English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2015-02-12 (page 1 of 2)

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12:13 AM

Waited 10 zillion hours for this.

0

A: What is 'pink' and what is 'magenta'?

All Pinks Are Magenta—and All Magentas are Purple Pink and magenta have the same hue. What distinction there is to be found between them lies along other axes than that of hue. All pinks are magenta and all magentas are purple, and by extension, pink is a purple. However, it does not work t...

Had it in my fricking edit buffer, but it wouldn't let me post, didn't grandfather me because SO is broken on Mac Safari in this regard, and so I dumped it in comments where it didn’t belong.

@tchrist Your life now has meaning!

You have waited all it for this!

12:34 AM

What, are you some kind of commie? — Mitch 19 secs ago

12:50 AM

my 2048-AI is reaching 512

well not always..

now it reaches 1024, but the grids are messy, not regular/sorted enough

[ SmokeDetector ] Offensive answer detected: What's a less offensive substitute for "Rep-Whores" by Michael Southcott on english.stackexchange.com

1:12 AM

augh! You know, every mention of wh... aha! you almost had me there, Matrix! You almost trolled me into repeating the word 'wh... gah, you're so clever, Matrix, once again you almost had me.

@Mitch I made it better.

Anyway, commies are red not pink.

@KitZ.Fox Spectral violet has no red and blue admixture. It is its own color. You can get a metameric lookalike playing tricks with mixing red and blue, but there is no purple in the rainbow. There is, however, violet.

1:39 AM

I'm not certain why you are sharing this information with me.

Because you are delightful.

Are you referring to our actual perception of color? The limitations of the photopigments?

You said that violet was a purple. Technically, it is not.

In common usage, however, people don't distinguish those.

It's certainly not pink.

Which was really my point.

Violet is not pink. Violet is violet.

If you desaturate violet, you get lilac or lavender or some such.

1:42 AM

Yes.

But pink? You can’t get there from here.

They’re very nice colors.

I agree. I didn't really need to press the point, but I was incredulous.

I mean violet, lilac, lavender. Not so fond of pink but that's me.

They aren't anything like pink.

Even people with reduced color-sensitivity would be unlikely to confuse them with pinks.

The sexist stereotyping is stoopit and ichy.

1:44 AM

About the color labels?

It is sad that he believes it.

Yes.

But there is probably no hope of changing his mind about this.

It's what he wants to be true.

I have no idea what kind of truth there is to it. Men are more likely to have deficiencies in color sensation.

Well, that is totally different.

And only women can be tets.

But I don't think it would affect how many names they give to colors.

tetrachromats

Well...

If you only have two different pigments in your cones, and nobody ever tried to tell you things were different from each other you didn’t call very different, you might not invent names for the very tiny differences.

1:46 AM

It might. I could see that it might. But surely there would still be many.

There are always infinitely many.

But they might not seem far enough apart to deserve each a name of their own.

Even dichromats see infinitely many colors.

I suppose you might say that the exceedingly super-rare monochromat also sees infinitely many, but these are all shades of grey for all that person cares.

Still, infinitely many of them.

Is there a test for tetras?

That doesn't involve sampling my retina.

I don't know of any online one, no. But there are documented, proven cases.

Oh, I found one. brb

k

I won't even look. It would only depress me. :)

Thing is, depending on the mutation and the resulting pigment variation, not all tetras are identical.

1:52 AM

Not a strong color senser?

Q: Is there an online test that I can do? A: Unfortunately, computer screens do not provide enough colour information to be able to ‘tap into’ the extra dimension that tetrachromats may possess. It is therefore impossible for an online test to investigate tetrachromacy.

Do you have any male relatives with minor color glitches?

Not that I know of. I'd be surprised if I were tet.

I don’t have any that I know of either.

The test they mention is the one I'm doing.

> How many women might have four types of cone? 12% of women carry such an altered gene, but we do not know how many of these women can use their additional cone type to make colour discriminations that are unachievable for the rest of us.

1:56 AM

Wow, blues are hard.

There is a good reason for that.

You don’t get to use your long-wavelength cones to triangulate on them.

And violets are really super tough because now you can’t even use your medium codes, just the short ones.

It’s a lot like losing depth perception when you close one eye.

Except we have "three eyes" as far as color goes. Well, most of us.

I still find that there are more discernible cool colors than there are warm ones.

You know I did vision research, right?

I knew you did eye stuff, but I didn’t know if you did the neuro-processing.

Explaining color constancy without biology is hard.

