The Whiteboard

4:02 PM

If someone was making a change to use case 6, then they wouldn't have much documentation to go on, unfortunately. But that's just constraints of working within project deadlines - eventually, time and money run out and you need to work on something else. So you pick up later.

Ampt

@enderland le gem

Robert Harvey

Bleaugh. 96 answers. Sole purpose: drive traffic to the site. Useless otherwise.

Thomas Owens

It looks like there aren't many good tools to support synchronizing code to design representations. So perhaps I'm already in the best possible state?

And I should just keep doing what I'm doing: prioritizing design views and decisions based on criteria (requirement priority, impact, likelihood to change) and hand modifying everything.

deostroll

Could anyone humour me on the usage of TraceEventCache? Does subclassing it make any sense? #csharp #tracing #diagnostics

Thomas Owens

4:23 PM

I'm about to grab lunch, but I think the right approach is to just keep doing what the standard process has been. Describe the design by hand in real-time. Your diagram tool editor's files are saved to a central location. You should probably be updating the visuals and text along the code and peer reviewing it all together.

If anyone (@enderland @RobertHarvey) have any other thoughts, let me know.

Robert Harvey

@JimmyHoffa: programmers.stackexchange.com/a/301734/1204

Duga

@Kyll I disagree. This question is not deleted and people can post answers to it. If it's off topic - delete it or at least close it. I think the tool will help fellows programmers to solve their problems and many times have I benefited from recommendations on tools from others on this site. — ren 42 secs ago

user41796

4:43 PM

Mwah ha ha ha ha! Score one for the programmers today.

Lightness Races in Orbit

zing

user41796

He got the memo

Lightness Races in Orbit

@RobertHarvey that stuff is where I begin to get lost :(

the black art of enterprise

user41796

You give me sh!t specs and expect me to come up with accurate time estimates? Try again.

Jimmy Hoffa

:25161533 > I'm croggling the jibberlator; it's all going pretty well. I should have moved on to the carbuncking stage tomorrow at this rate.

user41796

4:46 PM

@JimmyHoffa I know, right?

user41796

But I called that part out and started with "I know you hate hearing this from me because you can't plan. Here's what I'm working from..."

enderland

lol

user114359

@JimmyHoffa You know what really croggles my jibberlator? When I'm balancing a credit card statement and I'm off by 5 cents

enderland

@Snowman I've alwys thought that companies could make tons of money simply by having small errors in their statements to skim a few cents off everyone. probably no one would notice and the people who do might question THEIR math rather than the companies...

user114359

Lolol, Amazon refunded me 5 cents for some reason. Now that I have an extra 5 cents on my Discover, I can buy 5% of a candy bar!

Jimmy Hoffa

4:49 PM

@enderland you think this isn't common? It's called fraud and it's a multi-billion dollar a year business

user114359

@enderland Superman 3 called, they want their plot back

Lightness Races in Orbit

> You know what really croggles my jibberlator?

lmao

@enderland There's a phrase for that. It's embezzlement and there are plenty of people in jail for it!

Jimmy Hoffa

@LightnessRacesinOrbit you're not from America, here embezzlers just pay lawyers and create new businesses

Lightness Races in Orbit

what is this .. "America" .. of which you speak? sounds ghastly.

Jimmy Hoffa

also; that's not embezzlement is it? I thought embezzlement was when you just took money that was meant for a specific purpose and put it to your own use; like taking your company's revenues meant for shareholders/employee salary and just buying a new car

user114359

4:54 PM

@LightnessRacesinOrbit it is a place full of crime, cheeseburgers, and a snobbiness that rivals the French.

Jimmy Hoffa

It's called embezzlement when politicians take campaign donations and just go on cruises with it for example where campaign donations are intended for a specific purpose - I think ?

Lightness Races in Orbit

that's just outright theft

enderland

@RobertHarvey for that python question I'm intrigued... it seems that if you do the Klasse1.variable1 it's not actually instantiating a class at all. does python magically make it a static variable call work?

