The Whiteboard

user41796

8:01 PM

@Ampt - sparticus is no more?

gnat

@GlenH7 who's sparticus?

how can I ignore myself in chat? would be great question at MSO

enderland

I AM SPARTICUS

user41796

@gnat Sorry, just stepped through the portal. Never-mind all that. If I'm lucky, other things will be better in this dimension as well.

Joe

Hello guys.

Ampt

@GlenH7 Finally got around to changing it back ;)

Joe

8:07 PM

@enderland Isn't it Spartacus?

Ampt

@Joe Glad no one noticed that one while it was changed

Joe

I need to cross the 200 point threshold. I can't comment on other SO sites.

Ampt

@enderland Did you just get a ping from World too? I wonder how he did that without being online

I'm an idiot

user41796

@Joe I thought 50 was for comment everywhere

user41796

@Ampt What will be even more amazing is when you drop out of chat for being suspended. We'll have NO IDEA how World did that while being offline.

Joe

8:11 PM

@GlenH7 I can't comment here for some reason: answers.onstartups.com the setup says that once you cross 200, you get +100 on all other SO sites.

enderland

8

Q: Good luck everyone

According to this Meta post, this site will close sometime today. I'd just like to thank everyone who has posted here, as I have learnt a lot. I'd especially like to thank the generous people who upvoted my answers and comments. I'm sad to see this site go, but I understand the reasons (overzea...

discussion

startups might be messed up

the site is going to be closed in the near future...

user41796

@Joe I just signed up and dropped a comment into a question.

user41796

But I got the 101 association rep bonus by signing in there.

user41796

@enderland Thought it was a different site they were taking down last week. Or do I have my universes out of whack? Frack, which portal was it that I took?

enderland

I'm just waiting till workplace gets axed and makes me cry a little

Joe

8:16 PM

@GlenH7 You're 18.7k. Did you get any starting points when signing up?

user41796

@Joe you don't have 200 rep on any of the sites, so you're not getting the association bonus

user41796

@Joe only in chat... :-) Yes, I got an association bonus at onstartups from my 200+ rep accounts on other sites when I joined.

Joe

@GlenH7 I've only been on this part of SE for a couple of days, so my points are accumulating quick. Beyond 200, I don't care, so long as I can answer without restrictions. At SO, I can't compete in the rat race to answer questions.

Jimmy Hoffa

8

Q: Good luck everyone

According to this Meta post, this site will close sometime today. I'd just like to thank everyone who has posted here, as I have learnt a lot. I'd especially like to thank the generous people who upvoted my answers and comments. I'm sad to see this site go, but I understand the reasons (overzea...

discussion

The real problem has been that most people only come on to ask one question and then go and don't come back - they don't upvote answers, they don't choose the best answer etc which then breaks the community. This site has always been lots of one off questions and then a handful of regular answering most the questions which is not healthy — bhttoan Nov 14 at 12:48

What a surprise, an SE site which will attract-the-hell out of "Idea men" results in people posting half-fed questions and then disappearing

Joe

@JimmyHoffa Sounds pretty much like people answering realized they were just being used like tools by others.

Jimmy Hoffa

8:18 PM

Sounds like every marketing department I've ever worked with.

Ampt

The entrepreneurial community is an odd one for sure.

user41796

@enderland pretty unlikely. Stats for TW keep improving, don't they?

enderland

Probably, I'm not sure actually

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland have a peek at the quantcast numbers

Joe

@Ampt A forum setup is better, but it still won't change the fact that people will use others.

user55340

8:19 PM

591

The Workplace – workplace.stackexchange.com

Beta Q&A site for members of the workforce navigating the professional setting.

Currently in public beta.

user55340

They're just a bit low on questions per day, but otherwise they look ok.

Ampt

@Joe I don't think its the medium, it's the community

user55340

@GlenH7 You challenge my google-fu. Foolish mortal.

2

Ampt

imho anyway

user41796

@MichaelT could you find the one for startups? Or was that a Joel-backed-so-we-don't-need-no-stinking-proposal.

Joe

8:20 PM

Look how many legal questions are on there, they all require legal expertise, but most of these guys would never fork out the $75 dollar lawyer consultation or even read up the laws on their own.

user55340

1158

Startup Business – answers.onstartups.com

Beta Q&A site for entrepreneurs looking to start a new business, or running a new business, and looking for help.

Currently in public beta.

