TRPG General Chat

Dorian

5:00 AM

Miss chance is the only thing that I'm iffy with and even then, I get to try twice against it.

I can hit flatfooted touch if I really need to as well.

He was planning on putting us up against a CR20.

doppelgreener

@Dorian I'm not sure BESW's suggesting enemies for you so much as things to use on enemies

Dorian

Because tbh, it might be the only thing that can actually kill us.

doppelgreener

@BESW Care to clarify?

BESW

Not really. I'm not a 3.5 expert anymore, if I ever was, and the group in question is far outside my experience.

Dorian

The trip god and the hulk both got hit by lightning, taking like 15 dice worth of damage.

The trip god wasn't even phased between DR and fast healing.

The hulk willingly failed his reflex save, and wasn't even bloodied by it.

BESW

5:02 AM

But it does sound like one problem he's facing is that the GM is unable/unwilling to challenge the party.

Dorian

Thus far he has been unable.

Because he kept trying to increase the CR, and none of it mattered.

BESW

If the party felt challenged, then it'd be easier to identify a useful role in the party.

@Dorian Yeeeah. If he's still trying to use CR as a measure of challenge, he's got a lot less system mastery than it sounds like his players have.

Dorian

Which is another reason I was going for an arcanist... Because that would have been useful vs the only challenge we faced (flying 15th lvl fullcaster minotaur, plus racial HD and etc)

Dispelling and the like. But I'd rather not go full wizard or sorcerer or whatever.

And yes, he has much less system mastery than them for the most part.

BESW

That's... not usually a good thing, when players use their system mastery to out-perform their GM rather than to create characters that he can challenge.

doppelgreener

.... Maybe you should ask this SE: "Our party is built like this. How can our GM challenge us?" And then show him it after you get some results.

Dorian

5:05 AM

As far as I know, he is rather new to 3.5. He has merged alot of things with PF rules, and has tweaked things with some 3.0 rulings as well.

To put it simply, the GM is taking the kid gloves off. We know this.

We're gonna need to defend against ubercasters.

We've been in a situation where two out of the four characters in the party handle pretty much any combat situation, get healed by the cleric out of combat, and then there's me, sneaking around with such a high bonus that it's astonishing when someone actually notices I even exist (in and out of game...)

It's gotten to the point where I roll my hide/move silently, lurk, mute my mic, and play xbox until something interesting happens.

Combat for me consists of "oh, my turn? what's still alive? alright, tumble 20ft, shoot, hit, drop a dozen dice, it's dead. hide/move silently again. ignore the rest of the round"

BESW

@doppelgreener When you have time, I'm at a loss for aspects to give Chuck.

Dorian

I have reason to be so confidant in my stealth. I have a +31 to hide, and the Darkstalker.

I can roll a 1 and most still won't notice me.

My last was a solid 50 to hide. I went into whisper with the GM and started doing random stupid shit. Including using my poor bluff check to throw my voice and actually talk.

Even actually talking to people, they can't see me. I can be standing right next to someone and talking to them, and I'm functionally invisible to them.

It's boring. Very boring.

Meh, I'll just continue playing this ninja archer until either he can't do decent damage or I get a better idea or he dies. Whichever comes first.

BESW

I retired my quarterling because the kind of scene I would be in wasn't the kind of scene anyone else could be in.

Dorian

Stay the course for lack of a better option. let's see what happens with the crap the Dm wants to throw at us now.

Adeptus

5:24 AM

Your party sound ridiculously powerful for 9th level

BESW

On the one hand--yes. On the other hand--it's 3.5 and the casters are taking backseat to the non-casters as conflict enders, so it can't be that overpowered.

Magician

Good morning.

Adeptus

While on the topic of 3.5 characters... my wife's Rogue just levelled up on the weekend. She's got TWF, so has a good sneak attack, but wants something to help her survive in general melee. Level 6, and core-only (yes, I know...)

@Magician Afternoon

Miniman

@Adeptus Is she looking for an item? A feat? A cross-class level?

Magician

...drat, you're in Australia too, I can't even bluff and pretend it's the timezones.

2

Miniman

5:37 AM

A PrC?

lisardggY

Good morning.

(And I actually mean it)

Adeptus

@Miniman All of the above... looking at her options at this point. I'm suggesting Two-Weapon Defense and/or Spring Attack, or seeing if the rogue-y DMG PrC's appeal to her

She wants a ring of invisibility, but that's going to take some saving up for

Miniman

I would strongly suggest the Assassin PrC - it's really strong and adds some great spells, including Invisibility.

Adeptus

For my Ranger, I'm hoping I can convince the DM to let me take the ACFs from Complete Champion, to substitute for spells & animal companion. Since I don't think either is very useful.