Lightness Races in Orbit

technically you're right

embezzlement usually involves surreptitiousness, often via skimming

Jimmy Hoffa

@LightnessRacesinOrbit yeah but charging more than you're supposed to isn't skimming, saying "It's $5" and then charging $6 is fraud I believe

user41796

4:59 PM

embezzlement

Noun: embezzlement ‎(plural embezzlements)

(law, business) The fraudulent conversion of property from a property owner.

user41796

fraud

Noun: fraud ‎(plural frauds)

(law) The crime of stealing or otherwise illegally obtaining money by use of deception tactics.
The assumption of a false identity to such deceptive end.

Verb: fraud ‎(third-person singular simple present frauds, present participle frauding, simple past and past participle frauded)

(obsolete) To defraud

user41796

There ya go

Jimmy Hoffa

user41796

Embezzlement is a subset of a fraud

enderland

@JimmyHoffa this made me laugh out loud. lol. :)

Jimmy Hoffa

5:00 PM

yesterday, by MichaelT

Jul 28 '14 at 18:52, by Jimmy Hoffa

<--- Helping.

Lightness Races in Orbit

@JimmyHoffa Fraud is a broad umbrella. Embezzlement is a type of fraud, and that scenario counts.

Thomas Owens

OK guys. My girlfriend is learning about programming through online courses. She's doing really well with Ruby, but wants to learn other languages (Python, JavaScript) and some web frameworks (jQuery, Rails, Django maybe). When should I give her a book like Code Complete or Pragmatic Programmer and when should I give it to her?

Lightness Races in Orbit

When's her birthday?

Jimmy Hoffa

@LightnessRacesinOrbit If you think Freud is a broad you may have mommy issues, that's what he'd say anyway

Thomas Owens

@LightnessRacesinOrbit I have the books. I was just going to bring one home for her.

Lightness Races in Orbit

5:06 PM

@JimmyHoffa I hate that you can make these terrible puns and get away scotch free

@ThomasOwens Do it on her birthday!

Robert Harvey

@enderland In Python, everything is an object, including the class definitions. There's even a metaclass object that describes how to create a class object. That's about the extent of my understanding, though it does explain the behavior the OP is seeing.

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens the first time you hear her say she was working on/reading through someone elses code and declares it's a feckin' pile

Thomas Owens

@LightnessRacesinOrbit That's next August.

@JimmyHoffa That'll be a while, I think.

Lightness Races in Orbit

As for the "when should I give it to her" part well that's a bit personal

Thomas Owens

@LightnessRacesinOrbit :|

user41796

5:07 PM

@ThomasOwens Kind of a judgement call based upon how far she's progressed.

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens which is perfectly fine. Until you're looking at other peoples stuff and recognizing there's something clearly off you're not really ready for the idea of good vs. bad design practices I don't think

Lightness Races in Orbit

rule #1: everybody else's code is shit

Thomas Owens

@GlenH7 One of the tutorials she's using has her using GitHub with a more freeform project. Maybe just before or immediately after that?

user41796

When you're trying to grok programming, those books are simply overload. But once you've got the core idea in place, then it's a good time to start introducing the good habits those books introduce

user41796

@ThomasOwens perhaps after. It helps to have screwed up a project first so you can have that "a-ha!" moment

Jimmy Hoffa

5:08 PM

@LightnessRacesinOrbit It's all still just code and logic and stuff in your head for the first good while though, there's a point you have to get to in having a fluid recognition of basic logic before you can make that leap

Thomas Owens

OK. So after her first freeform project. Which book first? I'm thinking Code Complete first.

user41796

Probably yes

Thomas Owens

Although Pragmatic Programmer is less dense. Making it less scary.

Lightness Races in Orbit

@JimmyHoffa no need to make the leap; just remember the rule

Thomas Owens

I know that I'm not going to give her the GoF book. Ever.

Actually, maybe in like...20 years.

Jimmy Hoffa

5:13 PM

@ThomasOwens to be fair you're already late in giving her Learn You A Haskell; for shame.

@GlenH7 thus my point about looking at other peoples code and saying it's crap. That doesn't happen until you can see past the core logic and start to actually see structure

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa I wonder how good she would be as Haskell.

The only problem is that I barely understand Haskell.

So I know I wouldn't be able to help at all.

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens I genuinely think adults with little coding experience would likely start off better at Haskell than experienced coders. The switch from imperative to declarative is so jarring to us that have been writing procedures/routines for years.

