The Whiteboard

ratchet freak

4:00 PM

when stepping over the string you can stop at the = and then emit the $my_int token with a pointer to the location

SuperCookie47

well in c++, i doubt someone will ever declare a variable "Person", when there is a class "Person", anyway

ratchet freak

then step one further and see it is only a single = and emit the OP_ASSIGN

user41796

@SuperCookie47 doesn't stop people from trying....

SuperCookie47

but all this modification disrupts my true position within the code, and i can't notify the user of parser errors

like char pos. and line

ratchet freak

see it starts with a number and start parsing the number until you hit the non number ';' and emit the number token

amon

4:01 PM

As an exercise before attempting to build a full language, I'd recommend building a simple calculator that can handle input like "1 + 2 * 3" and correctly output "7". That's complex enough to learn about lexing, parsing, and precedence. Then gradually extend that language, e.g. to handle variables.

user55340

@SuperCookie47 you have no idea the joys back in the C days of #including another thing and suddenly finding type collisions with something you already wrote... in the days before refactoring tools.

ratchet freak

I keep saying forget transforming the string

SuperCookie47

"then step one further and see it is only a single = and emit the OP_ASSIGN"

ratchet freak

instead emit a TOKEN[]

user41796

@MichaelT oh! oh! I remember those days! THEY WERE AWESOME!!!

SuperCookie47

4:02 PM

don't you mean replace here?

user55340

@GlenH7 you got to paranoidly namespacing all your struts and statics to try to avoid any collisions.

SuperCookie47

and in the case where i might have to look ahead and see if the declaration matches a class definition or struct etc.?

user55340

@SuperCookie47 btw, amon's suggestion is really good.

ratchet freak

you are not outputting a string but a token stream

that's why I say the type and variable names are bot identifiers

SuperCookie47

@MichaelT amon?

Jimmy Hoffa

4:03 PM

@GlenH7 this is a problem with distributed services that don't have centralized configurability. Two of the things you should immediately be asking as soon as you know you're going to break your system up across multiple processes: How will you centralize the configuration, how will you centralize the logging.

ratchet freak

2 mins ago, by amon

As an exercise before attempting to build a full language, I'd recommend building a simple calculator that can handle input like "1 + 2 * 3" and correctly output "7". That's complex enough to learn about lexing, parsing, and precedence. Then gradually extend that language, e.g. to handle variables.

SuperCookie47

but what i am doing is simple converting a string into tokens

user55340

That does too - just starting from a much simpler place where the concepts can be better understood.

user41796

@JimmyHoffa agreed!

SuperCookie47

like 9 + 10 --- > [number:=9] [operator:=+] [number:=10].

ratchet freak

4:05 PM

yep and being able to ensure precedence between them

SuperCookie47

surely this is basic string man.

Jimmy Hoffa

@SuperCookie47 read this to get a slight grasp on one parsing approach, I don't know what you're doing so it may not be the correct approach to use but it's worth knowing this approach is possible as it may be the right one for you.

ratchet freak

start with the basics

walk before running young padawan

SuperCookie47

lexical will actually follow this

user55340

@SuperCookie47 I hope that "[number:=9] [operator:=+] [number:=10]" isn't intended to be a string to pass to your parser.

user55340

4:06 PM

And if it is, your previous concerns about doing programfile.toCharacterArray() being memory consuming are going to be very misplaced.

SuperCookie47

it will be my parser that all of this is encompassed by xD

Robert Harvey

Speaking of parsers...

ratchet freak

I've had to parse user supplied strings with precedence and brackets and it took me a few days to get all the tweaks out

SuperCookie47

string > them tokens > lexical analysis 2 (after some to verifiy structures before tokenizing) > ast > code gen.

