohmannfan
Hohmannfan
Mostly packing problems
 
HDE 226868
HDE 226868
Oh, those are cool.
 
Hohmannfan
Hohmannfan
And orbital mechanics of course ;)
 
HDE 226868
HDE 226868
I've been trying to learn orbital mechanics lately. I don't know it quite as well as I'd like.
 
Samuel
Samuel
12:30 AM
@HDE226868 No way. I'm completely joking. Sure, you can eek your way through a BS, especially in computer science. But if you plan to continue in academia for a bit (which you're probably going to have to for astrophysics), you'll need to work your ass off.
 
Hohmannfan
Hohmannfan
@Samuel So kind of you...
 
Samuel
Samuel
@Hohmannfan My own observations, of course :)
Actually my alma mater now let's anyone with a BS in anything else get a BS in CS from a one year program.
 
Hohmannfan
Hohmannfan
I have only seen the acronym "BS" for 'bullshit' before. What is this other meaning?
"Bachelor of Science" apparently
 
Samuel
Samuel
12:49 AM
@Hohmannfan Correct.
 
HDE 226868
HDE 226868
1:10 AM
@Samuel You'll have to excuse me; my brain's not functioning tonight.
 
Samuel
Samuel
@HDE226868 Excused.
 
HDE 226868
HDE 226868
It's put me on autopilot.
 
Samuel
Samuel
That's a good default.
Better than low power mode.
 
Worldbuilding Meta
Worldbuilding Meta
1
Q: Can opinion based questions be posted on the meta?

XandarTheZenonI was just wondering, can opinion based questions be posted on the meta? Or is it discouraged here like it is in regular world building?

discussion on-topic
 
Worldbuilding Meta
Worldbuilding Meta
1:37 AM
1
Q: Should we answer off-topic questions?

AifyMoments ago, I saw this: The question this was posted on is 100% opinion based + idea generation, thus making it clearly off topic. Should we answer off-topic questions (before they're put on hold/closed) if we know that they're off-topic? I bring this up because while a new user may rush to an...

discussion
 
Worldbuilding Meta
Worldbuilding Meta
1:55 AM
1
Q: Why is "Creating an undetectable 'Manchurian Candidate'" off-topic?

Monty WildMy question Creating an undetectable 'Manchurian Candidate' has been through the wringer, it seems. First it was off-topic, then after a major edit, it was on-topic, and now it is off-topic again. Let's get this over and done with once and for all. Why is this question off topic - and can anyt...

discussion on-topic
 
 
4 hours later…
Worldbuilding Meta
Worldbuilding Meta
5:32 AM
0
Q: What if there were a What If?

nitsua60I think it'd be nice to have a place to steer some of the most-obviously off-topic "What If," as I mentioned earlier. Turns out, there was a proposal in Area 51 for some type of speculative-yet-science-based Stack. Curious as to its fate, I sent this e-mail to the community managers: Hello al...

discussion on-topic
0
Q: Is one really on- and the other off-topic?

nitsua60Please contrast How deep underwater do I have to dive to be safe from a 1MT Hydrogen bomb detonation above? with Is outrunning a nuclear mushroom cloud feasible? Is one really on-topic while the other's off-? It may be that there's an important difference, but I'm not seeing it. If you see it, p...

discussion on-topic
 
 
1 hour later…
bilbo_pingouin
bilbo_pingouin
7:06 AM
@Samuel and @HDE226868, STEM studies aren't always as hard as it sounds. Yes there needs a bit of dedication and aptitude, but had WB existed when I was studying (and had I known about it), I would certainly have had the time to hang around some. And I went 'til the end of that path.
Back then, I used to click on "random page" on wikipedia :-)
 
 
2 hours later…
Mike L.
Mike L.
9:29 AM
@bilbo_pingouin Oh man, even with everything else going on, I still had so much more free time as an undergrad.
 
Hohmannfan
Hohmannfan
"Tachina brevicornis","Madonna with Writing Child and Bishop","Dominican Republic men's national softball team","Crosswize","Post-election pendulum for the Victorian state election, 1996","Gaayam 2". A lot of useful articles turn up with that random button.
 
 
3 hours later…
bilbo_pingouin
bilbo_pingouin
1:02 PM
is there any way to see how we fare on the pundit badge?
 
Tim B
Tim B
which one is pundit?
 
bilbo_pingouin
bilbo_pingouin
comments with 5 upvotes
 
Tim B
Tim B
there might be a sede query, trying googling
 
bilbo_pingouin
bilbo_pingouin
anothe AI question...? I with those would stop. Or change. AI wants to do something is quite bad fit...
 
bilbo_pingouin
bilbo_pingouin
1:22 PM
5 / 10... I'm half way... my comments aren't particularly popular...
6
Q: Worldbuilding Data Queries

ArtOfCodeThis post is here to house SEDE (StackExchange Data Explorer) queries relating to this site. Originally spawned from this thread. Queries are categorised below depending on the data they look at. If you have written a query and would like it added to the list, just edit it in in the correct cate...

discussion data-explorer
should we have a second answer to that question, listing queries to see progress on badges?
 