Ampt

@MichaelT Teach me sensei

user41796

@Joe $75?!? A good IP attorney will run you at least $300/hr.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT People should know better than to ever challenge the search skills of a perlist...

user20683

On Startups is one of the oldest of the SE sites. It was a 1.0 site.

Joe

8:21 PM

@GlenH7 That's partly my point. these guys won't even fork out money for the bottom-scraper attorneys :'D

enderland

aww I'll never know what @GlenH7 commented. :itsamystery:

user55340

@WorldEngineer I think CR is old too...

user20683

When SE 2.0 launched, those sites that where 1.0 were given the choice of remaining indie and being unsupported by SE or being subject to SE's rules.

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer I still think it's kind of an obvious case of "What kind of people would fill a community about startups?" -- The kind who aren't going to take care of their site; couldn't have seen that coming... :o

user55340

@enderland comparing the two, you've got 50% more questions/day than they do, and 3x more visits/day. Other stats are similar.

user55340

8:23 PM

(workplace has 10k visits/day and 1.5k is considered good)

enderland

huh. good to know - I'm mildly pessimistic about our future tbh but who knows

user55340

One big point compare is the number of users with specific rep. TW has 44 users with > 3k rep while startups had 34 (despite being 2x older)... and 72 users with 2k rep while startups had 58 users...

Joe

techcrunch.com/2013/11/22/… : beats watching fixed sports matches

user20683

@JimmyHoffa given that "start-up" is often code for 3 college grads in San Francisco with a good sales pitch and a idea that's only relevant to the Ivy League set...

user55340

@enderland Just need to beg the mods here to migrate more junk to your site...

Jimmy Hoffa

8:24 PM

Speaking of, CR has been improving for quite a while and now it's actually in solid standing! I think I recall hearing recently people believe it will go full-term sometime in the future, and with the looks of this hopefully not much longer!

enderland

@MichaelT we don't have to beg anyone, lol we get plenty without it

user55340

1038

Code Review – codereview.stackexchange.com

Beta Q&A site for feedback on projects you're working on, by sharing your code with fellow programmers and getting extensive feedback/review of best practices, design pattern usage, application UI, security, etc.

Currently in public beta.

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer Exactly. This could have been totally predicted:

The real problem has been that most people only come on to ask one question and then go and don't come back - they don't upvote answers, they don't choose the best answer etc which then breaks the community. This site has always been lots of one off questions and then a handful of regular answering most the questions which is not healthy — bhttoan Nov 14 at 12:48

user20683

I expect we might get some of the questions merged. It's hard to say.

user55340

Code review gets hit on the answer ratio (which isn't really that fair for them, and on the users with 2k+ rep)

user20683

8:26 PM

Workplace, maybe Project Management...

enderland

you know what would be awesome? if htere was an online database of all US holidays for the next 10 years which was a nice datatable format

user55340

CR has only 37 users with 2k rep and 21 users with 3k rep.

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer Keep your torch handy... much of their content we likely won't want

user55340

1

Wine reviews

Proposed Q&A site for people to share evaluations of different wines, thereby helping people to choose wines.

Closed before being launched.

Joe

@JimmyHoffa and to think startup communities can thrive online. This should be a user-case why entrepreneurs are a bad social market.

user55340

8:27 PM

31

Design Review

Proposed Q&A site for all those looking to get recommendations on improving their design work. This site is to Graphic Design, User Experience and other sites as Code Review is to Stack Overflow, including critiques on 2D, 3D, layouts, presentations and user interfaces.

Currently in definition.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT Yeah but I recall speaking with someone about this not long ago, the biggest star next to it is that all of those numbers have been in a constant climb over a long period, it's just shown an extreme stability

Joe

@MichaelT This could fit in a broader food exchange.

user20683

@JimmyHoffa Torch:: fire -> [fire] -> plasma -> [plasma] -> gamma_ray_burst

Jimmy Hoffa

I've a soft spot for CR.

It's a good site and fun

Just kind of a totally different type of site than the others around

Joe

Is Joel a shareholder of SE? If yes, are they making any money? If yes, why does he now run FogCreek?

user20683

8:30 PM

@Joe they are private companies

user41796

@Joe likely. probably. FogCreek predates SE by a long shot.

user20683

he's founder of Fog Creek and co-founder of SE

user20683

Fog Creek is 2000 or so, Stack Overflow is 2008

user55340

You can be the founder or on the board of multiple companies without difficulty.

user20683

US corporate law is...pretty lax compared to many parts of the world.

