The Water Cooler

PaulDonny

12:44 AM

I am starting to think I have a few 'haters' here:-)

enderland

@PaulDonny voting on meta means "Agree/disagree"

PaulDonny

@enderland I know

enderland

I know I have a hater here, I just ignore 100% of the content he posts or addresses to me, and it works out pretty well

PaulDonny

@enderland Just people seem to be quite hostile towards me with nearly all of my posts. My post regarding breaks was immediately downvoted and closed voted

enderland

@PaulDonny my thoughts (since I've neither voted nor really read it till just now)

the title doesn't indicate a question, this isn't a good starting place

your actual question is more or less blatantly a poll -

> Is there any suggestions on how to prepare for this

PaulDonny

12:48 AM

Well, if you remove the second half of the question than possibly

enderland

possibly? you are literally asking for "suggestions"

PaulDonny

Isn't that what nearly everyone asks for here?

enderland

note the difference between

> Is there any suggestions on how to prepare for this and to kind of test the waters in order to stay in the best light of my company while performing optimal work quality?

and

> How can I begin work at a new company and maintain my current break schedule, without appearing lazy?

PaulDonny

Well, that doesn't really ask the question I am asking

I can integrate my habits by just doing it and having the new company accept it

enderland

@PaulDonny then what's your actual question?

PaulDonny

12:54 AM

Suggestions for how to test the waters in order to stay in the best light of my company while performing optimal work quality?

enderland

also, you should be asking the second question I put in chat - not "give me some suggestions" - because realistically an answer to your quesiton is similar to my answer to this question here, specifically the last line

Polls (which is what "suggestions" are) don't fit the Q/A format well

PaulDonny

Suggestions are not polls

Polls are do you like a or b

Suggestions is answers to questions

enderland

@PaulDonny "hey guys give me some ideas about this situation" is basically what suggestions are

PaulDonny

@enderland Is that not what 90% of the questions here are?

enderland

There are sometimes multiple possible answers here, yes, but questions asking for "give me a list of suggestions" is not a:

> You should only ask practical, answerable questions based on actual problems that you face

PaulDonny

12:59 AM

Geez man, you are impossible

enderland

what? no, I'm drawing on several years of experience from this site and seeing how most subjective questions NOT having a practical/answerable question run into problems

you want me to give you "Feel good" confirmation your question is the best question ever? or you want me to explain why someone likely downvoted it?

PaulDonny

I think Joe gave a rather quality answer to the question

enderland

I'm not going to keep wasting my time explaining things unless you indicate you actually want to learn, rather than argue with me - I don't waste my time arguing

PaulDonny

I am just simply stating that I think that your logic is flawed and incorrect

enderland

@PaulDonny notice how he answered this question - chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/14735795#14735795

he didn't answer "give me some suggestions" - he nearly exactly answered the question I posted earlier

2 mins ago, by PaulDonny

Geez man, you are impossible

PaulDonny

1:03 AM

He did give suggestions as to how I should get a feel for the company's view on it

I really don't care honestly

enderland

20 mins ago, by PaulDonny

@enderland Just people seem to be quite hostile towards me with nearly all of my posts. My post regarding breaks was immediately downvoted and closed voted

obviously you care enough that you feel this community is hostile towards you

anyways, whatever

PaulDonny

I don't think the community is, just a few of the people

enderland

meh. you basically told me over the course of this chat, "I don't care why you think this question isn't perfect" so it's going to be hard for me to have any sympathy if you feel singled out

jmac

Hey @Paul, have you read Q&A is hard, let's go shopping before?

PaulDonny

No, I haven't yet

jmac

1:09 AM

We don't allow things asking for lists or suggestions because there is no way to determine what the 'right' answer is, since by definition every suggestion is equally valid. So even though some answers may offer suggestions, they offer a suggestion to solve the problem. So asking, "Can you give me ideas/suggestions" is bad, but asking, "How can I solve this problem?" is good

PaulDonny

So I should remove the word suggestion?

jmac

It's not about wording, it's about the content of the question.

PaulDonny

Well I am asking for ways to recognize from the company whether a certain behavior is acceptable or not

jmac

Could you link the question you are asking about?

enderland

@PaulDonny .... why? what is the problem you are trying to solve? that should be your question

PaulDonny

1:11 AM

2

Q: Taking breaks during work hours

I am concerned that I am switching companies and I tend to take several breaks throughout the day in order to clear my head of my work and relax (And smoke a cigarette). Typically there is approximately 4 of these breaks a day, maybe 2 on a good day and 5 on a bad day. My current company has no...

@enderland That is in my question.

jmac

I think the issue with the question is that you don't have an actual problem. You want to see if there is a problem.

enderland

This is deja vu. "give me a list of suggestions" is not a question nor a problem. Yet it is the core of what you articulated

I'm wanting to edit the title to be more descriptive but... I don't even know what to edit it to

PaulDonny

jmac, I agree there is not a huge actual problem. I am just looking for signs to be able to recognize what is acceptable and what is unacceptable behavior

enderland

:14736147 this conversation started regarding confusion on a downvote/close vote on the question, apparently from someone other than both us :P

PaulDonny

@enderland I am horrible at giving titles to anything

jmac

1:14 AM

I see you're not active on SO, are you familiar with the SE system?