Hohmannfan
Hohmannfan
absolutely!
 
DaaaahWhoosh
DaaaahWhoosh
so, anyone remember a question on this site about post-scarcity economics?
I found this SMBC comic/story about a possible solution
 
Hohmannfan
Hohmannfan
Yay! SMBC
 
Tim B
Tim B
1:45 PM
@bilbo_pingouin Hmm, I've had pundit for a while :) comment more :P
 
bilbo_pingouin
bilbo_pingouin
@TimB fear my comment streak ;-)
 
Tim B
Tim B
@bilbo_pingouin If you want :) I think the list already exists on main meta though
 
bilbo_pingouin
bilbo_pingouin
@TimB do you have a link?
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
@Samuel I've been tracking the Generalist Badge on meta with this question/answer meta.worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/581/…
I'm also seeing how close I can be to 40 bronze tag badges by the time Generalist is available.
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
2:09 PM
@DaaaahWhoosh Eh, post-scarcity economy is a phantom. You only need to watch Star Trek to see that it can't function, since not everyone can have their own Enterprise, or spend an arbitrary amount of time with Jeri Ryan.
 
DaaaahWhoosh
DaaaahWhoosh
@MikeL. True, I guess it has more problems the more I learn about it. But that's a good thing, because stories set in the future can still have relatable issues.
 
Tim B
Tim B
@MikeL. It's not as much of a phantom as you think. Yes certain things are limited (i.e. beach side property in hawaii) but by moving status away from ownership you open up those things to more shared and equitable use. Certainly any consumer product can be post scarcity
there's a scene in one of the culture novels where a concert is being held with finite seating. For the time up to the concert happening the tickets become usable as a sort of currency. People want them and the only way to get them is to convince someone who has one to give it to you
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
2:26 PM
@TimB Well, to a point. Even if you can conjure any one item out of thin air, you still have things that are mutually exclusive (like the beachfront properties and such) and services are still scarce, because people only have a finite amount of time available.
 
DaaaahWhoosh
DaaaahWhoosh
@MikeL. But the only services humans could sell would be ones that robots aren't offering for free
and ones that other humans couldn't also offer for free
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
@DaaaahWhoosh "for no monetary payment" is not the same thing as "for free"
e.g. "I'll give you a back rub if you go fishing with me" is still effectively a transaction.
 
DaaaahWhoosh
DaaaahWhoosh
you have a point there, but I'll just fall back on the robots, then. they don't need favors
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
@DaaaahWhoosh Well no, but there is a great many things robots can't meaningfully do.
 
DaaaahWhoosh
DaaaahWhoosh
@MikeL. can't do yet. Were you the one arguing against the singularity before?
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
2:36 PM
@DaaaahWhoosh I don't think I was. I was arguing against CGP Grey's take on it, maybe.
 
DaaaahWhoosh
DaaaahWhoosh
oh, right. That's what I meant. :)
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
@DaaaahWhoosh But imagine you're a playwright, and you want to have your play staged in the Globe Theater. You're gonna have to deal with scarcity, because there's only so many plays they can stage per week.
Sure, you could build a perfect replica and populate it with clapping robots, but that's hardly the same thing, is it?
 
DaaaahWhoosh
DaaaahWhoosh
ah, so the last scarcity is an audience...
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
@DaaaahWhoosh Or humans in general. Say you wanted a date with... eh, who's the hot movie babe right now?
Again, you could substitue a robot, but... well, you get the point.
Basically, the primary scarcity has been our own time all along, money is just one specific way of measuring that.
 
James
James
Mornin
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
2:40 PM
morning
 
DaaaahWhoosh
DaaaahWhoosh
@MikeL. I think I agree, but I'm very introverted so it's hard to sympathize
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
@James finally had a chance last night to rivet my tongs! I like them!
 
James
James
@bowlturner Woo!
That part does not look easy
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
@bowlturner What kind?
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
@James it was surprisingly easy, it was a softer steel that I didn't even have to heat up, just beat with a ball peen.
@MikeL. I'll get a picture in just a minute
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
2:43 PM
@DaaaahWhoosh Not really. I could put a live video up on youtube and get millions of viewers. Audience isn't scarce either
 
DaaaahWhoosh
DaaaahWhoosh
@AndyD273 You could get millions of viewers, but only if you work hard and produce better stuff than your competitors
a person can only consume so much media, some media producers aren't going to get what they want
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
@DaaaahWhoosh Right, I'd be competing for their time. That might be the last scarce thing, since we can't make more of it, and can't digitize it
There might only be 300 seats in the theater, which makes local viewing scarce, but remote viewing makes up for it.
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
 
Tim B
Tim B
mathjax is sorta funky
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
@bowlturner Very nice! is that a pen for scale?:)
Can you show the profile of the grabby part?
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
2:48 PM
@MikeL. yep
@MikeL. which view?
 
Tim B
Tim B
My first mathjaxing :)
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
@AndyD273 You might get millions of viewers, but not for free. You either have to pay with time and effort, or some other currency, like your dignity.
 
