The Nineteenth Byte

Anonymous

2:03 PM

Shadow of the Colossus was the best game to come out on PS2 tbh

Ugh, the Fibonacci situation is really annoying me... I've been looking through the answers a bit, to see if requiring F(6) = 8 would invalidate any answers (of course it would, but then again it's not clear if that's even allowed under the current rules). and then there are answers that certainly aren't even valid under the current rules, including the top-voted one :/

Rainbolt

Link?

Martin Büttner

this: codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/85/8478

Anonymous

Is the question whether or not it should be zero-indexed?

Rainbolt

Jon Skeet used to golf?

PhiNotPi

2:07 PM

I think my friend is choosing to learn Python over Perl. :(

Martin Büttner

@Mego the question is whether or not the challenge should get some heavy editing to turn it into a catalogue with a proper leaderboard

@Rainbolt I didn't even notice, heh :)

it's his only answer though

Anonymous

@MartinBüttner Since there's inconsistency in the answers for zero-vs-one, it's probably best to just make a new challenge with it specified

Rainbolt

Could you copy answers from the old challenge to the new one and still be competitive?

Martin Büttner

I've been thinking about that as well, but it doesn't seem to be accepted practice at all here to post a better version of an old challenge and close the old one as a duplicate

Anonymous

For the catalogue questions, I don't think they should really be competitive

Geobits

2:09 PM

?

Martin Büttner

@Mego well competitive within the language

Anonymous

There shouldn't be an "accepted answer" since we're trying to get the shortest within the language

Martin Büttner

that's still a form of "competitive" ;)

Anonymous

One answer per language, no accepting answers, specify zero-or-one-indexed, add the leaderboard stack snippet

Anonymous

Maybe require all answers to be community wiki answers?

Martin Büttner

2:11 PM

@Mego "one answer per language" why?

@Mego oh god, this is getting worse :D

Rainbolt

You read my mind

Anonymous

Isn't the goal of it to catalogue the shortest possible solutions in a language?

Anonymous

Or am I misunderstanding the purpose of the catalogue questions?

Geobits

That's the "goal" of half the site, to be honest.

Rainbolt

Can someone explain to me in layman's terms what a catalogue question is?

Geobits

2:12 PM

@Rainbolt A [code-golf] without an accepted answer.

Martin Büttner

@Rainbolt It's really just a code golf.

Anonymous

9

Q: Does PPCG fulfil a role as a catalogue for golfed solution of standard programming exercises?

Rosetta Code collects solutions to standard programming exercises in hundreds of programming languages. However, it focuses on "good" or idiomatic solutions in those languages. I'm not aware of a similar catalogue from a golfing perspective. Is PPCG capable of fulfilling that role? Do we have cha...

Martin Büttner

But it appears to help to explicitly say "hey this is totally a challenge within each language not between languages" to get more answers in non-golfing and esoteric languages.

@Mego Sure, but how does this purpose benefit from allowing only one answer per language?

(Or making the answers CW)

Rainbolt

If it's really just a code golf then why does Mego keep using this other term for it? Am I missing something?

Geobits

It's not Mego that started that. Blame Martin ;)

Anonymous

2:14 PM

@MartinBüttner Since it's competing within languages, having two answers in the same language is redundant and unnecessary - the shorter one is the one we want

Geobits

@Mego You could say the same about all of the site, no?

Anonymous

Ehh

Anonymous

I think I just have a different idea of what was meant by the meta post

Martin Büttner

@Rainbolt Let me try to explain the "difference" with the first "catalogue" challenge we had: codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/55422/8478 ... is it different from any other code golf? no. does it provide a more "useful" or relevant reference than most challenges? yes. why? because I called it a catalogue (I feel like if I hadn't, the score would be -123 instead because the challenge is "too trivial").

Anonymous

I imagined a set of questions that were more like Rosetta Code than our normal golfs

Martin Büttner

2:16 PM

@Mego The other answer might have a different approach which someone else might be able to golf further eventually. We have the leaderboard to sort out which answer is shortest in each language.

