Coding Projects and Duga Heaven :)

3:14 PM

@rolfl perhaps we should name the rooms "The 3rd Monitor", "The 4th Monitor", etc...?

Nahhh. not unless it's what you want...

The diversity is good.... positive.

for the record, I think the VBA'ers are more active than we are though

VBA Rubberducking

This chat has moved to Discord: discord.gg/MYX9RECenJ

Gud to hear ;)

yeah... chat.stackexchange.com/…

Anway, no problems, no worries, back to lurking

@rolfl I wonder how on earth those rooms get sorted... no matter what I sort by it seems to sort quite arbitrarily

3:19 PM

Hmmm... I would agree... but I do like SirPython's mansion.

Surprisingly (or perhaps not) @Duga has what looks like the most active chat room on CR...

I think the monitor is more active

the second, that is.

This is nice: chat.stackexchange.com/…

2nd is 2nd.

2nd is 3rd.

stack is crack.

2

4:02 PM

In all seriousness though, maybe I'll pop in there on occasion, might be a good place to get ideas/tips from

4:23 PM

[Cardshifter/Cardshifter] Phrancis commented on issue #218: Pre-0.6 release clean-up

> @Zomis I would like to know your opinion on this, mostly on points 1 and 5 as to what we should do.

[Cardshifter/Cardshifter] Zomis commented on issue #218: Pre-0.6 release clean-up

> There is no point 5 :)

1. Organizing JS code files - absolutely. Some of them should really be placed in a specific sub-folder.
4. Removing old/unused game types: Removing them from the game so that they can't be played, sure! Removing them from the code? Not yet. Although I would like to see two different game types in version 0.6 to show the moddability aspect, even if it in this case might just making a little change to the rules and cards (as the clients doesn't yet support much else)

[Cardshifter/Cardshifter] Phrancis commented on issue #218: Pre-0.6 release clean-up

> I meant to reword Point 3, but accidentally deleted instead. So yeah, now there is a point 5 :)

[Cardshifter/Cardshifter] Zomis commented on issue #218: Pre-0.6 release clean-up

> Posting JS code for review: There is a part of that code that I am definitely not proud of, and that I feel contains some code duplication, so possibly yes.

[Cardshifter/Cardshifter] Phrancis commented on issue #218: Pre-0.6 release clean-up

> On 1. Would moving the JS files around require changes to the code much or at all? Is it something I could do fairly easily or would it require your involvement?

On 3. OK, since it's your code I'll let you do that (and get the rep ;)

On 5. I agree, once I finish the documentation and we get files better organized I want to create a mod with different cards and a bit different game style, something a bit more effects-based rather than scrap/upgrade based.

@Duga On 5. that will also help us really put the JSON effects to test as well :)

[Cardshifter/Cardshifter] Zomis commented on issue #218: Pre-0.6 release clean-up

> 1. as long as you make sure that it works, I don't need to do it. It will probably involve some small changes of the paths in calls to load(...)

4:39 PM

@Simon do you think you could help me solve the issues that made it where I couldn't compile the game on my machine last week? I think it all had to do with Maven, it may just be missing from my Eclipse/STS since it is designed mostly for web dev

Not sure how I would go about finding out whether Maven is there or not

@Phrancis sure thing. just let me know the error messages

I think you have maven, otherwise you would have gotten other errors from what I can rememeber

@rolfl lol

So @SimonAndréForsberg I thought again... and

The language in which you write doesn't matter that much

Frameworks are usually more important

And above all the whole development environment is the most important

@skiwi I partially agree with you. However, as I often say, it depends ;)

Java really isn't that bad at all

No, it is not.

4:49 PM

May 5 at 21:18, by Phrancis

@skiwi say that the next time I'm writing Brainfuck!

@SimonAndréForsberg I must add the clause that there are still exceptions

The gem I found today is that some library in npm (node.js package manager) has a dependency on a library that requires "python" to be on the path, more specifically, it must link to a recent Python 2 version, on Linux it's all fine, on Windows it then also wants you to have installed Visual Studio 2012 or 2013 or something like that, and then it might compile

@Phrancis try the Maven->Update Project as is suggested. (select a project, press Alt + F5, or right click and choose Maven -> Update Project) also show me the full errors of the 'non existing library' things.

@skiwi why the heck does it want you to install Visual Studio?

@SimonAndréForsberg That's... a good question

Only on Windows, so I figure it uses some kind of build tool

And deploying a Django application to production running on Python 3 is difficult

The only progress so far is that if we install some Python 3 specific things, then Apache2 crashes with a segfault

For the website I want to make I'm thinking of going back to Java for the REST API

But I absolutely don't want to write the queries myself, but Hibernate seems like a complicated beast

@SimonAndréForsberg Do you mind to pin that message momentarily until I can try it tonight?

