English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

> brook /brʊk/, v.

Forms: 1 brúcan, 2 bruce(n, 2–3 bruke(n, brukien, 3–6 brouke, 4 brouk, 4–5 browke; also 3–5 broken, 3–6 broke, (4–5 brok), 5–7 brooke, 5– brook; 5–6 Sc. bruk(e(ü), 6 brwk, 6–8 bruik, 7 bruike.

Etymology: OE. brúcan (pa. t. bréac, brucon, pple. ʒebrocen), a Com. Teut. verb, but found in the other langs. with weak conjugation: OFris. brûka, OS. brûcan (MDutch brûken, Dutch bruiken), LG. brûken, OHG. brûhhan (MHG. brûchen, Ger. brauchen), Goth. brukjan :– OTeut. stem *bruk- ‘to make use of, have the enjoyment of, enjoy’ :– Aryan *bhrug-, whence also L. fru-i ( :– frugv-i),…

RegDwigнt

Yeah.

@Robusto perhaps that's a different brook. I am not familiar with any brook. New word to me.

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt Okay, so Nutz has no modern cognates outside German/Dutch, apparently.

RegDwigнt

Ironic.

Cerberus

1:06 AM

Old English did have one.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt Shakespeare: "I better brook the lose of brittle life than those proud titles thou hast won of me." Or something like that. Henry IV, Part 1.

tchrist

> 1. trans. To enjoy the use of, make use of, profit by; to use, enjoy, possess, hold. Obs. except Sc. in some legal phrases, and arch. in literature.
† b. Formerly in asseverations: so (or as) brouke I my chyn, eyes, heid, etc.: so may I (or as I wish to) have the use of my eyes, etc.
† c. to brook a name (well): to bear it appropriately, do credit to it, act consistently with it. Obs.
† 2. To make use of (food); in later usage, to digest, retain, or bear on the stomach.

Cerberus

Yes, all other peoples are slackers.

In Dutch, benutten is "to make use of, to put to use", gebruiken is "to use".

tchrist

@RegDwigнt Only one survived.

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus In German, nutte means prostitute.

tchrist

1:08 AM

> 3. To put up with, bear with, endure, tolerate [a fig. sense of ‘to stomach’ in 2]. Now only in negative or preclusive constructions.

1530 Palsgr. 471/2 ― He can nat brooke me of all men.
1583 Stubbes Anat. Abus. ii. 30 ― They cannot at any hand brooke or digest them that would counsel them to that.
1624 Capt. Smith Virginia iv. 115, ― I would deter such from comming here, that cannot well brooke labour.
1667 Milton P.L. vi. 274 ― Heav’n··Brooks not the works of violence and War.
1752 Young Brothers ii. i, ― Such insults are not brook’d by royal minds.

Kabir101

Hi Everyone, I have a question. I want to know if the following statement is incorrect. 'Could you please confirm, have you called the AT&T benefits center?

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt Cute.

@Kabir101 Sounds good to me.

Robusto

@tchrist Yes, I remember that one now.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto I am confused whether that should serve as an example of brücke. I'm no longer getting with the program myself.

tchrist

@Kabir101 No, that sounds wrong.

RegDwigнt

1:09 AM

Well. Inelegant for sure. But wrong...

tchrist

> Could you please confirm that you have called the AT&T benefits center?

Robusto

@RegDwigнt To bridge (or brook) something is to get across it or get past it.

tchrist

@RegDwigнt Comma,splice,or,something.

RegDwigнt

Comma splices are fine.

Cerberus

@tchrist It's just informal.

RegDwigнt

1:10 AM

Also, there are no commas in speech.

Robusto

My ancestors were bridge-builders, so I know all about this stuff. It's in my genes.

tchrist

But it does not sound good.

RegDwigнt

If it were written, I'd rewrite the hell out of it.

tchrist

It sounds like somebody from India.

RegDwigнt

@tchrist yup. As I said, inelegant. You may choose to be more frank.

Kabir101

1:10 AM

@tchrist: thanks but can you explain 'why' it is wrong?

RegDwigнt

@Robusto I'm just not sure anymore how to parse that quote, then.

@Kabir101 "because it makes you sound like somebody from India" is actually a reason.

KitFox

@Kabir101 It's a comma-splice.

Oh. It's already been said so.

RegDwigнt

Not that there's anything wrong with Indian English, of course. But we have to assume you're asking about Standard English.

KitFox

Ha. Standard English.

RegDwigнt

See, I don't even think it's a comma splice.

tchrist

1:13 AM

> Could you please confirm that you called the service center?

RegDwigнt

For a comma splice, you need to have two separate sentences, no?

The first part is not a sentence.

tchrist

It’s two questions.

Could you please confirm?

Have you called the center?