Aaron Hall

5:29 PM

I've been working on a new Python package. Not really sure what license to do it under (WTFYL?). I want to tell people that they have the ethical and moral (but not the legal) obligation to give me credit. I've been trying to get it in good order to post on github and pypi - .travis.yml, directory structure (/app, /test, /docs). I need to unittest it, too (not unittested yet!) and write docs. I've been working with a demo main, so far. Thoughts? Should I just put it out there and not worry?

user41796

@AaronHall BSD or MIT are better options

user41796

WTFPL is questionable regarding legal standing, although it does send a pretty clear message that you'll never pursue anything against someone who uses the license

user41796

But BSD and MIT do a much better job at covering that and do a better job at disclaiming any warranty on the library

Jimmy Hoffa

screw that, DBAD license FTW.

Ampt

@ThomasOwens give her the GOF book now so she can mess her first project up even more, promptly give up on coding, and ensure on fewer competent coder to compete with in the marketplace! MWAHAHAHAHA

user41796

5:33 PM

If you really want people to provide attribution, use the BSD 3-clause.

Ampt

@AaronHall Unit Tested** it's not a magical phrase :)

enderland

@Ampt i feel like this is where the cynical people of the chat room should pipe in telling you there is no competition anyways

:\

Aaron Hall

BSD and MIT...

BSD 3?

user41796

depends upon what you want to do

user41796

bsd 3-clause is frowned upon because the attribution option gets onerous over time

Jimmy Hoffa

5:44 PM

@AaronHall pfft, DBAD license ftw

enderland

how do I tell my annoying coworker complaining about everything coworker "stfu unless you wantto take action, stop complaining"

Thomas Owens

This room should write the BMAS License.

user41796

Oy. More close votes would be nice

Aaron Hall

DBAD looks cool. I wonder why my firm's NetNanny blocks it?

user41796

@JimmyHoffa it's in the same category as the WTFPL

user41796

5:50 PM

@AaronHall DBAD == Don't be a d!ck

user41796

that last part is likely why it's being filtered

Aaron Hall

Yeah, but they don't mean it literally.

It's in the figurative sense. So it's ok. Right?

user41796

filters are blind justice....

Aaron Hall

Yeah, I don't want it to be onerous. I just want a little credit for it.

I'm going to look at those licenses and tweak them, and call mine "Don't Be A Jerk, (and I won't be a Jerk either) Public License"

user41796

@AaronHall try this: creativecommons.org/choose

Aaron Hall

6:02 PM

Maybe I'll just release it to the Public domain with my assertions about ethics and whatnot, and see what happens.

user41796

Minimal harm in that as well

user41796

public domain isn't consistently defined across all jurisdictions, so it's a problematic term. OTOH, I don't think you care.

Aaron Hall

blog.codinghorror.com/pick-a-license-any-license

user41796

Note that public domain doesn't require them to provide any attribution back to you

Aaron Hall

Ethics is not the same as legally binding.

user41796

6:06 PM

@AaronHall I'm only a few paragraphs in, but I can already tell that Jeff is talking out of his azz on that one

Lightness Races in Orbit

MY CODE COMPILES

haha false alarm

user41796

And I just finished skimming Jeff's article - I'm not going to go so far as to call it complete sh!t, but it's close

enderland

@GlenH7 the first comment made me lol

Aaron Hall

Well, I kinda like his perspective

user41796

At the time he wrote that article, he had a fundamental misunderstanding on the difference between copyright and licensing

enderland

6:08 PM

> If you prefer the WTFPL license so much, why do you require those who ask to use your code to keep your name and url in the comments?

user41796

@AaronHall Pretending to be an ostrich and sticking your head in the sand is not a sane solution to the problem.

Aaron Hall

can you clearly state the problem?

user41796

Because the people you really, really want to use your software bother to look at licenses. And if the license is vague, they walk away

Aaron Hall

So stick to the boilerplates that get the most adoption?

which are MIT and BSD?