Robert Harvey

I have heard that C is a good first language to write a compiler for, because it is (relatively) simple. But the C99 specification is nearly 600 pages long. It's longer than the C# specification. What gives?

ratchet freak

4:07 PM

I used a slightly modified shunting yard

too many exceptions

Jimmy Hoffa

@SuperCookie47 whatever you do, DO NOT WRITE THE NCUBE

N^3 parsing

Jan 2 at 20:03, 3 minutes total – 15 messages, 3 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked 20 secs ago by Jimmy Hoffa

user55340

C is slightly awkward because of the lack of forward declarations. I'd go for Pascal instead.

user41796

@RobertHarvey I would imagine that advice was given pre-C89 (is that the one prior to C99?). And like all sage advice, it's never been updated to changes surrounding it.

user41796

K&R C is pretty tight.

SuperCookie47

@JimmyHoffa .....

user55340

4:09 PM

I'll agree with K&R C being something thats not too bad. More modern C is a nightmare.

Jimmy Hoffa

@SuperCookie47 I'm actually not joking on this point. Humor just dulls the pain of the truth of the NCube...

SuperCookie47

NCube??

user55340

The language I wrote in college was a pascal like language.

Jimmy Hoffa

@SuperCookie47 read the bookmark.

SuperCookie47

would my language be... n^3 ...

:O

Jimmy Hoffa

4:12 PM

@SuperCookie47 only if you write it all in one function parsing by way of ifs, elses, and switches. At first you'll think it seems simple and nice and good, eventually you'll feel like you're being burned to death by the ghost of George Boole

SuperCookie47

i'm not sure i follow the whole thing

ratchet freak

you will want to modularize it

SuperCookie47

ahaha

this was the way i was going to do

before recognising i might need to look ahead while parsing char by char

it

etc.

Jimmy Hoffa

@SuperCookie47 it's the way everyone thinks they're going to do. Like I said, DON'T WRITE THE NCUBE

user55340

You'll end up with something like I had to maintain at my former employer... 600 if else if statements.

user55340

4:13 PM

in one function.

user55340

that was ~3000 lines long.

SuperCookie47

yeah,it would be nested to absolute SHIT

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT 2439 to be exact

user55340

in a file that was ~15000 lines long.

Jimmy Hoffa

Jan 2 at 20:07, by Ampt

@JimmyHoffa Always 2439 lines? You should write a white paper about that.. that's a serious correlation

@SuperCookie47 you wanna know the trick to avoiding nesting your control flow logic in parsers? Recursive data types. The nesting is encoded in the type system then.

ratchet freak

4:15 PM

that parser I mentioned earlier was in java and is in a single .java file at 660 lines

Jimmy Hoffa

BOOM

SuperCookie47

recursive data types

Jimmy Hoffa

@ratchetfreak 2439; ftfy.

SuperCookie47

?

Oded

Reminds me of the +7k line stored procedures I encountered

ratchet freak

4:16 PM

it was much simpler that that

Jimmy Hoffa

@Oded ...and on that day, the sun didn't set, it just kind of hung there, aghast at the universe it lived in...

ratchet freak

@JimmyHoffa I only needed to parse conditionals

Oded

@JimmyHoffa I don't actually recall what it did. Not that I delved into it. Strangely, I opted to fix the issue in the codebase (which was slightly... um... less worse...)

SuperCookie47

every time i learn more about compilers/compiler-writing, the more my short-lived enthusiasm is thwarted by learned programmers and people speaking from experience

is it really worth it, for fun?

user55340

It can be...

user55340

4:19 PM

but you only write the parser once.

ratchet freak

I had some non fun moments writing that parser

Jimmy Hoffa

@SuperCookie47 data Tree a = Branch a (Tree a) | Leaf

user55340

> The thing to do on Mt. Fuji is, of course, to climb it. As the Japanese say, a wise man climbs Fuji once, and a fool twice, but the true wisdom of this phrase is usually only learned the hard way.

ratchet freak

and that was with a Dijkstra approved algorithm

SuperCookie47

thanks for help, all.

user41796

4:20 PM

@Oded I'd go through a helluva lot more effort fixing it in the code before I would ever consider touching a monstrosity like that stored proc.

user55340

@SuperCookie47 consider that you're attempting to climb Mt. Fuju without making sure you know how to handle the foothills.