PaulDonny

Somewhat, yes jmac. I am not a developer though so I mainly just read the answers on SO

enderland

@PaulDonny asking a good question is a lot harder than most people realize. this is why so many questions here get ediits (@Jmac does this a fair bit) which significantly make questions more cohesive

jmac

Usually the best questions are the ones not asked on the SE network. A lot of questions get solved in the process of writing them out. So when writing your question, you may have realized that you don't actually have a problem. Sometimes it's better not to post in that case.

How do you know what's acceptable in your workplace regarding breaks? You try it, and see what happens. Then, if you get flak for your breaks, then you ask a question about how to solve that problem (and let you take your breaks without looking lazy)

But the answer to your current question is just, "Try it and see what happens", which makes it a less-than-useful question in the long run.

PaulDonny

@jmac Well, I was curious as to how to judge the best way to fit into the new company with my current patterns. How to get a feel for how they handle things, essentially

enderland

@PaulDonny I'm going to edit your question (you can always roll it back), I think this will be more clear what Jmac and I are getting at if I do this

jmac

1:18 AM

@PaulDonny I'm sure this isn't your first time in a new environment. How did you figure out how they handled things the last time this came up?

Jim G.

@PaulDonny; It's a very reasonable question. Don't doubt yourself.

PaulDonny

@jmac 99% of the time I show up, destroy everything and put it back better

This time is different, it's a short term contract

@enderland That's fine. I got the answer I needed

jmac

@PaulDonny Ah, okay, now that can make it a better question. Because it's a short term contract you don't have time to do the trial and error as usual, and want to know how to broach the subject of taking breaks in a professional fashion?

PaulDonny

Yeah jmac, that might be a better way to word it

jmac

Anyway, we look forward to seeing more from you. Sometimes things will get closed if it isn't a good fit. This isn't us being out to get you, it has to do with maintaining site quality. Any closure is temporary and can usually be solved with an edit. Like figuring out the culture of your office regarding breaks, you'll figure out our culture with questions if you stick around.

Woah, this question go hot listed over the weekend apparently:

53

Q: Is it okay to leave my original documents with a company who wants them "as insurance"?

I was a temporary employee for three months, and I recently signed a one year contract with the company where I am currently employed at. Now after signing the contract, the company wants my original degree certificate as a safety insurance, just to make sure that I will comply with the company r...

company-policy employees pakistan

I can't believe the top answer has 97 upvotes considering all it says is, "Golly gee, I've never heard of that before"

enderland

1:24 AM

@PaulDonny I edited it. notice that you could replace the quote in @Joe's answer verbatim with the question I added, too

@jmac I"d actually be curious your perspective on my edit too while you're here :)

jmac

@enderland I'd fix this sentence (since it is a nightmare to parse), but otherwise good: "I am taking a new short term contract position and am worried these breaks will result in my new coworkers seeing me as being lazy, rather than when I have an issue I don't understand I just have to walk away typically."

Something like, "I usually take these breaks when I have a work-related issue I need to think about, but I'm worried my coworkers will see them as me being lazy or avoiding work instead."

enderland

I just made it two sentences. seemed easier (though seriously why the hate for run on sentences that are joined with a simple comma! ;)

jmac

Still a nightmare to parse @enderland, "I want them to understand when I have an issue I don't understand I have to walk away typically."

enderland

fine. I wanted to leave... some of the original wording intact ;)

jmac

Don't fear aggressive edits!

PaulDonny

1:37 AM

I really don't mind. Honestly, making it more generic would be optimal

enderland

@jmac I suspect I've probably made either the second or third most of those on the site, after you and jmort

jmac

@PaulDonny You may be interested in this, particularly this part

@enderland I don't even think I'm at the top of the list. Jim seems to be our most active editor

2

enderland

@jmac number of edits is misleading though, I mean "I rewrote your question to make it significantly better" types of edits only

jmac

@enderland My brain is running at about 3% capacity right now. I got plenty of sleep, but I don't think I slept well. Apologies for not catching the obvious!

enderland

a lof of those edits are edits to include tags, etc

jmac

1:44 AM

Though I have been really lax on editing as of late. Taking the time to refactor questions is really hard when there are so many questions to handle. We are up to 9/day in 2014, which is great!

PaulDonny

-4

Q: i want some guide in relocation process and form that use yo help the process

Kindly advise us about the policy and procedure can help us. and also the scope and forms or template. and any thing can help in this business.

professionalism software-industry management work-environment career-development

I would really love to get a decent answer/question along those lines

enderland

9

Q: What can relocation assistance entail?

I have received an offer for a company, and on the company website, it says they provide relocation assistance under the benefits section. When I received the job offer, he never mentioned relocation assistance. I would be moving three hours away and need to rent a truck to move. If he did not ...

hiring-process negotiation relocation

PaulDonny

By that I mean stuff regarding relocation

I already know I won't get assistance at all

And I am moving 2200 miles

enderland

I have no idea what you are asking...

PaulDonny

I'm not asking, just stating would love to see more questions about it in general

I don't have a particular question, would be a better way to say it I suppose

enderland

1:50 AM

I don't know what you could get more detailed than the question I posted, every company has different policies on this ranging from "what? relocation?" to "sure we will help you sell your house"

Ask them. No two companies offer the same thing and there is no standard for "relocation assistance". I would also expect it depends on the kinds of assistance the individual requires. — Oded ♦ Jan 18 '13 at 16:11

I think there's an IRS or federal minimum of 50 miles before companies can pay relocation (probably for tax reasons to avoid them being able to give a huge perk to employees? I'm speculating some)

PaulDonny

The next answer actually goes into detail about that

50 miles further than the commute of the former position

Please note that answers should provide more sufficient explanation as why the answer is correct. The logic and reasoning should be explained not just to prove the answer but to ensure that the person(s) needing the answer understand the steps and so that future visitors can utilize the answer for their issue that is similar.