Tim B
Tim B
4
A: Vanishing oxygen

Tim BYour problem is mass. There's a LOT of oxygen in the atmosphere. Hydrogen needed For each $O^2$ you need 4 hydrogen atoms. Our atmosphere has a mass of approximately: $5.15×10^{18} kg$ By mass 23% of that is oxygen (by volume it's 21% but we're interested in mass). That gives oxygen: $1.18...

anyone want to check my math for me? :D
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
@bowlturner From the front.
 
James
James
@bowlturner nice work dude
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
2:50 PM
@MikeL. I'll try.
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
The grip is irregular for better purchase, I take it?
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
Supply and demand. It used to be that good entertainment was scarce, and so demand was high, and even crap was valuable. Now we have entertainment out the wazoo, more than we can watch in a week, so quality is important. But it's getting so that even high quality entertainment is getting over saturated.
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
@James thanks! it was medium carbon steel. A real bugger
 
James
James
Yeah I have been beating on railroad spikes which are super high carbon...you have to wail on those things to move metal.
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
@MikeL. it has a groove the long way to keep the piece aligned straight with the tongs
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
2:52 PM
@bowlturner v-shape?
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
@MikeL. yep
@James I believe it!
that you almost need a high yellow
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
@bowlturner That is a nicely functional pair of tongs, then. Where did you get the material from?
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
@MikeL. Right. Time may be the last scarcity. Of course there's always a cost, something that you have to not do in order to do something else. That's not what is meant when they say post scarcity anyway.
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
@MikeL. My blacksmith gets stuff from odd places. We have a table that is full of scrap. So don't know where it came from. But it was about 1/2-5/8 round
still need to grind the ends to be nice and even.
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
@AndyD273 Like I said, "post-scarcity" is a fuzzy, fuzzy phantom. That you can get things for free doesn't mean that there will be no currency, for example, even though that's what most people are assuming.
@bowlturner You're renting a smithy, then? What do have to grind with?
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
2:58 PM
@MikeL. no I joined a smithing community. I have a bench grinder at home in my wood shop. Need to sharpen my turning tools frequently.
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
@bowlturner Nice. I still don't have anywhere to set up, but at least I finally got a dremel two weeks ago when I got fed up with using sandpaper to grind Fimo:D
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
Well it's a start!
 
Tim B
Tim B
3:12 PM
I think basic income is going to be the first step towards post scarcity
then as basic income increases more and more things become effectively free
(as in cheap enough for everyone to afford)
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
@TimB I tend to agree with that
 
Tim B
Tim B
optimistic me says we'll start seeing basic income and a phasing out of traditional "benefits/social security/whatever" in 20 years or so in at least some countries. Maybe sooner in some
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
@TimB What does "basic income" mean though?
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
depends if it can get past the You have to WORK for benefits rhetoric
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
Something like welfare?
 
Tim B
Tim B
3:18 PM
not really
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
Even though most of the rich don't work
 
Tim B
Tim B
basically every citizen (however you define that) gets X income from the state
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
@bowlturner Once you get enough money, it starts to do all the work for you
 
Tim B
Tim B
no means testing, no tests, no nothing
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
It's helps form a base standard of living
 
Tim B
Tim B
3:19 PM
so lets say you decide that £15k is enough to live on in reasonable comfort in the UK
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
@AndyD273 right. and it works for your kids and their kids etc.
 
Tim B
Tim B
every single adult in the UK gets 15k no strings attached
you'd remove the tax free bands but start at a reasonable (say 20%) tax rate
and remove minimum wage
now companies can pay what they want...but can't force anyone to work because people have enough to survive on
our industry is competitive with low-wage countries as they can pay less (if they can convince people it's worth it)
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
@TimB I wonder though, if prices would just rise to make up for the fact that everyone has 15k
 
Tim B
Tim B
but now peolpe who before were trapped in low income dead end jobs have choices
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
That's kind of what happens when minim wage is raised
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
3:22 PM
at the low end not really. Partly because there would be no more welfare
 
Tim B
Tim B
if they want to start their own business they can ... if they want to paint or write or whatever they can...etc
@AndyD273 Only to a certain extent...because competition pushes prices down
 
HDE 226868
HDE 226868
Gotta love drop-down messages containing the words "trouble connecting to the server". [Test message to check connection problems.]
 
Tim B
Tim B
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
In reality all hunter-gatherers have this. No one goes hungry or has to sit out in the rain or snow, as long as there is enough for everyone.
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
The Expanse series of books discusses that some. Basically at a certian age everyone has to find a job for at least one year so they can see what working is like. After that they can take basic if they want, which is enough to live on, but not to have anything nice. People can work if they want to earn money, which is good because going on basic sounds like a small kind of hell.
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
3:28 PM
@TimB How do you figure that? You realise that they still have to shell out the tax money to pay for the basic income.
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
@bowlturner As long as someone goes out and takes down the mammouth, and doesn't mind someone else that never goes out to do anything also eating the food.
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
In the grand scheme of things, you'd be producing less but consuming more, which would seriously hurt your competitiveness in international trade.
@TimB Competition can't push the prices below production costs, which are going to go up.
 