Joe

8:32 PM

"On 3 May 2010 it was announced that Stack Overflow had raised $6 million in venture capital from a group of investors led by Union Square Ventures"

Must be generating around $10M a year

@WorldEngineer That's a good thing. But you guys aren't number one in the "Doing Business" ranks

user20683

@Joe Never said we were. I said "many".

user20683

@JimmyHoffa @jozefg If Hell is purely functional, does that mean it's frozen over?

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer No, it just means once you're there, that can't be changed.

user20683

@JimmyHoffa Ah, Calvinist then.

Joe

@WorldEngineer You guys aren't allowed to own foreign accounts though. Isn't that going against some level of freedom?

user20683

8:37 PM

@Joe What do you mean by foreign accounts?

user41796

@Joe where are you from? (your profile doesn't indicate)

Joe

@WorldEngineer A foreign bank account.

I assume you could bypass it by owning a foreign company though

@GlenH7 Your profile says you're 93 years old ;) :D

user41796

@Joe There is nothing in US law that prohibits US citizens from having foreign bank accounts. The citizen is expected to report all income to the federal / US IRS regardless of what country the income was generated in and regardless of where the income may be deposited at a bank.

user41796

@Joe That was the oldest they would let me. And you still haven't provided what country you're in.

Ampt

@Joe I'd be interested how you got to that number from 6 million in venture capital

user41796

8:41 PM

I'm asking because your comments aren't making sense to me. Also keep in mind that @WorldEngineer is US based.

Joe

@GlenH7 I wonder why then that the Swiss are closing off all US accounts. I better recheck that law. I think the thing I may be confusing it with is that you guys have to pay taxes to your country even if you aren't living in the US.

user20683

@Joe They are closing them because of FACTA

user20683

thinkadvisor.com/2013/07/17/…

user20683

It's not illegal, it's more that it's poor business.

Joe

@Ampt over-valuation, as the VCs like to do.

@Ampt and with 1.5 million users, they must be generating at least a significant amount of income by now.

user41796

8:44 PM

@Joe yes, US citizens are expected to pay income taxes regardless of country of origin for the income. There are exemptions for expats that reduce the basis of what they pay taxes on, and they can get credit for income taxes paid to other governments.

Joe

I suppose once you cross a threshold of money, avoiding tax becomes a necessity.

Ampt

@Joe no I mean, how did YOU come up with their revenue stream?

user41796

Apparently I stepped through the wrong portal a few moments ago. @Joe your comments are becoming a bit nonsensical / unfounded.

Ampt

@GlenH7 Clearly you don't have your tin foil hat on silly

Joe

@Ampt See my next point. 1.5 million users

Ampt

8:47 PM

@Joe so 1.5m users = 10m a year... how?

Joe

@GlenH7 How is my argument in anyway nonsensical?

user41796

2 mins ago, by Joe

I suppose once you cross a threshold of money, avoiding tax becomes a necessity.

Joe

@Ampt You could value each user at around $5 dollars?

user55340

We don't really see where/how you connect the dots from various facts to estimates of value.

user41796

Doesn't make sense. The vast majority of people, regardless of their income level, pay their legally obligated share of taxes. Some choose not to, that's true. But that occurs at all economic strata and isn't limited to a particular income amount.

Ampt

8:49 PM

@Joe and where did that value come from? honestly it sounds like you pulled a number out of your ass

Joe

@GlenH7 So you're going to naively disagree with that even though there's probably at least US$1 trillion stashed in foreign accounts?

user55340

(much less the identification of the revenue stream)

Joe

@Ampt I was hoping you'd eventually assume that point.

Ampt

6MM in investment? Must make 10MM a year.

user41796

@Ampt - how many finals do you have left? And / or is your semester winding down?

Ampt

8:51 PM

@Joe so you're saying we should probably just disregard anything you say?

@GlenH7 I'm done done done done done

and it feels so GOOD

Joe

Say they invested 6M for 20% equity. This values SE at 30M, if they're doing 10M a year, profit of say 20%, that gives 2M. 30/2 = 15 years, which equals the rough multiple of Google's P/E

user41796

Congrats! No wonder you're hammering these companies to put offers on the table.

Ampt

@Joe where did you get 20% equity?

you keep making up numbers

Jimmy Hoffa

@Joe they're asking for citations, not explanations

Joe

@Ampt These are called 'assumptions' , they are used in economics, and many other sciences in the world.