Beta Decay

Okay, here's my avatar that I've actually put effort into ;)

Anonymous

@MartinBüttner I suppose that's true. Ignore my suggestion for that restriction, then :P

Anonymous

@BetaDecay Looks good

Rainbolt

@MartinBüttner That makes sense to me. The stack snippet is definitely useful

This other talk of duplicating challenges and community wiki is just crazy though

2

Beta Decay

@Mego Thanks. Pixlr is a good free tool ;D

Anonymous

2:18 PM

So basically the way the HW challenge went

Martin Büttner

@Rainbolt Sure, but I've been using that stack snippet for ages on all sorts of challenges.

Anonymous

No accepted answer, leaderboard by shortest in each language

Anonymous

We should also have different major language versions count separately, where relevant

Martin Büttner

@Rainbolt Well... it depends... there are some really bad challenges that prevent a better version being posted because we don't close old questions as duplicates of new ones.

Rainbolt

@MartinBüttner The catalogue description takes up a huge amount of space though. How about "Read this meta post if you want to be included. Otherwise, you will not be included in the leaderboard."

Geobits

2:19 PM

I agree that we shouldn't dupe challenges just to make a "catalog". The whole point of the first ones (at least I thought) was that we didn't have a simple, basic Hello World or FizzBuzz yet. We do have a fibo already.

Anonymous

Python 2 and Python 3 are different enough beasts to warrant separate categories, imo

Martin Büttner

@Geobits That's right, and I don't want to duplicate the Fibonacci challenge either. I would like to turn it into a useful reference though.

@Mego I think we do that.

Sp3000

I think it's better to keep the catalog description, but keep it consistent so that if someone knows the format of catalogs they can just skip that part

Rainbolt

Am I right in saying there are two categories of answers on the fib challenge? I don't really follow the math behind the discussion earlier

Anonymous

@MartinBüttner Yep, it's just an extra thing for emphasis for the language leaderboards

Martin Büttner

2:21 PM

@Rainbolt there are a few more... but yes the question allows two different approaches

(but then there's also the question whether functions are 0- or 1-based, which the question doesn't specify, and whether snippets are allowed, because by default they aren't, but the accepted answer is a snippet, and and and....)

Rainbolt

Oh, so four approaches (at least)

Martin Büttner

that's the issue... it's a pretty good question, seeing that it's from day 1, but it's a bit underspecified to make for comparable answers

Anonymous

Really there's 3, 0 vs 1 doesn't matter in the stream

Geobits

Well, the spec is pretty loose, but there are 91 answers. I don't see how it could possibly be "fixed" without violating a pretty basic site rule: "Does it invalidate an existing answer? Then stahp."

Rainbolt

What exactly is wrong with multiple approaches being valid? Isn't that true for all questions?

Martin Büttner

2:23 PM

well it's not really approaches... it's actually different solutions

Anonymous

It's not multiple approaches, it's the fact that the question allowed for 2 different solutions

Martin Büttner

you can either print an infinite stream of numbers, or you can implement a single n -> f(n) function

Geobits

Because catalogs (so far at least) are all very rigid for some reason :(

Martin Büttner

I don't even think that's a massive problem for the catalogue though

I've written up a draft for the catalogue which allows pretty much the same things as the current spec

my problem is something like the top voted answer that doesn't even satisfy the current spec, but would still be included in the leaderboard ^^

(I mean, there are these override comments....)

Anonymous

Personally, I don't see a problem with making a new question (or two, if we want both the stream and single-value questions), with enough specification to meet our current standards

Martin Büttner

2:25 PM

@Mego I do see the problem that I'd get twice the rep for answers I already posted on the old challenge ;)

Sp3000

I suppose there's no way for mods to, say, move answers around/create answers tied to a particular user? (would be great for this situation, but I'd doubt they'd have it cos, well, mod abuse)

Anonymous

Currently, our options seem to be overhaul the old challenge (and break the basic site rule Geobits cited), or make a new question

Geobits

Another option: just not have a fibonacci catalog. I know, it sounds strange, but it is an option. You've been trying to figure this out for a few days, but is it worth it?

Martin Büttner

@Sp3000 I think we can merge questions, but then I can just edit the current one.