Even achieving it is hard: look at digital cameras. )

Apparently I have very good color acuity.

Color constancy being the accommodation our brains make to achieve what a camera thinks of as white balance.

2:01 AM

With 0 as best and 99 as worst, I scored a 4.

No wonder you were upset at people calling violet pink, or whatever it was. :)

What vision research?

My dissertation work was on visuo-cognitive deficits in Parkinson's patients.

o

But my early research was on color/location change blindness.

I'm not sure what that means.

2:04 AM

That means the rotation project that I did before I officially joined the lab.

Let me see if I can recollect.

"Rotation blindness" is not something I'm sure I know what is. Perhaps I have it. :)

No, no, lab rotations. We did projects in up to three labs before we joined one.

Gosh.

Right.

Here I was thinking Lab colorspace. :)

L*a*b

Oh. Yes. I see why that might be confusing.

> The physiological basis for color constancy is thought to involve specialized neurons in the primary visual cortex that compute local ratios of cone activity, which is the same calculation that Land's retinex algorithm uses to achieve color constancy. These specialized cells are called double-opponent cells because they compute both color opponency and spatial opponency.

Actually, human vision is much better than that algorithm, but anyways.

2:07 AM

So iirc, the rationale went something like: color is processed in one pathway, object locations in a different pathway, so object integration occurs somewhere, probably in the parietal cortex.

Cue the bit about double-opponent cells. Thanks for covering that.

The experiments that we did, we were looking to see if we could differentially affect one pathway in the integration process.

Could you?

The results were inconclusive.

I redesigned the study once and ran it again.

Science is mostly boring.

I mean, doing science.

People were better at detecting changes in location than changes in color.

Well, the ones who survived were. :)

2:10 AM

Well, that's not quite right.

The easy ones were easy regardless and the hard ones were hard regardless, but the intermediate ones were easier spatially.

Which suggests that the degree of change for location was larger than color.

At least, that's what I remember concluding.

I don't think any one of us thought to check the participants' color acuity. All we required was "normal color vision".

Then get women.

I haven't thought of object integration in fifteen years or more.

I see a survival advantage in prioritizing for location over color.

PPA sticks in my head. I used to know where the pathways diverged, but now I'm not sure. MT4?

PPA is probably post-parietal area.

LIP. Hmm. Lateral something parietal.

I need to see somebody about brain rot.

2:15 AM

Your brain is rotting?

Yeah.

What are your symptoms?

Short-term memory utterly shot. Including especially the super-short term flash memory.

Or is that not the issue?

Oh.

I can't look at a number, look away, and remember it. No flash.

2:16 AM

Are you taking medications?

A few.

I assume this is a change for you.

It's been getting worse.

Ten years ago it didn't happen.

Are they medications that would affect your memory?

Are you getting enough sleep?

I spent most of those ten years destroying brain cells through undiagnosed extreme sleep apnea.

2:17 AM

Is the sleep apnea resolved?

Yes, it is.

CPAP, religiously.

I could use more sleep.

Chronic mild sleep deprivation can cause those symptoms.

I think I got myself hooked on diphenhydramine for sleeping.

Technically you can't, but I hear you.

Well, the machine records report AHI of like 2 now instead of like 115.

But I really want 8h, not 5-6h.

2:19 AM

Do you have other concerning symptoms, or is the memory problem the only thing that's bothering you at the moment.

Just memory.

I honestly spent a week trying to remember the fricking name of a huge important project I worked on 15 months ago.

@tchrist So your sleep is still interrupted, just far less frequently?

It wasn't until I took a walk that it came to me.

I don't know. I don't wake up much, unless I drink a lot of liquids, and even then only once or twice. Used to be 6-8 times a night. I went years without any REM or stage 3 sleep. I rather think that blew out my wetware.

It certainly isn't good for it.

My blood O2 was dipping into the 70s.

2:21 AM

Do you have high blood pressure or heart disease?

And almost never getting above 89.

Good lord.

Former.

But controlled to 115/60.

@tchrist You live in Colorado, try pot. That stuff is great for sleeping, though not altogether wonderful for memory.

@KitZ.Fox This is why I think I fried stuff.

Pot is good for sleeping if that's what it does to you.

2:23 AM

Yes, that it is.

I'm reverse-wired.

Well, it gets you high for a while, but when you come down usually you crash.

Kinda of a sleepy, dreamy crash.

There are so many different strains on the market.

With different effects.

Well, you have pot distributors. I'm sure they can advise you on which to use.

Still, they can make me severely aphasic.