Jimmy Hoffa

@SuperCookie47 notice in my example, a Branch has an a and another Tree... the type holds a value of it's own type (which holds a value of it's own type (which holds a value of it's own type (which holds a value of it's own type (which holds a value of it's own type (which holds a value of it's own type (which holds a value of it's own type

SuperCookie47

going to contemplate, and weigh out stress and hair loss and successful programming language with which i could have endless fun little experiments

:/

user55340

Amon's suggestion was the foothills.

Robert Harvey

Has anyone here actually tried Compilr? Seems like they want money upfront for the thing. But it looks more robust than the fiddler type websites.

compilr.com

SuperCookie47

4:21 PM

bye

user55340

Most of us have written a parser from scratch once - and know whats going on and the difficulty involved in doing it... and appreciate the beauty of the tools that do it for us the next time we need to do it.

user41796

> put on hold as off-topic by Oded♦ 30 secs ago

SuperCookie47

dobry wieczor

user41796

^^^ Impressive timing there

SuperCookie47

me?

ratchet freak

4:21 PM

that was at oded

SuperCookie47

lol

k

bye

user55340

@SuperCookie47 we're just amazed at Oded's supernatural question closing speed.

SuperCookie47

indeeed

ratchet freak

he has to be cheating somehow

SuperCookie47

xD

user41796

4:22 PM

@RobertHarvey comparisons to fiddler have me interested now

Oded

@GlenH7 indeed. Though that codebase/database combo was special. A table that contained information about how to call other SPs. Stored as XML, naturally.

SuperCookie47

or in the matrix

...

Robert Harvey

@GlenH7 It actually looks sort of like a real IDE.

That guy's question about online IDE's got me thinking about it.

SuperCookie47

btw, i thought of something yesterday.

user41796

@Oded Oh! that day. That day when the sun actually stood still and refused to start the dawn of a new day.

SuperCookie47

4:23 PM

something that mademethink

Jimmy Hoffa

@Oded Some people shouldn't be allowed near an RDBMS. It almost makes me glad Mongo and others are out there now to let those people screw up their implementations in techs that result in them still knowing they don't know anything about RDBMS.

user41796

@SuperCookie47 Danger! Will Robinson!

SuperCookie47

what do you guys think is the most complex/long code ever written

user41796

@SuperCookie47 parsers

SuperCookie47

i actually doubt that

Jimmy Hoffa

4:24 PM

@SuperCookie47 don't.

SuperCookie47

i do and shall

: |

user55340

Something that should have been written in a Business Rules Engine but was done from scratch instead.

Robert Harvey

@SuperCookie47 Asked on every yahoo-answers-like site in existence

Jimmy Hoffa

some day you'll have a job where you have to write a parser, you'll learn.

@MichaelT result? NCube.

SuperCookie47

you should've linked lmgtfy

xD

Oded

4:25 PM

@JimmyHoffa the result of an outsourced project being outsourced by the outsource company to about 5 other companies. None of which communicated with each other.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Oded but it saved money right? Right. Right. One ought not tarry on such thoughts...

user55340

(I wonder how big HealthCare.gov would have been if they used a good BRE... I bet the original people were paid per line)

SuperCookie47

as a believer in God, i don't see how someone could think that the human genome/DNA could evolve by itself, without intelligence.

quapka

@SuperCookie47 As I got the impression from my friends. Then it would be something written in Java;)

SuperCookie47

it being a language anol

Oded

4:26 PM

@JimmyHoffa I think the multi million pound replacement was supposed to do that.

user41796

@RobertHarvey - Compilr seems a bit behind the curve on what compilers it's using. No mention of clang. Nor of .NET 4.5

user41796

Lacking JDK8 is perhaps forgivable

Jimmy Hoffa

@Oded Ah yes, the ol' spend-more-save-more approach to RoI analysis....

user55340

@Oded Thats a lot of server power... oh wait... measuring power in pounds sterling not pounds weight.