@Miniman That could be good, as long as the DM doesn't stick to RAW for requirements - Evil alignment & kill someone for no other reason but to join the assassins?

Miniman

@Adeptus Both of those are really useful. Just not when gained at half speed.

@Adeptus Are both workable, but yes, it's easier with a DM who's loose on fluff requirements

Adeptus

5:45 AM

@Miniman Exactly. And the party already has a cleric and a druid

Dorian

we are ridiculously overpowered. to the point where we don't NEED casters =_=

i'm not kidding. for a while our only caster died, and we had an NPC caster cohort following us around. idk what she was, but she pretty much cast truestrike once or twice, and shot weak arrows. think she healed the hulk after he willingly got struck by lightning.

we mowed through a whole ton of crap with that. in fact, at one point a trap turned my rogue to stone, leaving the hulk and the trip god and the npc. they STILL mowed through everything and the NPC stood in the back doing the occasional 1-3 dmg to something

Lord_Gareth

@Dorian [Maniacal laughter intensifies]

Dorian

the group calls itself murderhobo inc

doppelgreener

50 mins ago, by BESW

It sounds like your GM is either unwilling or unable to optimise at the same level as his players.

Lord_Gareth

Yeah...your DM isn't keeping up with you. The game, on the other hand, is way ahead.

doppelgreener

5:48 AM

(it's the second one)

Dorian

as I said before. unable

Adeptus

Now I need to work out how to persuade my core-only DM to let me use ACFs... I don't know if @Lord_Gareth's "core is unbalanced" argument will convince him or just make him dig his heels in.

Lord_Gareth

@Adeptus Depends on the ACF, really. The wizard/sorcerer ones are strictly better than base, for instance.

Abrupt Jaunt vs. Familiar? Jaunt wins, every time.

Adeptus

8 mins ago, by Adeptus

For my Ranger, I'm hoping I can convince the DM to let me take the ACFs from Complete Champion, to substitute for spells & animal companion. Since I don't think either is very useful.

Champion of the Wild, & Spiritual Guide

Lord_Gareth

Ranger spells get some amazing support outside of core and let them natively use some awesome buff wands. If the campaign is otherwise core-only, that trade would probably be fine.

A.Companion...well, without non-core spells that trade is also probably fine

Dorian

5:56 AM

actually... i just thought of is...

just thought of something...

I think alot of it is the DM was both unwilling and unable to optimize with the party. His response to me regarding the Arcane Swordsage just popped into my head.. That being: it's too much work to allow it since it's not statted up in the book

prolly also why he leans to RAW alot. And when in doubt he's more likely to say "let's go with this" than to actually think of how something actually works...

Lord_Gareth

To be fair, Arcane Swordsage is a Lovecraftian abomination which must never enter this world.

No matter how well you think you've fixed the concept, you haven't

Dorian

Honestly, if the spell list is restricted, it's no less broken than the Swordsage itself

BESW

I'd like some help on brainstorming for an NPC in my upcoming Wild West DFAE game, if/when anyone has time.

BESW's Spoil-Lair

CAUTION: High chance of plot. Not for BESW's players.

Lord_Gareth

@Dorian See the above post, about no matter how well you think you've fixed it, you haven't fixed it at all.

Dorian

It's only as broken as the regular swordsage.

Miniman

6:01 AM

@BESW Once again, I'm happy to say random crap with my complete lack of knowledge in the hope of inspiring good ideas.

Lord_Gareth

@Dorian Regular swordsage isn't broken at all. Arcane swordsage, presuming that you provided spells of actual use in combat and/or a traditional swordsage role, will be

Spells are terrifying

doppelgreener

@Lord_Gareth Extremely powerful? Badly made?

@BESW if it's safe to do so, i may enter to help later this evening

BESW

It's safe.

Dorian

I have seen a ton of spells that would be useful, most of which would consist of touch spells and personal buffs.

Not counting stuff like Polymorph.

Lord_Gareth

@doppelgreener Imagine a wizard who can re-memorize his spells at will and change what spells he has memorized as a full-round action

Then change nothing

doppelgreener

6:04 AM

@Lord_Gareth oh right, that one.

Adeptus

What, so, unlimited castings?

Dorian

Right, but you re limited to oh 11 spells known, and only 6 ready (not counting sustained personal buffs)

Lord_Gareth

@Dorian You do know how CoDZilla works, right? I've seen melee wizard builds that run solely on Wizard levels, feats, & buffs.

Dorian

Because guess what, the Swordsage can do the exact same thing.

doppelgreener

@Lord_Gareth What's codzilla stand for?

Miniman

6:05 AM

@doppelgreener Cleric or druid

Dorian

Again, Wizards have an unrestricted spell list.

doppelgreener

@Miniman a specific set of builds, or just "be a cleric or a druid"?