Jim G.

12:00 PM

I do not support making an already nebulous blurb even less clear by adding that it is optional. At that point you might as well remove it entirely. — enderland 11 hours ago

Stack Exchange

1:13 PM

0

Q: Is answering the situation appropriate?

I received a written warning for my performance, how can I save my job? Another posting about this, oh well. So the question is simple, should answers that answer the situation that the Asker described, while not directly answering their questions, be acceptable? For example (And it is a horrib...

discussion

enderland

1:32 PM

-1

Q: Is answering the situation appropriate?

I received a written warning for my performance, how can I save my job? Another posting about this, oh well. So the question is simple, should answers that answer the situation that the Asker described, while not directly answering their questions, be acceptable? For example (And it is a horrib...

discussion

7

Q: When asked 'How can I foo the bar?' is 'Don't foo the bar' an appropriate answer?

On Cleaning Up Bad Answers on Popular Questions a comment by Yamikurone says: There seems to be a flood of "Not an answer" flags on answers on this post. Many of the answers so flagged were, in fact, trying to answer the question. If they're low quality, downvote instead please. The fundame...

discussion specific-question answers

these are duplicates

@PaulDonny those are the exact same situations

"how can I work on this PIP?"
"don't try you are going to get fired"

gnat

@Chad I think I figured what makes me feel bad about that answer...

0

A: Is this a "Bad" answer and what should be done with it?

As far as I can tell, it was a bad answer at the moment you asked that meta question. Of the issues you listed, my primary concern about it is that it opens with a very questionable statement: "no one else has stated it yet" (referring that "this situation reads like your manager is laying the gr...

and unfortunately, edits made to the answer didn't help me to quit that feeling. Though certainly made it look less slippery for a wider audience

PaulDonny

@enderland Their not the exact same situations. The 'Don't foo the bar' answer is referring to someone asking something and the answer is 'No, don't' where my question is more related to someone explaining something and not asking the correct question(s)

enderland

@PaulDonny your example is identical

"how can I get a raise?"
"don't, get gambling help instead"

I would also encourage you to spend some serious time reading around how SE works prior to starting to go to town making lots of suggestions on how to change everything. You are obviously eager to start fixing everything you see as broken but are still very new to the entire network - SE is profoundly different than nearly all other online web forums/discussion boards/etc as it's focus is unique.

Chad

@gnat Which is why i hate editing questions that do not answer the question to "look" better.

PaulDonny

@enderland I am not recommending a change, I was discussing something. I honestly was curious as to whether or not that would be an acceptable answer

Chad

1:45 PM

@PaulDonny - I wish you hadnt deleted that question I think it was of value.

PaulDonny

@enderland As for the only other change I recommended, I think people being condescending and rude is pretty much a no brainer and if you have a problem with that than I am sorry

You can feel free to continue to be condescending and rude, I just gave my 2 cents

Chad

@enderland The difference here is the answer of dont try is neither backed up nor properly explained

enderland

oh ffs. I spent a ton of time yesterday trying to help you understand how this site works

feel free to call me "rude and condescending" if you like

but the reality is that SE is a lot different than the rest of the internet

CMW

Isn't that topic less around how the site works and more about what Paul perceived as calling people lemmings or similar?

enderland

@CMW we had a huge discussion in chat the other day, in which basically I got told "I don't care, that's not how it should work!"

Chad

1:48 PM

@PaulDonny The answer is yes If it is properly backed up And when you say dont do X then the bar for backing it up and/or explaining why is higher

PaulDonny

How am I making lots of suggestions on changes beyond the post in Meta regarding the lemmings issue and ASKING whether answering the situation and not exactly the question is acceptable?

CMW

(sorry, I only tried to follow from the side lines over the weekend. I was pretty sick)

PaulDonny

@enderland When did I say that?

CMW

@enderland Ah, ok, my head was currently on the other topic, about being rude and condescending

Chad

@CMW Thats the accepted answer so it must be right :)

CMW

1:50 PM

^^

Chad

This question was very timely... the responses to it helped me decide who I was voting for

PaulDonny

My quote was 'Geez man, you are impossible' meaning I was tired of discussing the issue. Afterwards I not only accepted that you were going to edit the question but encouraged it

enderland

@PaulDonny full disclosure - the way you discuss is really aggravating to me. Every interaction I've had with you has felt like you have this, "I'm just trying to help! I'll be passive aggressive and not actually interested in understanding where you are coming from, but trying to convince you I'm right!" attitude. I don't deal well with this on a site I put lots of volunteer time into - enough that I had a LOT of people trying to get me to run for moderator

Chad

@PaulDonny Here is my problem with your statement 'Geez man, you are impossible'

PaulDonny

@enderland I feel the same way with you

enderland

1:52 PM

I might be many things, but I am not passive aggressive. I am quite direct and will not beat around the bush on anything I believe

jmac

231 voters in the election so far.

CMW

of how many total?

