The Whiteboard

1:04 AM

@RobertHarvey if only. Nah, it's just another of the numerous neat languages to be aware of. Eventually one of these odd languages out there is going to pick up steam, C# and Java can't dominate forever. Worth keeping an eye out, besides it always helps to know what's possible beyond what features your daily language has...

Jimmy Hoffa

1:25 AM

@RobertHarvey I've said before, yuck. Well not really, it's ok, but ((UntypedLambdaCalculus)JavaScript) is better

I've somewhat explained the reasons behind that. Colleague gave me a nice scowl earlier when he told me he wished they just called "Lambda's" "functions" in C# instead and I told him lambda came long before it from lambda calculus...

to be totally fair, I don't know that's true for certain. but lambda is an older term than the function term he was thinking of. Was still worth prodding him.

Yannis Rizos

9:18 AM

0

Q: A long premise to the contribute which psychology can do to Meta communities

Please seat comfortable and take some time. I will not be synthetic, but it will be interesting, try to read it completely and see if you like. Try to judge only after reading the whole document :-) Have a look to this question: http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/251758/why-is-stack-overfl...

discussion

Hm, I have absolutely no idea what this is about.

Oded

Oh boy. @Yannis - OP is q-banned on main and on MSE. Gone off the deep end, if you ask me.

That looks like something the OP would have posted on MSE if they were not q-banned there, however incoherent it is. It should be closed as off-topic as it is about network wide issues and isn't really about Programmers as such.

Yannis Rizos

@Oded If it's still around as is when I'm off work, I'll just close as "unclear what you're asking".

Oded

9:33 AM

Sure. Note that OP has posted another rambling question on meta, @YannisRizos. Doesn't seem to take a hint (I believe Shog already referred to this one as "talking to the wall")

Yannis Rizos

9:45 AM

> I'm scared that people here could interpret this question as OT. Please write it before downvoting. Show dialogue and an effort to tell what you don't like.

Bit ironic coming from someone who hasn't put much effort in understanding what the site is about...

Oded

Like I said. Talking to the wall.

user41796

1:29 PM

-1

Q: Is IT going to flex or showing a past inflated expectations?

English is not my native language so I hope someone will help me at better express what I mean. Do you know Google Ngram? is a nice tool for making searches on Google Books. You can check how many books in the years have been written on some subject. If you click on the link you will note a Gau...

information

user41796

The irony is palpable....

mxyzplk

1:42 PM

Hey @MichaelT - apropos to meta.stackexchange.com/questions/230470/… I hear you have a script that finds questions with outstanding delete votes?

Posting it as an answer there would be appreciated!

user41796

@mxyzplk I have that query in my favorites, so I went ahead and dropped an answer in on your question.

user41796

Braiam's suggestion is good too. The query I provided lets you control the number returned along with how many votes are needed.

mxyzplk

@GlenH7 thanks man

user41796

yw

Thomas Owens

Hey. I took Monday off and only used 3 hours of vacation, assuming I work an 8 hour day today. I work longer, I use less vacation.

user55340

1:59 PM

Feb 28 at 21:05, by MichaelT

delete votes for cleanups: http://data.stackexchange.com/programmers/query/169338/find-duplicates-of-delete‌d-posts

user55340

Feb 25 at 16:59, by MichaelT

http://data.stackexchange.com/programmers/query/141131/list-of-questions-with-on‌ly-1-remaining-delete-vote-required-to-delete

user55340

@mxyzplk if you search here for 'data.stackexchange' you can find those and a bunch of other 'thats interesting' queries that we've tossed around.

user55340

One of the ones that I like is the cliff questions which is something that non-10k users can use to help clean up closed questions that are just a regular down vote or two away from the auto cleanup scripts.