2:24 AM

Out here it's catch as can.

Oh of course I could go to the store. I hear they are very nice to you.

Note lowercase store.

Apparently nexium can cause sleep disturbances in rare cases.

@tchrist Yes.

Not rare. Uncommon.

BTW, let it be said that this country is going to miss having Jon Stewart watching our backs.

2:25 AM

Hm.

Do you get aerobic exercise?

Seldom. I have grown very sedentary.

Sedentary is the worst.

I did a couple 1.5m walks over the weekend, but it was kinda cold today, and I had to put pants on to be happy outside. What a terrible excuse!

I was sedentary for over a year after my knee operation, and my BP shot up, I got sleep problems, etc.

2:26 AM

The picture I'm getting in my head suggests that the medications are lowering your blood pressure, which is good for your overall health, but decreases your oxygen flow.

Yeah, it all started with skeletal problems.

Then I started getting back into aerobic exercise and BP plummeted, cholesterol plummeted, and I sleep great.

That will have an impact on your memory. Sleep and breathing.

I catch myself not breathing all the time. I don't know why I do it.

Aerobic exercise will help that, and more sleep if you can manage it.

@tchrist Tachypnea.

Maybe.

Could be a side effect. Might be related to your sleep apnea.

2:28 AM

I don't take deep breaths to fill my lungs.

Very very shallow.

Only when out walking/hiking do I seem to breath correctly.

So a consult is a good idea.

Because I'm not actually a doctor.

Yeah, I was thinking that. GP or MD Psychiatry?

I feel it is neurological, since it is memory loss.

Neurophysiologist?

(and so my bias shows)

heh

It's not exactly psychiatric.

2:30 AM

@tchrist Do you take any sleep meds?

Basically, I am convinced it is somehow an organic disorder, not some attitude problem.

But it is neurologic.

I think so too. I think you need more oxygen to your brain.

And more sleep.

@Robusto Somewhat, sometimes. I'm trying to quit the damn benadryl.

When I don't take it, I can't seem to sleep till predawn.

@tchrist Because I've heard that if you take benzodiazepenes those can cause memory problems.

Maybe you need to give yourself a few days to adjust to not taking it.

2:31 AM

@Robusto fmh

And let yourself get tired and cranky.

And take a nice warm bath and drink some warm milk.

snxx

The idea was maybe those would be less groggifying than diphenhydramine.

Probably need to just let myself get exhausted, but my whole world suffers.

Yeah. You'd need a vacation or something.

@tchrist Do you watch TV in bed? Do something other than try to sleep?

Or sick days?

2:34 AM

@Robusto I can't go to bed without books!!!

@tchrist Pinko!

I don't watch TV. At all. Ever. Period. Honest.

@tchrist I was just messing around. But, pictures, nice.

@tchrist Did you ever?

You're sure you're not having any other symptoms? Like dry mouth or abdominal pain or anything?

@tchrist OK, here's a trick I use. Find a book you like but know well, and read that. There won't be any tension from the story keeping you awake, but you'll be somewhat bored enough to fall asleep. Works for me.

2:34 AM

@Mitch Till I turned 11 or 12.

Half of he jeopardy questions involve common culture.

@KitZ.Fox Not those ones, no.

@Mitch And the other half involves utter bullshit.

@Robusto I have been doing that.

Going to sleep is not really a problem. I just don't stay asleep till dawn like I want to.

@tchrist Have you tried putting on quiet music? Debussy, Ravel, that sort of thing?

2:36 AM

@Robusto made-up bullshit. not the possibly true stuff.

@Mitch I would fail every one of those. I know it.

@Robusto Not in a very long time, no.

@tchrist I'd prefer to not sleep, in order to get things done, but I'd much prefer to sleep because I can't be expected to do anything then.

You could try that.

However, I play it in my own head, and that does help.

@Robusto John Cage.

2:37 AM

Again, going to sleep, not problem. Sleeping for 8 hours, more problem.

But mainly you have to bite the bullet and simply close your eyes and say, "I'm going to go to sleep if it takes all night." And keep doing that, night after night, until it works. Eventually it will. It did for me. And don't beat yourself up if you have a white night. Just go at it again next night.

Yeah.

Can you take it in shifts?

@tchrist If I were by myself, I wouldn't have a TV. What total BS. But since I'm not it's kinda fun.

Waking up early suggests either some kind of physical sleep disturbance or depression.