Kabir101

@tchrist: two questions in one clash. is that what you want to say?

RegDwigнt

Yeah but the first one misses all the crucial information.

It's like asking "have you seen the?"

tchrist

Could you please confirm THAT you blahed.

RegDwigнt

1:14 AM

Yup.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt Hmm, maybe you're right. I do think the verb and the noun have commingled over the centuries, though.

KitFox

@RegDwigнt No, like asking "Have you seen?"

RegDwigнt

Well, I wanted to go with whether.

@KitFox I knew you would say that.

KitFox

I would use whether there.

RegDwigнt

But the point stands.

tchrist

1:15 AM

@RegDwigнt Didn’t I already use whether?

looks up

KitFox

@RegDwigнt Right. Which is why it sounds...the way it does.

RegDwigнt

"Have you seen?" is incomplete as well, and if you connect it into a single sentence with what it is I am supposed to be seeing, it is not a comma splice.

@tchrist I think you used that twice.

tchrist

Apparently.

KitFox

Fine. It's still sounds like a NNS acting imperious and pretending not to.

RegDwigнt

No argument there. That is pretty much an axiom.

Kabir101

1:16 AM

I think that makes sense.

tchrist

> Did you really call the service center, or are you just another joker calling in to tease me about my kine?

Kabir101

lol

Nope

RegDwigнt

Just drop the "can you confirm" nonsense. Cut to the chase.

tchrist

Really.

It sounds like somebody is kowtowing.

I mean that in a literal sense.

RegDwigнt

You want to ask them if they called, then ask them if they called. Add a please if you must, with sugar on top if you dare.

KitFox

1:17 AM

What are they knocking their head on?

tchrist

False politeness false remains.

Wait, did I just put a verb at the end? Heavens!

RegDwigнt

English is a Germanic language. QED.

Kabir101

I think ' have you called the AT&T benefits center' is good enough but adding 'could you please confirm' makes it more polite.

RegDwigнt

Of course German would never put the verb at the end in that one single particular sentence. Oh the irony.

KitFox

@RegDwigнt Right. "Can you please confirm?" sounds like "I expect you didn't, but I will politely ask you in a way that suggests you obviously have been expected to do so and yet I assume you have failed in this trivial task."

tchrist

1:19 AM

> But it has long been said: oft evil will shall evil mar.

KitFox

@Kabir101 It makes it less polite.

tchrist

The garden-pathing of will–shall there is delightful.

RegDwigнt

@Kabir101 it wastes twice as much of their time. Some people do not appreciate that. Life time is a limited thing. Nobody is giving them those seconds back. You want to be polite, be curt.

Kabir101

@KitFox: I think you need to read more books.

tchrist

@RegDwigнt +1238712938712893129381323

goes for popcorn

KitFox

1:21 AM

@Kabir101 I think you need to listen more and speak less.

Kabir101

@KitFox: ok, I will do that.

@RegDwigнt: what if when it comes in writing?

RegDwigнt

@Kabir101 in all honesty, that is excellent advice, and you will do no wrong by following it yourself. You will be surprised to see how few books have anything to do with politeness. Books are not written to be polite to the reader.

KitFox

The act of asking is itself a request for confirmation.

RegDwigнt

@Kabir101 I don't understand the question. It is still wasting twice as much of their time whether spoken or written.

tchrist

@Kabir101 Don’t use all those weasel-words. It annoys your interlocutor. Get to the point. Did you or didn’t you? Yes or no?

RegDwigнt

1:24 AM

As I said, if you want extra politeness, a please goes a long way.

tchrist

It is one of those most annoying things about dealing with the trans-Caucasus cultures, all the weasel-wording.

Don’t beat around the bush.

Don’t insert meaningless formulaic drivel. It sounds craven.

RegDwigнt

Especially on such a mundane occasion.

Kabir101

@RegDwigнt: what if you start chatting with someone from any benefits center and they write you this. I just want to figure it out what is the best way of being polite while making sense too. 'Grammatically' .

tchrist

Asian attempts to be polite fail to connect with European ones.

RegDwigнt

@Kabir101 grammar has nothing at all to do with politeness. They are two completely different things. "I hate you" is exactly as grammatical as "I love you".

13 mins ago, by tchrist

> Could you please confirm that you called the service center?

Here's a grammatical sentence that's also polite.

But I really should be sleeping.

tchrist

1:29 AM

If the honored gentleman might do this unworthy person the courtesy of informing this one of the honored gentleman’s most preferred number at which he might be reached should this unworthy person have any further questions to bother the esteemed gentlemen with, we should be ever so please to record that information here under your account information.

RegDwigнt

I guess it's noon in India, but here it's the darkest night.

tchrist

In other words, what’s your damned phone number?

I deal with this constantly.

It makes me want to hang up on the idiots.

