The Whiteboard

user55340

9:00 PM

@GlenH7 I still like the soda transformation that you, Jimmy and I did awhile back.

user41796

@MichaelT we have our moments... But no diamonds. Just italics.

user41796

I'm going to miss the unseasonably warm weather we had last weekend.

user20683

Some of us do follow things

user41796

Some trails are easier to hunt down than others. And I was able to answer my curiosity about who had the pleasure of cleaning things up.

user55340

@WorldEngineer Yep. Just Thomas makes his sighs at us keeping the transcript clean known.

user55340

9:06 PM

Which kind of makes it all the more fun to do.

user41796

I kind of think I should remove my comment as it likely won't be well received. OTOH, it's a good comment for any future visitors to take a step back and rethink what they think is happening.

user20683

@MichaelT ENTJ (him) vs ENTP (me) :P

user15026

@GlenH7 I think it is a good comment, considering the situation.

user41796

@WorldEngineer INTJ FTW!

user20683

@GlenH7 You and Maple_shaft

user20683

9:11 PM

I believe @AshleyNunn is an ISFP as I remember it

user55340

INT? for me (last time I poked at that test it was 50/50 J/P)

user41796

@WorldEngineer we likes our solitudes.

user15026

@WorldEngineer Oh thank god I was trying to remember and couldn't. :D

user41796

@MichaelT I'm pretty much on the border for all 4 categories

user20683

@GlenH7 I'm only very mildly extroverted

user55340

9:12 PM

@GlenH7 Pure neutral! Oh wait... thats RPG.SE...

user41796

@MichaelT possibly neutral good (AD&D...)

user15026

I think all of mine are pretty clear-set.

user20683

Mine is something like 15% E, 100% N, 50% T, and 30% P

user20683

I love being around people but I'm not hugely expressive

user20683

So I tend to get labeled introvert

user20683

9:15 PM

it also explains why I try to learn like 3 or 4 languages at a time

user55340

mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm - Explorer (major) achiever (minor)

user41796

@MichaelT curse you - putting up more and more interesting things to keep reading...

user55340

Ok... don't look at mud.co.uk/richard/spellbnd.htm then.

enderland

do you guys even work? lol

user55340

@enderland I fought with gson serilization for the last day. I need to think something else.

enderland

9:19 PM

INTJ ftw

user20683

INTJ shows up a bunch in programming.

user20683

I suspect my ideal career is Developer Evangelist

user55340

(btw, lost... turned out the "need to do this" is in the 2.3+ version, we're at 1.7 and I'm not about to upgrade what might be a breaking change)

enderland

I'm an I with a very, very, VERY good ability to be E when needed

user41796

@enderland been knocking out javascript tutorials today. I need to find a good angular.js SPA quick start

enderland

9:21 PM

I kid, I kid

myers briggs is fascinating

ISFP's are interesting too...

user20683

@GlenH7

user20683

stackoverflow.com/tags/angularjs/info

user41796

@WorldEngineer you rock. Why didn't I think of that?

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 Yeesh, everybody's talking about angular around me today... and I was trying to get that going myself as of just the other day...

user20683

@GlenH7 Because I have ideas by the bushel and you finish them off with an axe.

user41796

9:24 PM

@WorldEngineer Sorry, it's the J in me.

user20683

@GlenH7 no apology necessary

user41796

I should go do some delete-votes-as-therapy....

enderland

>.> that's not what J vs P means :P

user41796

@enderland pfff... works well enough for me. :-)

user55340

@GlenH7 Lot of ones out there...

gnat

9:35 PM

@MichaelT that should explain similarity of our voting patterns. :) If memory serves, mine is only slightly tilted to J

user55340

MSO request: "Add an optional personality drop down, collect data on voting patterns, give to some psychologist to analyze..." watch hilarity on MSO ensue?

2

Robert Harvey

Anemic Data Models rear their ugly head again.

0

Q: Do RESTful APIs tend to encourage anemic domain models?

I'm working on a project in which we are trying to apply both domain-driven design and REST to a service-oriented architecture. We aren't worrying about 100% REST compliance; it would probably be better to say we are trying to build resource-oriented HTTP APIs (~Level 2 of Richardson's REST matur...

Why do I get the feeling that this is a tempest in a teapot? Martin Fowler rails about how bad this is in his article, but then does some hand-waving at the end implying that it may not matter for disparate systems connected together.

