@FaheemMitha You don't have to be Superman to describe how it feels to be Superman

It's super, thanks for asking

Needs more hippie. "It's super, man!"

I was aiming a the gay character from Southpark. what's his name...

@MattE.Эллен All things considered I couldn't be better, I must say.

:D

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 True, but I expected a Superman POV.

Meaning, the "actual" Superman.

@MattE.Эллен ah, I don't watch South Park

@FaheemMitha There's still time for you to write one!

Fix all our mistakes!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 heh.

Will you still call me 'Superman'?

Only while you live three doors down

If you move any farther away you won't be able to hear me

@KitZ.Fox Line from a song?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Superman has super-hearing.

@FaheemMitha yes, by Three Doors Down.

I've heard he's also super-sensitive, but that could be a vile lie propagated by Lex Luthor.

@FaheemMitha They're really big doors, so > 3 doors is too far even for Supes

Weird video.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Maybe lead doors. Though those are probably in contravention of all sorts of building codes.

But that is the song I heard in my head.

@KitZ.Fox I see. Thanks.

Yes, I'm familiar with that song. Though as usual, I can't follow the lyrics.

That video is notably lacking anyone who looks even remotely like Superman.

If I go crazy, will you still call me Superman?

I... I don't call you "Superman" now

If I'm alive and well, will you be there, holding my hand?

@KitZ.Fox at least the subject matter in the video is related to the lyrics

Yes

I'll keep you by my side with my superhuman might

Kryptonite

@MattE.Эллен Maybe you should.

hey. it's chat day!

we seem to have a quorum already

I'll be in and out of the chatroom but I should be able to do any writing exercises.

Chat away

I gotta finish this thing. brb

omg chat time!

panicks

new here

hello!

Shiny and New here.

haha

hello!

Are you interested in the writing exercise?

yea

we normally do a 10 minute flash-fiction write on a random topic.

dont know how to go abt it

yea

ok

But it's all very informal so we can do other things too.

Depends what the exercise is.

i might just observe today

btw, where do you right

write!

Normally people post the exercise on a blog or in a shared Google doc

Usually we post what we write on a writing blog, or google doc, or pastebin, so we don't glog up chat.

i m tired as well

You can edit your chat messages by pressing the up arrow, or by using the menu (on mobile chat)

ah ok

dont have anything written

We haven't started yet.

ok

If you can put words together to make sentences, you can write with us! We're not judgmental unless you ask for criticism.

i see something like that in thread above

:)

The goal is to have fun first, to practice writing second.

ah

@NapoleonWilson do you have a specific type of exercise in mind, or topic, or preference regarding either?

actually

i was looking up usage of passive voice in speech

and was wondering if good writers prefer using it

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Whoa, I'm all listening to the organizers.

especially in dialogues

Hm, in dialogue? Wouldn't the dialogue vary depending on who's speaking? And so some people would use the passive and others wouldn't, depending on the situation.

yes yes

Maybe we could do an exercise around that.

I don't know how to write dialogue in passive voice though.

i.e. a good writer would write passive dialogue if that's how their character would talk.

perhaps yea

Or did you mean something like: "Go to your room," was said by Timmy's mother.

umm..more like "Tim was told to go to his room"

let me post one of the links i was reading

ah. So not exactly dialogue, but more like a summary of the dialogue. Is there a technical term for that?

There is some kind of word for that.

Non-speaking dialogue or something.

It's not that, but seems like there is a word for it.

englishclub.com/grammar/verbs-voice.htm

I think passive voice is generally discouraged.

took time finding it...i started an article on 'the guardian'

I wonder if it would give the impression that a person was pompous in their speech. Guess there is one way to find out.

I'm not sure if that link properly explains the passive voice. It's one of the most frequently misunderstood things in grammar. Even Strunk and White get it wrong.

there are many links if you search for 'passive voice'

So you explain it, @Mr.Shiny

but i now remember that i had started with this link

theguardian.com/media/mind-your-language/2015/jul/03/…

Language Log has an essay on what it is

it is about George Orwell's famous essay 'Politics and the English Language' and how the Human Resources Departments use/misuse the language

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 reading it

So you're going to do a 10 minute exercise thingy? You could do it about Orwell.

okay...i just saw my typos above...mistakes in my clauses

@FaheemMitha i'd love to

just so tired

@C2R yeah so that article gives some examples of passives that aren't passive.