Chad

You act like enderland is explaining to you his way of doing things. He is trying to help you understand the SE way of doing things. And you are blaming him for the policies. But those policies are the reason this site works.

3

CMW

or rather how many considered active?

PaulDonny

@enderland When have I been passive aggressive?

Chad

1:53 PM

Otherwise it ends up being a cesspool of my job sucks dont you agree? questions

CMW

(what's considered an active user in SE?)

enderland

@Chad I have thought it would be an interesting experiment if you, me, and jmac stopped voting on or editing questions/answers for a while (though this won't work well if jmac is elected :P)

jmac

@CMW I did the stats the other week in the election room

in Workplace 2014 Election, Apr 3 at 0:39, by jmac

CMW

ah, cool

jmac

in Workplace 2014 Election, Apr 3 at 0:38, by jmac

in Workplace 2014 Election, Apr 3 at 0:45, by jmac

(sorry, usually my charts are much more beautiful, you can blame Excel defaults for the hideousness)

CMW

1:56 PM

I'm not much of a chart geek, so these are great for me :)

I love those box charts

tho I can't tell for the life of me what they're trying to tell me

PaulDonny

@Chad I was already tired of discussing it. Feel free to open a new one similar to it but please do not undelete mine.

Chad

@jmac We have a number of users that stopped participating right around the time rarity ended up quitting. Thats why we have that gap in the 5-10k range.

jmac

I love beautiful things. Presentations. Charts. Well-formatted documents on nice paper in nice binders or the like.

CMW

@jmac I'm a coder. I love a neat, well-designed monospaced font and a small set of ansi colors. And a black background

jmac

We don't really have a gap though @Chad. The 100% chart is deceptive and just showing ratios, the sample size is teeny tiny, so I wouldn't read in to it much.

enderland

1:57 PM

@CMW in either LaTeX or GNUplot? :)

Chad

@PaulDonny All you have to do is stop responding or commenting and you can drop out of the conversation

gnat

@enderland we had something like that experiment in the past, only difference is that active community regulars didn't even try to do voting on or editing questions/answers. This is known as Not Programming Related, and it was operated on let the hell go loose premise from the very beginning, and it ended up in tears

53

A: How can I encourage Stack Overflow to rein in the 'subjective' vigilantes?

tl;dr We already tried supporting those questions, we even gave them their own site. Sadly, it didn't work out. C'est la vie. 3 years ago, a Stack Exchange site called Not Programming Related came out of Area51, the Stack Exchange staging zone. NPR was supposed to be a site where questions t...

jmac

@CMW The first chart is showing # of people who visited the election page, # who voted, and total number of people with that rep band on the site (the black line)

CMW

@enderland iTerm2

PaulDonny

@Chad Yeah but it still causes the flak that I have to deal with for 'trying to change the site'

jmac

1:58 PM

The second chart is showing what ratio of users from each band did during this election (voted, visited the election page, or didn't participate at all)

gnat

> Whatever your opinion of the site's current scope might be, you can't overlook the fact that it only started growing when it became a vigorously moderated serious Q&A site. Growth aside, every other aspect of the site gradually improved... The site you seem to want existed for more than a few months, and it failed. Horribly. I'm sorry but I see no reason to try it again.

2

Chad

@PaulDonny If you are not commenting or chatting about it you are not causing anything

jmac

And the third is showing what % of voters are at which rep level, with the red line showing cumulative percent (so folks under 1000 rep are 80% of our voters)

enderland

@gnat I suspect that cycle will happen here, too, it's a lot of work trying to fight what feels like an uphill battle even though it's the same battle fought at several other successful sites (skeptics and programmers come immediately to mind)

jmac

@enderland I actually stopped editing for a while after the aggressive edits meta post and the lukewarm reception. We saw a lot more closed questions (I was checking the stats). I figured I wasn't proving anything and the site was suffering, so I started again.

enderland

2:01 PM

@jmac I mean you get answers like this

-2

A: My boss wants to do personal activities together. How can I maintain work-life balance without negatively affecting our work relationship?

From the way you describe your workout routine, you don't work out with ANYONE. So, it's not just your boss. Your routine is your routine and your schedule is your schedule. You shouldn't make any changes in either your routine or your schedule just because he wants your company. I worked out pr...

not only is this not an answer but the only part that DOES address the question is exactly the strategy the asker highlights in bold to NOT be the solution

jmac

I think we're in a better state than the other sites were because we benefitted from their experience and from the support of people (like @gnat and @Yannis) who came over from there to help start things off right.

@enderland And it seems to have downvotes -- system is working. At least I hope.

What concerns me is less answer quality, but rather the lack of reigning in and commenting on bad questions. The question above is great, and well-scoped, and should be fine, but a lot of the bad answers are on questions that could really use some work

Chad

@jmac There is that 5-10k that has lower participation rates than the 3k block

jmac

@Chad Yeah, it's a magic trick because of small sample sizes. The gap is 1-2 people at most. Which is really nothing when you think about it.

You can play around with the data if you want, or run some jquery to update it

enderland

is there a master "SE is not a forum/discussion board" blog somewhere?

jmac

Blog - Stack Exchange: Real Questions Have Answers

Jeff Atwood on January 17, 2011

In Good Subjective, Bad Subjective, we made a pretty solid first stab at defining a constructive subjective question, one that I’ve been happy with so far.