Anonymous

I think the doubled rep is the lesser of the two evils

Martin Büttner

2:27 PM

@Mego as I said, my current draft doesn't invalidate any answers that aren't already invalid

Rainbolt

What do you guys normally do when a highly upvoted answer violates spec? Do you duplicate the question and post it again?

Sp3000

Well I was thinking of actually having two questions but sorting through the answers and splitting them up as necessary. Some answers might have code for both stream/single value, hence the "create answers tied to a particular user" part

Martin Büttner

the invalid answers would just be a slightly bigger problem, because previously no one cared about them, but when we generate a leaderboard, that is pointless if we include the invalid answers.

Geobits

Rainbolt's a pumpkin :)

Rainbolt

@Geobits ;)

Took long enough to update

Martin Büttner

2:28 PM

@Rainbolt I think these days, a highly-voted answer rarely violates the spec.

Geobits

@MartinBüttner ... unless it's funny, or looks clever in a language that isn't easily testable.

Martin Büttner

well... I mean, as I said, I can exclude individual answers from the leaderboard

Rainbolt

Well, we are officially the most festive chat room. Maid Cafe posted a "happy halloween" image, but we have pumpkins.

4

quartata

So wait we don't have a 99 bottles of beer catalog?

Anonymous

Nope, we've only had popcon 99 bottles

quartata

2:36 PM

oic

Rainbolt

Did you guys know we have a beer stack exchange? beer.stackexchange.com

Anonymous

Which looks way too much like popcorn

Anonymous

Yep

Anonymous

I found that out when I went through my registering spree yesterday

quartata

Do we have a leaderboard stack snippet for catalogs?

Martin Büttner

2:38 PM

Yes.

(It's not much different from the usual leaderboard snippet though)

Rainbolt

JavaScript only challenge idea: Golf our code snippets for catalogs and leaderboards

Anonymous

How meta

Rainbolt

We would have to reverse engineer the spec, because using code and saying "golf this" is hardly a spec.

Martin Büttner

I can give you a spec, but I can't promise the actual snippet satisfies it ;)

Geobits

Better yet, make it [code-trolling] >_>

Zgarb

2:44 PM

@Geobits Halloween at PPCG: code-trolling returns.

Geobits

Scary stuff :)

Anonymous

spooky scary stack snippets

Martin Büttner

Can someone confirm that they understand Chris's rules such that the word-size limit may only be assumed for function submissions, not for sequence/stream submissions?

Zgarb

@MartinBüttner I confirm.

Martin Büttner

(which should continue until you actually run out of memory)

Rainbolt

2:48 PM

The stream obviously can't go on infinitely, so isn't it subject to the same limitation?

Geobits

Anonymous

@MartinBüttner Looks like that to me

Martin Büttner

@Rainbolt The stream can go on until the last two Fibonacci numbers exceed your computer's memory, I guess

that's quite a different limit than "word size"

Anonymous

64 bits vs 8 GB + whatever virtual memory

Anonymous

(for my pc, at least)

Martin Büttner

2:50 PM

Okay, so how about this: I use this spec, which I think isn't any stricter than Chris's, only more explicit: gist.github.com/mbuettner/b77bbf2c02e48b50becd So it shouldn't invalidate any answers that aren't already invalid. I will then go through the answers and exclude any that seem invalid from the leaderboard (leaving a comment).

@ChrisJester-Young When you said "Generates a Fibonacci sequence (either in standard output, or as a stream)" what exactly did you consider a valid "stream"? Only something that can be used by other parts of the code, like a generator function, or also stuff like a program which just writes the Fibonacci numbers to the infinite Brainfuck tape (in which case there is no code which could ever use it, because it doesn't exactly fill the tape lazily).

Anonymous

In particular, your code must not terminate (or produce wrong output) early due to things like fixed-size integers (e.g. 64-bit)

- I don't like this part. C/C++ could generate a stream up to 2^32-1 or 2^64-1, depending on 32- vs 64-bit, but can't go any further. It essentially excludes solutions that don't use bignum libraries (or have support built-in, like Python)

aditsu

Martin Büttner

@Mego But this is exactly, what the current spec asks, right?