Lord_Gareth

@doppelgreener Cleric-or-Druid-zilla, usually used specifically to mean a build in one of those two classes that is "gishy" or utilizes both weapon attacks and spells.

doppelgreener

@Lord_Gareth Ah ok.

Lord_Gareth

For instance, a Divine Metamagic: Persist cleric that runs on 24 hour buffs

Dorian

6:06 AM

And it would be arcane, not divine.

Also, I don't build characters to abuse them. I build characters to play them.
That's part of my problem with my current character.

I can't play him, because he's untouchable.

I built him TOO well.

Lord_Gareth

@Dorian Swordsage runs into some sharp limitations that you'd encounter in a more general environment than the table you're playing at. Suffice it to say that 11 spells and Adaptive Style are more than enough for Arc Swordsage to swagger into tier 2

Dorian

And while his damage output won't be able to keep up with the rest of the party in future levels, he is nigh impossible to find without a massive spot AND true seeing.

If you abuse it, yes.

Lord_Gareth

@Dorian Mindsight, touchsight

BESW

...lifesight was a personal favourite.

Dorian

We're currently dealing with a party of mostly T3 ish characters that have been optimized and are effectively unstoppable.

Lord_Gareth

6:10 AM

@BESW Aaaaah, yes! But lifesight won't actually defeat many forms of stealth

Touchsight and mindsight are the hard-line "Screw yo Hide" abilities

Dorian

And I'm not sure about any of those abilities. My DM resorted to using detect magic to find me =_=

Lord_Gareth

Touchsight is a specific psionic power that sets up an auto-detect field in like a hundred feet of yourself

Wherein your perceive everything as though you were touching it all over

Mindsight is a feat from Lords of Madness that turns your telepathy radius into an auto-detect field

Dorian

Oh, and looking them up, pretty sure with the psionic transparency that the DM set up, I'd still be hidden.

Lord_Gareth

Neither have any RAW method of being defeated

Dorian

Psionic transparency also isn't RAW =_=

Essentially, dispel magic works on psionic powers, and etc. So blindsight, tremorsense, stuff that Darkstalker hides from.... Well pretty sure the psionic stuff would count in there as well thanks to that house rule.

Hell, as I said, had to specifically look for glowing items on me via detect magic just to spot my square.

And still couldn't hit me due to miss chance and reflex saves and still technically couldn't target me.

Had to AoE and well... let's face it, I'm a rogue. AoE doesn't work against me if it allows a reflex save

In the end, he hit me with a Confusion spell.

That was his ONLY way of getting me down.

He tried some black tentacle spell, but I just teleported out of it

BESW

6:15 AM

@Lord_Gareth That's not creepy at all.

Lord_Gareth

@BESW What? Molesting everything with your mind is perfectly normal

Dorian

@Lord_Gareth Agreed

doppelgreener

@BESW Those were my thoughts too, haha.

Lord_Gareth

In any event @Dorian you've only succeeded in making me want to roll out Martini Mage

So thanks for that

Dorian

?

doppelgreener

6:17 AM

Oh! Oh! I might have this one bookmarked. Or maybe you do.

Lord_Gareth

I don't.

BESW

Lord Gareth's Martini wizard on a lawn chair

Mar 11 at 12:37, 16 minutes total – 36 messages, 6 users, 15 stars

Bookmarked Mar 11 at 13:46 by Zachiel

Miniman

I love Craft Contingent Spell

That alone makes Un. East one of the most imbalanced books

BESW

@Lord_Gareth Question: Did you use the A&EG intoxication rules for the martinis?

Lord_Gareth

@BESW Trick question, really. The wizard was immune.

BESW

6:27 AM

Shame.

I was hoping for amusement.

[hic] "You guysh are embarrashing yourshelves." [downs third martini] "Doesh your mother know you took that feat?"

5

doppelgreener

@BESW hehehehehe.

Dorian

@BESW antimagic field item and my sniper would win

Miniman

@Dorian Disjunction says hell no

With the added benefit of destroying all your magic items, all your party's magic items, and leaving the wizard's completely untouched

Lord_Gareth

@Dorian Also there's contingencies for that. See also foresight and celerity.

Dorian

disjunction is 1% per caster level to take care of antimagic field

also, you allowed up to three rounds of buff time in that fight.

so yes, foresight and celerity would help if I activate the thing on 1st combat round, but if it's activated during buff time then nothing else happens.

because it would sustain long enough to peg with some good shots with a perfectly mundane bow and arrow

with skirmish and sneak attack and sudden strike and hide in plain sight

Lord_Gareth

6:44 AM

AMF is a 10 foot field centered on its source, in case you'd forgotten

The only item that creates on, Antimagic shackles, need to be clapped on a creature

Dorian

True, but you can have that changed when making a magic item.