Constructive subjective questions:

inspire answers that explain “why” and “how”. tend to have long, not short, answers. have a constructive, fair, and impartial tone. invite sharing experiences over opinions. insist that opinion be backed up with facts and references. are more than just mindless social fun.

tend to have long, not short, answers. have a constructive, fair, and impartial tone. invite sharing experiences over opinions. insist that opinion be backed up with facts and references. are more than just mindless social fun. …

3

Chad

2:06 PM

@enderland That question is a dupe

enderland

@Chad one is within teh context of work, one is without - Id say those are meaningfully different situatinos

@jmac hmmm in my mind I'm envisioning a post basically saying, "While forums and discussion boards encourage chatty responses, SE subjective sites are different"

Chad

@enderland I think I am inclined to agree there actually. One is I want to know about your personal life, the other is I want to be involved in it.

Blog - Stack Exchange: Five years ago, Stack Overflow launched. Then, a miracle occurred.

Jay Hanlon on September 16, 2013

Stack Overflow officially launched on September 15, 2008. In five short years, you’ve answered over 5 million questions on more than 100 sites, and helped hundreds of millions of people find the answers they needed. Today, we want to celebrate how, together, we changed one small corner of the Internet for the better.

We want to hear your stories about how someone on Stack Exchange helped you.

Before it went into beta, stackoverflow.com had a comic on the landing page that came to symbolize what we were setting out to do: …

how about that one

Blog - Stack Exchange: Stack Exchange is not a forum: the role of “niceness” on a Q&A site

Shog9 on August 08, 2012

It’s been a few weeks now since Joel kicked off our “summer of love”. There’ve been some excellent discussions in the blog comments and on Meta, and we’ve tried to present some hard data on how objectively “nice” we are. But it’s high time to talk about what place “niceness” really has on Stack Exchange. And to do that, we need to start by talking about you:

You, sir, are a jackass.

And that’s ok.

Stack Overflow wasn’t created to be some utopian ideal of peace and love. When Jeff & Joel set out to create this system, they knew full well the sort of problems that face online commun …

enderland

@Chad yes! I thought I'd read something like that

@PaulDonny that might be a good resource to at least read, it will provide a LOT of context for why I strongly "fight" to keep Workplace a Q/A site instead of a forum/discussion board

@Zachiel welcome

PaulDonny

@enderland At what point did I attempt to make it a forum/discussion board?

enderland

it relates to our conversation yesterday

and why clear questions are beneficial (others here are even more proponents of that than I am, actually) and why answers answering the question are important

Chad

2:19 PM

3

A: Is this a "Bad" answer and what should be done with it?

I believe, personally, that while this does not answer the individual specific questions that the OP asked it gives the best overall advice for the situation that the OP is in. I would like to see more depth to the answer and bullet points about making the remaining time at the company as fruitf...

enderland

a perfect example of a "non answer" which has similar problems is this one - workplace.stackexchange.com/a/22263/2322

it is advice which is probably useful to some extent to the asker, but it completely ignores the question they are asking

Chad

I believe, personally, that while this does not answer the individual specific question - to me that should be all you need. That you want to allow it here anyway is where you push it towards forum and away from SE

And honestly I would be fine with that answer if it was I am 99% sure you are getting fired... but that answer does not say 99% it says you are no matter what

That elevates the need to back it up to 100%

PaulDonny

@Chad I love how you and enderland always just quote small portions of my posts without the following piece that explains that I would want more to the answer

jmac

Hey @Paul, do you mind if I hop in and try to offer some advice?

PaulDonny

@jmac Sure thing jmac, go ahead

Chad

2:23 PM

@PaulDonny You asked where... i showed you where

Id like to see that but dont think it should be a requirement all the time

that does it

PaulDonny

The next quote from my post

I would like to see more depth to the answer and bullet points about making the remaining time at the company as fruitful as possible to attempt to leave the company on a good note but anything that recommends anything less than looking for other employment would be a horrible answer in my eyes.

Chad

@PaulDonny you think that is defending but that is the part that I find objectionable because you justify the non answer

jmac

1. I tend to find it best to talk about the *issues* rather than the *people*. Saying things like *"You and enderland always..."* puts folks on the defensive
2. This is an established community and there is a group of people very active in improving it (both @Chad and @enderland included). If you want to be part of the community, it may help to try to understand what they're saying and *ask* rather than *tell* at the start

3

Chad

Being right is not enough

jmac

I get that you want to participate, and hit the ground running, and that's great! That's what I did too when I joined:

13

Q: 34% Close Rate for Last 50 Questions, ~60% of those mention the reason

I just went through the latest 50 questions on the site. Of those 50 questions, 17 of them (34%) have been closed. Of those 17 questions, 10 or 11 clearly explain the reason the question was closed. A majority of those reasons were copy-paste and did not give any suggestions for how to improve, ...

discussion closed-questions close-reasons vote-to-close

PaulDonny

2:26 PM

@jmac 1. I agree completely with, however in this situation that is what is going on. The post has been broken down into bits that are being taken out of context

jmac

@Paul, which is more important to you: (1) being right and winning an internet argument, or (2) becoming a productive member of The Workplace?

PaulDonny

@jmac 2. Both enderland and chad have honestly lost my respect completely at this point. Sorry if they are established members of the community

jmac

I can't make your decision for you here, but if you focus on (1), you will find (2) to be much more difficult later on.