KitFox

Yes.

Very annoying.

RegDwigнt

@tchrist I am somewhat certain there's an acrostichon for cunt in there.

tchrist

@RegDwigнt All country matters are to be transmitted steganographically, not epidemiologically.

RegDwigнt

1:31 AM

But to be completely certain, I'd have to read it in its entirety and who's doing that.

KitFox

Is 'alphanumerically' an understandable description of sort order? Would you know what ordering I meant?

RegDwigнt

I never know where people place the underbar.

Or whether numbers come before letters, for that matter.

tchrist

@KitFox You have asked the wrong question of the right person.

KitFox

OK, if underbars were of no concern.

RegDwigнt

Be prepared for a great many code points.

tchrist

1:32 AM

An alphabetic sort is not what you think it is.

No, I shall restrict myself to RADIX-50.

KitFox

sighs, types it anyway assuming someone will correct her if it's actually important

tchrist

Or maybe ASCII on a good day.

RegDwigнt

@KitFox that is the spirit.

tchrist

This is not sorted properly, merely commonly:

    Little Red Mushrooms
    Little Red Riding Hood
    Little Red Tent
    Little Red, More Blue
    Little, Red Rider

RegDwigнt

I think the operational word in your report is sorting, and everything else will plain get ignored.

tchrist

1:34 AM

It should be this way:

    Little Red, More Blue
    Little Red Mushrooms
    Little, Red Rider
    Little Red Riding Hood
    Little Red Tent

Otherwise you are doing a bloody codepoint sort, and that simply sucks.

KitFox

It is a requirements document, not code.

RegDwigнt

Hah. Then everyone will make of it what they will anyway.

Kabir101

I have another: 'I would request that you call' or 'I would request you to call', which one is the most appropriate?

tchrist

People say "alphanumerically" when they mean "sort by numeric order of the underlying codepoints, even when that makes no sense whatsoFMHever".

KitFox

I don't have any control over whether he uses a codepoint sort or does each one by hand on camelback.

RegDwigнt

1:35 AM

You just can't be precise enough in a requirements document. Unpossible.

tchrist

Specify that it should be a "library" sort then.

KitFox

@Kabir101 What's the rest of the sentence?

tchrist

You are only supposed to sort the letters, not the nonletters.

KitFox

It should be numbers first, then letters.

tchrist

Fine.

RegDwigнt

1:36 AM

They probably won't even take "sorting" seriously, and argue a great deal how a random order is a kind or sorting.

KitFox

Or letters first, then numbers.

Kabir101

Lets say, the AT&T benefits center the rest.

KitFox

But in any case, the fact that some strains begin with numbers needs to be acknowledged.

tchrist

The point is, don’t consider anything that isn’t a number or a letter.

KitFox

@tchrist It won't matter. It will only ever be letters or numbers.

tchrist

1:37 AM

Then specify that case does not matter.

Is this a phonebook sort?

KitFox

I doubt the periods, dashes, braces, &c will be gotten to. And case of course matters.

tchrist

Why does case matter?

Alraxite

Another nominee!

RegDwigнt

Don't they have, like, a couple special terms by this point? Like big-endian/low-endian. Just for letters-first/numbers-first.

tchrist

It does not matter in an alphabetic sort.

KitFox

1:38 AM

@Kabir101 I would recommend calling the benefits center.

tchrist

@KitFox Would you? :)

KitFox

@tchrist It matters in the strain name. A ridiculous nomenclature thing.

Kabir101

@KitFox: you been a great help.

tchrist

@KitFox I see.

RegDwigнt

OMG Yoichi-san is running.

KitFox

1:39 AM

What!?

tchrist

Are you on drugs?

This is a made-you-look thing, right?

RegDwigнt

I am literally wishing for drugs right now.

KitFox

omgomgomgomg

I feel faint.

I think I might actually swoon.

RegDwigнt

I long fainted, came back, fainted some more.

tchrist

writes down a script for Reg, and sends it straight from Colorado’s finest

RegDwigнt

1:40 AM

Oh yeah.

tchrist

Er, that’s the other kind of script.

RegDwigнt

Will do.

I could smoke a beer right now.

But I will really have to go to bed instead.

tchrist

℞: Take two, they’re small.

KitFox

I feel flustered.

tchrist

I am stupefied.

KitFox

1:41 AM

flails hands like crazy person

Jasper Loy

@RegDwigнt ZOMG

tchrist

Stunned into stultiloquence.

And staggerment.

KitFox

@JasperLoy That is a very appropriate reaction.

zOMG, indeed.

tchrist

This is . . . Biblical.

I can think of no stronger word.

RegDwigнt

Arnold.

KitFox

1:45 AM

Yoichi Oishi and phenry and The Evan Carroll™.

Our new moderators.