4:59 PM

And at same time wondering if it would be worth it to use Groovy instead of Java, but that may be a step too far

@skiwi there is a web framework called 'Grails', which might be something you would like

@skiwi knowing Hibernate is a useful skill though (right, @Marc-Andre?). It is used in many enterprise applications.

@SimonAndréForsberg hell yeah it;s useful!

What I do like about Django is that model updates require you to make migrations, and when you execute those migrations only then the database structure gets updated; you can also store those migrations on git

@SimonAndréForsberg Okay.. for the web part I'm only interested in REST API or websockets though, the frontend will most likely be a separate React JSX app

5:30 PM

@SimonAndréForsberg Isn't Rails for Ruby?

or is a Grails a port?

@skiwi Grails was originally called 'Groovy on Rails' but had a name change by request from the author of Ruby on Rails. I don't think it is a direct port, but the concept is similar.

Hmm okay

have you fiddled around with it ever?

Spring + Hibernate seems pretty heavyweight for a simple REST API, but Django is too immature in my eyes

@skiwi nope, never. I have used Groovy in total for about 16 hours, how far do you think I have come?

@SimonAndréForsberg You can do a lot in 16 hours

true, but I did a Battleship game, not a website.

(those 16 hours are excluding the ones I have spent configuring Gradle of course, which uses a Groovy DSL for its configuration files)

5:35 PM

Did you need to configure a lot?

I don't think so. I read that it uses convention over configuration

so it seems to be significantly easier than Spring.

@Phrancis @bazola @skiwi the more I read about Groovy the more I feel that we really should be looking into Groovy for Cardshifter. Not as a replacement to the JS modding, but as an alternative.

Okay

I haven't coded at all this week yet :|

Unless you can consider writing a single unit test and rewriting it 1000 times coding

> Integrated ORM / NoSQL support, a powerful view technology, plugins, and Spring-powered dependency injection. All you need to build modern web applications.

Looks interesting

@rolfl FYI: groovy-lang.org/dsls.html#_antbuilder

@skiwi If I were to build a webpage today, I'd definitely look into Grails.

I'm trying where to find the documentation/tutorial to smoke

Unfortunately(?) I don't need to create a webpage today.

5:42 PM

@SimonAndréForsberg Battleships on the web! ;)

I may have gotten a bit too excited :(

Does Grails attempt to offer a full-stack framework?

I have no clue

Then treat that as a rhetorical question :)

I barely know what full-stack means.

full stack is backend (REST API/database/etc.) and frontend (views)

it supports views I think, yes. but not any client-side scripting.

@skiwi I'd probably use LibGDX for that still, as Groovy doesn't come with any web-browser client-side support.

5:45 PM

I should probably also figure out if it's better to host your frontend into the backend or have them run separately

If that makes any sense

for client-side though, if you're sick of JS, you might want to consider Dart, or TypeScript. (yes, I've been to Wikipedia today)

@skiwi none whatsoever.

@SimonAndréForsberg Take a full-stack framework, then you can use a REST API for data interaction, and then you can have a single "index.html" template, in which you put your frontend framework (React.js or Angular.js or whatever)

When you want to deploy your application/website, then you always deploy your frontend and backend simultaneously

Another way is to completely split the front- and backend, they can even run on different servers

Then you'll need to deploy them one by one, but you can also maintain them separately

sounds much simpler to just run them on the same server. I see not much reason for why separating it would be better.

Running them on the same server often leads to trouble

KISS - Keep It Simple Skiwi

@skiwi not in my experience.

5:50 PM

All full-stack frameworks come with their own templating languages, they all want to do it in their own way

You're in practice never going to touch that templating language, because you are using your own view framework

I'd expect the frameworks to allow you to use the templating language of your preference

That's unfortunately not the case

See it like this: In order to run a frontend, you don't need a backend at all

@skiwi Grails --> Groovy + rails (ruby on rails) so I do not even need to look to say yes they probably do offer a full-stack

@Marc-Andre I think it may not be an issue at all

It most likely all depends on whether I want to combine frontend and backend in a single application, or not

> An expressive view technology called Groovy Server Pages (GSP)

This is something I want to avoid at all costs

All those full-stack view technologies are nice and all, but never integrate with big frontend frameworks like react.js or angular.js

why wouldn't they?