Tim B
Tim B
@MikeL. How are costs going to go up? Please note that most basic income systems actually cost very little more to run than existing welfare systems because you lose a lot of the complication and beaurocracy
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
@TimB Because you heavily restrict the amount of available labour, while demans remains more or less constant.
 
Tim B
Tim B
it hasn't restricted the supply of labour
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
3:35 PM
I have no idea why you figure that salaries might go down; if people do not have an existential need to get a job, they can become more picky, which will have the exact opposite effect.
That is the restricting I was talking about.
 
Tim B
Tim B
they can be more picky in terms of conditions (which is not a bad thing) but they have less need for salary and do not lose benefits by working
right now someone on unemployment who finds a job loses their benefits...so the job has to pay enough more than unemployment to be worthwhile
now that's no longer the case. My son is 17 and lives with us. He doesn't need to work, all his bills etc are payed. He still goes and works an evening job because he wants the £X a week it gives him to buy nice things with
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
@TimB That only means that work would have to be significantly more attractive than "free time", which is a hard sell.
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
Well it also depends on if you need a little extra money to buy that 60" flat panel tv
 
Tim B
Tim B
exactly
or a new phone, or to go to the cinema with your friends, or whatever
@MikeL. I refer you to my son. He's already doing exactly that.
As are plenty of other people
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
Anyhow, people chosing to pursue their hobbies instead of working, or only working part time do effectively reduce the labour force, there is no way around that.
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
3:39 PM
are there any countries that are doing the basic thing yet?
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@bowlturner nice-looking tongs, congrats!
 
DaaaahWhoosh
DaaaahWhoosh
@MikeL. Maybe it's a good thing to limit the labor force, since htere will be less jobs in the future
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
@MonicaCellio Thanks! My next pair I hope looks even better!
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@bowlturner or @James, I have a a blacksmithing question that arises from, of all places, Judaism. Is it true that you need tongs to make tongs?
 
Tim B
Tim B
@MikeL. Sure, but we've no shortage of labour force. How many unemployed people are there? How many shitty jobs that could be automated? How many drivers are self driving vehicles going to put out of work in the next 20 years?
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
3:40 PM
@DaaaahWhoosh If you do that before replicators, you're putting your cart in front of the horse.
@TimB What coutry are you from?
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
@MonicaCellio yes and no. It can be done without tongs, but certain parts are much easier and faster to do with them
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
Every employer I know tells me that we do have a shortage of labour force. That there is unemployment doesn't mean that it's not the case; the jobs that need filling aren't being filled. You'd only get more of the same effect.
 
Monica Cellio
Monica Cellio
@bowlturner thanks.
 
Tim B
Tim B
@MikeL. UK
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
@MikeL. the Tech jobs I hear about not being filled are because they don't want to pay a reasonable rate, and so want more work visas to bring in cheaper labor.
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
3:44 PM
@TimB Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not of the "screw poor people, dead end jobs are too good for them", but I'm reasonably certain that the basic income will not have the effects you're describing.
@bowlturner Why, thank you.
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
I'm all for some other country, maybe the UK, to try out the basic concept for a decade or so. I kind of see it ending badly, but that may be my cynical side that's read to many dystopia books.
 
Tim B
Tim B
lol
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
@bowlturner Now, I'm only East European cheap labour, but the employers I was talking about simply can't find the people with necessary qualifications, be they a background in rendering or a driver's licence for a forklift.
 
Tim B
Tim B
Alaska already has something similar btw....well on a smaller scale
max payment has been about 2$k a year in alaska
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
I just think humans are to flawed to be able to handle it.
I'd be ok with being proven wrong.
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
3:48 PM
The difference is, if I got 15K from the government, my Salary from work could be ~15K less to give me the same living standards I have. But the jobs that pay even less, will still have the same issues. But now people don't have to accept as much crap and poor working conditions
 
Tim B
Tim B
@MikeL. There are skills shortages in some areas. If companies only hire people with experience then no-one ever gains the skills though. Basic income or not that doesn't change
Basic income pilots
Basic income pilots are experiments with basic income or the related concept negative income tax, including partial basic income and similar programs. The following list gives an overview of the most well known basic income pilots, including those which haven´t started yet but where political decisions are made. == North America == === Pilots in United States in the 1960s and 1970s === Beginning in the end of 1960s there were five basic income-experiments in the United States, all of which took the form of a negative income tax. Alicia H. Munnell, examining experiments in Indiana, Seatt...
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
@TimB Of course, but it does point to the fact that there is not, in fact, an abundance of labour. It's not even about experience, just basic qualifications.
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
I think the first country to try it, unless somewhere like Switzerland, will have 3-5 years of serious adjustment. But I think it would eventually work out, assuming they know how to handle immigration. Which could kill it before it proves any success.
 