Then everyone gets to wring their hands about how their CRUD methods are "bad practice."

user41796

@RobertHarvey Fowler needs views to help sustain what he does

user55340

I really need to write that "(dis)prove blog post" meta question...

user41796

This dynamic type stuff (JavaScript) is hurting my prefers-to-be-statically-typed brain.

user20683

9:40 PM

@GlenH7 Javascript is weakly typed to boot

user41796

Create a function; give it anything; cross your fingers and hope!

user55340

@GlenH7 I grew up with perl... dynamic types don't make me sad, but rather revel in the possibilities... and be very disciplined in execution.

user20683

@GlenH7 kinda. There are tricks to ensure types

Robert Harvey

typescriptlang.org

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey yuck get it away get it away!

Robert Harvey

9:42 PM

lol

Let's write our own strongly-typed language that compiles to asm.js.

Jimmy Hoffa

clojurescriptone.com

ahh I feel better now

gnat

@RobertHarvey I hate you for not editing great comments into the answer :)

I read through martinfowler.com/articles/richardsonMaturityModel.html. You can get to level 3 without ever concerning yourself about "Anemic Domain Models." Remember, you're never going to transfer behavior to the browser (unless you plan on injecting some Javascript through your models). — Robert Harvey 10 mins ago

user41796

@JimmyHoffa why the strong reaction? (I'm a bit slower than normal today)

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 typescript is "Hey guys look we solved JavaScript's problems: We turned it into Java!"

user41796

@JimmyHoffa Um.... Not seeing the downside yet. :-)

Robert Harvey

9:45 PM

@JimmyHoffa More like C#

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey I know but same thing

user41796

okay, so they are shoe-horning the language into something it wasn't designed for

user20683

@GlenH7 There are two approaches to Javascript: Try to use it like Java or use it like Scheme

Jimmy Hoffa

JavaScript is a nice functional language, trying to turn it into a clunky OO language as everyone wants so badly is just...annoying

user20683

Jimmy and I are in the latter camp

Jimmy Hoffa

9:45 PM

@GlenH7 Nah, more that it's a better language than Java

user41796

@WorldEngineer I need an approach that isn't going to explode when we start creating a bazillion models

user55340

Javascript is a language. Write javascript.

Robert Harvey

JavaScript is a nice functional language -- Except when it's not.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey Except when people try to write it like an OO language

then they get all miffed

"ahh the type system doesn't behave right :(" -> Write untyped lambda calculus in JavaScript, no more problems

Robert Harvey

WAT

Jimmy Hoffa

9:47 PM

10 secs ago, by Jimmy Hoffa

"ahh the type system doesn't behave right :(" -> Write untyped lambda calculus in JavaScript, no more problems

I've seen that it's funny that's great it has a stupid type system but I just don't care about it's type system, I never use it.

It is a bad type system, but who cares, it doesn't need one.

user20683

@GlenH7 Angular is declarative. My understanding is that you should avoid using jQuery with it.

gnat

@JimmyHoffa "better language than Java" = any language

user41796

@WorldEngineer hadn't heard of any major issues from the conference I was at. You need to be selective in what you use jQuery for, yes.

gnat

you mean, bashing Java? — gnat Apr 13 '13 at 13:06

user41796

biggest takeaway I got was being careful with jQuery and to avoid touching the DOM all the time.

Jimmy Hoffa

9:49 PM

@GlenH7 be careful all the time, or be careful doing it all the time?

gnat

wow. Just... wow

-1

Q: List and explain 10 reason for the choice of C++ compared to other object oriented programming language?

List and explain 10 reasons for the choice of C++ compared to other object oriented programming language?

c++

user20683

List and a homework question I bet

user41796

@gnat I won the race - I got in before the insta-close!

user55340

@gnat -5, 4x close votes, 5 views (as of my screen shot).

gnat

Bleh! Leave this for Robert to deal with.

Nov 21 '13 at 20:08, 3 minutes total – 6 messages, 3 users, 1 star

Bookmarked Nov 23 '13 at 23:58 by MichaelT

user41796

9:51 PM

@JimmyHoffa jQuery makes it really easy to keep touching the DOM and therefore blow performance since the browser has to recalculate things each time the DOM is touched. Better to make all of the changes at once instead of through a loop.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 Agreed, was just curious of the specifics of what you meant there

besides that with angular ideally you shouldn't need jquery much at all for the DOM; the DOM changes should all be handled by bound templates as you change the backing object model

user41796

Most everyone thought jQuery was still very useful and powerful. You just need to be mindful of the far-reaching effects it can have.