In C/C++ you'd be better off implementing a function instead then.

Morgan Thrapp

I should really learn a proper golfing language, I think I'm starting to hit the limits of Python golfing.

Which one is (relatively) easy to learn?

Martin Büttner

CJam

Morgan Thrapp

2:56 PM

Alright, thanks. I'll check it out.

aditsu

^_^

Anonymous

@MartinBüttner I read "infinite" to mean "it should keep generating numbers for as long as possible"

Martin Büttner

(@MorganThrapp And I find it very refreshing to use a different paradigm, i.e. stack-based programming, from most "normal" languages.)

Morgan Thrapp

Yeah, I haven't done any stack based programming, so it should be interesting.

Martin Büttner

@Mego right, "as long as possible" being "until you run out of memory" ;)

Anonymous

2:58 PM

@MartinBüttner I think "hitting the word size limit" counts as a valid stopping condition also

Martin Büttner

the current spec doesn't mention an allowable word-size limit until specifically talking about the function-solutions

Anonymous

You are running out of memory, but it's in one word, rather than your whole machine

aditsu

@Mego it sucks when you run out of memor

(word size=5)

Anonymous

@aditsu Yeah... Wait what were we talking about?

Zgarb

@MartinBüttner "If possible, output should consist solely of the Fibonacci number(s) using any of the integer representations mentioned in the input section." This applies only to functions, right?

Martin Büttner

3:04 PM

well the sentence after that is sort of an amendment for the sequence option, but I could clarify that

Beta Decay

@Rainbolt Woah, pumpkins? I missed them D:

Geobits

It's odd that the original question doesn't have a "simple" answer in Java, despite having a couple. I expected to see something like this:

int f(int n){return n<2?1:f(n-1)+f(n-2);}

Anonymous

Couldn't you shave off a byte by swapping the conditional and getting rid of the space?

Anonymous

Or does java get confused by return2?

Martin Büttner

@Mego normally, spaces can only be omitted if the number comes first (even in other languages)

Geobits

3:06 PM

Yea, it wouldn't like that. You could if it was parenthesized already return(n...), but not worth wrapping it here.

Martin Büttner

because return2 is a valid identifier.

Rainbolt

@BetaDecay You haven't missed anything. Look at the images to the left of the chat.

Anonymous

Oh right

Anonymous

I blame lack of coffee

Anonymous

Disregard

aditsu

3:07 PM

return n<2? n : …

Martin Büttner

^

Beta Decay

@Rainbolt Hmm...

Geobits

@aditsu You could do it that way, but the spec allows for both. I'm using the f(6)=13 version.

aditsu

oh ok, I didn't look at the spec

Anonymous

Or you could do a lambda for even shorter code

Geobits

3:08 PM

So it's 1,1,2,3,..., but zero indexed.

Anonymous

Though Java 8 will probably be its own category

Rainbolt

@BetaDecay What the... why are you missing so many images?

Geobits

@Mego I could. I have a moral objection to the way java golfs do lambdas, so I don't. Call me picky ;)

Martin Büttner

@Geobits as Dennis pointed out yesterday, f(6)=8 is objectively better though and it wouldn't cost you any bytes ;)

aditsu

@BetaDecay try a reload

Beta Decay

3:09 PM

@Rainbolt v

Geobits

@MartinBüttner Tighten up your draft spec then :P

Rainbolt

Oh, right. I forgot my pumpkin was erotic.

Martin Büttner

@Geobits it does recommend f(6)=8 (now)

aditsu

@BetaDecay @_@

Beta Decay

-.-

Anonymous

3:11 PM

@Geobits Actually lambdas wouldn't work for the recursive solution, unless you wanted to make the answer much longer with a helper func

Geobits

@MartinBüttner This is what I get for working from a draft ;)

Martin Büttner

@Geobits I feel like this isn't really going anywhere... maybe we do need a meta discussion about superseding old content...

Geobits

Maybe. I'm not sure how I'd answer, or even what exactly is the right question to ask.