Thomas Owens

SEDE is more interesting than the XML data dumps. I find that really sad.

mxyzplk

@MichaelT Thanks man

user55340

2:04 PM

@ThomasOwens Its the joins that make it more useful - I still like my anon-feedback explorer (until Shog adds it back to the 10k tools)

user55340

data.stackexchange.com/programmers/query/169976/…

user55340

@mxyzplk Stop by and feel free to ask if you've got a question about searching the data.

mxyzplk

@MichaelT can do

user55340

Side bit - its interesting seeing the next wave of active users on the site show up in comments. They're not quite to 3k rep yet, but I hope to see them in /review when they get there.

Thomas Owens

So I got rid of a lot of the inheritance. I still have a Message interface, though, that defines a single method to get the common header and still allows my factory method to return any specific instance. Now, I need to get my accept(SpecificMessage msg) functions working.

I never thought that I wished that I had a less strict typing system before.

user55340

2:19 PM

As long as you don't say "maybe I should code this in Ruby"...

Thomas Owens

Eww. No. Python, maybe. Ruby is terribad.

ratchet freak

you'll need a accept(Message) that dispatches (somehow) to the accept(SpecificMessage msg) functions

Thomas Owens

Yeah. I think that will work.

user55340

@ThomasOwens The thing with the 'less strict languages' is that they are perfectly ok and often very good when all of the developers working on the project are disciplined to not abuse it.

Thomas Owens

@MichaelT Most of the time, I very much prefer strict languages for that reason.

You can get by with a little less discipline because the language forces you to have it.

user55340

2:23 PM

When you start getting the 'sloppy' developers (or the disciplined ones start cutting corners) - thats where it becomes ugly and you start wishing for the languages that force them to implement everything that is in the interface and pass that around.

Thomas Owens

Exception in thread "Thread-0" java.lang.StackOverflowError >_<

user55340

Btw, if you ever want to blame nosql on something, blame it on Microsoft and Mozilla for not implementing Web SQL. ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_SQL_Database )

ratchet freak

you create your own threads?

without good names?

Thomas Owens

In my test code, I usually don't name my threads.

I'm spawning a thread since I'm testing a Runnable object.

I name them in the actual application, though.

ratchet freak

why not just run it, or pass to an executor

Thomas Owens

2:26 PM

I don't know what you mean. I do just run it.

Thread(new MyRunnable()).start()

ratchet freak

why the thread in the first place

Thomas Owens

Hmm. So apparently, it looks like I need to do casting.

I wanted to avoid that, but I can encapsulate that nasty in a single function.

ratchet freak

with an else if(msg instanceof SpecificMessage) chain?

Jimmy Hoffa

3:07 PM

@ratchetfreak ooo NCube seeds, how cute!

@ThomasOwens Do. And yes, the genericism you're dealing with in languages that do not support Algebraic Data Types always end up requiring casting, it's an unavoidable fact of the type system. I've spent countless hours trying to get around casting in exactly that scenario with C#, it's one of the reasons ADTs make parsing so much easier

It's just a limitation of the type system

but you're approach is right, blackbox the gross.

interfaces and things can push the casting off through layers, but at some point you'll need the specific message that has been constructed otherwise you wouldn't have constructed that specific message, unless you put all logic related to that message inside the message itself and exposed access through an interface, but usually you can't and or shouldn't do that without the message owning way too much logic about the system surrounding it

ratchet freak

@JimmyHoffa isolate the NCube seeds in salted earth

Jimmy Hoffa

@ratchetfreak salted earth n. def: My last workplace

user55340

3:25 PM

user55340

Is that an N cube?

Jimmy Hoffa

Or that?

user55340

Maybe... they both are.

whatsisname

4:04 PM

"to be used with subclause 201.12.1.101.3.2"

someone needs to be banned from MSword for the rest of their life

Jimmy Hoffa

4:37 PM

why does haskell have to be so much more concise and obvious when doing things that are weird as fuck in C#...

I'm playing name that thing, here's what I'm going to create:
something :: (a -> b) -> (b -> c) -> (b -> d) -> (a -> d)
something f1 f2 f3 = \x -> (f1 x >>= \y -> (f2 y >> f3 y))

it's going to be wayyy less comprehensible in C# though

moreover, what the hell do I name that... I'd call it KleisliThen in Haskell, easy enough but that doesn't mean anything to a C# dev

if I knew Haskell better I know it's derivable from mplus...

user55340

@JimmyHoffa So?