Jimmy Hoffa

I would suspect you use JQuery then for other stuff like making http requests and other such

user20683

jquery is a monad, of course it has far reaching effects :P

user41796

@WorldEngineer thank you for warning me before I sullied my hands.

enderland

9:58 PM

@gnat that question was good man, why the hatin'

user41796

@enderland flags as offensive....

Robert Harvey

Yeah, man, that's pretty lame, dood.

Karl Bielefeldt

@WorldEngineer I'd hate to be in that class. I could maybe come up with 3 or 4 reasons, and I like C++.

user41796

@KarlBielefeldt I think you have to hate C++ before you can really appreciate all of its advantages over other languages.

user20683

@KarlBielefeldt RAII would be reason #1 but I know relatively little about C++

Jimmy Hoffa

10:07 PM

@KarlBielefeldt Commonly known lie, nobody likes C++, it's just one of those things people say like "Do you want fries with that?"

Karl Bielefeldt

@JimmyHoffa Don't get me wrong. There are several languages I like more.

user41796

RAII is one;
pointers would be another;
straight-forward (enough) integration with C;
can be used to write low-level software;

user41796

wide platform availability

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 Sucks; (no it's a benefit really, some people really like using crappy languages, I have NO idea why, I suspect it's because of bad management)

Oh and the toolchain, no other language has a toolchain like that.. yeah, not a single one... how about that...

user41796

@JimmyHoffa sometimes there just weren't any other alternatives to go with and now the codebase is too large. But for that matter, COBOL and FORTRAN are still being actively written.

user41796

10:10 PM

@JimmyHoffa blasphemer.

user41796

You can grok Haskell, but you can't grok the C++ toolchain?

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 Haskell can't grok the C++ toolchain

user20683

wide range of possible subset styles

user20683

C with classes to Templates and everything in between

Karl Bielefeldt

@JimmyHoffa There's some truth in that. One reason I like programming is because not very many people can do it. C++ programming even more so.

Jimmy Hoffa

10:11 PM

@WorldEngineer Oh yeah, so you're never wanting for an angle to tell someone their code sucks from

user41796

@JimmyHoffa You say that like it's a bad thing, but I'm thinking it's a very good thing :-D

Jimmy Hoffa

@KarlBielefeldt I wouldn't go that far, last time I checked every tom dick and harry will tell you they liked programming and took a class in school

judging by some of the C++ I've seen floating the world over I suspect many of them were writing exactly that :P

user41796

@KarlBielefeldt If you can go where others can't, then you'll always have solid job security.

enderland

people can like it and still suck at it

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 I knew there was a benefit to being short!

gnat

10:14 PM

sudden increases in my rep mean someone is crawling 10K tools. +4 back in about 5 minutes, not bad. Guy who revenge voted me today gotta hate you @GlenH7

11 hours ago, by gnat

user41796

@gnat You're welcome. Would you like some retaliatory down-votes for grins?

gnat

@GlenH7 I am supposed to be scared :)

11 hours ago, by gnat

revenge downvotes look pretty funny in my rep tab...

user41796

we had / have a backlog of unsalvageable crap in the delete "queue"

user41796

@gnat Don't pretend. All of us know you only do it for the rep.

Robert Harvey

Bah. Everyone upvotes the Eric Lippert answer because he's Eric Lippert.

Jimmy Hoffa

10:17 PM

@GlenH7 1010 rep and I will turn screens pink.

Robert Harvey

Shiny, shiny rep. My precious.

2

user41796

@JimmyHoffa I was ruminating about that - I really wish they'd implement the crimson feature request

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey and you don't enjoy the same type of 'he must be right' voting with your 260k? ;P

user20683

@GlenH7 I'll go take a look at that list

user41796

@WorldEngineer As much as I malign our Community mod, it would have gotten around to several of those within a few days. But I needed my delete therapy.

user20683

10:18 PM

@GlenH7 It

user41796

But there are quite a few more in there that are ready to go

user20683

Community is a bot

Robert Harvey

@JimmyHoffa Eric Lippert gets my upvotes because his answers are generally correct and comprehensive, and he explains why he is correct, with a lot of understandable detail. His hotel room metaphor for safe memory access is priceless.

user20683

@RobertHarvey Likewise.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey also let's be honest here, read both answers, which one reads more clearly? Eric's mainly a dick not for having a recognizable name so much as having a communication skill that could teach monads to orphanned sudanese cobol programmers.