Lord_Gareth

Custom items are beyond the scope of the exercise

Dorian

You said they can craft their own items.

You didn't say anything about not crafting custom items.

Lord_Gareth

The idea is to stick into RAW. Which is actually noted in the 10 Optimization Commandments

Dorian

RAW has rules for crafting custom items.

Including using metamagic feats on the spells generated by said custom items.

DMG2 even includes a way for a non-caster to create magic items.

Lord_Gareth

6:47 AM

But their creation isn't considered RAW. It's not part of polite or even impolite optimization.

Miniman

Besides, isn't custom crafting basically pure GM fiat?

Dorian

Unspoken rules are just that, unspoken. Your stated rules allowed any non-dragon material. That includes custom item creation rules.

If tht wasn't allowed as part of the conditions of the challenge, it should have been stated.

doppelgreener

This argumentativeness is without point: a thing was unsaid, now it is clear.

Adeptus

doppelgreener

(or just arguing? idk.)

Dorian

6:50 AM

This is why I am continuously frustrated with my current 3.5 DM. He lists a ton of what's allowed and what's banned, and says to do whatever. And then, when I think outside the box and come up with something unusual he bans it on unstated rules.

BESW

@Dorian I think we can safely presume that he made it quite clear with his party, in the context of the exercise, but neglected to spell out every single detail of the experiment when relating it as a story to the chat.

Lord_Gareth

@BESW Pretty much this yes.

[A year and a half before story] "Can we -" "No. No. Hell no. Black gods no. I've seen where that goes and where that ends and I tell you now that I would rather sit down and work out the details of magical items you want to invent case by case than ever read those rules again."

Dorian

Heck, even the guy that got me into this group seems to be in the mindset of "if I can slip it by the DM and get it into play, he won't tell me to rewrite my character after it's already in play"

@Lord_Gareth Here I was assuming this was a one-shot with it's own set of rules that did not have pre-established house rules applied.

anyways, I'm going to sleep, i've had enough of this day, and everything in it.

BESW

ttfn

@Lord_Gareth I want a slingstone that's enchanted with the darkness equivalent of continual flame.

Lord_Gareth

@BESW There is sadly no such spell unless you create it yourself.

Which is somehow an even more vague and horrible system.

doppelgreener

6:57 AM

@Lord_Gareth words of powaaaaahhh

(the last syllable may be a scream of pain)

BESW

Power Word: House Rule.

7

Adeptus

@Lord_Gareth I thought there was, but I may be thinking of 2e... couldn't find anything in the SRD just now

@BESW And you can call it... The Darkenstone! ;)

Lord_Gareth

In any event that was an awkward and oddly hostile conversation.

BESW

@Adeptus I used such a thing twice; once for a vampire so he could walk around in the daytime with his own aura of night, and once for a quarterling who would toss/sling it into a room ahead of himself. "Hey! Who turned out the lights?" [shank shank shank]

Miniman

@Lord_Gareth You should've been here for the whole thing. I missed almost an hour in the middle and it was still ridiculously long

BESW

7:01 AM

(On reflection, I should also have cast silence on the quarterling's stone.)

doppelgreener

So: there was a point today we stopped talking about that group's problems so much and the conversation began to move on, then rants about that group kinda started up. I considered calling a time-out at that point and asking for a change of topic, and a cease on the previous one. Should I do that next time?

Magician

@BESW Regular darkness works just as well. It's a dark torchlight if you hold it right.

doppelgreener

overall it dominated chat for 4-5 hours today

Lord_Gareth

@doppelgreener That's excessive. Beyond.

I mean, hellfire man I hate my group but I don't think I could achieve fifty minutes.

BESW

@doppelgreener Yeah, we'll shove it over to the NAB.

doppelgreener

7:10 AM

@BESW yeah, that sounds ok.

BESW

@Lord_Gareth On the other hand, if anyone ever wants me to wax rhapsodic about my players, I can probably sustain that until someone else shuts me up.

doppelgreener

[burns that gnome stew article at a pyre]

Magician

That bad?

BESW

[bemused]

doppelgreener

@Magician its points in favour of D&D 5e: 1. it feels like D&D, 2. the basic rules are free, 3. it expands a theoretical challenge sweet spot, 4. it's lighter on maths, 5. it speeds up play because it is theatre of the mind, 6. it encourages roleplaying, 7. "it allows you to build more consistent worlds" because you don't have to bump up challenge levels heavily

BESW

7:15 AM

It's very easy to read as "5e is good because it's abandoning 4e."

...and even 3.5.