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT so, I'm doing this in C# for actual use by my colleagues...

hrmm I think I need to stop unrolling my monad to make this behave...

user55340

/**
 * Kleislify then something.
 * A kleis is a portmanteau in haskell that has its origins as a malapropism when someone was talking about Harry Kissinger...
 */

2

user55340

You just need the proper documentation on it.

user55340

(and if I repcap for some math I'm fairly sure I've got a glitch in...)

user55340

4:52 PM

Hmm... Lets pretend that I get 180 rep from that question and 20 rep from other answers with 30 more on other answers lost to the repcap. If that 180 is moved to Math.SE, would I get back the 30 rep lost to the repcap?

Jimmy Hoffa

...this code will be totally incomprehensible to all C# devs if I continue down this path...harumph.. time to back off on this. Nice API or not, right now it's comprehensible to a C# dev, I could improve the API by adding some recursion into the type system but it'll require more genericism and I'm already modeling recursive computations, encoding them in the type system will only result in recursive types and recursive computations which will never make sense to cow-orkers..

user55340

(I have yet to find out what orking a cow actually is... but I'm not sure I want to find out)

amon

@JimmyHoffa I'm sorry, my complexometer is off the scale (loud)

Jimmy Hoffa

@amon like I said, such is C#... in Haskell it's a tiny thing: something f1 f2 f3 = \x -> (f1 x >>= \y -> (f2 y >> f3 y))

very comprehensible and concise, made more so if I could think of the mplus derivation offhand

something like f1 x >>= foldM_ [f2, f3] might even do it

amon

Shorter != better. I can only read that because I incidentally learned about ">>" yesterday, but I haven't put the required effort into your line there to actually understand what it means

Jimmy Hoffa

4:59 PM

@amon I didn't say shorter, I said comprehensible and concise

@amon if you knew >>= and >> off hand, it would be plain as day what it does. It really is a clear easy to read bit of code, people always try to say Haskellers are claiming their approach is better because it's shorter; no, it's shorter because it's better

when you can clearly express things that are complex in other languages, you can express them with less usually as a side effect

@amon if you learned about >>, have you not learned about >>=? because >> is just (>>) f1 f2 = \x -> f1 x >>= \y -> f2 x

amon

I know enough about >>= to have written a monad tutorial once. Fortunately I didn't publish it.

And I now get what something does. I don't get where that specific abstraction would be useful.

Jimmy Hoffa

@amon it's if you have an f1, and you want to do an f2 but don't care about the result and want to carry the f1 result forward because you do care about the result of f3. Kind of a dumb implementation thinking about it, perhaps I should just implement >> and let consumers tack on f3 as they see fit...

it's a ton to fit in your head thinking about it in C# terms, but in Haskell terms it's easy to analyze the concept

@amon see - it didn't take much effort at all for you to see what something did, imagine how fugly the C# would have been and impossible to parse it would be... far larger, as I said Haskell's approach is shorter because it's better, C# simply cannot express that clearly

amon

var thing = f1(x);
thing.bind(f2);
return thing.bind(f3);

Jimmy Hoffa

Yeah I'll make >> , and because I'm working in a maybe monad, I'll call it HaltUnless.. this won't be so bad to

amon

Did I miss something, or would the above pseudo-C# be equivalent to your concise Haskell?

Jimmy Hoffa

5:16 PM

x => someMonad.bind(f1(x), y => someMonad.bind(f2(y), z => f3(y)))

@amon yes, your code does not do the same thing

Jimmy Hoffa

5:29 PM

though that also implies the monad can be encoded properly in C# to begin with; which it can't. You have to jump through a bunch of hoops to do half the monad implementation inside somewhere general, and the other half on each usage which would make the above code more complex

Jimmy Hoffa

6:03 PM

@AshleyNunn not the term I'd use. I'd flag it but I don't care to click the Q link from work

user15026

Oh, that's fun.