What's Linux under again?

user41796

Understanding licenses is a hard problem to tackle. Beyond the simple ones, you really need to have a solid grounding in the legal framework of most jurisdictions.

user41796

6:10 PM

MIT and BSD are the most commonly used licenses for you what you stated you wanted

user41796

The CC-Attribution would be another good one.

user41796

(most of) Linux is GPL'd

user41796

but there's large swaths of MIT and BSD within Linux / unix

enderland

> The archetypal bearded, sandal-clad free software license. Your code can never be used in any proprietary program, ever! Take that, capitalism!

Hah. I wonder how Jeff really feels about GPL

user41796

Given that licenses are hard to get right, using a non-license (I'm looking at you WTFPL and DBAD) is not a very good solution

user41796

6:12 PM

You're truly better off just declaring "public domain." That at least has a corpus of legal rumination behind it.

user41796

WTFPL and DBAD haven't seen enough exposure in courts and are therefore suspect in what will become of them

user41796

@enderland Jeff was more worried about eyeballs than being correct when he was writing his blog

user41796

There's a German court case coming up that will involve the GPL. I'm curious to see how it plays out as it will potentially have ramifications for the software licensing world.

user41796

techweekeurope.co.uk/software/kernel-vmware-gpl-164208 was the first link that came up

Aaron Hall

Is this what I"m looking for then? tldrlegal.com/license/mit-license

amon

6:20 PM

@GlenH7 CC-BY-* licenses are completely unsuitable for code, and even problematic in some cases. E.g. you can't use CC-BY-* stuff in a GPL project, which is usually not the intention. MIT is the most compatible source license that still requires attribution; CC-0 is the best mechanism to put stuff into public domain.

user41796

@AaronHall yes

user41796

@amon Curses! You uncovered my anti-Stallman plan

user55340

@GlenH7 I'll dig up his stuff on hating the BSD license and how clang and llvm is evil because it enables closed source companies.

Jimmy Hoffa

@LightnessRacesinOrbit it's C++, until it's been running in production for 6 months there's no guarantee it can compile at all

enderland

to be fair, it could have compiled once and run inproduction and then magically not be able to compile too. you just never konw

Jimmy Hoffa

6:27 PM

@AaronHall if you genuinely want the possibility for corporate use of your code - by any company or person to profit, then don't use a phony license like WTFPL or DBAD, the grey areas in impooperly licensed code involve the possibility for users to be sued by arbitrary trolls claiming personal rights. Not to mention the vast majority or corps will have clear rules to just never use anything with a license not of X, Y, or Z

Lightness Races in Orbit

@GlenH7 lol "on that one"

amon

@GlenH7 My anti-Stallman plan is to let that guy keep talking. I really like free software philosophy incl. the virality of the GPL, but he does have a knack for alienating people from his cause.

I once read the GNU project maintainer handbook, which was half sensible guidance (use version control!), half “How to lead a sect for Dummies” (e.g. how to carefully approach interested contributors and get them to sign away their soul^H^H copyright).

Jimmy Hoffa

@AaronHall federal license for something technological?

something atomic?

damnit that license picture is trolling me

too blurry

user114359

@amon I am still proud of the fact that RMS flamed me on Usenet back in the 1990s. I wear his smelly, hairy invective like a badge of honor.

Jimmy Hoffa

somebody help me figure out what this license is for damnit I can do nothing else until I know

yep, I was right, federal license for some atomic technology

why the hell did he use a russian registration for what's probably a nuclear power reactor?

I feel better now that I know, carry on.

enderland

6:46 PM

I'm tempted to ask the people having a meeting RIGHT BY my desk area "can I help you?" in a FYI SHUTTUP attempt :(

hahahahhahahahaahah

I already have a headache today

Lightness Races in Orbit

0

Q: Why can't a const pointer be set afterwards?

I know this is probably a trivial question. What is the logic behind not being able to set a const pointer after its declaration? It's not as if allocating memory will change the starting address which is what the const refers to. So why can't this... int* const p; p = new int [10]; ... be don...

just read that title

enderland

and don't want to increase volume of music to deal with them chattering away

Lightness Races in Orbit

it's amazing

enderland

const means like 3 things in C++ though

maybe he's confused which one :P

Lightness Races in Orbit

const means one thing in C++

Jimmy Hoffa

6:49 PM

@LightnessRacesinOrbit const means everything in C++ EVERYTHING

Lightness Races in Orbit

you are mistaken

Jimmy Hoffa

@LightnessRacesinOrbit constantly so!