Chad

@PaulDonny why did you feel the need to say that? What did you hope to achieve other than making enemies of people who are trying to help you?

enderland

1

Q: How to sound professional when explaining that I cannot handle a request due to my illness?

Whether it is a customer, a colleague or a superior, what is the most professional and least career-damaging way to explain a shortcoming or inability to handle a request due to having being ill? Whether it is meeting a deadline, replying to a specific question by a customer, anything from the m...

professionalism sickness

haven't we had this question before?

I could find it though

Chad

2:29 PM

I think that question is too broad. We have had some better more specific questions

jmac

And to be honest @Paul, you need to give @Chad and @enderland respect before they can lose that respect. Maybe I missed something where you guys were all getting along well and chatting in a friendly sense, but focusing on people and arguing back and forth isn't helping your case or the quality of our site.

Chad

@jmac too late I think but problem solved

jmac

Now, if you find it fun (and @Chad and @enderland are enjoying the net-sparring), that's cool and you can continue. But I tend to find it more fun to actually build something of value, and learn some stuff in the process.

enderland

@jmac nah, I'm actually glad I was told I have no respect at this point - it means it's no longer worth my energy at all to even try to engage with someone. This saves me a lot of energy and time :)

Chad

@jmac I dont but ill continue to try to help as long as there is a hope of something good coming from it. Its clear thats not happening here so I am ending my participation with him

jmac

2:31 PM

@enderland Similar, but never with those specifics (there have been ones about dealing with illnesses, or time off for illnesses, but this one is more specific in that the illness interferes with time-sensitive tasks nobody else can handle)

enderland

I'm not here to make friends with everyone, I'm here to help make Workplace a valuable site. If I stand up for what I believe is required for site quality I'm bound to make enemies through that process and if I spend my entire tenure here trying to appease everyone, well, I'm going to hate this site

5

Chad

@enderland JINX :p

PaulDonny

@jmac Honestly, at one point they both did. I still upvote the majority of their answers honestly as they are extremely well though out answers. I just feel like they have a condescending attitude towards new members.

jmac

@PaulDonny to play devil's advocate, do you think that they may have the approach that they do for a reason? (not saying that they're right, just asking you to think about it)

PaulDonny

@jmac They've put a lot of time and effort into the site and most likely need a break, would be my opinion

enderland

2:33 PM

@PaulDonny you should search my comment history on this site, I probably make the most "welcome to the workplace!" comments of anyone excepting @jmort253. In fact I about said welcome to chat to @Zachiel when he/she joined chat about 10 min ago but literally the only reason I didn't was because I didn't want the timing of that to look silly

jmac

And have you considered that maybe it isn't that they aren't condescending toward new users so much as they are being condescending toward you? I have never seen them have issues with other new users.

enderland

Hi Banop, welcome to The Workplace. I removed some extra information from your question and added some tags - if you need to edit back information feel free. I'm not really sure this is the best place for this question, however. — enderland Apr 3 at 19:13

This is a GREAT answer. — enderland Mar 28 at 17:24

jmac

Again, I'm not saying that I approve of being rude, or that new users should be treated poorly. I am just trying to advocate taking a look at the situation more objectively, and to focus on what you want to get out of your participation here and figure out how best to accomplish that.

@Paul, Basically, to sum up:
1. Are Chad/enderland rude to all new users, or is it just you?
2. If it is just you, why do you think that is?
3. Is continuing this verbal sparring with them providing you or the site with value?
4. If not, what would?
5. Wouldn't it be more fun to do that instead?

Chad

@enderland Actually the question is about short term requests and unexpected illness... that is answerable

@enderland Wow you are a Jackass!

gnat

@enderland I for one am not going to give up no matter how uphill this battle is. I've got 2,5K rep meaning I can vote at least 2375 low quality answers until it's over. and when (if) it's over, no one will tell me I didn't try

Chad

2:40 PM

@gnat I wish we could get a horde of you to come in like we get the lemmings

enderland

@Chad I mean, it is frustrating to have someone come in here and throw out claims like "you're rude/condescending to new users" but at least all I have to do is scan through the dozens upon dozens of comments I make to new users welcoming them to the site, indicating they have great first post content, etc to not really feel overly offended...

jmac

@gnat You just have to get good at identifying potentially hot questions, and dropping an answer down there early. If you get it, it's 500 free rep (500 free downvotes!). No matter how bad the answer is

Chad

FWIW I get that there are some users that believe in the answer, those are not the lemmings, its the people that come from other sites see the highest voted answer and just upvote cause it looks reasonable. Those are the lemmings

Im not going to lie I think most of us with an answer over 50 votes have probably benefited from the lemmings too

gnat

@jmac I'll consider that as an option to "recharge" :)

enderland

@jmac generally you are better off with bad answers, as they are more digestable, just make sure they are "yeah!!!" worthy

jmac

2:43 PM

@gnat "Top-up your reputation with prepaid answers available at your local Hot List!"

2

Chad

@enderland Thats why I use the ignore feature. I have 2 people on ignore now

And lets face it, its pretty low company

jmac

I really have been lazy about queues as of late. I keep finding that when I dig in to the queues, I end up missing the obvious low-hanging fruit on the front page that isn't in a queue.

enderland

1

Q: How to professionally handle being unable to complete a request due to illness?