Jimmy Hoffa

Which brings up a new MSE feature request I'm to post: flag link from the Q page so you don't have to navigate to a Q to flag it. Or a local hide perhaps..

user41796

@JimmyHoffa I have edited the title. The users avatar fails to meet SE guidelines. Flagging as offensive would be helpful.

user15026

@GlenH7 I just did :)

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 that's an understatement

user41796

6:06 PM

@ThomasOwens - Can you nuke the user account on this question, please?

user41796

Is the Tavern where all the community managers are supposed to hang out?

Jimmy Hoffa

@AshleyNunn go scream in the mod room

user41796

@JimmyHoffa we need either a mod on our site or a community manager or an SE employee

user15026

@JimmyHoffa Done

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 I suspect the ladder of which may be in the mod room, alternatively any mod on a site the user has an account might be able to jigger the user's avatar to something else? Maybe...

user41796

6:08 PM

@AshleyNunn thanks

Jimmy Hoffa

I should think a mod on a site which get's such crap from a user ought be able to do things to the users account that effect their account across the network

You'd want the P.SE mod to be able to disable that user from assaulting other sites without having to be a mod on those other sites

user41796

@JimmyHoffa not sure, dubious with only one offensive post in place. I don't think it's setup the way you think it is as those situations are fairly rare

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 still my second point stands; a user injurious to the network shouldn't require a network-wide admin to effect their network-wide privs

because it's accepted that a user who commits spam or other such activities is wanted nowhere in the network, and one shouldn't require all network mods individually to be required to stop that

user41796

@JimmyHoffa usually it's the automatic spam hammer that traps those. And that takes a couple of questions to trigger

user41796

The troll's avatar has been updated.

Thomas Owens

6:20 PM

Gah. I missed excitement in a meeting.

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens all the better for your work-network-access-trail

Thomas Owens

And now I have another meeting that I was uninvited from. But I spent 2 hours preparing. So I'm going and they can deal with it. puts on sunglasses

3

user55340

Whee! Rep cap on math and number theory.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT uncorrect

user41796

@ThomasOwens Yep, Anna Lear had to take out the garbage for us

Thomas Owens

6:23 PM

@GlenH7 I would have expected her or @Oded to take care of things.

user55340

@JimmyHoffa I'm still fairly sure I've got a 'bug' in there of some sort, though its possible I"m correct.

user41796

I jumped over to the Tavern and Anna was the quickest to respond

user41796

Let's just say the choice of avatar matched the industry they claimed to be working in.

Thomas Owens

Yeah. I saw a discussion in other places.

user41796

What's kind of unusual though is the account activity. The account has been open for a while, presumably with the default gravatar. The questions asked on SO were a bit basic but not trolling.

Jimmy Hoffa

6:26 PM

@MichaelT you should formulate a proof in there. Doesn't have to be super formal, just some simple logic/math that shows it

@GlenH7 perhaps the account was compromised.

user41796

And if you look at the comment thread in one of the SO questions, the user asked why they were getting downvotes ~2 days after any recent activity on the question. And another commenter mentioned the user's avatar. That implies it was changed recently

user55340

@JimmyHoffa something like everything2.com/title/m_turner%2527s+postulate ?

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT right

user41796

@JimmyHoffa Kind of what I'm wondering too. But one of the older SO questions mentioned working the adult side of the industry.

user55340

Given how much rep I've gotten from it, I'll look at writing something good this weekend...