Lightness Races in Orbit

constantly

heh

enderland

const caused me a ton of debugging issues once because it caused different behavior on different systems

Lightness Races in Orbit

what why

your code must have been very wrong

enderland

6:50 PM

well, maybe not the const part

but my coworker used it ALL the time

Lightness Races in Orbit

(I'm not trying to be a dick but srsly)

Jimmy Hoffa

@LightnessRacesinOrbit it was C++, correct code wasn't an option

Lightness Races in Orbit

pfft

enderland

as I reflect on it it might have been independent of the const part?

now that I'm wiser and older. lol

Jimmy Hoffa

Jul 12 '13 at 14:43, by Jimmy Hoffa

I'm helping

enderland

6:51 PM

but either way it was a screwy c++ thing

> const QString foo(){
return const QString("hello world");
}

Jimmy Hoffa

seriously though, I recall trying to make sense of const a few times and getting close but mostly lacking any understanding of why it had the myriad meanings it did; like if you put it before a type meant one thing, after a type another, on a function something different; I mostly failed at C++ just in general

I may be good at a variety of coding things, but C++ has shown not to be one of them

Telastyn

I never really used const in C++

Jimmy Hoffa

const int * Constant2
int const * Constant2
int * const Constant3
int const * const Constant4

those are all valid things apparently, I'm sure there's a good reason for it but I don't know it

Aaron Hall

what are the semantics?

Jimmy Hoffa

@AaronHall iduno, I flunk C++

Aaron Hall

6:56 PM

I'm just a lowly Python programmer.

enderland

@JimmyHoffa this is what was confusing to me, you could put it in a lot of places and it had related but not really the same meaning

Aaron Hall

I'm sure if we figure this out we'll all pass the C++ exam on Friday.

user114359

@JimmyHoffa pointer to const int, const pointer to int, const pointer to const int, plus the const and int can be swapped and it means the same thing

user114359

In other words, the pointer can be const, the thing to which it points can be const, or both can be const.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Snowman and what do those things do?

Aaron Hall

6:59 PM

what's a const int?

user114359

@JimmyHoffa const int * x the pointer cannot be reassigned, but I can change the value it points to

Jimmy Hoffa

maybe C# has warped my brain because in C# const is basically #define

user114359

int * const x I can reassign the pointer, but cannot change the value to which it points

Aaron Hall

is const short for constant?

user114359

const int * const x I can change neither the pointer nor the value to which it points

user114359

6:59 PM

@AaronHall yes

Jimmy Hoffa

@Snowman does it have to point at a const value in this case?

Aaron Hall

in lisp, cons is short for construct.

user114359

@JimmyHoffa no. You can always "promote" to const. It is safe to say "I want to be not able to change this value that can be changed"

user114359

So if you have a function that accepts a const parameter because you only need to read the value, that function works with both const and non-const parameters.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Snowman so it's defining the accessibility available on the (member|local|parameter) regardless of the accessibility of what it references

Aaron Hall

7:02 PM

so sticking const in front of a variable makes it immutable?

amon

in C++, const and volatile are a type-level qualification of how a piece of memory is to be used. const disallows mutation or reassignment of some memory/variable/field. Unfortunately, the const system is flawed – it does not actually guarantee that a value doesn't change, only that I can't write to the storage. Also, mutable fields subvert the memory-level const semantics.

user114359

@AaronHall no, immutability is different. If all of a type's inner data is const then it is probably immutable.

user114359

@JimmyHoffa correct.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Snowman ok statements like that make it seem hopelessly unclear

user114359

@JimmyHoffa This is true in most languages. If I declare an object reference final in Java, it works the same way. I cannot reassign that reference, but the object itself, its "guts," can change.

Jimmy Hoffa

7:04 PM

@Snowman so it's like readonly in C#

user114359

This is one reason why immutable types are so important. If I know String is immutable, and I have a final reference to one, I know nothing can change.