Oded

Yeah, wasn't thinking big iron there, @MichaelT

user41796

4:36 PM

@MichaelT IBM z10 mainframes weigh in at about 2000 lbs. So that would be one heck of a data center.

user41796

Not sure how much the disk arrays & tape libraries weigh though

user55340

Just need to convert all the world to dollars so we know what everyone is talking about. ;-)

amon

All the World: Agreed, as long as we'll use SI units for anything non-monetary

Jimmy Hoffa

tips.x-tensive.com/2009/05/fast-expression-compilation.html <-- whoa. Expression rewriter that pulls consts into parameters removing the dynamicism between different expressions so you can cache the compiled version. Awesome. (now where's the source code... dude's link is ded...)

@amon ...why don't we use SI units for money? Dime? pfft, Dec. Dollar? Cent. Ten dollar? Kilo.

user55340

@amon at least its not still 12 pence to a shilling and 20 shillings to the pound anymore there...

user55340

4:48 PM

(side bit, when I started at Netapp, stock was still traded in fractional powers of 2)

Robert Harvey

@GlenH7 I could live with that, if the tool were robust.

user41796

@RobertHarvey There are a few others out there too. But I think they take a narrower focus on target | allowed languages

Robert Harvey

Most of them are glorified text editors with a COMPILER.EXE and console output.

I don't see anyone seriously embarking on, say, a WPF application in an online window of any kind.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey just use FPComplete

Robert Harvey

Oh, sure. As if I didn't already have enough punishment learning Haskell.

Jimmy Hoffa

4:52 PM

@RobertHarvey Are you learning Haskell?

Robert Harvey

I glanced through "Learn You a Haskell" a couple of days ago. Time is an issue right now.

user41796

@RobertHarvey That kind of echoes the sentiment of the demos I have seen. It's cool / interesting tech, but it also introduces a number of potential pain points that complicate the dev / test / debug cycle.

Jimmy Hoffa

If so then I'm genuinely serious, use FPComplete for jiggering your Haskell up, makes it easy because you don't have to install libraries or anything. You can write entire Yesod websites in FPComplete and hit go and it will host it for you etc.

Robert Harvey

Really.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey Probably not the free edition, free edition likely just gives you basic console app functionality. I haven't looked too closely since they exited beta and they've been changing the features per tier model etc. Community edition might even allow Yesod, not certain. Either way they have all the libraries on their side for anything you need (generally - they control the ones they choose and versions etc to ensure they only expose the most polished ones through their IDE/Compilation)

You could pay $10 for one month and wing up your Yesod website within that month from any machine anywhere just through the web browser whenever you do have the spare time. That said, like you said - time is an issue and you probably won't be learning enough Haskell to make it worth the $10 anytime soon.

> FP Haskell Center™

The FP Haskell Center IDE includes a Haskell compiler and a continually updated set of vetted, tested and supported libraries and code templates. There is no need to run Cabal or other installers. Key features include; continuous compile with real-time type information and error messaging, Haddocks documentation and Hoogle search, syntax highlighting, Git/GitHub integration, team management tools, remote version control, and an integrated web deployment platform. Subscriptions include continuous refresh releases on new features, updates, bug fixes and free community s…

> FP Application Server™

FP Haskell Application Server deploys and runs Haskell applications directly in the cloud with no additional effort. It is flexible and cost effective. A free shared instance for testing is included with every account. Larger and dedicated instances are available for active project deployments at a reasonable monthly charge. FP Application Server is architecture-independent, allowing for cloud deployment today and enterprises server deployment in the near future.

Robert Harvey

4:57 PM

OK, bookmarked.

Words like "wrong," "better," "good," "cleaner" and "constructive" are all entirely subjective, and essentially make your question unanswerable. See also meta.stackexchange.com/a/142354 — Robert Harvey 1 min ago

user55340

5:08 PM

@ratchetfreak I'd upvote your question and answer if you write a good 'here's a set of points, how do I count the squares' self answered one.

Zeroth

5:22 PM

...oh god, someone merged flappy bird and 2048 together

ratchet freak

that's been there a while...

Oded

@Zeroth You mean Flappy2048?

Zeroth

yes

Robert Harvey

6:15 PM

Every time I hear about some Flappy Bird variant, I am reminded how a Korean programmer killed it because they felt too guilty about earning $50K per month.

Sheesh. I'm pretty sure some charity could have used that money for something noble.