Jimmy Hoffa

6:29 PM

@MichaelT perhaps something closer to what that hobyrne guy did; doesn't need his formal notations, but english words in their place could give a simple laymans logical proof

@GlenH7 perhaps he left his work machine unlocked and a cow-orker played a prank

user55340

It will take some thought and maybe some additional sleep... but yea.

user55340

@JimmyHoffa given his SO questions, not sure.

user41796

@JimmyHoffa That is probably it

user41796

Andy's back: programmers.stackexchange.com/q/237034/53019

user41796

@ThomasOwens - would you mind nuking that one? ^^^^

user55340

6:32 PM

@GlenH7 last close vote is gone now.

user41796

I find the coincidental timing between the immediately prior troll and Andy showing back up to be kind of funny.

whatsisname

I just cast the final vote to nuke that one

user41796

@whatsisname thanks!

user41796

And I got the first vote-to-delete in on it.

user55340

@whatsisname ... or his name is Mel

whatsisname

6:35 PM

i saw that

user55340

(the real programmers write in fortran thing)

user55340

I deleted it because I didn't want to inspire the next Andy question accidently.

user55340

hope he didn't see it.

user41796

@MichaelT At least he's moved up from machine language trolling

user55340

Next we might get paper tape.

user55340

6:37 PM

(whee! I got the 3rd delete vote!)

user41796

And Telastyn got the 2nd

user55340

I want the modified background for that question.

user55340

And the fireworks.

user41796

Yes. To both.

user41796

You know, it's not too bad when we can swat crap down in ~15 minutes.

user41796

6:41 PM

Yay for the community

user55340

6:54 PM

Just need that 3rd vote to blow away THAT question.

user41796

Stop using goto. — JeffO 15 mins ago

user55340

@GlenH7 take 2: programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/237035/…

user41796

Made me laugh

user55340

I wonder if we should try to migrate it to SO.

user55340

(btw, I'm out of close votes)

user55340

6:57 PM

Might try yelling in the tavern and ask Tim for some more close votes...

user41796

@MichaelT He didn't sign out from there....

user41796

@FrustratedWithFormsDesigner - I think you clicked on the wrong button. "delete" is two places to the right of "edit" :-) — GlenH7 8 secs ago

user41796

@MichaelT This is a good afternoon to demonstrate why we need more close votes.

user41796

7:12 PM

Andy changed his account name: programmers.stackexchange.com/users/124605/…

whatsisname

ugh

you know you are in for trouble

when you are reading a document, published in 2011

that has the phrase "for MS-DOS compatibility......"

psr

I'm flagging the porn question as spam - it seems hell bent on linking to that site so it's effectively an advertisement.

user55340

@psr Yep. My flag is there too.

psr

@MichaelT mentioned it here because I think it auto-deletes after 6 such flags, which would be nice

And it's gone. I'm just a shade over 1 rep-cap away from being able to cast delete votes myself.

user55340

7:31 PM

@psr Karl got the 3rd vote there. The other thing that 6x spam flags does on a question is that if it the only post by the user, it will destroy the account.

user55340

@psr do some math about why 1/3 can't be represented in base 10 without a repeating decimal... its a hot question currently.

user55340

(and Oded is on it)

Robert Harvey

SLAM! Oded strikes again.

user55340

@Oded could you migrate those punchard questions to Stack Overflow? Oh hi @RobertHarvey

Oded

@MichaelT heh. Troll is trolling, so no.

Robert Harvey

7:38 PM

Ah, c'mon.

user122834

1 1

c c++ career-development java php

Oh. Already fixed.

Oded

What an idiot. 2 mods, on 2 sites told him about his pron avatar. I ask if he is looking for a network wide ban, so he responds with a "why". Then gives us back that lovely image.

user55340

@Oded Is the porn one andy too? (though you probably can't answer that)

Oded

Dunno. Didn't look, don't care. Network-wide ban given.

user55340

@RobertHarvey btw, you and I are trading places in the top two for quarter rep. I pulled ahead with the math problem.

Robert Harvey

Not enough good questions. :(

user55340

7:45 PM

(though you're still quite a bit ahead of me for the year 9.8k vs 6.7k)

user55340

btw, @Oded stackexchange.com/leagues/52/year/programmers stalls.

Oded

@MichaelT will need to take a look at that...

user55340

quarter, month, week - all fine. Just year.

Oded

Urg. Backend api call is timing out. Yay.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Oded backend api timeouts? Never happen. Perhaps you need some web scale sauce ?