Tim B
Tim B
Madhya Pradesh, India[edit]
The basic income project in Madhya Pradesh, India, started in 2010, involves 20 villages..[8] The villagers in eight of these got basic income and the other villagers were control groups. According to the first communication of the pilot projects, positive results were found.[9] Villages spent more on food and healthcare, children's school performance improved in 68% of families, time spent in school nearly tripled, personal savings tripled, and new business startups doubled.[10] The study also found an increase in economic activity as well as an increase in savi…
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
@bowlturner I get the concept, and believe me I'd be happy with an extra 15k right now if it also came with simplifying the taxes and other stuff.
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
3:52 PM
@bowlturner Would you just accept a 15k reduction in salary, though? Wouldn't you instead like to, say, get shorter hours instead?
 
Tim B
Tim B
Finland[edit]
Sipilä Cabinet, elected in June 2015, is committed to implement a basic income experiment[18] which will be conducted as a nationwide trial for two years from 2017
 
DaaaahWhoosh
DaaaahWhoosh
@MikeL. I'd gladly accept a pay cut if I didn't have to pay income tax
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
@MikeL. Me personally? Yes I would prefer shorter hours. Others would still want more money...
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
@DaaaahWhoosh But that's not the deal here. You'd have to pay more taxes to pay for that basic income. There'd be some level at which the basic income just compensates for the increase in taxes somewhere.
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
It would be a rather large paradigm shift in how we view work and the economy
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
3:55 PM
@bowlturner Undoubtedly. Which is why I'm highly sceptical about those all-flowers-and-sunshine predictions.
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
@TimB Is 2 years long enough to see if it's really working?
 
Tim B
Tim B
@AndyD273 Presumably if it's going ok at the end of 2 years it can be extended
all trials need a duration...it's a start
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
The thing is, we have to see if it works in something like closed system. Effectively subsidizing one place can work, but you're just taking from elsewhere, even if that isn't apparent.
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
@MikeL. Well I will agree that if not done correctly, will actually leave us in a worse state. So can't try it with politicians trying to sabotage it. Even then we might screw it up.
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
It took communism a longer than that to really show the flaws in the system
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
3:57 PM
@AndyD273 Believe me, the gaping flaws in communism were obvious to everyone with eyes to see before it even started.
 
DaaaahWhoosh
DaaaahWhoosh
isn't basic income pretty much the same thing as communism?
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
@AndyD273 yeah, the flaws in Communism is humans. It needs to run perfectly with people not having huge self interest.
@DaaaahWhoosh no, not really. Communism is everyone gets the 'same' no matter what you do.
Basic income is everyone has the right to live and eat
what you do beyond that is your own affair
 
DaaaahWhoosh
DaaaahWhoosh
ah, right. So like socialism then?
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
@DaaaahWhoosh No and yes. More socialism, which is almost communism on a really small scale
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
certain kinds of socialism yes
 
StackExchange
StackExchange
3:59 PM
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Questions

JerendaWhat kind of world changes are necessary to make giant spiders feasible? Far to the north, in a slushy and storm-torn wasteland, a city stands. Massive pillars jut hundreds of feet into the sky from their anchors deep beneath the rising and falling tides below the city. Spanning these pillars ...

 
Mike L.
Mike L.
Anyhow, thank you for the "vote of confidence", I gotta dash now.
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
4:11 PM
@bowlturner I dunno... I think humans are to flawed to allow socialism to do what it promises too. Even if it's just the politicians that are flawed. Just look at the mess they made of the healthcare system in the US. I think just about anything would have been better than the crap we ended up with
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
@AndyD273 I think socialism mixed with capitalism is the way to go. We really already have a version of that in the US despite what people like Trump claim. The roads past our house and Interstates are all socialist constructs.
As far as the health care system, it isn't socialist in the least and that is really why it's screwed up.
 
Hohmannfan
Hohmannfan
Socialism? Looks through the window at the Scandinavian landscape
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
We have the most screwed up health care system and it can be blamed quite a lot on the health insurance industry.
 
HDE 226868
HDE 226868
Math would be so much easier if it didn't involve so much . . . math.
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
I would have been ok with single payer, though the "someone still has to pay for it" people aren't wrong. I would also have been ok with opening it up so that health insurance companies in different states had to compete with each other.
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
4:16 PM
Obama care is giving a way to get Health INSURANCE not health care,
 
Hohmannfan
Hohmannfan
When govt-related services become an industry, you know the system is screwed
 
Tim B
Tim B
This chart and all the others like it say it all really:
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
@bowlturner You are right. The insurance we had for $350 last year jumped to $700 this year. So we switched to a different company with a few less benefits. We kind of need more competition. It (mostly) worked out well with auto insurance.
 
James
James
it just occurred to me we rarely talk politics in here...at least real world politics
 
Tim B
Tim B
In the US you pay 50% more for healthcare and get no better results than in europe
and then insurance companies bribe politicians to trick you all into thinking it's a good idea
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
4:21 PM
@James and it's staying surprisingly civil...
 