2:38 AM

@KitZ.Fox Sometimes I have to. But the machine says I'm not having interruptions. I could get a recording pulsox to make sure, but I think my sleeping O2 is back in the 90s where it belongs. That's what the data said last check.

@Robusto do you at some point give up and get out of bed and do stuff (but are of course stil tired)?

@tchrist The main thing is not to hyperventilate about your insomnia. Just view it as a burden you have to bear patiently. Because not bearing it patiently is giving in to it. Think of it as riding a tiger. You want to keep the tiger as quiet and docile as possible. As soon as you buck, it eats you.

@KitZ.Fox Or maybe you don't need that much sleep?

@Mitch No. I sometimes read, and that usually gets me back to sleep.

@Mitch That's highly unlikely.

2:39 AM

Boy people get bitchy at night, don't they? Lotsa flags.

But if you sleep in the morning and in the evening, you might get enough sleep.

@tchrist Insomniacs, the lot of 'em.

But couldn't it be (I know I'm coming late to the discussion) be a cultural expectation making one anxious about not being like others, when it's perfectly natural variant?

And take the pressure off.

@Mitch It's not natural to be tired and unable to function at work.

2:41 AM

@Mitch Six hours of sleep daily is not enough for anyone, no matter how variant. But sleeping in two episodes or three or four instead of one might could work.

Another key to sleeping is maintaining a regular sleep schedule.

If you nap here and there, it defeats that.

@KitZ.Fox I don't understand why so many people don't understand that.

And although that might not be "normal", it's a workable solution.

@tchrist Maybe because they don't have kids, so they never did research on sleep deprivation?

When I was in my twenties some friends decided they were going to try sleeping like Leonardo, taking lomg afternoon naps and sleeping for three or four hours at night. That lasted about a month, at which point they were so exhausted they had to stop.

So the long and short of it is, I think, find a way to get more sleep and find a way to get more aerobic exercise in daily.

Also, drink a lot of water.

2:45 AM

Tiene que ser un bebé en tiempo soñoliento

Oh right, I keep getting dizzy-dehyrated from not drinking enough. Classic Colorado stupidity.

Because that will affect your brainpower too.

Hydration is essential. Dehydration is the cause of a lot of headaches.

@tchrist I bet @medica would say that that's just normal age relatedlife complexity, not a sign of something like Alzheimer's or other nuerophysiological problems. But as every one says...ask a real doctor just family practice. If you're really concerned, they might refer you to a neurologist who will give you a bunch of memory tests.

Hint: know what day of the week it is. Also know what date it is, but don't say it too quick or they'll know you studied.

It's certainly not Alzheimer's.

2:46 AM

@Mitch How do you expect people with memory problems to remember what doctor to call?

At some level, I feel like I never do anything but push words through my head, and I think I need to have more time without that. No reading, writing, listening to NPR. More piano, much more walking.

It's not even dementia.

@Robusto Oh...I didn't read that part.

@tchrist Yes. Some moving meditations.

@tchrist More music! Remember, music will always be your oldest, bestest friend. It always comes back to you. And it never, ever judges you.

2:48 AM

@KitZ.Fox I'd think not, but hear about people , claiming they're happy, who claim they only sleep 4 hrs a night.

I bet they take naps during they now that I think of it.

@Mitch Maybe they do. Maybe they nap four hours in the afternoon.

jinx

@KitZ.Fox Not yet, maybe. Dementia 'linked' to common over-the-counter drugs.

It's certainly different, but it's not unheard of. You don't have to sleep all at once.

I’m worried. I've been taking it off and on for a very long time.

Too late to undo anything, but I don't have to keep making it worse.

@Robusto "First call a regular doctor the one who gives vaccinations and stuff, and maybe he'll tell you to call that doctor that does the memory thing."

2:50 AM

@tchrist There's nothing you've said that leads me to believe you have done anything seriously permanent at this point. So yeah, stop taking benadryl and find other ways of getting enough sleep.

@tchrist "Experts say people should not panic or stop taking their medicines."

Well, it's like I have an Rx for benadryl.

Quietly, quietly, I put down the bottle of medicine and walk slowly over to the shotgun....

JAMA is not as good about research as they want people to believe.

Or how BBC reports it (JAMA could be fine and the media is making a 'story' out of it).

2:52 AM

There was a paper more than a year ago about this too.

It's a classic correlation-causation thing.

And mass media.

Depression meds don't cause dementia. People who are depressed are more likely to develop dementia.

clinicalcorrelations.org/?p=6162

> After forty-five minutes of researching and using information databases that are only accessible to me via my medical school library, I had found that the information my friend’s original fear was based on was at best inconclusive.