There seem to be multiple, related issues on this one. That's why it seems to me that it might just be easier to skip fibonacci in the "catalog" department.

Rainbolt

Let me write it up. "I think we should tighten the spec on this old question and then repost it. What do you guys think?"

Martin Büttner

@Geobits cool, let's take cat then

Rainbolt

3:14 PM

Instant death of your idea

Geobits

@MartinBüttner IIRC, the cat question was much worse. You could probably get away with just locking that one as historical junk ;)

Martin Büttner

codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/31793/8478 this is such a horrible spec, but with our current duplicate policies it prevents us from posting a good cat challenge.

Rainbolt

Wait, I have a better idea. Ask Calvin's Hobbies to repost it. That guy can put a fresh spin on pretty much anything.

Geobits

And he has experience working with wild cats, I think.

Martin Büttner

@Geobits Now, the Fibonacci challenge is much better than that, but a) I think I like it more because Chris posted it and b) No matter who'd post it, if it was posted today, it would be closed or at least downvoted for being way too vague for a spec.

GamrCorps

3:17 PM

@aditsu I've been meaning to ask: Is there a way to make the CJam interpreter jar into a Java library so I can call something like runCode(String code)?

Geobits

@MartinBüttner I know, it's "unclear" or "too broad" at a minimum. And I get that it's such a canonical thing that a catalog would be cool, but why do we need to formalize it into one? Doing it for the sake of doing it seems pointless.

Rainbolt

Over on Board and Card Games we close older questions as dupes of newer ones all the time. I have an issue with the people that do this intentionally, but I appreciate the times when it happens organically (the guy honestly didn't know one already existed, and just wrote a much better version of the same question).

Martin Büttner

@Geobits I suppose the question is, do we care about generating good/useful content (as pertains to the golfing community) or do we just care about having fun while solving challenges.

Anonymous

@GamrCorps You should just be able to add the jar to your classpath

GamrCorps

@Mego Do you know of a specific method I could use for this purpose?

Anonymous

3:19 PM

@GamrCorps Let me do a little bit of investigation

Geobits

@MartinBüttner IMO it's more: Is that question useless as it is, or does it have some value? I get that it's not up to our current standards, but where does that end?

Martin Büttner

@Rainbolt On a Q&A site it's usually easier to edit a bad question into good shape without invalidating answers though (which is why I get that you have an issue with reposting questions intentionally). Here on the other hand you can't just tighten up an old spec and we still don't close old questions as duplicates.

GamrCorps

@Mego I looked and I couldn't find one, was thinking I might have to convert the code to a block an run it that way. But if you find one that would be great!

Martin Büttner

@Geobits You mean, if we did redo it now, we'd redo it again in 4 years?

aditsu

@GamrCorps you can already use the jar file as a library

Geobits

3:20 PM

@MartinBüttner No, more like how many of our old challenges are now up for grabs as catalogs if we do this one?

GamrCorps

@aditsu is there a runCode(String)-like method?

Martin Büttner

@Geobits Oh probably a lot of them, but if we improve the general content quality of the site in the process I don't see anything wrong with it.

aditsu

@GamrCorps the simplest is CJam.run(code, input) (static method, returns String with output)

Martin Büttner

Of course the question isn't "useless" as it stands, but it also doesn't serve as a good reference.

GamrCorps

@aditsu I'll try that, thanks!

Rainbolt

3:22 PM

Chat is loading extremely slowly for me

Optimizer

I am thinking of switching to this profile pic for Halloween :

GamrCorps

@aditsu @Mego thanks guys! I got it working!

Geobits

@MartinBüttner I'm torn. Like I said, the original idea about catalogs (which I agreed with) was that 1) they would be good references, and 2) these challenges don't already exist here for some reason. Or at least that's the impression I got. I'm on the fence about going through all our old questions and remaking them.

Anonymous

@GamrCorps Yay!

Anonymous

@Optimizer needs more pumpkin

Optimizer

3:25 PM

@Mego I am going for the spooky part of the theme

Martin Büttner

@Geobits 2) wasn't really a requirement I had in mind... it just happened to be the case for HW (which admittedly helped with the question being so well accepted).