Oded

7:55 PM

heh.

user55340

►

user55340

(no, thats not mongo this time)

whatsisname

dammit, just realized I had the wrong footprint on a PCB i just ordered

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT oh, is it that time on Friday already... looks like the rest of my day may be ded, thanks @MichaelT...

@MichaelT just on the initial bit of it let me start by saying: Apache...blech... ok, carry on.

"Because apache was built before async was discovered" heh yeah, sadly that is a terribly common belief; that Node.JS invented asynchronous event driven runtimes

Robert Harvey

Another misconception is that Node is single threaded. It's not.

Only the event loop runs on a single thread.

(this is where I admit that I'm terribly oversimplifying it, but...)

Here, have a link: rickgaribay.net/archive/2012/01/28/…

Jimmy Hoffa

8:12 PM

@RobertHarvey would mostly have to, handling the event-feed concurrently would result in requiring transactional access otherwise you could have race conditions where an event is dequeued by two threads, pumped to it's continuation, and now you've double-executed it's continuation. Putting a transaction around the access really just means you're making it single-threadedly accessed anyway, pretty much...

Robert Harvey

I'd love to be able to say I understood what you just said, but...

user55340

@JimmyHoffa btw, there's a haskell question out there hat doesn't look off topic at 0th glance.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey I think I should stop learning things. I excitedly told a colleague about this constant expression visitor I stumbled across yesterday and he looked at me and said exactly the same thing... If I learn anything more advanced than the topics I know right now, I'm likely to just alienate myself to the point that I can no longer even write a CRUD app properly anymore...

user55340

0

Q: To which level Haskell's HDBC is lazy?

The HDBC documentation states: fetchAllRows :: Statement -> IO [[SqlValue]]Source Lazily fetch all rows from an executed Statement. You can think of this as hGetContents applied to a database result set. The result of this is a lazy list, and each new row will be read, lazi...

database haskell

user55340

@JimmyHoffa You'd just write the crud monad.

Robert Harvey

8:16 PM

Starred, just because it has the word monad in it.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT ...that's kind of what I did write recently with expressions...create, retrieve, update, and delete all generalized with expressions with a composition method I wrote that uses null as a halt such as Nothing in the Maybe monad....

@MichaelT Not even a Haskell question though, and a simple answer... one moment..

user41796

@MichaelT - I don't think the two trolls were the same. I'm pretty sure the punchcard one was Andy. The pr0n one was a new one. The pr0n troll had attempted at asking some non-troll questions on their SO account.

Jimmy Hoffa

0

A: To which level Haskell's HDBC is lazy?

I suspect (thought I can't verify) that they're relying on the standard ODBC capability for the data-streaming based on the fact that the documentation says it supports [...] and have it work with any number of backend SQL databases (MySQL, Oracle, PostgreSQL, ODBC-compliant databases, etc.) ...

deostroll

8:32 PM

Hi. Can anyone give me an advice on how to go about learning azure?

windows azure cloud infrastructure

user41796

@deostroll pick an individual element and start with that

user41796

Azure as a whole is huge

deostroll

I mean how people learn it.

user55340

(steps back - I'm not in a microsoft stack at all...)

deostroll

I am a web dev guy

user41796

8:33 PM

Even the experts like Hanselman and Guthrie don't even pretend to understand the entire thing

user41796

Figure out what you need from it and start there

user41796

start with their online docs (which are fairly decent but not perfect) and go from there

user41796

Get a free trial account or register your MSDN account to get a recurring credit

deostroll

I need hands on...for that what azure option/package must I take?

user41796

what element do you need to start with? A web page? A VM? The service bus?

ratchet freak

8:36 PM

@GlenH7 Hanselman and Guthrie? sounds a lot like Hansel and Grettel...

deostroll

I'll need knowledge to host a web application...and basically support stuff modern web apps support...messaging queues, databases, windows services, etc...

not modern web app - enterprise web apps to be precise.

user41796

@ratchetfreak The Scotts are hilarious in their own ways. And I just realized that I've heckled both at conferences. It was good natured, but it seems a bit uncouth of me to heckle an EVP of MS.