> Company policy is unable to support that. <- Not passive

@KitZ.Fox No, I'll call you Bizarro.

@FaheemMitha Isn't that a place?

@KitZ.Fox Possibly.

That is unsupported by company policy. <-- that's passive, right?

@KitZ.Fox Yes, I think so.

yea, i think so

look at this paragraph

Orwell would have despised the passive constructions that are the HR department’s default setting. Want some flexibility in your contract? HR says company policy is unable to support that. Forgotten to accede to some arbitrary and impractical office rule? HR says we are minded to ask everyone to remember that it is essential to comply by rule X. Try to question whether an ill-judged commitment could be reversed? HR apologises meekly that the decision has been made

> Not giving subjects to any of these responses is a deliberate ploy. Subjects give ownership. They imbue accountability. Not giving sentences subjects means that HR is passing the buck, but to no one in particular. And with no subject, no one can be blamed, or protested against.

^^ Total misunderstanding of passive voice.

Passive voice doesn't mean "vague about agency"

"The city was bombed" <- passive, vague about agency.

"The city was bombed by the Germans" <- passive, specific about who did what

hmmm

"Germans bombed the city" <- active, specific about who did what

"Someone bombed the city" <- active, vague about agency

"The city was bombed on gin following the football win."

Most people who complain about passives are really complaining about vagueness.

yea

But they don't understand what passive voice is, so they conflate the ideas together, like that article does.

Hmm, you could write a little piece about Winston Smith in one of those support groups.

"Hi, my name is Winston, and I hate Big Brother."

"Hi Winston".

Hmm, maybe not...

"I am named Winston, and Big Brother is hated by me."

grammarist.com/grammar/active-voice-passive-voice

I don't know how to make "I am Winston" into a passive construction.

A session in Room 101 with a celebrity of your choice.

Hmm, maybe not either.

this article lists reasons other than vagueness and evading responsibility in speech

@KitZ.Fox Is that what the writing exercise is about?

I hope not.

@C2R That is a much better explanation of the passive voice, IMHO

If I was Madonna, what would the worst thing in the world be?

Being laughed at by the audience, possibly...

@C2R It lists them as common considerations, and then dismisses them.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 yea, it doesn't explain too well

Here's another suggestion. I'm the Time Traveller, visiting either the far future, or the distant past.

Third person, or First person.

@C2R I think it's good. It says 1: it's wordy, 2: passive makes it easier to hide agency, 3: some people might find it harder to read. Then it says "1 and 2 are valid, 3 is probably rubbish", then it says "go ahead and use the passive".

Dinosaurs, Asteroids, Global extinction, nuclear holocaust, fun stuff like that.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 yea...it also says that authors who don't support its use, use it often

@C2R which is true. Orwell and Strunk and White are all guilty of that.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Strunk and White?

Or, here is another one. Describe Skynet coming to life...

Though that one is a bit hackneyed.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 ah ok

Or a generic one. Describe a skydiver jumping from a plane.

@C2R The authors of a very popular style guide/grammar reference in the US. It's very popular but most of it is useless or literally wrong. Esp its section on the Passive Voice.

@FaheemMitha That's a bit like what we did last week.

@FaheemMitha Pretty similar to the last one, though.

Or a historical one. I'm in Pompeii. It's AD 79. Vesuvius has just erupted.

yea, read about it

their book/s

Ok, how about - imagine you are meeting with the Dictator of the World. You're terrified.

havent read them but yes, passive voice seems tricky

Or a biological one - I'm a butterfly emerging from a chrysalis.

But I really have no idea what sorts of topics you guys normally do.

@FaheemMitha Those are all good

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 ok

I kinda like the pompeii one. Anyone else have a preference, or a suggestion?

@FaheemMitha @Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 sounds interesting

okay that has my vote but I need to get some work done, I'll be back in an hour to do the exercise.

August 24th AD 79, to be precise.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 do the exercise and post it here and we can give feedback whenever?

@FaheemMitha it s interesting how real/historical incidents can be given a creative twist

my first imagination was of people running about

Optional possible first person viewpoint - that of the Roman, Pliny the Younger, who observed the thing from a distance.