GamrCorps

@Optimizer maybe a darker background as well

Geobits

@Optimizer That's not spooky though. It's almost cute.

Optimizer

@Geobits Its spooky because I am not just wearing Martin's coat.

Geobits

Oh, I thought it was Martin wearing your skin.

aditsu

3:27 PM

Anonymous

@aditsu that's terrifying... I love it

Optimizer

@Geobits either way, its murder

Geobits

Still doesn't look spooky to me :P

@MartinBüttner Yea, it definitely helped ;)

Optimizer

well, yours is also not spooky

aditsu

that's an actual halloween costume

Geobits

3:28 PM

I didn't say I was going for spooky that I recall. You did:

3 mins ago, by Optimizer

@Mego I am going for the spooky part of the theme

I'm just going for a generic Halloween feel :)

Martin Büttner

@Geobits Well, I've got to head out... will need to think about this some more... (and wait for Chris to get back to me to clarify his intention of the spec anyway)

Beta Decay

Good bye

BTW who's Chris?

Geobits

@BetaDecay You must be new :P

2

Beta Decay

The only Chris I can think of is myself...

Rainbolt

Chris Jester-Young ♦, Raleigh, NC

2.5k 2 16 30

code-golf fibonacci math number obfuscation restricted-source sequence

Beta Decay

3:33 PM

Ohhh CJY

haven't seen him for a while

Rainbolt

Every time someone says that I hear 96 Quite Bitter Beings in my head

(Which, coincidentally, I first heard while playing Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2 or 3)

New Main Posts

-1

Q: Visual Basic 2010 express

i have to create a login whit vb.net. I want edit and create a file .txt to save my user name and password. Moreover i need to create a button to create randomly a password of 8 characters from assci table. How i do that?? Thank you?

code-golf

0

Q: Energy levels of electrons

Energy levels of electrons Electrons are ordered into "shells". However, sometimes electrons get excited, for example by heat, and leave their shell to go to another! These electrons will go back at some point, but they cannot go back to their original shell without emitting energy in the form o...

code-golf

Rainbolt

@Martin Is "centre"a UK spelling of "center"?

Geobits

Yep

Beta Decay

It's the only spelling of centre

Geobits

3:37 PM

Also a "fancy" way of spelling it in the US if someone wants to feel better than others :P

@BetaDecay -15 That is objectively untrue.

Beta Decay

@Geobits Sulphur

FTW

quartata

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Brew Golf me some beer Following up on the success of our recent "catalog" challenges (Hello World, FizzBuzz, primes) here's a 99 bottles of beer catalog (since apparently the other one is popularity-contest but not a regular code-golf one. So... here goes. Challenge Your challenge is to print...

Let's see how long it takes for the bot to post it

Beta Decay

Damn, the contrast is too low on my avatar... How's it now?

Geobits

I'd bring the orange down to a more "burnt" shade to bump the contrast.

The beta is hard to make out.

^

3:41 PM

Hmm

Probably better, but need to see it much smaller to be sure ;)

quartata

Maybe more like a gradient between that color and the previous orange

Rainbolt

I would go with black instead

quartata

That might be nicer

@Rainbolt Ooh that might be nice too

Geobits

3:42 PM

@Rainbolt I agree that black would be better. I thought he wanted to stay orange, but I guess not :)

Beta Decay

Rainbolt

Gothic vampire film

(First thing that floated through my head)

Geobits

The other issue is that the blood is so... minor. At any low scale it doesn't register as blood at all (just a longer tail or odd font). The color scheme works, but overall it doesn't scream "Halloween" to me.

Looks fine big.

Beta Decay

Maybe that'll be better with the contrast changed

Nah, the blood's hard to make out on my main profile with the lighter orange

Gtg

New Sandboxed Posts

1

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Brew Golf me some beer Following up on the success of our recent "catalog" challenges (Hello World, FizzBuzz, primes) here's a 99 bottles of beer catalog (since apparently the other one is popularity-contest but not a regular code-golf one. So... here goes. Challenge Your challenge is to print...

quartata

3:48 PM

Alright, so does this have any glaring issues?