Whether it is a customer, a colleague or a superior, what is the most professional and least career-damaging way to explain a shortcoming or inability to handle a short term request due to having being unexpectedly ill? Maybe a deadline, replying to a specific question by a customer, something I...

professionalism sickness deadlines

jmac

I really appreciate folks like @CMW, who seem to tirelessly review stuff.

enderland

@Chad I edited that some

PaulDonny

2:45 PM

@jmac Sorry, I got busy. With Enderland I would presume it is mainly with me. The reason, as far as I know, he thinks I am trying to change the site. no, it's not really providing value at all and honestly I haven't tried to. I come here to messages that have been left for me from them.

enderland

-2

A: My boss wants to do personal activities together. How can I maintain work-life balance without negatively affecting our work relationship?

From the way you describe your workout routine, you don't work out with ANYONE. So, it's not just your boss. Your routine is your routine and your schedule is your schedule. You shouldn't make any changes in either your routine or your schedule just because he wants your company. I worked out pr...

jmac

@PaulDonny Want to really make them look silly? Take the high ground and stop responding and make the site better. Then they will have to accept (even grudgingly) that you have some great ideas and deserve respect.

Chad

@enderland I get it. It is why i have the other person on ignore and flag 100% of his comments I see just because they are offensive to me.

enderland

I don't understand this user at all, he (she?) indicates in the comments basically, "the actual question is too hard, so I answered an easier one"

@Chad no I mean this question - workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/22268/…

jmac

Just saying you will get a far far better reception if you work with the community rather than focusing on a back-and-forth that will raise hackles and not accomplish much.

Chad

2:48 PM

@enderland Ohh good edits

jmac

I mean, the whole meta post about Lemmings was actually a good one (I really liked it at any rate, even if it could have been a bit more objective in how it made its point). And that sort of contribution is grand!

enderland

@PaulDonny The reason I am frustrated with you has nothing to do with that. It has to do with that you are 1) inexperienced with SE (especially community moderation aspects), 2) inexperienced with this site, but more importantly 3) seem to reject any effort I have put towards helping you better see 1/2 in nearly all our conversations to date. The conversation yesterday for example felt like I was arguing against you, which basically felt like trying to convince you "1 plus 1 actually equals 2"

jmac

But the back in forth in here, especially when you look like you've got a grudge against specific users and throw very ... loaded ... phrases around at them, it is hurting your ability to get along and help us make the web a better place (which is what all of us are here for)

Zachiel

@enderland Sorry, I spaced out while wondering on 4 different .se sites at a time. Thank you

enderland

1

Q: How can I communicate better with co-worker who is older than me?

I've been working as a full-time software engineer in a company for more than a year and this is my first job. I have been working alone on a large scale maintaining project and there is a project manager beside me. Three months ago company hired an old employer who retired several years ago. he...

communication colleagues time-management

does this have a constructive question? It feels like a rant but I get the impression there is actually a good question buried in there

PaulDonny

2:50 PM

@enderland I am inexperienced with both enderland and have multiple times accepted that I was wrong with something here. I just don't like the condescending approach that you have had with it

jmac

@enderland Shave your head and grow a beard. Then nobody will know which one of you is older.

Especially if you're a woman.

@PaulDonny Just another piece of unsolicited advice. The net is a far better place if you assume good intention and read everything as if it has a smiley face afterward. You'll end up having much better interactions :)

enderland

@jmac I make this really easy for most people, though it's not after my messages technically but before them... ;)

jmac

@enderland relevant gravatar indeed.

enderland

@jmac you're just full of bright ideas.... (relevant gravatar :) hah)

jmac

(though to be honest, you intimidated me a bit at the start too. before the smiley face. that helped. also figuring out that it's just your communication style and you mean well)

PaulDonny

2:55 PM

@jmac The issue I have is it seems that my every action is being critiqued constantly. I wouldn't be bothered nearly as much if that was not occuring

jmac

@PaulDonny What would the ideal resolution look like to you? You've already said that you were wrong with many things you said, but you just don't like the condescension. So the issue isn't what is being said, it's how it's being said. And it's all been said already. Neither of them can take back their words, what are you trying to get by continuing to joust with them using words?

enderland

@Chad I think some "retired and working part time" people also have the "I don't care what you think and what are you going to do, fire me?" attitude

Chad

@enderland I dont think that is what is going on here.. but its possible.

3 quick sucky answers to that question now :(

enderland

I suspect this leads to the retiree complaining to the askers boss, and the asker being in a very difficult situation. — enderland 44 secs ago

yeah, strong arming the retiree (who has more connections than you) is a great strategy... :\

Chad

3:12 PM

@enderland I would protect that question but all 3 answerers are experienced users :(

If MP ever finds chat I will stop coming here

PaulDonny

@jmac Ideal resolution would it would be dropped completely and we all just move on with our business. I don't personally hold grudges. I just don't enjoy everything I do being criticized constantly because someone doesn't particularly like me.

Chad

I am really interested in that question. It might help us deal with a problem here too

enderland

@Chad I'm writing out an answer, actually, I've worked with someone similar to that (though not remote located)

Chad

I would note this part I talked my supervisor and he said they want me to find way to get along with him. So far everyone seemed to ignore that. So I edited the question and bolded that

enderland

man the asker of this question has burned all their bridges with this retiree...