"It feels like D&D" is explained as (in part) being about starting with weak characters which only gain power as they level up.

doppelgreener

my thoughts: 1. yes, so? 2. nothing else is, 3. design better encounters, 4. no it isn't, and it adds complexity in just trying to understand things, 5. invalid assertion, 6. no no no no no no no no, 7. design better worlds and plots.

BESW

(Which is what 4e actively moved away from)

@doppelgreener All of these are really only reasonable if you think of 5e in contrast to the perceived ethos of 4e by people who don't like it.

1 is "Real D&D doesn't start with powerful PCs."

2 is "Subscription-based DDI is stupid."

3 is "We're going to ignore 4e entirely and act like flaws in previous games weren't addressed by the edition we don't like."

doppelgreener

@BESW (I await these peoples' reactions to the likely subscription-based morningstar project)

BESW

4 is "4e was all about the number crunching MMO stuff."

5 is "Grognard grognard grid users can't think for themselves grognard," spitting on 3.5 and 4e both.

6 is... laughable in the context of almost any other RPG on today's market, and ignores 4e's themes/backgrounds.

Adeptus

@doppelgreener I think I've heard, ~~morningstar~~ dungeonscape is going to have the Basic content free, then a one-off fee to access each section of premium content

BESW

7:20 AM

And 7 is "We didn't like PoL."

doppelgreener

Yes, the general undertone of the review is "I am a grognard, this edition does the things I like and is therefore D&D done properly, because all the other kinds of D&D are invalid or done wrong"

BESW

The best part is that it starts by saying "Lots of people play D&D in very different ways, and 5e is trying to appeal to all of them," and then says "It succeeds because it's D&D the way I want to play it!"

doppelgreener

@Adeptus oh? i'll be interested to see how they divvy that up.

@BESW Yes. So, it can go burn in a pyre.

BESW

Gnome Stew gave me two very useful articles a very long time ago.

Since then, the best I've ever been able to say about any of its content was "I guess that's probably helpful to someone, but you didn't say it very well."

doppelgreener

3

A: RPG General Chat: vote for your feeds!

http://feeds.feedburner.com/GnomeStew Gnome Stew, a group blog about GMing. It's system-agnostic but focused on pretty traditional play. Here's an example from the recent post, More than One Chance to Shine: First, if a PC only has one chance to shine during a four hour (or more) session th...

I just pushed it below 4 points. Can we remove it from the feeds?

BESW

7:24 AM

I give such things a little while for votes to even out.

Magician

@doppelgreener Added my vote.

doppelgreener

@BESW Very well.

Yeah, it did just hit 2, haha. But waiting a while is fair enough.

BESW

It's sitting at +9/-7.

doppelgreener

@BESW and yes this is the one that really got me.

BESW

"Hey, look! 5e divorced alignment from mechanics! There's no alignment detection spells or class alignment prerequisites! How new and novel!"

doppelgreener

7:30 AM

i could say a lot of words about their attempt to assert that, but i will just settle for the ones that go "no no no no no this is never even remotely the case why have you put this in words"

BESW

This award-winning site has published an article that displays blatant ignorance about seven recent years of the franchise whose history the article's premise is about.

doppelgreener

it is as you said: in the context and knowledge of other systems, the idea that 5e encourages roleplaying is laughable.

@BESW also, the RPG landscape, because "having backgrounds" and "alignments are now optional" is their basis for asserting the game encourages roleplaying.

Oh, and inspiration, which is not an "encourage roleplaying" tool.

BESW

@doppelgreener "Hi, 1985 is calling."

Adeptus

> How will be it made available to the public? Is it free? Is there a one-time cost? A subscription fee?

Matney: The app will be free to download and it will contain some free content in the form of rules and adventures – enough to get a flavor for what DungeonScape does. You can buy material in the same way that you're currently buying it; PHB, MM, DMG. We also allow for a gentler introduction through buying content in smaller pieces – sort of an ‘a la carte’ method rather than having to buy everything up front. There’s also a super bundle option, so in total, there are three pay level op…

gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2014/08/28/…

doppelgreener

@Adeptus you have a redundant :id in there

Magician

7:36 AM

So... You'd buy the book, then buy access to the same book in Dungeonscape?

Adeptus

@doppelgreener Was trying to tag it as a reply to you... apparently unsuccessfully

@Magician I think so

doppelgreener

@Adeptus You did! You just had two :#'s in there.

Adeptus

/fails at chat

doppelgreener

@Adeptus I was wondering if they'd do that and kinda hoping they wouldn't

because, y'know, the idea of buying the same thing twice is frustrating

so doing that will frustrate people.

Adeptus

anyway, gotta go. Later

doppelgreener

7:38 AM

@Adeptus Bye!