6:02 PM

Because they have their own definition of the best way to do things

Exactly what I was about to say ! Why would they ? You don't need to. You're framework serve js ? great it's done

For example, say you want to make a single-page-application, one that doesn't fully reload a page

That's already hard to achieve using a view technology

@SimonAndréForsberg Are you thinking to replace some of the Java backend with Groovy as well, or just the modding part?

@Phrancis I don't think anyone feels like rewriting the whole backend ;)

@skiwi is Angular client-based or server-based?

6:04 PM

@SimonAndréForsberg Both ReactJS and Angular are client-based

@skiwi then I absolutely see no reason why it wouldn't work together with GSP. GSP is entirely server-based.

Except that GSP gets rendered to the client

Except that a client-based view is just JS. I'm sure GRoovy can send a GSP page that include the JS ....

If you directly combine them, then you are rendering a client-side view inside a server-side view

@Phrancis I did consider it briefly, but I don't think that's necessary.

6:05 PM

@Marc-Andre With React you're most likely using JSX, which is a bit more difficult

also opens up the possibility to use ES6 rather than ES5 features

Important to note, there is no such thing as easily building your entire application

@skiwi How would you send a client-side view if not by a server... does it really matter if it's serve by a gsp page containing only the client-side code ?

@SimonAndréForsberg OK. My primary concern though is the same as I had for JSX...

Apr 30 at 18:32, by sᴉɔuɐɹɥԀ

Here's my simple argument: everyone knows some JavaScript. Most people don't even know what JSX is, let alone how to write and compile it...

To build the client-side you for example need to call npm run build but to run the Gradle application you need some other command

And ? I'm sure someone made a plug-in or anything

@Marc-Andre The view is all coded in the client with React/Angular

In fact, if you would make an application that doesn't need dynamic data, then you wouldn't need a server in a traditional sense at all

(Of course you'd still need to host your files somewhere)

6:09 PM

If you don't have dynamic data, doing a single-page application for static data is a bad idea

One thing with Django that comes to mind is that it has it's own notation of "static files", it treats those differently than regular files

That's already troublesome

@Marc-Andre How so? It completely eliminates loading times then

@skiwi It's static... just render some html and cache the page voila ... no loading times..

Still has a round-trip to something (probably not the server as it's cached somewhere in between, but okay may not be as bad as it seems

A client-side single-page application, you still need to donwload the code.

to run the application client-side

But because frontend and backend are already split at this point, I'm wondering if it makes sense to put them together in a single application

@Marc-Andre True, but that is also cached after one go

6:12 PM

Yep so you'll make some JS code to show static data... what benefit would you have ?

Not claiming there's benefit in this case, just that you don't need a full backend server running for something like that

You still need a server to serve the client. And I didn't say that you need a full back-end server

@skiwi, look into Simon's Battleship repository to check out the Groovy code! And @Simon, fix that damn websocket bug!

@Duga I already looked into it!

@Duga I already fixed it!

@Phrancis I think Groovy would be even simpler than JS. Most of the syntax is quite similar to JS, and with some Groovy features, it can be made even simpler.

6:21 PM

Found an interesting read at least: fabricematrat.github.io/grails-rave

@SimonAndréForsberg OK. Would Groovy still support JSON for cards and such, or would we need to come up with something else?

@Phrancis oooooooooooooh yes! (= it supports it)

Having both frontend and backend completely separate does lead to strange development? or not

As you ideally work in 2 IDEs then

Not at all! In big teams/comapny those will be two separate people person that will works on front-end and back end

that ^^

6:25 PM

True, but how does development then work? Mostly in a single person scenario

I need to be switching IDEs half of the time?

Not that it woudl be annoying, but just unusual

Why would you need two IDE ? Most IDE I know can do both

I already do Switch IDE all the time. I'm using Eclipse for Groovy (Battleship Client) and IntelliJ for Java (Battleship Server)

@skiwi I hate it when I see something that looks totally awesome and I would like to use that technology, but I have nothing to use it for.

A completely separated frontend and backend lives in different projects

@SimonAndréForsberg Eclipse for Groovy?

What about Java 8 + Groovy Closures? You have experience with that @simon?

@skiwi works like a charm

When do you use a specific type like Function and when a Closure?

Because as I see it, you can call a Closure with any number of arguments?

6:37 PM

In Java code, I use the Java interfaces, in Groovy code I can pass any closure to a functional interface and it tries to transform it, if possible. (or I get an error)

ok

It seems like Grails' data model is a layer on top of Hibernate

Grails looks really interesting so far

I'm smoking quite a lot documentation right now

7:50 PM

@skiwi Better smoking documentation that than smoking something else ;)

8:01 PM

@Phrancis Yeah... I know of some things you could smoke over here though

8:29 PM

@SimonAndréForsberg grails.org/single-page-documentation.html > Chapter 6 this looks really interesting

I bet it does

The power of Hibernate with the conciseness of Groovy, doesn't sound too bad?