PaulDonny

3:25 PM

Yeah, it's a tricky situation

Do what the retiree says and be personally responsible even if you knew it was wrong or do what you want while taking his suggestions and continue to burn bridges

Chad

@enderland Yeah I hate to say it but the only route I see for salvaging anything is to start with appeasement

I am not a big fan of appeasement though and when someone starts doing it to me I feel disrespected.

enderland

there isa difference between "we clearly have communication problems" and "please accept my forgiveness!"

enderland

3:44 PM

woah that's a jmac length answer! :P

Chad

?

enderland

The asker lives in Canada according to his/her profile. — enderland 9 secs ago

seriously. this person is cancer to this site at this rate

Chad

@enderland Completely agree

enderland

4:01 PM

I wish the way rep worked better discouraged people from posting bad content

Chad

4:16 PM

@enderland I agree, down votes should be progressive.

first couple are pretty painless but after that it should start to really hurt.

maybe make it (-1)2^(#ofdv-1)

Chad

4:28 PM

is the bad answers the sign of a bad question? Because I think its a good question But the number of bad answers makes me wonder if I need to revisit that

enderland

its been a while since I hit the rep cap, but pretty sure today is going to be hitting it

Chad

@PaulDonny You made it personal... If everything or even just select things you are doing is being criticized by my self or enderland it is because we have specific issues with those posts.

It has nothing to do with you personally.

CMW

@jmac Thank you :) I really enjoy caring for this site. So much valuable information and despite some isolated cases, a really really positive crowd

enderland

0

Q: If someone wants to work in senior management, is it more valuable to demonstrate functional experience vs purely managerial experience?

When applying for roles in senior management, or when hoping to get promoted there soon, is it more valuable to demonstrate subject expertise and tenure in a specific functional area (e.g. operations, marketing, product, finance, etc.) as expressed by years of experience, breadth of knowledge and...

career-development

how many questions has this person asked on different accounts, seriously, we are up to at least 3?

CMW

by my last count a couple months(!!) ago, we had 5 different AntarcticGorillas

then some got merged/deleted

1

A: If someone wants to work in senior management, is it more valuable to demonstrate functional experience vs purely managerial experience?

You are asking a really broad question, then expecting a one-size-fits-all answer, which I think is a crazily unrealistic expectation, given that say a multinational oil company is organized differently from a say a defense contractor or say a major brokerage and they have different managerial n...

Chad

4:46 PM

@CMW Are you saying im a grumpy bastard?

CMW

A whole 9-line paragraph on how we can't answer that question. then two lines of answer.

@Chad I would never say that!

Chad

@CMW Why not its true

CMW

Implying, now that's another thing entirely...

;-)

enderland

@CMW funny you guys were talking about that here, I just posted on meta - meta.workplace.stackexchange.com/q/2546/2322

CMW

4 again?

Chad

4:49 PM

@enderland We need to get teh answer ban script here...

CMW

I absolutely recognize gorillas' problem and would love to help them but that into a workable question, but there's just no conversation possible

enderland

I'm sure I missed one or two of those

CMW

oh. unregistered users don't show up in the users search, right?

Chad

From now on I will post only answers that are tangentally related to the subject asked about in any given question...

CMW

ideally, make them tangentially related only to the additional detail typically given in the question, not even to the question itself

:)

that seems to work well

Stack Exchange

5:06 PM

0

Q: Is there any way to merge accounts which are unregistered?

A user has asked a lot of questions here without registering: What questions can I expect in a mid/senior management level interview? If someone wants to work in senior management, is it more valuable to demonstrate functional experience vs purely managerial experience? What's the value of tech...

discussion unregistered-accounts

Chad

@CMW So if someone asks about the interview process an MNC Ill post a diatribe about how MNC's are taking over and how people need to learn to deal with them.

Jim G.

5:34 PM

*comments removed*: I removed the comments because they were turning into personal attacks. Please remember our site's be nice rule and be civil. With that said, I edited in some information from the comments that are helpful in supporting this answer. Hope this helps. — jmort253 ♦ Apr 1 at 1:34

^^^ Oh my.

Can we please be civil?

enderland

6:05 PM

►

PaulDonny

@Chad Referring to me?

enderland

@PaulDonny no

Chad

@enderland I wish I could

There is no attempt to improve anything here... the comments are merely intended to stir the pot... thats all his comments are ever intended to do

that or gain credit for being a great person and upvoting because he cant just upvote and not get credit for doing it

enderland

Just make no effort to interact at all...

@Chad community.secondlife.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/…

Chad

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trollslayer <-- WTB

enderland

6:16 PM

@Chad I know SE is between a rock and a hard place, but their lackluster response to an email I sent them before choosing ultimately not to run for moderator kinda makes me realize it's pointless to even care

enderland

6:50 PM

9

Q: How can I communicate better with co-worker that is not a good listener

I've been working as a full-time software engineer in a company for more than a year and this is my first job. I have been working alone on a large scale maintaining project and there is a project manager beside me. Three months ago company hired an old employer who retired several years ago. he...

communication colleagues time-management

This is well on the way to community wiki. is it time we open up the threshold for CW here?

Chad

7:05 PM

@enderland the problem I have is protecting it would only have stopped one answer...

there are 6 answers by my count that should never have been posted.

enderland

yeah

RhysW

7:25 PM

2

Q: Is it alright to let everyone in the company know that I am the "go-to" person, and not my new senior colleague?

Is it fine to make myself visible in the company when, in fact, I have more experience and know-how than my new senior colleague? The reason I do this is that he was "appointed from above" and is trying to get all credit for what I do as well as the team I manage. He is with us since just a few ...