Jimmy Hoffa

@deostroll what have you tried so far?

Do you already know how to work with Message Queues, databases, windows services, outside of azure?

user41796

@deostroll I'd start with a free hosted web site first

user41796

then start looking at their hosted services to move more towards a web app world

Jimmy Hoffa

8:39 PM

also I'd elect not to end your nick with 'troll' unless you want people to be mildly suspicious.

deostroll

db & windows sevices, yep. But messaging queues I haven't had any work exposure

user41796

From there you could start looking at integrating their app services as needed which is where you'll find the message bus and whatnot

Jimmy Hoffa

@deostroll Then start with that. Work with a local MQ, ActiveMQ, ZeroMQ, MSMQ, there's tons you can download for free online, grab a C# client library for them and start pushing messages around them to see how they behave and what they can be used for. After you understand the concepts of them, then look at Azure's implementation to see the differences.

deostroll

my name is just one that stuck me when I coined it in my teenage years...18 yrs ago

user41796

And from there, just google whenever you hit a problem

user41796

8:40 PM

As I said, their docs are pretty decent and they make a lot of things dead simple.

Jimmy Hoffa

Further, Azure's MQ stuff has a lot of "ServiceBus" bits and bobbles to it so it may be worth your while to grab a service bus from online and play with that as well first

deostroll

and you are supposed to read it with the s

user41796

Hanselman actually has some great rants about how easy they make things

Jimmy Hoffa

@deostroll pick one of the techs, go read blogs, write some code, play with it. How did you learn the stuff you already know about programming? Just do that

Furthermore, I haven't used azure, so with that I'll bow out of this conversation on grounds of lacking detailed knowledge. Likely the same of the others here, we're in the trenches, not usually on the bleeding edge...

deostroll

well, i had the tools IDE to work with...

but it ain't the case here

user41796

8:43 PM

@deostroll azure.microsoft.com/en-us/pricing/details/visual-studio-online

user41796

Not true. :-)

user41796

And they've got powershell plugins as well

user41796

Hanselman has shown off some command prompt integration, but I don't know where he got the package from

user41796

but you can do quite a bit of stuff directly within their management portal after you register for a free account

Jimmy Hoffa

In short, follow links, read lots, play lots, none of us know of any direct-neural-download approaches that will speed up the learning beyond just reading, and applying yourself.

> I know kung fu

user41796

8:47 PM

@JimmyHoffa be careful in what you suggest

deostroll

my only prob is in playing a lot...I am not sure what the best way to do it...

user41796

@JimmyHoffa I'd ping that but I think most will miss the reference

user55340

@GlenH7 reps before migrate?

user55340

0

A: How are java increment statements evaluated in complex expressions

Its easier to see the what is going on with x = 1 instead of 2. The output for x=1 is 7. The key to the understanding of this is in JLS 15.7.2 which states that the every operand is fully evaluated before any part of the operation is preformed. The Java programming language guarantees that ...

Jimmy Hoffa

@deostroll then start with the reading a lot, keep going until you know what to do other than reading.

deostroll

8:47 PM

granted I need an azure account...

but what package should a person like me start with...

user41796

@MichaelT double points are always fun

user41796

@deostroll go deploy a web site there first; you won't need anything special

user41796

honestly, just go do. You're worrying way too much about needing this or that. Just go do it. You'll figure out what you need as you're doing it.

user41796

And you don't need all that much to be perfectly honest

user41796

As much as I'll bash Microsoft on other things, they have made the barrier to entry for using Azure ridiculously low.

deostroll

8:51 PM

btw, those stuff on active MQ, local MQ, etc...are they azure stuff...or something I was instructed to learn in order to understand MQ in general?

user41796

@deostroll MQ in general

user55340

MQ is good to understand no matter what you're working with.