Jimmy Hoffa

8:52 PM

Ampt

thats like me saying well this rock on my desk weighs 2 tons and I think that there are 3000 of these rocks in the moon so the moon HAS to weigh 6000 tons

@Joe it's not an assumption if you entirely make up numbers. then its just patently false

an assumption means that you have at least some insight

user55340

I only trust assumptions from actual "engineers" when talking about things they know. Economic assumptions tend to be less accurate then dart boards unless backed up by actual facts.

Ampt

which, at this point, I'm questioning

user41796

@MichaelT So that's why you muted my chat messages....

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT actual facts, known in modern parlance as factuals, the Oxford English dictionary of 2050 retains synonyms to Factual as Farktual, Fractional, and Fax Machine.

user55340

8:54 PM

@GlenH7 Not enough pictures of shipping containers... yep.

Joe

@MichaelT Economics is a soft science. You need assumptions to estimate models.

user55340

(btw, read a bit in the news about < 200 square foot homes...

Ampt

@Joe with the way you're spinning it I could make a harder science out of a feather pillow

user41796

@MichaelT wow. Not sure I could do that with a family.

user41796

@Ampt - let it go. not worth the effort.

Ampt

8:55 PM

I couldn't do that living alone...

user55340

@Joe To people not familiar with the softness of it to understand the models, it feels quite a bit like wild guesses that are even less accurate than our estimates for when the project will be done.

Ampt

@GlenH7 ok ok. Let me find that damn mute button.

user55340

@GlenH7 All single habitation.

user41796

@Ampt left click the user icon ....

Joe

@Ampt You could reverse my theory and start with the P/E ratio of 15, that is how you will end up with 20% for 6M

user55340

8:56 PM

@GlenH7 details.com/style-advice/tech-and-design/201112/…

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt Are your pillows actual feather? Man I used to love a down pillow, though my wife bought me an italian memory foam pillow a few years ago for xmas, and then about 4 months later usurped it as it was so unbelievably comfortable. Now we both have them and have bought a couple for others as gifts; a quality memory foam pillow is unbelievable...

user41796

@MichaelT that makes more sense. Sounds almost like a 3rd world "house" type thing which just shows I'm stuck in the first world.

user55340

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa nah, they always poked me in the face which was annoying when I was trying to sleep

err...

user55340

The house (as you can see) is cylindrical - 6'6" x 10'

Joe

8:57 PM

@MichaelT these are the guys who decide what your mortgage on your house will be. So although people discredit their work, they are considering a complexity of elements that a chemistry lab doesn't deal with.

user55340

And depending on the orientation, you have different functionality (you can see the bed there if you rotate clockwise a bit.

user41796

@MichaelT That is wickedly cool. Not sure I could live in it But I like it.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT This looks like a whole world of usability risks...

Ampt

aaaaaand we're rolling

Jimmy Hoffa

Awesome, but it sure better have a high quality stand

user55340

8:58 PM

@JimmyHoffa Um...

user55340

Joe

@Ampt so even from my winged assumption, do you now see how the pieces of the puzzle fit together? I do assume that the P/E multiple would be much higher for a startup though. So maybe Union Square got in for 10%, but this was 3 years ago, so SE might have been making a lot less money back then

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT This looks like a college campus... That couldn't possibly bite you in the ass when some half-drunk kids happen across it during the walk of shame

user41796

@JimmyHoffa half-drunk?

user55340

129 square feet for this one at Ohio State...

user55340

8:59 PM

Joe

The only truth about valuations for startups is that they're wildly inflated.

user55340

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 I didn't go to college, I presume by the time walk-of-shame rolls around they've sobered up a little..

@MichaelT Alternative housing really is cool

user55340

I keep looking at these things as "hmm... extra lot" and wondering what I could do with it.

user20683

@JimmyHoffa University of Karlsruhe in Baden-Wurttemburg, southern Germany.

user55340

9:01 PM

Mini guest home? Out of the house office?

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 as an engineer you should appreciate this; I've dreamed about owning one of these for years aidomes.com (not just because it's a dome, but specifically this company's construction materials and techniques)

user41796

@JimmyHoffa One thing I have noticed with these showcase type houses is that they use a lot of wood for the interior. Which kind of blows out the construction costs.

user20683

@GlenH7 bear in mind that many of these houses are in Europe where land costs are far far higher than wood costs could be.

user55340

9:02 PM

215 square feet.

Joe

@WorldEngineer "Recent Graduate of Georgia State University in Computer Science and Religious Studies. Currently job-hunting whilst working in a bookstore." Did you get a graduate degree like a Masters?

user20683

@Joe two Bachelors

user41796

@MichaelT how wasteful. A full 215?! Sheesh, gotta stay below 200 sf.