BESW

...and, yanno, if you just want to talk about D&D 5e in the context of the history of D&D, that's fine. Ignore the contemporary RPG landscape, and the fact that some of the things you praise 5e for were becoming common in the '80s.

But don't ignore seven years of D&D history in an article about how 5e fits into the history of D&D.

And if you do want to talk about D&D's place in the larger RPG landscape, consider knowing what that landscape currently looks like... and since it's an article with a sense of history, maybe look back a little and see what franchises were D&D's rivals before Paizo and Pathfinder.

I'm not sure you'll find that the World of Darkness was "a game that derived its own mechanics from D&D" unless you expand that to mean EVERY RPG is derived from D&D (a potentially supportable claim, but in your context a meaningless one).

doppelgreener

@BESW in that context, it would mean that when D&D was challenged by an RPG, that RPG was an RPG.

BESW

Eeyup.

doppelgreener

(but in this case it sounds like the RPG world is composed of D&D and Pathfinder, and some other games he hasn't played)

BESW

In summary: they don't know the history of their favourite franchise (or are choosing to retcon it to their liking); they don't know the history of their favourite franchise's competition with other RPGs; they don't know the contemporary RPG landscape; and they feel it's appropriate to claim that one D&D playstyle is superior to another.

doppelgreener

7:45 AM

I'm off to head home, back in a while!

BESW

ttfn

Feeds

BESW has made a change to the feeds posted into this room

BESW

Added Ars Ludi, as it's been voted into the feed since the last time I checked that page.

BESW

8:02 AM

Hmm. Philosophical question: Is the d20 System meaningfully "derived from the mechanics of D&D"?

doppelgreener

8:53 AM

@BESW yes

in a vague sense

BESW

Well, we know D&D 3.5 used the d20 System, but to what extent was the d20 System designed with D&D legacy in mind, and to what extent was D&D shoehorned into it?

doppelgreener

9:34 AM

@Miniman Belatedly: yes. To my knowledge they're offered as general calculation guidelines, and the guidelines themselves say they may be totally incorrect and that price calculations to existing items should definitely be made (mentioned here). Not sure if they go as far as saying that those guidelines are an endorsement that all items that can be made should be (again, given that healing-button item).

@BESW So, I just popped open the d20 system reference document, and it is d20srd.org, and a subset of D&D 3.5e (and a significant subset, minus expansions.)

So it was designed with legacy in mind the way D&D 3.5e was.

Which is to say: it was generally inspired by D&D's legacy, adopted a bunch of its mechanics, copied a bunch of text and ideas from prior editions, but was basically a very different game.

To my knowledge, Pathfinder is closer to D&D 3.5e than D&D 3e was to AD&D 2e.

Hey! Is there anyone here with a World of Darkness book?

wax eagle

10:16 AM

@Magician yes, much to everyone's chagrin. And basically the fall back we continuously hear is "we don't control the publication so codes inserted in books were never a possibility" and "we're worried about piracy" and "we don't control the pricing" TDT who is developing DungeonScape has done their best to appear a powerless partner in all of this

doppelgreener

10:28 AM

@waxeagle and Wizards could do this, but they don't, and leave the consulting company in a position to say they can't do anything about it

BESW

10:39 AM

@doppelgreener [spoilery pokery]

BESW

11:33 AM

In Which Wizards Confuses People By Ignoring Their Own Adventure's Design.

Aaron

11:55 AM

Morning

BESW

Yawp.

trogdor

good morning

wax eagle

12:11 PM

@doppelgreener exactly :(

Magician

At the very least, I'd expect a dungeonscape unlock with a pdf purchase.

wax eagle

@Magician I'd hope so, but first they'd have to offer the PDFs for sale...

Magician

...of course they don't sell pdfs.

wax eagle

They...plan to...eventually

BESW

Soon™.

wax eagle

12:23 PM

speaking of DS, it's supposed to hit beta this week

Aaron

1:26 PM

Hey does this sound like a decent question?

I have been looking for a simple sub system for extreme emotions and how they would effect player's characters. One of the suggestions I have been given is to just use the Rage spell or a weakened Barbarian Rage ability.

While those are not bad suggestions I looked for something a little more in depth than. "You do +2 to hit and damage"

The best comparison of what I am seeking is something like <a href="http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Trance_(Final_Fantasy_IX)">Trance</a> from FF IX.

BESW

What system do you want to plant this into, and what effect do you hope it'll have on the gameplay?

Aaron

@BESW Pathfinder.

doppelgreener

@waxeagle hopefully at least the PDFs will come with Dungeonscape material, or people are going to start calling foul.

"So we can buy the book and the PDF and we still won't have access to it on Dungeonscape? And you reason is that the people you are paying to do this thing can't change access to this thing, you have to, but you're paying them to make it for you?"