@C2R Actually, if you were actually there, it would have been a very short piece indeed.

Major volcanic eruptions kill almost instantly. That sort of scene in a historical novel or whatever would really need to be observed at a distance.

yea, exactly

i was like people run about and die!

I was at the historical site once and the only thing I remember is that like every 2nd house was a former brothel.

Hmm, apparently the date of the eruption is disputed. Interesting.

@NapoleonWilson How could they tell?

Don't know, but that's what they told us. Most of the ruins were quite well-walkable afterall, if I remember correctly.

imagination in context

i have a general question

can we post our writings any time on here and also give feedback any time we want?

Yes, generally

ok

but for the writing exercise we usually like to congregate. Not everyone is good at doing the exercise after hours.

There are no rules though... it's just chat. We do what we like to help people write better.

So is Pompeii the topic?

hmm

Remember you don't have to take the topic literally or at face value.

It's a writing prompt.

sounds interesting to me

yea...that s what i was going to say

Okay, let's make an executive decision then.

i know

Go nuts, whenever you're ready.

My code is compiled so I'll be back to do it later.

another general question (sorry)

10 minute flash fiction is writing what you can imagine in 10 minutes?

Yeah normally we just write for 10 minutes. That usually leaves no time for editing and sometimes you can't even finish the story.

I routinely break the time limit rule in order to finish the story.

But others are stricter with themselves.

ok

a new topic and a time limit is a forced combination...is that how writers train?

i get that if something strikes our mind, we can get in the flow

@C2R I think they just train by writing. There isn't really any substitute.

I wanted to mention that our topics are usually a word or short phrase.

@KitZ.Fox Oh. Example, please.

@FaheemMitha of course

Like "tuna"? Or "locomotive"?

@FaheemMitha if you dont mind, how do ideas just bounce off of you?

For instance. It's less structured.

@FaheemMitha i imagine you read a lot...

@C2R Sorry, I didn't follow the question.

@KitZ.Fox Interesting. What is luxury bathing?

Aww, @Napoleon.

@FaheemMitha I'm not sure.

This was my interpretation.

@KitZ.Fox What?

You deleted your haiku.

@FaheemMitha i was wondering how you re so quick with stimulating ideas

@KitZ.Fox that was haiku?

@KitZ.Fox Because I realized that I missed a word and we're not really supposed to edit those things after the exercise is over, so I rather decided to retract, since I wasn't too satisfied with it in the first place.

Gah.

@KitZ.Fox And it wasn't happy! ;-P

@NapoleonWilson it was interesting

How will you learn if you always erase your mistakes?

@C2R Ah. It's not that hard, really.

@NapoleonWilson Better?

Indeed.

thunderbumper

@KitZ.Fox Was it a Haiku? It just looked like blank verse to me.

I thought it was one. Napoleon writes haiku.

@FaheemMitha That's what haiku are, though.

@KitZ.Fox If you really wrote that in 10 minutes, that's very impressive.

Don't get distracted by this 5-7-5 rule, that's just a myth.

@FaheemMitha I've been doing it a long time.

@NapoleonWilson Oh. But blank verse in a very specific format, or so I've heard.

@KitZ.Fox Do you write professionally?

Yes.

@KitZ.Fox ok

I write documentation.

I also write fiction for fun.

@FaheemMitha Oh sorry, I thought with "blank verse" you just meant, well, blank verse. Didn't know that.

I started writing regularly three or so years ago.

@KitZ.Fox Have you had anything published?

I've heard it is very hard these days. Many voices. And a diminishing audience.

Though I often read the work of quite successful published writers and think that it isn't very good.

Actually, replace often with sometimes, above.

@FaheemMitha Some flash fiction on @NeilFein's Magnificent Nose.

I had some things published in the school magazine when I was a kid.

I don't have a lot of pub credits.

Ok.

Well, writing is hard. Though there are still a lot of books out there. Sometimes I wonder who reads them.

I'm working on polishing a novel, but I'm not confident that I will be able to.

Considering that most people prefer the audio-visual options for their entertainment.

Neil is editing it.

@KitZ.Fox I've thought it would be better to start with small pieces. Maybe journalism.