Joe

@WorldEngineer Do recruiters approach you based on your SE profile/s?

user20683

@Joe On my Careers.StackOverflow one, yes.

user20683

9:04 PM

actually gonna write up a reply shortly

user55340

(not a home - office 'pod')

user55340

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa Walk back, hungover in the sunlight? I usually grab a drink for the walk...

user55340

Joe

9:06 PM

@GlenH7 Did that noob mute me? I didn't even know a mute function existed.

user41796

@MichaelT - I'm glad those last two haven't caught on.

user55340

@GlenH7 That steamer trunk isn't too out of the question... I could see consultants doing that when going on site.

Joe

oh "Ignore user everywhere"

user41796

57 secs ago, by GlenH7

@MichaelT - I'm glad those last two haven't caught on.

user55340

I've seen some things that consultants have been given when on site "here's a table at the edge of the wall and a broken chair"

user41796

9:09 PM

@MichaelT We once had to cram 2 or 3 into a cube designed for 1.

Joe

@MichaelT Doesn't look too comfortable

user55340

@Joe That last one... no thats more a "wtf" image. Neat concept...

user55340

This is another trunk version, but one that looks rather uncomfortable...

user55340

Ampt

9:11 PM

apparently Valve does something like this. all of their desks have wheels

user41796

@MichaelT I think even Herman Miller might protest

Ampt

and you just roll your whole station to the project you're working on

user41796

@Ampt what sort of workstations (computers) are they using? Expensive enough to justify that level of effort?

Ampt

desktops, multiple monitors on a decently sized little desk

i mean it is valve

its a part of their culture

user41796

@Ampt yeah, who are they again? They've made a couple of decent games, right?

Ampt

9:13 PM

@GlenH7 lol good try. I ain't falling for that one

user55340

Not portable... very much 'wtf' in the 'I want that' way...

user55340

mwelab.com/index.php/en/products/emperor-200

user55340

Ampt

that looks pretty slick if unconventional

user55340

> MSRP: $49,150 US

enderland

9:14 PM

I should see if we can get one of those

user41796

@MichaelT but they only offer up to 3x27" screens. Bah

Joe

@MichaelT Do the screens lower?

user55340

Yep

user41796

@MichaelT As I'm now thinking - bet I could build it cheaper than that...

enderland

9:15 PM

our ergo guy told me, "I've got one on order!"

user41796

@enderland for him, not you

Ampt

tell him I just want a new chair

thats all

the 50's are asking for this one back

user55340

"the cheap" version at $6k...

user55340

user41796

> - Bose 5.1 surround sound

Ampt

9:16 PM

wut

user41796

That's the best they could put in? Sigh.

Joe

@GlenH7 There's features in it that justify the price-tag, or so it seems.

enderland

bose has such ridiculous "we're awesome even though they suck" levels

user41796

@enderland The 901s are great if paired with a decent subwoofer.

enderland

bose also has high WAF - wife acceptance factor

user41796

9:19 PM

The 701s and 501s are pretty decent, again if paired with a decent subwoofer.

user41796

I have been consistently unimpressed by their component systems though.

user41796

Cerwin Vega had a slander campaign of "All highs and no lows? Must be Bose."

Ampt

I appreciate my headphones a lot

keeps my coworkers/roommates happy anyway

user41796

Of course, CV fidelity over ~200 Hz can be questionable. :-)

Ampt

get some headphones and an amp. Long live the headphones

psr

9:22 PM

@Ampt 63 is average starting salary. You are not starting - you have the equivalent of X years experience already at your current job, which means (according to the data you are going to look up) a fair salary seems to be about (number higher than 63k). If they call BS, fallback to 63k. At least you don't start by making 63 the highest you could possibly get.

user41796

@psr that's a really good point

Ampt

@psr nah, it's average across the board (internships or not) but I probably will ask for more. At least that's what the GF wants, but shes a mooch

user41796

@Ampt get a prenup then

Ampt

She's an engineer making more than me atm hahaha

user20683

always ask for more

user20683

9:24 PM

maybe not more money

Ampt

@WorldEngineer im the one giving them the numbers. I know i shouldn't but I am

user41796

@WorldEngineer I have made it a standard practice to ask the person giving me the offer "is there anything additional I should be asking for?"