Bueno, ahora tengo que ir a dormir.

2:55 AM

Me too.

I live in Atlantic TZ or something lame.

I thought you were on Mountain time.

But a kitty is not back, damn it.

Body is messed up.

Keep getting up at 4 or 5.

Well, just go with it.

Don't fight it.

Oh here he is.

I just hadn't called him, I guess.

Nice that he comes, though.

Yes, kitty purring on your neck will help you sleep.

2:57 AM

They mauled me last night, totally.

Wait!!

Kitties do get me up!

I always forget this.

I refuse to let them out till it's light, though.

I do get woken up pretty much every night, sometimes twice or thrice, by kitties.

Ah, well. There's your problem right there then.

But it comforts me that they snuggle.

I just cannot appease them.

Then naps.

Must not let them get me out of bed.

Let them get you out of bed so you can exercise.

3:00 AM

At 3am?

Then get back in bed and sleep some more.

Oh for naps. Right.

It was when I taking 3 naps a day that I knew I had apnea.

Skeletal injuries, immobility, weight gain, apnea. Bang ouch.

I fall asleep with the larger one like a clutch-pillow.

Aww.

I started taking benadryl because I am not perfectly desensitized and I was getting sinus infections from the drainage of cat-allergies.

When I lived on my own, one would take the back of my neck and the other the back of my knees.

3:03 AM

You could have been dinner

I am still allergic to other people's cats, though not at all so much as when I was young and it would cause asthma.

My own, not so much.

What about an air filter?

Would that help?

CPAP has one, including one for if you live with cats. I should change it more often though.

That's why I figured having them sleep with me would be ok.

All my air was super-filtered.

Is.

I think we talked about the cats waking you up at night?

Yes but I forgot!!!!

I have forgotten more than most people ever know.

I don't even remember what I don't remember anymore.

3:06 AM

I think there is a club for that.

Assisted Living Plan for Aging Programmers?

I seem to remember your telling me you refused to lock them out in such a way that they couldn't wake you up.

I will not lock them out, of course not.

Nor will I lock them in with me. They are free spirits.

I most certainly would, and so would my advice be to you.

Your health is more important than having your kitties near you when you sleep.

They help keep me alive. I get dangerously depressed when I am all alone like that.

3:08 AM

But I know you will not listen.

You will be asleep, you will not even know.

Sleep deprivation is not good for depression.

I know. So is being alone.

I’m not alone when they are with me.

There is nothing wrong with being "alone" when you are unconscious.

One has to get there first.

You can look forward to greeting them in the morning when you wake up.

I do.

Because they keep reminding me. :)

3:10 AM

shrugs

It's after 8pm. This is ridiculous. I was up at like 3:45am. I must retire. Thank you all very much.

Good night!

Sleep tight!

purr purr purr

Sleep well, and don't let them wake you up!

Cats: can't sleep with them, can't sleep without.

OK, there's a difference. Sleeping with a dog in the bed just doesn't sound comfortable.

2 hours later…

5:16 AM

For you gamers :-)

1 hour later…

6:17 AM

For you thinkers :D

4 hours later…

A Beautiful Mind

10:10 AM

Hello @MattE.Эллен.

Matt E. Эллен

good morning @ABeautifulMind

A Beautiful Mind

I have lost 3 kg the past month. I am now 62 kg.

I think it's because I have been thinking a lot and not eating much.

What do you think of the weight loss?

Matt E. Эллен

10:25 AM

I don't know

sounds like a lot, but if you're not feeling any worse for it, then don't worry

A Beautiful Mind

@MattE.Эллен Oh, happy birthday!

Matt E. Эллен

thank you :D

A Beautiful Mind

Maybe you will meet Maria tonight.

Matt E. Эллен

maybe I will

A Beautiful Mind

Maybe I will get my miracles in the end.

Matt E. Эллен

10:34 AM

maybe you will

11:14 AM

@ABeautifulMind ah you beat me, I'm 65/68kg (morning/evening) now :(

A Beautiful Mind

@crl I am only 1.65 m.

right, but still

Matt E. Эллен

@ABeautifulMind according the the NHS BMI calculator, you're at a healthy weight

A Beautiful Mind

@MattE.Эллен OK. But I did not measure my height and weight accurately. I think my weighing machine might be faulty.

Matt E. Эллен

@ABeautifulMind that's OK, that's accurate enough.

12:09 PM

user image

12:19 PM

@ABeautifulMind It's called a "scale."

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