Definitely not.

What could possibly go wrong?

aha ah

Not sure if sarcastic or not

8:46 PM

I do think Hibernate and Groovy and Grails is a good option, but I'm pretty sure that you'll have some obstacles on the way :)

Sure, what would programming be without obstacles?

exactly

def query = Person.where {
     age in 18..65
}

That looks really cool

Groovy's awesome!

No, wait...

Groovy's Groovy!

For every little thing I learn about the language, I like it more and more. The last time this happened to me was with Java...

I really hope I can save some free time for this

@SimonAndréForsberg Normally it's the other way around

From what I've read at least Django supports a similar way, so I can live with it for this project

@SimonAndréForsberg But going into Java you came straight from Delphi?

8:55 PM

@skiwi oh no, I learned HTML, PHP, JavaScript, and ActionScript 3.0 before coming to Java.

So, knowing that I passed PHP and JS on the way, you can imagine how happy I was to discover Java...

@SimonAndréForsberg I can surely imagine!

TTGTB

Good night!

But before that...

Wanted to share a picture of our branches in our project

Hmm, I might have crashes GitLab by opening an issue

Or not crashed, it was loading very slowly

We have this awesome thing in our application right now though where you can create an account with a password of as many characters as you want, but when logging in it needs to be 8 characters minimum, and no visual feedback at all

9:12 PM

[Cardshifter/Cardshifter] Phrancis added label mod to issue #223: New mod: "Mythos"

[Cardshifter/Cardshifter] Phrancis added label question to issue #223: New mod: "Mythos"

[Cardshifter/Cardshifter] Phrancis added label gameplay to issue #223: New mod: "Mythos"

[Cardshifter/Cardshifter] Phrancis assigned Phrancis to issue #223: New mod: "Mythos"

@SimonAndréForsberg @bazola @Marc-Andre @skiwi ^^

[Cardshifter/Cardshifter] Phrancis opened issue #223: New mod: "Mythos"

> @MGS1GreyFox and I were discussing what other mod we could do besides Cyborg Chronicles. I'm opening this for others to discuss and suggest ideas. Here are some early thoughts we had:

- The theme will feature characters from various mythologies as the cards; this will make it easy to come up with names, descriptions and images.
- Stats and effects of cards will be inspired from mythological characters' stories
- The game will (eventually) bring a new game concept of hero cards (will open

[Cardshifter/Cardshifter] Zomis commented on issue #223: New mod: "Mythos"

> Great start!

Here are some further questions about this mod:

- Will the scrap + upgrade mechanic exist at all?
- How should Mana work?
- How should attacking work? (with blocking?)
- Should there be two rows on the battlefield on this one? (this idea has come up before)
- What other properties should exist on cards? Ranged? Taunt? Rush? Some new ones?

9:31 PM

[Cardshifter/Cardshifter] Phrancis commented on issue #223: New mod: "Mythos"

> I think Scrap could be used creatively but differently, triggering effects instead of resources. Imagine for example:
**"Hades"**: "Can return to the Underworld and take one enemy with him"
_(on Scrap, reduce one opponent's card to 0 health)_

[Cardshifter/Cardshifter] Zomis commented on issue #223: New mod: "Mythos"

> Okay, so essentially it's not scrap at all :) Just some effects that can be triggered (that also seem to destroy the creature).

I suspect that you will want the discard pile concept, as specified in #212, to be implemented for this mod?

9:56 PM

[Cardshifter/Cardshifter] Phrancis commented on issue #223: New mod: "Mythos"

> This mod would be a great candidate for the discard pile, yes. Depending of whether we are shooting for 0.6 or 0.7 on this one (I'd prefer 0.6) we may or may not need the discard pile feature at first and just implement it in the mod later when it's available.

[Cardshifter/Cardshifter] Phrancis commented on issue #223: New mod: "Mythos"

> Just found an awesome website we can use for reference to the various mythologies: GodChecker.com

10:42 PM

@Simon which branch should I check out to try to compile it? js-load?

11:20 PM

@Phrancis yes, or even better: Merge js-load into your js branch

[Cardshifter/Cardshifter] Zomis commented on issue #223: New mod: "Mythos"

> I agree that aiming for 0.6 for this one is good, and also implementing more features in the mod as they're supported.

11:45 PM

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