Jimmy Hoffa

in C# const only works on primitives and the compiler subtitutes the value as a literal in-place

user114359

But if I have an AtomicReference (used for thread-safety) that is final, all I know is the reference object cannot be reassigned but its contents can.

Jimmy Hoffa

in C# a readonly field can be set once at runtime and never again even though if it's a List<string> you can add and remove elements from it, just not reassign the field itself

user114359

@JimmyHoffa same idea

Jimmy Hoffa

7:09 PM

so whats a void booger() const;

user114359

@JimmyHoffa Means the booger cannot change the object on which it is called. Useful for functions such as operator==() const or functions that return const objects (accessors). A const function that returns nothing and accepts no parameters is useless.

user114359

another good example is const std::string getWidget() const

amon

void foo() const can still have arbitrary side-effects not related to the object. const methods != pure functions

user114359

@amon but without a parameter, what could it do other than call const methods on objects it contains, which in turn have the same restriction?

Jimmy Hoffa

@Snowman throw an exception

user114359

7:13 PM

I agree they are not necessarily pure from a definition perspective

Jimmy Hoffa

stupid question, does C++ have exceptions? try/catch?

I thought it did but hellifiknow

user41796

@JimmyHoffa yes, it does

user114359

@JimmyHoffa sure does. In fact they are "better" than other languages because you can literally throw anything. You can throw an int if you want.

Aaron Hall

In Python packaging, you can define your API by convention (underscore prefixed names are not exported with an import *) or configuration (overriding convention by assigning a list to the variable name, __all__). I'm not sure what's best. I think I should use convention as I develop, and switch to configuration when I'm ready to publish and accept outside contributions.

amon

But it's a pain to write exception-safe code in C++, since many people do not “get” RAII (aka. everyone cleans up for themselves in a destructor).

user41796

7:15 PM

@Snowman - how'd you get Stallman to flame you?

user41796

Did you just troll him with corporations should have the right to their intellectual property?

user41796

@amon what's wrong with "I CAN HAZ MOAH MEMORY LEAK?"

user114359

@GlenH7 I honestly don't remember. I was young and stupid.

user114359

I don't remember what he said back to me, either, just that he cussed me out

user41796

Nice

user41796

7:21 PM

I mean, it's nothing to get someone like Torvalds to cuss you out. But to be cussed out by Stallman - now that's something

user114359

@GlenH7 I seem to remember him being a bit abrupt with others on Usenet too

user114359

He was quick to speak his mind, for better or for worse

user114359

Unlike Linus, RMS will say nice things about others

Aaron Hall

I like to point out that if it weren't for Stallman, Linux and FOSS wouldn't be anywhere near where it is today.

user41796

Stallman is probably one of the most influential and underrated intellectuals within the realm of computing

user114359

7:28 PM

I think he's a dirty hippy, but we need him.

Thomas Owens

@GlenH7 I know that once, Stallman picked something off from his foot and then put it in his mouth and it didn't come out of his mouth.

user41796

He's a visionary who was taken by the pure magic of what computing can represent, and understandably wanted to push the community towards the ideal that he envisioned

user41796

@ThomasOwens Never claimed he was sane

Thomas Owens

I guess they aren't mutually exclusive, are they?

user41796

Not in the least bit

user41796

7:31 PM

The mad genius trope is one that has survived the test of time, over and over again.

user114359

"...although computers are getting really good at chess, they still suck at football." — Snowman 1 min ago

user114359

One of my favorite Dave Barry quotes

user41796

@Snowman Your link is better than mine, I must admit

Aaron Hall

has a bad dream Hippies, hippies everywhere, they want to save the world, but all they do is smoke pot and smell bad.

user114359

@GlenH7 As soon as I saw the title the first thing that popped into my head was a bit... off-topic... for this site. Let's just say it involves little snowboys and snowgirls 9 months later. Then, thanks to Dave Barry, I remembered that computers suck at live sports too.