Thomas Owens

@RobertHarvey I'd gladly have taken the $50k/month off his hands.

Robert Harvey

Yeah, me too. :)

Thomas Owens

I could have paid off my car and student loans and had vacation money in 2 months.

All without touching my real job's paycheck.

user41796

Oh, dear. The only thing worse than a plane crash is one that happens twice. — Robert Harvey 18 mins ago

Thomas Owens

@GlenH7 Too soon?

user41796

6:18 PM

@ThomasOwens To delete that question? Probably not too soon. :-)

Thomas Owens

No. Plane crash comments.

Robert Harvey

Let it accumulate a few more downvotes first. >:)

ratchet freak

@ThomasOwens flag for mod attention...

user41796

@ThomasOwens Nah, that one made me laugh. But the context is important

Thomas Owens

Suspend for distasteful comments. 30 days.

user41796

6:20 PM

The comment thread in this one left me scratching my head. programmers.stackexchange.com/q/236884/53019

user41796

@ThomasOwens fine, fine. I'll see y'all in a month then.

Thomas Owens

@GlenH7 Not you. @RobertHarvey.

Robert Harvey

OoO

Zeroth

Not korean, he was Vietnamese. He wasn't guilty over the money - guilty over people becoming obsessed with a silly little unimportant game. People were sending him death threats because they were obsessed with the game.

user41796

@ThomasOwens I knew, but I wanted to steal the limelight. And besides, wouldn't the retaliatory suspension battle between you two become epic?

Zeroth

6:22 PM

which comment thread

?

Robert Harvey

[winces at constant face-punch sound in Flappy 2048]

user55340

Maybe if he talked about capsized ferries... the plan crash is rather out of the media. And that said, theres always a plane crash within the recent history thats in the media.

user55340

@Zeroth I can dig through my old posts... I linked something about the story of the flappy bird creator here a bit ago.

Zeroth

Oh I was keeping up on the story on Ars Technica :P

user41796

@Zeroth We prefer to get all of our good stories from here. :-)

Zeroth

6:25 PM

:P

Like I'd trust any of you!

user55340

rollingstone.com/culture/news/…

Robert Harvey

@Zeroth The death threats happened after he withdrew the game. Well, I heard a very different story. MORAL: people's hideous comments on Twitter or under YouTube videos are meaningless drivel.

Zeroth

Sure, but doesn't mean people aren't affected by them.

Robert Harvey

Only if they read them.

user41796

@RobertHarvey Apparently Crockford picked up death threats over JSON from the XML crowd.

Zeroth

6:27 PM

I was stalked and sent death threats because a guy thought I'd wrecked his relationship, when he'd done it all himself.

Still affected, even though rational brain knew he'd never come and hurt me.

Emotions are on a deeper level than reason and logic.

Robert Harvey

All the more reason to unplug. The veracity of a person's communications is in inverse proportion to the degree they use Twitter to express them.

user55340

@Zeroth but I love xml man... you don't know how deep my love for xsd files goes. Jason will never tear me away from from xml. Never... oh wait... Jason isn't JSON? Sorry...

Zeroth

Yes, but that's letting someone bully you off of a platform - sometimes its better to stay, to spite the harassers and bullies. To flip them a metaphorical finger.

I don't like solutions that tell victims to not have a life. I want solutions where bullies and harassers are punished.

Robert Harvey

@MichaelT That's a good article. Just shows you how distorted the truth can become in the media, because that's not the story I read at all.

user55340

@RobertHarvey Its the one that gets the closest to the author and his story. Sensationalism sells... and it can be hard to find the real story.

Robert Harvey

6:35 PM

What a goat fuck.

user55340

Tangent "the real story" is a good but messed up SF book.

user55340

The Real Story

The Real Story (or officially The Gap into Conflict: The Real Story) is the first book of The Gap Cycle by Stephen R. Donaldson, a science fiction series. Synopsis An ugly and evil space pirate walks into a bar with beautiful woman—a former police woman who (everyone knows) he has captured, enslaved, and brainwashed. Everyone is terrified of even looking at them, for fear of being murdered. A dashing young swashbuckler confronts him, and rescues the woman. That, and the background of the intergalactic society in which they live, is what the first chapter is about. The rest of the boo...