Tim B
Tim B
while everyone in europe just sort of watches in bafflement expecting you all to wake up at some point but you never do :)
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
No, the problem is health insurance was originally to help you not go bankrupt when you have a major health related issue. the way it is used now It would be like make a claim to your car insurance every time you needed to put new tires on or make an oil change
 
James
James
@bowlturner Yeah I agree with this.
Though i sometimes find myself sucked into that way of thinking
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
@bowlturner If changing you oil cost a few hundred dollars...
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
because of this, health insurance has insinuated itself through the entire process taking their cut at both ends.
@AndyD273 well it would if everyone made a claim
and your car insurance would quadruple too
 
Tim B
Tim B
4:23 PM
it's a flawed analogy...cars are optional...health isn't really
 
James
James
@TimB In a lot of ways things are set up where cars are almost required anymore...
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
@bowlturner The cost of the oil change would not go up if everyone made a claim.
 
James
James
we build giant neighborhoods with no businesses anywhere close
...I hate housing developments
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
@TimB true, which is also part of the problem, people HAVE to have health care makes it worse
 
Hohmannfan
Hohmannfan
@James housing? Again looks through the window at the Scandinavian landscape
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
4:25 PM
@AndyD273 yes it would. It's called bureaucracy. It costs a lot of money for all the paperwork to go through.
 
Hohmannfan
Hohmannfan
Any system gets expensive if people try to abuse it.
 
HDE 226868
HDE 226868
@James Cities are doing a better job of encouraging other forms of going around, even besides the subway, at least in my area, and commuting's become a bit easier. But yeah, locally and outside the cities, cars are a must-have.
 
Hohmannfan
Hohmannfan
@HDE226868 Except for small islands :)
 
James
James
@Hohmannfan If I could reach through my monitor and smack you out of jealousy I probably would right now.
 
Tim B
Tim B
@James Yeah, America is a nightmare for that. I still remember staying in a hotel in Denvor once and trying to walk to a shopping center thing I could see from my hotel window. After walking for a mile and crossing several dangerous roads with no crossing areas I finally made the 300m walk and decided I wasn't trying that again
 
James
James
4:29 PM
@TimB Having been to Europe and seeing the difference it drives me a little crazy to be honest. Though...driving in athens was really fun...people are nuts on the road.
 
HDE 226868
HDE 226868
Europe has done a lot of things right that the US has done wrong. It kind of makes me wonder why, sometimes.
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
big business.
 
HDE 226868
HDE 226868
@Hohmannfan Lucky.
@bowlturner Even with companies extending internationally all the time?
 
Hohmannfan
Hohmannfan
That makes me wonder if the European Union really is a good idea
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
@HDE226868 yes. they help shape our government to their desires. They write half or more of the bills that make it to the congressional floor, sometimes subtly sometimes overtly benefiting themselves with them.
 
Tim B
Tim B
4:35 PM
@HDE226868 Partly we got lucky. Our cities were designed before cars existed, so were never built around them to the same extent.
 
HDE 226868
HDE 226868
@bowlturner Well, yes, but I would attribute that to a poor political system.
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
Same thing. One begets the other.
either way we got what we got.
 
James
James
Citizens united was a complete travesty. Companies /= people
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
Doesn't hurt that we've been trained to be a soundbite society. We believe anything some one says who we 'trust'.
@James yep
 
Tim B
Tim B
essentially the people at the top keep the people at the bottom fighting over scraps rather than wondering why the people at the top have everything
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
4:38 PM
I wonder what it would take to make it so that all bills have to be a single issue. A lot of crap gets pushed through by attaching it to another bill as a rider.
 
Tim B
Tim B
like "look at the dirty immigrants taking my jobs and kids school spaces and houses". When it's a false argument. Both people deserve jobs/school spaces/houses/etc.
just because my ancestors immigrated here before yours did should't give me any special priviledges
but it's easy for me to say/see that...I get paid ridiculous money to program computers for people
 
James
James
@TimB yup otherwise I would be working for the man of the sioux nation
 
Samuel
Samuel
@TimB Also, like they really wanted to pick berries for their job.
 
HDE 226868
HDE 226868
@TimB We're a nation of hypocrites. The vast majority of people who live in the US today are descended from people who immigrated here after 1492. We went on to call ourselves the land of opportunity, where the "American dream" could come true. But know that we're here, what do we do? Restrict people who come here like our ancestors did.
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
@TimB I think that most of that is about illegals. I don't think I've ever heard it brought up about people that have gone through the work that citizenship requires
 
Serban Tanasa
Serban Tanasa
4:40 PM
oh. politics. fun. [tiptoes away]
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
@SerbanTanasa People seem to be playing nice so far
 
Samuel
Samuel
@SerbanTanasa Get enough of that in DC?
 
James
James
its pretty civil so far @SerbanTanasa
 
HDE 226868
HDE 226868
20 mins ago, by AndyD273
@James and it's staying surprisingly civil...
 
Tim B
Tim B
@AndyD273 Whey are they illegal? It's not like american's ancestors got permits from the natives
 
Serban Tanasa
Serban Tanasa
4:41 PM
the problem w/ Europe vs America talks is that they always have an air of "our tribe" is better than yours
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
 
HDE 226868
HDE 226868
@AndyD273 Eh, but people lump it all together and don't care about the differences. It's always an "us vs. them" issue, it seems. I don't think legality has much to do with it for most people.
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
@TimB You know all those refugees that they are seeing throughout Europe? Same thing. They are illegal because they are there without going through the proper channels.
 