Thomas Owens

7:36 PM

@Snowman It depends on how you define "live sports".

user114359

@ThomasOwens physically throwing the football to a cornerback, like my team does.

user41796

World is tearing up the incoming tide for us!

user114359

@GlenH7 World is ~~tearing up the incoming tide for us~~ conserving our close votes!

user114359

I mean I only have 16 in the queue, and I should be working now anyway

user41796

I'm already out for the day, so I'm afraid there's none of mine to conserve

enderland

7:44 PM

omfg. this meeting is like 20 questions for "guess what the hidden business requirements are"

Aaron Hall

The color printer prints single-sided just fine, but always jams on double-sided printing. I don't care, so I tell people they can make it work by printing single-sided. Instead they seem to prefer wasting their time with jamming printers.

Ampt

Day 3: The developers have started negotiations with a rival tribe they refer to as "the designers". Relations seem to be cold, despite the number and length of negotiations between the groups. They haven't yet let me join in these meetings, but I can only assume that their differences are great, due to the angry nature in which they refer to eachother.

2

Lightness Races in Orbit

troo

user114359

Ah, the good old days of Programmers:

user114359

4

Q: Amount of man hours to write a social network

I have big dreams of writing the next Facebook (unrealistic I know) and I'm in the planning stages as we speak and I'm umming and ahing about using a php framework for this and how many development hours it would actually save me. If any? Also is it unrealistic for one person to hand code an enti...

web-development frameworks personal-projects social-networks

Ampt

7:46 PM

The developers seem anxious to bring a neutral third party known only as project manager to help them come to an agreement. Apparently this group wields great power over both groups.

user41796

> Color me grateful...

Ampt

@Snowman Pick one: Good old days | Old Programmers

user114359

What would really fry that guy's noodle is that while he is busy writing "the next Facebook," Facebook is still a work in progress. Most software is never done.

user55340

@Ampt you should make a Twitter account and tweet these. "Imposter developer" or something like that.

enderland

honestly. it's a-freaking-mazing how annoying this week has been

Ampt

7:55 PM

cough cough I think you're getting sick

enderland

funny story, I feel horrible today

Ampt

nothing you can do

welp, time to pack it in for the day I suppose

enderland

I have to make a 50 slide powerpoint tonight for my class project too. FML.

Thomas Owens

Cloud based tools suck.

Ampt

Really sick.

@MichaelT As soon as I start taking it seriously I'll run out of shit to say. It's inevitable.

Thomas Owens

7:59 PM

Elaborate.

Ampt

EXPLAAAAAIN

</dalek>

enderland

they make a cloud-based system which, basically, provides a database that maintains a ton of data so you can link multiple cloud based front ends together (primarily for financial accounting where it's importnat)

Thomas Owens

@enderland That's not why they suck.

enderland

2 mins ago, by Thomas Owens

Elaborate.

Ampt

2 mins ago, by Ampt

EXPLAAAAAIN

Thomas Owens

8:02 PM

Actually, they don't suck. People who provide cloud based solutions and don't offer a self-hosted version suck. Because I need to deal with things like this.

enderland

I am so glad I don't work in the DoD related stuff

Ixrec

@Ampt WE WILL EXPLAIN LATER

enderland

I feel like you have more paperwork/processes than me and I feel like I live in them

Ampt

Thomas Owens

@enderland Processes? Yeah. Paperwork? NOT WHEN I'M THROUGH! DEATH TO PAPER!

Ixrec

8:04 PM

I'm so glad I work at a financial data provider, instead of one of the companies that actually trades securities itself

enderland

4 hours ago, by Thomas Owens

I could sketch out data flows for a handful of use cases in a few hours. Dia is slower than pen and paper. Both are error prone. But is this approach really the best thing that we have?

SOUNDS LIKE PAPER :P

Aaron Hall

If you have adblock, you can block the specific gifs you don't want to see...

enderland

I do that occasionally with stuff in chat :)

Ixrec

gifs are fine as long as they aren't posted at the tail end of a conversation so they linger at the bottom of the room for the next few hours

user41796

Why does chat room traffic have to die off when there's a blinking gif in the history? :-(

Thomas Owens

8:07 PM

@enderland The design process is upcoming on my hitlist of paperwork. I think I've found a good tool: Visual Paradigm. We would just need a central server to store our models, and it would integrate with whatever Systems Engineering does. Not enough Reverse Engineering capabilities for me at the moment, but I'd talk to the vendor about enhancements.

user114359

@GlenH7 I don't know what you are talking out

user114359

Not at all

user114359

This room is not dead

user114359

No sir.

user41796

It paused

user114359

8:08 PM

Actually...

user41796

And the gif is almost gone from this tab

enderland

FINALLY

Ixrec

it's been gone for a while now

user114359

I am not sure which animated gif you are talking about!

enderland

we don't have to explain anything anymore

need higher resolution monitors :P

user41796

8:08 PM

@Ixrec ha ha. My monitor is bigger than yours.