user55340

You'll keep finding it in places where different systems need to talk... at my former employer working with a credit card processing company, even had some MQ code that went down to a machine that still speaks ebcdic (had to put a flag on there to say "this data is ascii")

user41796

@MichaelT That's one translation that websphere MQ nails very handily

user55340

The credit card company was the one with the ebcdic machine... and they had huge message queue processing thing going on. For my message to get to the thing that finally handled it, it went through half a dozen queues.

user55340

8:54 PM

this queue forwards to that one, this process looked at it, redispatched it to another queue, a process there picked it up, looked at it, dispatched it over there... so on.

user55340

@GlenH7 the biggest fun was I was doing what looked like JMS, until I had to cast that object to a websphere message so I could tickle those fields.

gnat

Pale Horse Riders unite. When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come and see!" I looked and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth. — gnat 12 hours ago

^^^SOcalypse...

user55340

But from the Java side, it looked like I was just getting and sending JMS. Rather elegant.

user41796

@MichaelT That is really slick. All of the work I did was in C. Still really slick, but it only looked elegant to other C devs.

user55340

Thats part of why it was so nice. Looked like a nice interface to any side you were working with.

user55340

8:58 PM

Just one of those 'huh whats this' when I hit that ebcdic layer and got back an error message that looked like random data to me... but it wasn't quite random.

user41796

@MichaelT polite snicker. Did you have to worry about endianness too? I'm pretty sure we had some x86 servers in our mix so it was an issue.

user55340

(I was looking at hex dumps because I was doing some byte alignment on some fields and making sure java wasn't doing any unicode funkyness with it... and then suddenly I got back a message that started out with `xC5 xD9 xD9 xD6 xD9

user41796

most of the stuff was rs6000 or as/400 along with the mainframes so endian wasn't an issue that often. But I'm pretty sure the xSeries servers cropped in every now and then

user55340

Didn't have to fight byte order endingness... it was just ascii data we were sending back and forth.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT s/endingness/endianness/f

user55340

9:07 PM

@gnat I like Mystical's answer.

gnat

not bad. Speaking of Pale Horse Riders, does anyone have a bit of sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth for this:

0

Q: Top Ten Programming Languages

What would be the top ten language programs and concepts to learn for a beginner programmer? Here's what I've gathered so far: C Cobol Python Java Algorithms I would like to get a good grasp of the programs out there since there's so many, but I don't know which ones to start with. I'm inter...

learning

user55340

@gnat only got downvotes.

Jimmy Hoffa

haha "it's because of you, you #%&^#$, that we're not using LISP" <-- the ending to that Node.JS thing makes the whole thing worthwhile

gnat

@MichaelT I have only VLQ flag

user55340

If you haven't read the essay A Group is its Own Worst Enemy, @SpencerSimpson, I think you will enjoy it. — Josh Caswell 2 days ago

user41796

9:09 PM

@MichaelT downvotes and a VTC

Jimmy Hoffa

@gnat VTC, DV, and VLQ - Hat Trick.

user55340

9:24 PM

@gnat the open/close on that is fairly epic too.

Jimmy Hoffa

0

Q: What strategies/libraries are there for quarantining bad data in Java?

I'm looking for recommended patterns to quarantine data in Java. Are there any libraries or common strategies for keeping and archiving problem records when errors occur? I'm thinking of making a special Exception type which takes the trouble record as a parameter. It could then write the record...

java error-handling

either too broad or unclear

user55340

9:49 PM

its-friday My co-workers were wondering about a spoken text jquery minified source. So I grabbed the text, dropped it into the mac and did a start speaking.,, very amusing. The syth voice started getting excited in certain passages and sound a bit sad in others.

Jimmy Hoffa

10:07 PM

@MichaelT good tagging. hilarious also. would you believe it; 4pm on a friday I'm about to do a production deployment!

(ok, I'm deploying a monitoring tool that mostly only I use and isn't publicized...)

mostly I'm surprised this late on a friday I actually accomplished some actual featurework - the console will now connect to multiple MQs for getting it's data feeds instead of just the one like it does now.

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