"So the entire thing is in your hands, and you're leaving us having to buy the same thing at least twice?"

Aaron

@BESW The effect should be something like. The character enters a state of extreme emotion. In combat they would be able to overwhelm a character who previously was equal to them and out of combat they focus their emotion into what they are doing. For example a crafting check they would get a bonus on crafting the item. This would mostly be Role-play but having mechanics supporting it would help.

BESW

@Aaron That's the mechanical effect. Every mechanical effect should have an effect on the gameplay, the way people act at the table. What do you want this mechanic to change about the way your players make choices?

IE, why do you want this?

wax eagle

1:38 PM

@doppelgreener hopefully

BESW

@Lord_Gareth We've got some tentative hopes that need dashing, here.

wax eagle

I get that there are potential issues with putting codes in books. I don't find them to be sufficiently compelling, but it's not my money (well it is, just on the wrong end of the consumer/provider scale). I'm willing to fork over money for the app stuff, as long as the app actually works, and provides me value.

But if I don't find it to provide value, then we're going to have a problem.

Aaron

@BESW I think having such a mechanic known would encourage more Roleplaying

doppelgreener

@Aaron for me it would just mean this: "I'm gonna make an axe. I get a +2 from rage. Neat! [roll.] I made a good axe."

Aaron

@doppelgreener Oh no DM would be the one who has to grant the bonus.

doppelgreener

1:45 PM

getting a +2 to hit and damage doesn't encourage me to roleplay the attack, and my skill bonuses to craft don't encourage me to roleplay the crafting, i'm not sure rage bonuses to crafting would do anything for roleplay.

Aaron

It would have to be Roll Played out.

doppelgreener

Okay, so this is giving people mechanical bonuses for roleplay.

Aaron

@doppelgreener I agree that is why I am trying to avoid that.

doppelgreener

The thing is, mechanical +X's don't generate roleplaying for any value of X. And putting the DM in charge of when you do and do not get +X based on your roleplay and how well you roleplay is... entering dangerous/bad territory.

Aaron

It is just another one of my hair-brained ideas that I wanted to try.

doppelgreener

1:48 PM

The things that generate roleplay are neither of these things. (Except the second one, which only extracts it by force and not willingness.) If you want to generate roleplay, look elsewhere.

Putting this +X in the GM's territory to give out or not to their whim with the player having no control other than to arbitrarily satisfy the GM's demands means this amounts to blackmail or bribery, which gives too much opportunity for resentment to appear.

That resentment might include when the players can only give token efforts, and aren't Doing It Right, and the GM begins to resent them.

Grubermensch

@doppelgreener I really continue to disagree with this.

wax eagle

from the blog that brought us "how to fence a magic item" we have this gem: projectmultiplexer.com/2014/09/14/…

Grubermensch

I think it certainly can be dangerous, but it can also work very well. It requires preexisting trust among the members of the game group, which doesn't necessarily exist for all groups.

doppelgreener

@Grubermensch yes, and thereafter may simply work blandly

Grubermensch

Possibly...

doppelgreener

1:53 PM

I can tell you from playing Fate - that game where half the mechanics on their own generate drama and roleplay and so on - that the +X bonuses to actions are not the things that generate roleplay.

Grubermensch

I've had great success with a system that does just this.

doppelgreener

I have a troll-blooded character who has +2's to defending others, to landing stronger hits, and he gets invokes and so on, and the potential for extra +'s has never generated roleplay.

Grubermensch

On both sides of the screen, it's created some of my most enjoyable roleplaying moments.

doppelgreener

There are other mechanics which do generate help me generate roleplay - and those, incidentally, may result in +2's.

but the +2's themselves were not the origin of any roleplay. It's the quality of the mechanic it comes from.

Grubermensch

Perhaps.

doppelgreener

1:55 PM

And "Roleplay this better, man" is not a mechanic, nor one that will encourage much.

Aaron

Ok back to my original question. Is that question appropriate for the site or do I need to edit it?

doppelgreener

(Just... one that... extracts, until the GM is satisfied or the player is fed up.)

BESW

@Aaron Needs more detail in terms of goals, I think.

doppelgreener

@Aaron There's no question in your question.

BESW

Right now it looks a lot like "Tell me every emotional subsystem in RPGs and I'll choose the one which speaks to me."

Grubermensch

1:56 PM

@doppelgreener Disagree, but we can table this one before it gets shouty.

doppelgreener

@Grubermensch Well, we could discuss this, though it is almost midnight and you will need to elaborate on your experiences of this

I doubt it will get shouty

Aaron

Ok. I'll fix it

Grubermensch

@doppelgreener It's early morning for me here and, alas, I have work to do. Another time.