Ixrec

my browser isn't maximized =)

enderland

1900x1200 ftw

user55340

Ixrec

I have a second browser on the other side of the screen with a youtube video playing

user114359

@enderland my second monitor is lower res (1600x900) because that's all I could afford at the time. My main monitor is full HD and a few more inches across though

Ixrec

8:09 PM

and mIRC in the corner

all of which overlap partially

user41796

@MichaelT Working on another annotation on your account? :-D

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec gads, talk about an application I forgot even existed

enderland

/me slags Ixrec

Jimmy Hoffa

I just use emacs built-in irc client if I ever need to pester the scary IRC-land these days

user55340

@Annoying("smartarse")
public class MichaelT { ... }

Ixrec

8:11 PM

slags?

user55340

@GlenH7 that type... Right?

user41796

@enderland sed s/slag/slap/

enderland

oh. lol.

slags sounds a lot cooler

no wonder it didn't work!

Ixrec

I thought that was some obscure IRC thing

user55340

It is much cooler if you play borderlands 2.

user55340

8:12 PM

Though the pre sequel is even cooler as it replaces slag with cryo.

enderland

Wikipedia:Whacking with a wet trout

The above is a WikiTrout (Oncorhynchus macrowikipediensis), used to make subtle adjustments to the clue levels of experienced Wikipedians. To whack a user with a wet trout, simply place {{trout}} on his or her talk page. For newcomers (or for a less spammy version), use a {{minnow}}, {{diet trout small}} or {{diet trout}}. For a styleable version that can, e.g., be floated the right of talk page posts, use {{minnow}}. For not-so-subtle adjustments, try a {{whale}}. Any Wikipedian who wants to advertise an openness to being trout-slapped can add {{trout me}} to the top of his or her user page. ...

Ixrec

the trout thing I am very familiar with

also my fourth screen corner has iTunes, which I'm sure annoys some of you even more

and somewhere under these guys is a Notepad++

user55340

8:39 PM

So tempted to post the blinking light again.

Ampt

@GlenH7 My bad :) You could have deleted it :P

user41796

@MichaelT Apropos of nothing, did you know mods can delete chat messages without actually banning anyone? :-P

user41796

@Ampt Considered. But the chat picked back up

Ampt

@GlenH7 What? More flashing gifs. I'm on the case.

you guys must hate Dr. Who

user41796

@Ampt I'll out you as the ~~decepticon~~ deceptive developer

Ampt

8:43 PM

I couldn't help it hahaha

user41796

Couldn't help but hit the delete button? The rest of us appreciate it...

user55340

Remember, feeds hates @Ampt

Ampt

@GlenH7 Awwww don't get your beard in a twist ya old fart. Makes it too easy to pick on you.

user41796

@MichaelT Someone had to have flagged that one, IMO

Ampt

@GlenH7 I just don't see why?

user41796

8:46 PM

@Ampt That's why I keep the beard neatly trimmed...

Ampt

I mean it was a little graphic, but ban worthy?

and it was too fast

user41796

In honor of movember (or whatever), I considered letting it grow out. But meh...

user41796

@Ampt In the context of the conversation, it was nothing. Chat flags show up as just the individual comment without context though

Ampt

@GlenH7 but I was banned almost instantly

Like I couldn't even get a second message off

I'm almost positive it was a glitch

user41796

That just takes us back to Feeds not liking probiotics, I guess

Ampt

8:48 PM

Something about the texture, if I had to guess

checks account status

user41796

probiotic texture is probably better as smooth and not chunky

Ampt

ugh you're gonna make me gag

user41796

I suppose I should stop. No need for mod flags to be thrown in here.

user114359

@GlenH7 I thought about growing it for Movember, then I realized that both my wife and I hate facial hair.

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