Robert Harvey

Heh. He still makes tens of thousands of dollars a month from people who got the app before he removed it from the Apple store. That was probably a stroke of genius; remove it before the market becomes saturated with it, and it becomes priceless, because you've made it a rarity.

ratchet freak

I heard he removed it because big marketers were trying to buy it and exploit it

Robert Harvey

The Rolling Stone story seems believable. It's probably the most accurate, given that they actually interviewed the guy and read the messages he was getting from people. Accusations of plagiarism, death threats, "my son won't do homework anymore because he's playing your game... you've ruined his life!" Bleaugh.

user55340

6:40 PM

> As news hit of how much money Nguyen was making, his face appeared in the Vietnamese papers and on TV, which was how his mom and dad first learned their son had made the game. The local paparazzi soon besieged his parents' house, and he couldn't go out unnoticed. While this might seem a small price to pay for such fame and fortune, for Nguyen the attention felt suffocating. "It is something I never want," he tweeted. "Please give me peace."

But the hardest thing of all, he says, was something else entirely. He hands me his iPhone so that I can scroll through some messages he's saved. One…

Robert Harvey

Some truth is stranger than fiction. Figuring out how people tick is the strangest truth.

In other news, people actually click on ads in free games?

enderland

@RobertHarvey people actually click ads... anywhere?

ratchet freak

payment per viewed add most likely

Robert Harvey

Who is dumb enough to pay for impressions anymore? Google ads on web pages are pay-per-click; I assume that's how they also work on phones.

ratchet freak

sometime brand awareness is all they need

and it is much cheaper to sell per view than per click

Robert Harvey

6:46 PM

The advertising industry must survive on the tiny, tiny minority of people who actually respond to an ad. In my entire life, I can remember ever taking direct action on an ad once, maybe twice.

It's so inefficient. All those ads, just wasted noise 99 percent of the time.

Zeroth

Its about brain presence - they want you to think of them next time.

user55340

@RobertHarvey the repetition of something that you don't pay attention to does help.

Zeroth

(Also, Robert, its a fallacy of self to assume everyone else behaves like you do. )

Robert Harvey

I'd like to think I'm that unique, but no, I don't think so.

user55340

There was an article on As It Happens recently that explored this in music and advertising.

2

user55340

6:50 PM

aeon.co/magazine/altered-states/why-we-love-repetition-in-music

user55340

thats the bit on the music aspect of it.

user55340

But the thing is, the more you see something the more likely you are to rate it favorably - especially if you don't pay attention to it.

user55340

So even just having the eyeball seeing (but not really paying attention to) the advertisement at the bottom of the screen, you are more likely to rate that product or brand favorably later.

user55340

even without the click.

Zeroth

Advertisers are very good about statistics. They do what works. "We did this campaign and tracked 20% more of the target market buying stuff during this time period or coming from this page."

user55340

6:56 PM

Then you get the crazy A/B testing that google and amazon do with the shear volume of their traffic.

Zeroth

Yep.

But that's the problem: statistically, advertising is not as effective as it used to be, overall.

We have better tools, better habits and practices to, as some would say, "keep our minds clean".

ratchet freak

and addblock

user55340

and there's also the saturation... and increased cynicism of brands and products.

ratchet freak

and some sites are just flooded with adds

Zeroth

Yep.

Sites that get flooded with ads lose eyeballs.

ratchet freak

6:59 PM

look at ryanairs page:

Zeroth

I ignored 90% of that page...

also

ratchet freak

the interesting part is indeed 10% of the real estate

Zeroth

why is a site I'm spending money at advertising at me?

ratchet freak

aren't all?

most of those adds look to be for rental cars and hotels

Zeroth

Not really.

Godaddy and ryanair do so.

westjet doesn't

Robert Harvey

7:02 PM

Ryan Air is the Zippy the Clown of airlines.