user41796

10:19 PM

@WorldEngineer yes, but that gets in the way of my stealth campaign for mod by railing against the evils of Community.

user20683

Same reason I tend to upvote Norman Ramsay on SO

user20683

he's comprehensive and knows how to explain things in both the broad and the narrow

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey the irony of that question is with all the big talk from big names, the 1 rep guy actually wrote a very small succinct answer that kind of says the same thing everyone else is saying in a considerably more straight forward way heh

user41796

@JimmyHoffa sometimes less is just less though

user20683

@JimmyHoffa incidently, what's the best guide you've found to Lambda Calculus? I know of the Alligator game

gnat

10:28 PM

@GlenH7 of course this is not so. I just like rep indicator blinks

24

A: Is there a way to turn off this disturbing green light from the status bar?

For a serial answers downvoter like me, this friggin' light turns on every time next piece of garbage is removed from the site (happens quite frequently). I am of course glad that site gets rid of low quality content, but not to extent to celebrate it with obtrusive green fireworks every minute ...

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer The alligator game is just fun for giving younger folks a way to create abstractions and work them out, I've picked up a lot of lambda stuff just from wikipedia, but I've always been a reference-learner far more than a guided-learner which makes me take things in very differently than most so I don't know

user20683

21

Q: New login & signup pathway for the Stack Exchange network

We will be rolling out a new, fully re-factored and redesigned login & signup pathway on Meta tomorrow morning, just missing Marc's estimate of 6-8 weeks back in October. As many of you are aware, our current design has been around for years. To keep everything secure, we had to use iframes a...

discussion featured login openid announcements

Robert Harvey

@JimmyHoffa What he says is correct, but he provides no context or examples. You kinda have to take his word for it.

In other words, if you already know what he says, you nod your head in agreement, and if you don't, you're kinda no better off.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey I get that, I just find it funny

gnat

I'm curious if HandleSuccess is still around in the new pathway? — GSerg 2 hours ago

18

Q: Why is the HandleSuccess method such a terrible one?

As per this tweet by Jason Punyon, I was kind of wondering if any of the SO devs could elaborate a little on why exactly this method is so terrible/hard to refactor? A few choice words about HandleSuccess from the #stackoverflow chat rooms. I do not know what the HandleSuccess method...

discussion

Robert Harvey

10:33 PM

@gnat I suspect that it is. Otherwise, it would have been six to eight months instead of six to eight weeks.

gnat

@GSerg Nobody was brave enough to re-factor HandleSuccess — Jeremy Tunnell 1 hour ago

MSO instinctive downvoters on the ride...

-3

Q: The great experiment on Stack Overflow

Since November I have created this "secret" persona in which I went all out: New email address New jsfiddle account New github account Permission from the Stack Exchange team to run my experiment ... And so much more! Why did I do this? This was an experiment if people can treat a brand new...

discussion new-users user-accounts merge-accounts

good question, bad score - +7 / -10. All 10 of 'em

Robert Harvey

The Neal? The one with a Gravatar that looked like a selfie after a really brutal party? (had a shower cap on)

gnat

worth noting: "Permission from the Stack Exchange team to run my experiment" — gnat 1 min ago

user41796

I have often wondered about what that type of an experiment would find. From skimming the conversations, I can't tell if he specifically tried to present different personalities or not.

Robert Harvey

He already has different personalities.

user41796

10:45 PM

@RobertHarvey more power to him. it's hard enough for me to keep one up and running on a regular basis

gnat

Happy New Year @DocBrown! Some of the things you suggest already exist. For example, there's a big message at the top encouraging brand new users to take a tour of our about page. But, it isn't really working for most of our new users, is it? To see exactly what a new user sees, you could register a new account and try to post a question and answer. — Yannis Rizos Jan 1 at 17:44

"To see exactly what a new user sees, you could register a new account and try to post a question and answer." - to me, this alone justifies experimenting (assuming no cross-voting of course)

user41796

@gnat la la la la we can't hear you.

gnat

@GlenH7 there's no gnat anymore, I am registering new account

oh wait aren't you my second account?

or was it MichaelT?

hard to tell

all INTJs here are really one person

including INT?s

user41796

@gnat It would be one way to test the suggested edit review queue....

user41796

Just make sure you don't vote or review stuff you did with your sock puppet.

gnat

10:57 PM

@GlenH7 oh but I did that already (reviewed own edit submitted from anonymous account) - programmers.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/47471 - note the edit comment :)

29

A: How do you earn the "I'm Not Listening" hat?