Serban Tanasa
Serban Tanasa
I for instance like Eastern Europe best
Romania has a flat tax of 16%
People know how to party
 
Tim B
Tim B
@AndyD273 Ok. So why are there "proper channels"? why does it/should it matter? The mass migration in europe atm is a problem only because it can overload local services but in the bigger picture...so what?
 
James
James
4:44 PM
Ways to fix American Politics. 1. No corporate money in elections 2. Rework districts so that no more than 70 percent can be 'conservative' or 'liberal' (if you have to compromise to make your constituents happy you can compromise in DC)
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
and some Europeans are handling the influx of "illegals" about as poorly as some Americans.
 
Tim B
Tim B
yep, this is very true
and there have been some genuine problems
but millions of people moving is hard to deal with
 
HDE 226868
HDE 226868
@James So if I understand correctly, 1. Elect Bernie Sanders. 2. No gerrymandering.
 
James
James
@HDE226868 ...weirdly yeah that sounds about right.
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
I would break the power of the 2 party system, it causes polarization and false dichotomies
 
James
James
4:46 PM
@bowlturner Agreed
 
Tim B
Tim B
Hmm, I can't help feeling that the primaries system makes things worse for y'all ... the candidates have to appeal to the hardcore on their side to get elected to run...which then makes them badly suited to compromise or work across the line once in office
 
James
James
What does it take to get a national referendum on something?
 
Tim B
Tim B
They would never allow a referendum on that, too much threat to the establishment powerbase
 
Serban Tanasa
Serban Tanasa
@HDE226868, the US president has no control over legislation. the Sanders platforms is hilariously vague on how they'll pay for all they say that they'll do.
 
HDE 226868
HDE 226868
@James In America? Enough change that could only be done via a referendum.
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
4:47 PM
@TimB I agree. But even before the refugee problems I shouldn't expect to walk into Sweden (for instance) and expect full rights as a citizen without some process taking place first
 
Samuel
Samuel
We won't ever get away from two parties unless our voting system changes.
 
Tim B
Tim B
also you're unlikely to make it work...too many peolpe will support "their" party (whatever that may be) no matter what happens
@AndyD273 Why not?
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
@TimB yes. I think Washington state has a different system where they have a run off where the top 2 candidates regardless of party are on the ballet. Makes for more central candidates.
 
HDE 226868
HDE 226868
@SerbanTanasa If Sanders was elected, though, I do think we would see a shift because of legislators aligning themselves with him. Or his support base might elect people who are like-minded, in the longer term.
 
Samuel
Samuel
The single vote per person system always converges on two parties.
 
Tim B
Tim B
4:48 PM
Yep, first past the post has the same effect here in the UK...
only that distorts things even more when you have geographically concentrated aprties
 
James
James
Honestly to put this out there...I used to consider myself a republican but lately...they seem to be going completely crazy
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
@Samuel Unfortunately I tend to agree with that
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
@TimB Ok, you live in the UK. Could I, as a foreigner, fly over there, purchase a house, and expect full rights including getting getting to vote, without some kind of paperwork to become a citizen?
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
@James much of the right of Democrats are about the same as 80's republicans
 
Serban Tanasa
Serban Tanasa
@James, Republicans hate me thinking I'm a democrat, and Democrats accuse me of rabid Republicanism
 
HDE 226868
HDE 226868
4:50 PM
@AndyD273 It sounds like more of a "should" than a "could".
 
bowlturner
bowlturner
@SerbanTanasa I get that two. I think both are mostly wrong
 
Samuel
Samuel
It's nicely described here - youtu.be/s7tWHJfhiyo
 
Tim B
Tim B
@AndyD273 No, you couldn't. But I personally think you should. Why should the accident of me being born here make any difference?
Well, "some paperwork". sure. registering that you exist, voter fraud checks, etc. No problem. But not the whole immigration jumping through hoops stuff they do atm
 
James
James
I've always been of the, pay your taxes, don't commit a felony and sure go vote.
 
Tim B
Tim B
@James yep, that's my position too basically :)
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
4:51 PM
@James 'What was it I heard about "No taxation without representation"?' I wonder while filling in my US tax forms.
 
James
James
@MikeL. lol
 
Serban Tanasa
Serban Tanasa
@HDE226868, when I was 18, I was also a lot more idealistic about how easy political change is to implement.
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
@TimB Right. That's what I mean by illegals though. People who jump the fence or whatever instead of doing a few things to get in the right way.
 
HDE 226868
HDE 226868
@SerbanTanasa Oh, I don't think it's easy by any stretch of the imagination.
 