RegDwigнt

Wait The Evan is back?

KitFox

Not yet.

Alraxite

So are you guys, like, for-Yoichi or not-for-Yoichi or what.

RegDwigнt

Oh.

@Alraxite the votes are secret for a reason.

KitFox

A collection of stunners, all for different reasons.

tchrist

1:46 AM

Ab omni malo, libera nos Domine.

Ab omni peccato, libera nos Domine.

Jasper Loy

Om Mani Padme Hum.

tchrist

Ab ira tua, libera nos Domine.

A subitanea, et improvisa morte, libera nos Domine.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Oh, dear.

RegDwigнt

I mean, I could say "Alraxite should run for mod", but then you'll immediately lose the support of all the people who desperately hate me.

KitFox

I'm just really surprised.

tchrist

1:47 AM

Ab insidiis diaboli, libera nos Domine.

Ab ira, et odio, et omni mala voluntate, libera nos Domine.

RegDwigнt

Tchrist, those are not stronger words, them's just Latin.

Jasper Loy

Eine kleine Nachtmusik.

RegDwigнt

Smoke et mirrores.

tchrist

A fulgure, et tempestate, libera nos Domine.

Alraxite

@RegDwigнt Oh, thank you. Maybe I should consider.

KitFox

1:48 AM

Latin vocalization is required for invocation.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@KitFox and honored, apparently.

KitFox

For certain things.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Well, what else am I supposed to say?

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@KitFox shrug

KitFox

I can't offer him tea.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@tchrist could.

KitFox

1:49 AM

He's so polite.

RegDwigнt

I think this is just a conspiracy by Sarah Palin to get @Rob to vote.

KitFox

Or to run for mod.

tchrist

Nihil proficiate inimicus in nobis.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@KitFox what sort of lagniappe would you offer him?

RegDwigнt

@KitFox now you're just crazy. No conspiracy is that strong.

tchrist

1:50 AM

Domine exaudi orationem meam.

KitFox

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Um. Butter cookies.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@KitFox Without tea?

RegDwigнt

To get Rob to run for mod, Sarah Palin would have to run herself with no other candidates at all.

Though even so he'd probably run away instead.

KitFox

with no other clothes at all.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 I don't know!

tchrist

Nobody else runs Sarah like Sarah runs Sarah.

RegDwigнt

1:52 AM

There's no business like no business.

Jasper Loy

I should try to get 90 points in the next 6 days to have 300 to run as well, lol.

RegDwigнt

Wait what, how the hell are you below 300 again?

tchrist

Jasper, that is so offensive I should flag thee for it!

Or maybe it was better the other way.

Jasper Loy

The movie 300 is good.

RegDwigнt

I should change my name and gravatar, then run for mod.

tchrist

1:53 AM

For beefcake, nada más.

KitFox

@RegDwigнt He's not been on EL&U much since the last two times he's been back.

@RegDwigнt Did you see Wai put himself up for candidate?

RegDwigнt

@KitFox see, I missed a time, then.

KitFox

He's been here, but mostly reps on Maths.

RegDwigнt

@KitFox okay, this is gonna be a made-me-look thing.

KitFox

Well, he deleted it.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

1:54 AM

One more candidate and we have ourselves a nomination phase.

KitFox

So as not to confuse people.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Yes! You should run.

Jasper Loy

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 You mean the primary?

KitFox

Great idea.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

runs

@JasperLoy I do.

drinks

Jasper Loy

drinks water

KitFox

1:55 AM

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 No, no. That way. points at nomination board

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@KitFox that wouldn't work out so well, I bet.

KitFox

What's the harm? You probably won't win, so might as well drag it out as long as possible.

RegDwigнt

Haha.

KitFox

Seems perfectly reasonable reasoning to me.

RegDwigнt

Remember: the last candidate that probably didn't win was Kit.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

1:56 AM

You can't win if you don't run.

KitFox

Oh. Well. There was that.

It was rather an accident.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

So, is Sim okay?

BTW

KitFox

OK in what sense?

RegDwigнt

I've no idea who's okay and who's where at all. But all mods keep visiting at least from time to time.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

The Simple Minds sense.

Alive and Kicking.

KitFox

1:57 AM

Yes.

@RegDwigнt I'm here! I'm OK!

RegDwigнt

Even Kosmo visited but a week ago.

@KitFox and I'm not here! I'm in bed!

Mr Shiny takes over from here.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

you always leave just when I arrive

Alraxite

I wonder what'll happen if a moderator seriously runs though.

RegDwigнt

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 hey just because we're the same person doesn't mean you have to blow our cover.

Alraxite

So, has anyone brought the news on Meta that the system allows moderators to get more diamonds by nominating themselves?

RegDwigнt

1:59 AM

Night all!

KitFox

Night!

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…