Joshua Aslan Smith

yo yo yo

BESW

Yawp yawp yawp.

Emrakul is putting together a rabbi PC for the DFAE game.

doppelgreener

2:09 PM

night y'all

Aaron

Night

Joshua Aslan Smith

interesting

I need to setup skype on this machine

BESW

I've started filling in some of the faces and places, too, but feel free to add/change any of them.

I'm particularly leaving the Sheriff's office for you to define, and the synagogue for Emrakul.

Oxinabox

2:33 PM

I am excited by the existance of this question: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/48234/…

It is such a obscure systems (AFAIK)

Ah thats right, it is notable for being one of the rare rock paper sissors RPGs

Joshua Aslan Smith

@besw appreciated

Aaron

@Oxinabox I don't know the system but that is a very good question.

Lord_Gareth

2:52 PM

@BESW Aslplain

SOMEONE ASPLAIN WHOSE HOPES I AM CRUSHING

Joshua Aslan Smith

3:07 PM

YOU GOT SOME ASPLAININ TO DO

Aaron

Should we crush Gareth's hopes of crushing someone's hope today and not tell him?

Grubermensch

This is delicious

Aaron

@Lord_Gareth Though I assume it is related to the comment by doppelgreener a few lines above BESW summoning you. The one right above mine.

Lord_Gareth

@Aaron I will salt the earth where once your dreams stood

Aaron

@Lord_Gareth You can't crush my dreams! Muhahahaha

Lord_Gareth

3:09 PM

@Aaron That's what the fire is for, silly.

Aaron

@Lord_Gareth They have fire resistance 50

Joshua Aslan Smith

WE WILL RAZE YOUR DREAM TOWER TO THE GROUND WITH MAGICAL FIRES THAT DO NOT TRIGGER YOUR "FIRE RESISTANCE"

Aaron

Contingency: magic water bucket. Puts out your magic fire.

Joshua Aslan Smith

Were using the magical fire equivalent of magnesium. Water only makes it burn hotter.

Aaron

Teleports away with singed dreams

Joshua Aslan Smith

3:16 PM

as much I would wish to hunt you and your dreams through the multiverse I've got questions to answer

MadMAxJr

3:35 PM

Looking at the sidebar.. Isn't "Power Word: House Rule" a synonym for "DM Word: Because I said so" ?

Mourdos

DM Word: Rocks Fall?

Lord_Gareth

DM Word: WHYYYY?

MadMAxJr

DM Word: The designers of this game are all idiots, here is my comprehensive house rule booklet

4

Lord_Gareth

DM Word: Who ordered the pizza?

MadMAxJr

Would it be a divination spell to determine the proper tip amount and pizza pay-in per player?

Grubermensch

3:46 PM

I sure hope your INT 18 Wizard doesn't need to phone a friend on this one.

MadMAxJr

Ah, terrible memories of my die-hard 2nd ed DM. 3.0 was an abomination in his eyes and he had to 'fix' it. Metamagic feats only worked for one spell determined when you purchased the feat.

The five foot blind area on reach weapons was determined to be 'stupid' and he had to demonstrate with a broom how one can simply grip higher up on the haft and fight with a long spear as a short spear. So the blind reach area was done away with..

Grubermensch

If you're "fixing" that much, just play in a system that doesn't seem broken.

MadMAxJr

And when someone used Refocus he had to stop and lecture for 15 minutes on how it was the worst tactical decision you could make and that /you/ are hurting the group by taking that action. To be fair, 3.5 dropped Refocus.

Er, at least I think 3.5 did

Grubermensch

[reads Refocus] Wow. Just wow. That is one terrible action.

MadMAxJr

Because you know, winning at initiative is important right?

Grubermensch

3:55 PM

D&D style initiative is just fundamentally dumb in my eyes.

Tick-based systems (a la Exalted) are much better, though I will admit they scale less well.

Lord_Gareth

Tick-based systems also take forever

Grubermensch

Not really

MadMAxJr

This is also why I wish Fantasy Flight Games would make a 40k Ork roleplaying game. "Loudest player goes first." "Biggest player gets first share of the loot." "GM is whoever calls it first."

Grubermensch

You gotta have a wheel, of course. If you're trying to bookkeep in your head or just by writing down numbers, you're gonna have a bad time.

Aaron

@MadMAxJr If a player wears Red he gets a +5 to init

Grubermensch

3:58 PM

@Aaron But draws auto aggro from all opponents.

@Lord_Gareth They get bad if you don't bound the speeds of actions in a reasonable way, but that's an implementation problem, not a problem with ticks inherently.

BESW's Spoil-Lair

Lord Gareth's Martini wizard on a lawn chair

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