Serban Tanasa
Serban Tanasa
@HDE226868 there's something called the Iron Law of Oligarchy
There's a reason they call it an "iron law"
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
4:54 PM
Maybe some people lump in anyone that hasn't been here 10 generations, but no one I know
 
James
James
The US immigration system takes roughly two years, at a bare minimum.
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
@AndyD273 Do you have a rough idea what it's like to try and get a US visa with a work permit?
 
HDE 226868
HDE 226868
@AndyD273 If the system's so easy, why are people jumping the fence in the first place? It seems to reflect more on the system than the people.
@SerbanTanasa Wow. But it makes sense.
 
Serban Tanasa
Serban Tanasa
Yeah
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
@HDE226868 because even the crap here is still better than they could expect from the hell they are running away from?
I do know there are a lot of hoops
and I know it's not fast
 
HDE 226868
HDE 226868
4:56 PM
@AndyD273 I meant instead of going through the established process - it assumes they don't have great options.
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
But there are a lot of people that do it
 
Tim B
Tim B
@AndyD273 It's essentially impossible unless you fit into a very narrow set of circumstances
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
One of my friends growing up had her mom deported back to Sweden for illegal immigration, and it sucked cause she was a really good person.
 
Tim B
Tim B
I could probably do it...but I'm from the UK, degree educated, good job, etc. Even then I'd have to jump through a lot of hoops. There's people who worked in the US for 20 years then got deported when they lost their jobs because they still didn't qualify
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
So I wonder, in a worldbuilding sort of way, how do you allow easy immigration without running into problems like with the refugee influx?
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
5:00 PM
@AndyD273 "A lot of hoops" is a nice euphemism. Say you get a PhD in a highly specialised field in which there are lots of unfilled openings in the Silicon Valley. Then you get hired by a company there because of your qualifications (or because you are cheap, as some might say). The visa that you're supposed to try and get according to the US government is, in this situation, H1-B. What do you expect is the chance you get it, if you do everything right?
 
Tim B
Tim B
@AndyD273 That's a really good question. Wish I had an easy solution
 
HDE 226868
HDE 226868
 
Serban Tanasa
Serban Tanasa
@MikeL. 135 k supply, what was the demand
 
Tim B
Tim B
just think how much tax they'd be paying if you legalised them all
it's the same problem as the "war on drugs" there is supply and demand. trying to restrict supply just increases demand/cost until supply becomes worthwhile
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
Immigration as a refugee is one avenue to perminate residence: http://www.wikihow.com/Immigrate-Into-the-United-States-Permanently
>Permanent resident status in the US is granted for four main reasons: family ties, employment, status as a refugee, and to promote diversity.[2] If you are granted permanent resident status, you will be given a permanent visa, otherwise known as a green card.
 
James
James
5:04 PM
@TimB and more violent
 
Serban Tanasa
Serban Tanasa
@HDE226868, Mexican immigration has been net negative for years now - i.e. more people leaving the US to go back to Mexico than coming in
 
Tim B
Tim B
By increasing value of supply and removing legal ways to meet it you force it into criminal hands. At that point violence is pretty much inevitable as people try to control the cash influx and keep it in their hands
 
HDE 226868
HDE 226868
@SerbanTanasa I saw some numbers that agree with that, but I also saw some stats that only reduced the illegal percentage by ~ 5%.
Lunch calls.
 
James
James
Yeah its about that time here too...Im feeling tacos for some reason
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
@SerbanTanasa Hehehe. Conspiracy theorist me just came up with a weird idea... maybe someone is trying to make life here look pretty crappy in order to deter people from coming in... would explain a few things.
 
Mike L.
Mike L.
5:12 PM
@SerbanTanasa By latest count it's about 23%. A big part of it is that there is a bunch of separate pools depending on what your qualifications are and whether you are from one of the preferred countries. If you aren't and you have at least a masters degree, there are only about ~17k visas available in that pool.
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
Last thought, then lunch: Something I'd like to see tried here as a way to remove a lot of rot from the system is term limits on all elected positions. Get them in while they are idealistic, work them hard, replace them before they get corrupted by the system.
$>xkcd {randomint 1200}
 
user153821
@AndyD273 Command contains invalid characters.
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
?>xkcd {{randomint 1 1600}}
 
DaaaahWhoosh
DaaaahWhoosh
you're using a question mark at the beginning
 
Pavel Janicek
Pavel Janicek
5:30 PM
$>xkcd {{randomint 1 1600}}
 
user153821
 
DaaaahWhoosh
DaaaahWhoosh
5:48 PM
It looks like I missed a big political debate
something about how it sucks to live in America, but it's hard to move there
2
sometimes I wish I knew more about politics, then I realize it would probably make me sad, and there wouldn't be much I could do about it
$>xkcd {{randomint 1 1600}}
 
user153821
 
Hohmannfan
Hohmannfan
$>say
 
user153821
@Hohmannfan Command not found. Did you mean: star?
 
AndyD273
AndyD273
@DaaaahWhoosh yeah, about right. I've occasionally thought about running for office in order to actually get to do something about the problems, and then I remember I don't want those headaches.
@DaaaahWhoosh Also, wasn't really much of a debate actually. Mostly a bunch of people standing around sharing their thoughts
 
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