I know lots of people who read books. All intelligent people.

@FaheemMitha Depends on what you feel successful at. I do not enjoy journalism.

I mean, I don't enjoy writing it.

H G Wells originally started with small pieces of descriptive journalism. "A Day at the Seaside". That sort of thing.

@KitZ.Fox Well, there's journalism and there is journalism. Orwell wrote some quite interesting journalism. Though most of the stuff that is published nowadays is rubbish.

I started with flash fiction with the intent of working my way up to longer lengths, but it seems like that doesn't work like I expect.

@KitZ.Fox What is flash fiction?

500 words or fewer. Depends on who you ask/where you are submitting.

@KitZ.Fox I think as with code, at longer lengths design and structure are increasingly important.

Some places as many as 1000 words, others small as 60 words.

@KitZ.Fox Yes, that's short.

@FaheemMitha The story is different.

@KitZ.Fox hmm?

The way the story works, the idea you express, is different depending on the length.

It doesn't change the way I expected, so it's not as easy to move up from flash to short fiction as I thought it would be.

@KitZ.Fox Maybe.

The pacing and development happen differently. It takes practice.

@KitZ.Fox Sure, writing takes practice.

@FaheemMitha i wanted to know how you think of things

i analyse people, things and events i interact with on a regular basis

they re also within my area of interest

which are social and political issues

@C2R Oh, just random stuff pops into my head.

I could do it all day.

that s what surprises me

haha

that just made me happy btw

@NapoleonWilson I think I remember having a chat with you, possibly on another channel. Was it about HIMYM, by any chance?

@FaheemMitha Maybe.

@NapoleonWilson Ok. Well, sounds like you don't remember.

Whoever it was thought the finale was fine. I didn't.

@FaheemMitha I remember seeing your name, and I certainly like HIMYM. So it's quite possible.

@NapoleonWilson ok

@FaheemMitha Found it.

@NapoleonWilson fast work.

@NapoleonWilson I still think your avatar looks like Christopher McDonald.

But apparently one Darwin Joston instead.

Hmm, March of this year. Somehow I thought it was earlier.

Pompeii

Not as good as I intended but I ran out of time.

oh damn! I knew I forgot something.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Interesting take.

Pompeii ugh it's awful.

@KitZ.Fox That's pretty good.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 rofl

Though actual Roman god names would be a better fit.

@KitZ.Fox I like it

I felt all constipated writing it. In a writing sense, not a intestinal sense.

E.g. Vulcan instead of Forger?

What is Love a reference to?

Venus

Yeah, I didn't want to use the Roman god names. I wanted it to come across as how they would have thought of them.

Because "Neptune" sounds like something mysterious and exotic, but it just means "Ocean".

Hello, my friend @BESW.

Ohai. What's new?

not much. you?

Butter over too much sleepless bread.

It was my father's birthday yesterday. It made me think that I would like to ask after yours.

How are you in that regard?

Last time we talked, things were difficult.

Not so great. I'm taking care of him on my own for five weeks while my mom's off island, and he's been sick.

Wow. Five weeks is a long time.

What kind of sick?

On the plus side, changed med doses are making him less belligerent.

That helps a great deal.

Some kind of stomach bug, I think. The home-visit doctors are taking their own sweet time responding to my calls.

You probably have to stay right with him, yes? For safety?

@BESW Yikes. You're monitoring to make sure he doesn't get dehydrated?

Yeah, he can't be left alone.

And yes, I'm doing my best to keep him hydrated.

Is he bedbound?

No, though he often needs help getting up and down.

Do you have home health aides there?

To help with hygiene and stuff?

Those were a godsend with Great-Gramma D.

We've got some folks coming in from the Catholic Social Services and the VA, and we're supplementing it with caregivers hired from our own pocket.

That helps.

Mostly it's just enough that I can stay semi-viable professionally.

I am concerned that you are primary caregiver so long. I worry about you getting respite. I know you don't have a lot of social support, or I think I remember that was the case.

Yeah, it's hard. I've got some friends trying to visit more often, but they're quite busy too.

It's a lot of emotional weight to process. You need people to help with that.

Not that you need my advice. I'm just giving it away.

I think folks who haven't done it, they don't really understand how hard it is.