Zeroth

west jet is the closest ryan air comparison over here in North America

Robert Harvey

They actually play a fanfare over the loudspeakers when they land. "doot do do dooooooooooooo - Another on-time flight, from Ryan Air!"

ratchet freak

oh god...

Robert Harvey

Those garish colors on their web page? That's the color scheme of the interior of their aircraft. Makes my eyes bleed.

Zeroth

augh

okay, to go off topic, from the head of ASAN:

"FDA official just finished discussing whether or not autistic people feel pain. Apparently, the research literature is mixed on this point? O_o"

Robert Harvey

7:04 PM

ratchet freak

and they take away all things sharp so you can't poke your own eyes out

are those adds on the overhead compartements?

Robert Harvey

Click on the picture, and see it in all it's high-definition glory.

ratchet freak

jesus there is a reason most planes use blue colors

yellow is not calm promoting, proven science that

Robert Harvey

For setting the mood, Virgin Atlantic is awesome.

user55340

But you won't see it because you'll just look away from all the advertisements.

Stack Exchange

7:08 PM

Blog - Stack Exchange: Podcast #57 – We Just Saw This On Florp

Abby T. Miller on April 24, 2014

Welcome to Stack Exchange Podcast #57, recorded Friday April 11, 2014 with your hosts Jay Hanlon, David Fullerton, and Joel Spolsky. Today’s podcast is brought to you by the Heartbleed bug.

We have lots to talk about (which makes Joel scared), starting with Community Milestones (after we discuss 2048 strategy, that is)!

Expats is newly in public beta. It’s a site for people that are dealing with the bureaucratic messes involved in living outside your home country. Check out their top-voted questions. Can I lose my US citizenship for accepting employment within a foreign government? …

user55340

@RobertHarvey you made me start hunting for the google jet's interior.

user55340

Which reminds me of the Enterprise's interior.

user55340

(and today in Eric stalking...) - just nice to see that he's active here.

user41796

7:16 PM

@MichaelT We should introduce him to therapy through voting to delete.

user55340

@GlenH7 he's there already.

user55340

Apr 16 at 19:48, by MichaelT

(btw, Eric Lippert did three delete votes yesterday - I noticed because I was the third vote on each)

user41796

Delete vote therapy + Pandora nailing it with their Dubstep station is a good mix in my book.

Robert Harvey

I'm a Skrillex fan.

user41796

@RobertHarvey Ditto. His new album (recipes?) is pretty good too

Robert Harvey

7:26 PM

There are probably not too many people over the age of 50 who like Skrillex.

user41796

yeah, probably not. There's an evolution of sound from disco into trance into electronica into EDM, but a lot don't see that progression.

ratchet freak

they just hear noise

user41796

And you can't ignore the influence of hip-hop on all of those genres

ratchet freak

you can't ignore the influence of marketing on any music

the songs you get to hear on the radio are selected by a small panel of "experts"

user41796

@ratchetfreak once I really started listening, I could tell that what drove the difference in quality was the mathematical signatures behind the music.

user55340

7:30 PM

(@GlenH7 is going to be the next Trent Reznor? he studied computer engineering too...)

user41796

regrettably no. I have long wanted to experiment and play with making music but it's always fallen below the cut line.

user55340

on the '3d model copying' - there was a bit about someone releasing their model for an object to be 3d printed to some level of creative commons and then getting upset about a 3d printer maker printing it and having it on a table at a trade show.

user55340

(not sure if it was a creative commons, or gnu document or similar)

user41796

@MichaelT Yeah, I don't get that. Why did you release it as CC if you didn't want others using it?!

user55340

I see a fair bit of cognitive dissonance with many of the 'everything open source, ideas are free' crowd that don't realize that its the copyright that protects their viral license.

user55340

7:39 PM

The worst thing that could happen to the GPL is for copyright on software to be struck down.

user15026

@MichaelT GPL?

user55340

Gnu Public License

user55340

Actually General Public License

user55340

GNU General Public License

The GNU General Public License (GNU GPL or GPL) is the most widely used free software license, which guarantees end users (individuals, organizations, companies) the freedoms to use, study, share (copy), and modify the software. Software that allows these rights is called free software and if the software is copyleft ensures those are retained. The GPL demands both. The license was originally written by Richard Stallman of the Free Software Foundation (FSF) for the GNU project. In other words, the GPL grants the recipients of a computer program the rights of the Free Software Definition...

user55340

You can use this code in your project, but doing so you have to release your project under the same license as this project which includes releasing the code to any who you have distributed it to.

user15026

7:42 PM

@MichaelT Makes sense.

user55340

Yep. But note there is nothing in there saying that "you can't use this for commercial (military, etc...) purposes" - because that would be restricting what you can do with the code.

user15026

@MichaelT which goes, if I understand this right, against the whole purpose of the license.