Indeed, you need to turn a deaf ear towards something. If you really want to know, listen carefully to the spoiler below:

user41796

@gnat but that's for hats. Hats are different.

user41796

And besides, we all know I'm the one with a hat problem...

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer Why do you ask? Simple google finds a variety of explanations, it doesn't take much of an explanation:

> <expression> := <name> | <function> | <application>
> <function> := \<name>.<expression>
> <application> := <expression><expression>
> An expression can be surrounded with parenthesis for clarity, that is, if E is an expression, (E) is the same expression. The only keywords used in the language are and the dot. In order to avoid cluttering expressions with parenthesis, we adopt the convention that function application associates from the left

from utdallas.edu/~gupta/courses/apl/lambda.pdf

Beyond that quote, there's really not much to explain...

(stupid lambda symbol didn't translate from my copy-paste, just imagine a lambda there where I put a \ )

> [...] The only keywords used in the language are (lambda) and the dot. [...]

gnat

11:18 PM

@GlenH7 "nobody's perfect". Some are elitist assholes and Internet cops

Jimmy Hoffa

@gnat whoa whoa whoa now, I think you're driving dangerously close to the speed limit on that one, I'm gonna have to see your license and registration....

gnat

@JimmyHoffa "45 1/2 in a 45 mph zone" => death sentence, immediately

Jimmy Hoffa

@gnat Why else do we internet cops always carry a hand axe?

gnat

@JimmyHoffa +1010 rep will get you additional BFG besides that axe

1 hour ago, by Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 1010 rep and I will turn screens pink.

Jimmy Hoffa

11:39 PM

@WorldEngineer as you interest in UI, have a look at this

►

Matt D

that guy needs to hire a narrator

Jimmy Hoffa

@MattD hahaha yeah

psr

@JimmyHoffa It appears the FCC can still classify telecom companies as common carriers for internet, which they so clearly are. They have avoided doing so to favor the telecom companies. This sort of forces them to go one way or the other. But losing internet neutrality would be an unequivocal disaster to anyone who doesn't happen to be an internet carrier.

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr Yeah. If the FCC does however go that way the political fallout will be screaming blood curdles from many politicians and likely investigations called and legislation attempted to pass (likely passed in the house)

Matt D

@JimmyHoffa ok i cant listen to that anymore

whats happening with legislation on net neutrality?

are they siding with the cable companies?

Jimmy Hoffa

11:44 PM

@MattD haha yes. I didn't listen to much of it.

6

Q: What is Differential Execution?

I stumbled upon a question - How does Differential Execution Work?. Which has a VERY long and detailed answer. All of it made sense... but when I was done I still have no idea what the heck Differential Execution actually is.

language-agnostic differential-execution

reading his answers on SO were more helpful but the video in that actually is interesting in kind of giving a bit clearer understanding

6 hours ago, by Jimmy Hoffa

http://gizmodo.com/federal-court-invalidates-net-neutrality-rules-sides-w-150102‌8467

Matt D

ok. so its basically a state kinda thing

Jimmy Hoffa

6 hours ago, by Jimmy Hoffa

> A U.S. Appeals Court just invalidated the FCC's net neutrality rules that would've made it illegal for telecom companies to favor certain types of traffic over others. The court ruled that the commission lacked the authority to implement and enforce such rules which were embedded in a complicated legal framework.

Matt D

oh dear

Jimmy Hoffa

@MattD Basically they said the FCC cannot currently regulate broadband providers because the FCC hasn't classified them as "Common Carriers" (like utility companies)

Matt D

this is, a pretty neat way to censor the net without actually censoring the net...

Jimmy Hoffa

11:46 PM

@MattD It's less about censorship but yeah that will be up for sale

Matt D

well, this will have interesting impacts

none of them will be good mind you

Jimmy Hoffa

People will immediately go to the "Woot, I pay verizon $20 more a month and the traffic to my site gets faster from all verizon broadband users!" but the inevitable end result is also "Woot, I pay verizon $20 more a month and the traffic to competitors sites will get slower from all verizon broadband users!"

and more than anything though there's the "Woot, I'm Verizon and this legislator is attacking the FCC, I will block his political competitors website completely for all my internet users!"

Matt D

also, it makes routing an interesting problem

Jimmy Hoffa

"Woot, I'm verizon! My internet users cannot access Comcast.com!"

Matt D

well, they can, just VERY SLOWLY

"wow comcast is so slow, they must suck more than verizon!"

Jimmy Hoffa

11:48 PM

@MattD No regulation says they must make it available. They could replace it wholesale with a fake website

Matt D

its probably illegal to block them entirely

Jimmy Hoffa

they could redirect it to verizon.com

basically the court ruling said more or less "There is no regulating body for broadband internet."

Matt D

so, what happens now. do they make one?

or do things get really shit really fast?

Jimmy Hoffa

the FCC has to reclassify broadband internet to being a "Common Carrier" then they can regulate it

Matt D

can you choose a provider who is regulated?

and will that reclassification actually happen?

Jimmy Hoffa

11:50 PM

If Verizon and Comcast go bonkers immediately, there will so much blowback none of the politicians will be able to stand up against that reclassification, right now though if the FCC tries to do that I'm sure politicians everywhere will say "Whoa whoa whoa, this is anti-market economics here this is bad for the whole economy!!"

Matt D

when its actually pro level playing field

ah i love politics

i wonder if i can get internet without hitting verizon or comcast

Jimmy Hoffa

politicians would have a harder time doing that if they start getting bombarded from their constituents about bad business practices from comcast or verizon etc, so the "really fast" nah, just inch shittier over time so constituents don't notice all at once

Matt D

where this will get really interesting is that they could "blackmail" cloud providers for faster access

Jimmy Hoffa

@MattD yeah, lots of things like that

Hulu and NetFlix are already throttled, this will give them leverage to make it even worse

Matt D

actually, that means that the big boys will be lobbying to ensure that neutrality is kept

Jimmy Hoffa

11:52 PM

after all every hulu and netflix subscriber is one more person not using verizon or comcast's TV

Matt D

fun times

so who's an internet provider who isnt comcast or verizon?

Jimmy Hoffa

@MattD timewarner, and centurylink, other than that...shrug

roadrunner which is timewarner now

Matt D

google in some cities

Jimmy Hoffa

(I think?)

@MattD hardly. like one or two.

Matt D

att maybe?

Jimmy Hoffa

11:54 PM

@MattD that's centurylink

the big companies all gobbled up the small ones

Matt D

ah

Jimmy Hoffa

This is history repeating itself

Matt D

always does

Jimmy Hoffa

Breakup of the Bell System

The breakup of the Bell System was mandated on January 8, 1982, by an agreed consent decree providing that AT&T Corporation would, as had been initially proposed by AT&T, relinquish control of the Bell Operating Companies that had provided local telephone service in the United States up until that point. This effectively took the monopoly that was the Bell System, and split it into entirely separate companies which would continue to provide telephone service. AT&T would continue to be a provider of long distance service, while the now independent Regional Bell Operating Companies (RBOCs) w...

Have a read there of the last time this happened, not altogether long ago: Telcos built locally, grew and grew and grew, bought nearby local telcos, and more and more until they all conglomerate to have one telco that has merged together every other local telco

The political landscape and tilt of the country was totally different then though, the DOJ went in and said it was an illegal monopoly and forced the telco to break itself up into the "baby bells" (such as AT&T, USWest, and varied others)

Matt D

yes.

i remember it

im old remember ;)

Jimmy Hoffa

11:56 PM

@MattD But you're foreign too, no?

Matt D

even though i was 5 when it happened

haha. we do pay attention to what happens in the us you know ;)

Jimmy Hoffa

@MattD I'm sure to an extent, but I try not to presume every country revolves around the US heh

Matt D

i worked in telco billing for 7 years. so, yeah. I've read the history

also, US telco billing is utterly hilariously insane.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MattD No chit...

Matt D

actually anything to do with tax, or purchasing something in the US is hilariously insane

so, your call gets routed through WA, to OR, to somewhere else. well you'll need to pay state tax on all the nodes your call gets routed through

Jimmy Hoffa

11:58 PM

We need another baby bell moment so damned bad regarding the broadband and cell carriers both, but corporations have their tentacles into our politics wayy too deeply these days, we don't have the backbone to buck them anymore

jmac

Most public utilities end up merging if you look historically. Trains, electricity, telecommunications -- the economies of scale are just so much better when you own more that it'd be silly not to merge.

Matt D

it appears that major corporations have their tentacles into your political system.

jmac

Whether or not that is good for the customers is debatable, though the reverse isn't always the greatest (see California electricity market deregulation and Enron)

Jimmy Hoffa

@jmac Of course, I get that, but the end-result is bad for consumers as a whole which at that scale is bad for GDP and countries

Bleh! Leave this for Robert to deal with.

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