Braiam

do you guys allow software licensing questions?

user41796

@Braiam depends upon the question

user41796

"what license should I use?" <--- No

user41796

7:46 PM

"How does this aspect of the GPL play out in this type of code ..." <--- generally yes

Braiam

take a pick stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/…

Thomas Owens

@Braiam A lot of those questions were asked either before Programmers existed or in the NPR days.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT o I just accidentally stumbled across anotherchat feature (maybe chat, maybe chrome, maybe SE?) click and drag a link into the chat box - pops the full non-shortened URL into the textarea.

Thomas Owens

Stack Overflow was a little more flexible in the types of questions they accepted, as long as they were about developing software, back in its early days, until Programmers became more well defined.

user55340

@JimmyHoffa chrome/webkit feature.

Jimmy Hoffa

7:48 PM

@ThomasOwens incorrect conjugation.

@MichaelT ah. makes sense.

user55340

I remeber firefox on X11 would do a 'goto site' if a url was in the clipboard and you did a middle click in the window.

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa Huh?

I don't see an error.

user41796

@ThomasOwens become vs. became. past tense.

user55340

"as programmers has become" - ongoing.

Thomas Owens

Fixed.

I think.

user41796

7:50 PM

yep

Braiam

nope

user55340

maybe

Thomas Owens

I only minored in technical writing. It's not important that I use English.

Braiam

it is

user55340

@AshleyNunn Yep. But the key part to this is that the right to restrict how derivative works are used is part of the guarntee of the copyright. If copyright was struck down on code (not gonna happen, but those 'information wants to be free types' keep asking for it) it would mean that the GPL would lose all its teeth and the big companies could snarf it all up

user55340

7:52 PM

and use it, without releasing the code back to the general populace.

Thomas Owens

I thought if you had a method method(Parent x) and method(ChildOfParent x) in a class and a variable Parent x = new ChildOfParent(), if you called method(x), you'd call method(ChildOfParent x).

Apparently that's not the case?

user15026

@MichaelT Yuck.

user55340

@AshleyNunn Yep. Which is the bit that I'm amused/saddened by that they can't reconcile - that if they get their dream of 'no copyrights on software' then it would also be 'anything you contribute will go into big companies and distributed with no way to force them to release their enhancements'

Thomas Owens

Hm. The most specific method is the one that is supposed to be chosen, per JLS.

user55340

Side bit for writers - the GFDL for documentation:

user55340

7:57 PM

GNU Free Documentation License

The GNU Free Documentation License (GNU FDL or simply GFDL) is a copyleft license for free documentation, designed by the Free Software Foundation (FSF) for the GNU Project. It is similar to the GNU General Public License, giving readers the rights to copy, redistribute, and modify a work and requires all copies and derivatives to be available under the same license. Copies may also be sold commercially, but, if produced in larger quantities (greater than 100), the original document or source code must be made available to the work's recipient. The GFDL was designed for manuals, textb...

user15026

@MichaelT Yeah, that's the problem :( As much as I would like things to be free and open, there are so many ways for it to go horribly.

user55340

And an example of some text released under it: samizdat.mines.edu/howto/HowToBeAProgrammer.html

Thomas Owens

Oh. Unless you have multiple subclasses. >_<

user41796

@ThomasOwens <sad trombone>

Thomas Owens

@GlenH7 I have two children of Parent in overloaded methods. Apparently, it can't choose between the two children. I don't understand why. The parameter has a specific type. Find the method, dammit.

N^3 parsing

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