Ampt

@GlenH7 and I'm mooching off of her at the moment so she's trying to get even haha

user41796

It's a good way to politely ask if they have some negotiating room or not.

enderland

@Ampt also keep in mind base salary is not everything at all

user41796

9:26 PM

@enderland the point about being a semi-experienced hire is a good one though.

Ampt

aye, it definitely is

user55340

@Ampt just ask for a chair...

Ampt

i've been working at the company already for 11 months

@MichaelT "we can't give you 65, but we can do 50 and a chair"

DONE

shit.. wait

enderland

@Ampt ooooho yeah I forgot about this, taht's pretty good power I'dthink ;)

user41796

@Ampt which chair?

psr

9:28 PM

@Ampt This is not the time for rational argument, this is the time for political argument. Start with the premise that you deserve more, then work backwards. You are above average because the 63 lumps you in with those without internships. If it were broken out your number would be higher.

user55340

Point out that (at current company) they will drastically cut the on boarding time.

enderland

@Ampt have they made an offer yet though? I think I missed something here :)

Ampt

@enderland they are going to. It's in the "paperwork with HR" stage

really it was low priority til i started getting other offers

enderland

Ah. so maybe they'll make it 70k :P

Ampt

i mention that to my boss and its "We should sit down and talk about getting your paperwork done"

so its not for a lack of effort, I just sprung this on them yesterday

@enderland god I wish

one of my buddies has an offer for 57 with incentives that could go as high as an aditional 12k

user41796

9:30 PM

@Ampt That's a good sign. If they moved as soon as they knew they had competition, then they're interested in keeping you.

user41796

@Ampt lies, lies, lies. :-) Never believe the "as high as" numbers.

enderland

don't say never. I had a company people were telling me I should expect offers in the 55k range and they offered me... well let's just say I wasn't going to tell anyone there what they offered me (nor that I turned them down, for that matter)

Ampt

@GlenH7 oh yeah these guys are great. I just let him know that I had offers from other companies and he instantly started pushing it up the food chain

gnat

@MichaelT low on q/day is rather conscious, even intentional if you wish. Lessons learned from NPR...

your note about never graduate doesn't make good sense to me. Based on my observations, it looks most likely that Workplace will graduate the day (maybe week) after we build 3K question backlog - at 4.7 rate, this is going to take 4-5 months from now. Worth mentioning that having 3K backlog artificially bumped up by soap opera garbage looks a recipe for disaster: questions asked after graduation will carry a risk of following bad examples from backlog — gnat Nov 7 at 9:00

"As I write, Beta.Workplace.SE is currently trending at a mere 4.7 questions per day. This is unacceptable. At this rate, the site will never graduate." It's neither unacceptable, nor a sign that the site will never graduate. Don't get stuck on the A51's stats, they don't tell the whole story and are not binding. Skeptics, for example, graduated with ~2 questions/day (and is currently at 2.2 questions/day). There are quite a few other factors SE will consider when they discuss graduation and most of these factors are only available to them. That said, we can always use more (good) questions. — Yannis Nov 7 at 9:42

Ampt

the only reason i want an offer from the others is so that I can look him in the eys and tell him I have offers for X amount so i want at least that without feeling bad

user41796

9:33 PM

@Ampt make it easier and give them a range. Other companies have different constraints. His levers to pull in putting a package together may not align with "just money."

user41796

More importantly, get into a mindset where anything within that range is okay depending upon the other benefits. You'll be a much better frame of mind when it comes to negotiations.

enderland

yup. Over 20% of my compensation this year is not salary (not including healthcare)

Ampt

@GlenH7 yeah i mean there are stocks since we are employee owned, plus theres the 401k and healthcare

so i may have to give a little

user41796

@Ampt Also keep in mind the freedoms you have already earned within the organization. Your A company of the moment won't be able to give you the same thing.

Ampt

true that

enderland

9:39 PM

Knowing you like the people and work environment is worth a lot, too

user55340

Does current company include intern time counted for vacation accrual purposes?

Ampt

oh man thats a good question too

let me write some of this down

enderland

ditto for any vesting periods on stock/401k

user41796

@Ampt it's also in the chat transcript....

Ampt

"hold on, let me get out an online chat real quick"

user55340

9:40 PM

@GlenH7 hard to check that while talking to boss...

Ampt

"they said you're full of shit and I should ask for more. Wait. I don't think I was supposed to repeat that"

user41796

@MichaelT kids today are always connected. If @Ampt actually answered questions on main, I would be surprised if he wasn't answering questions during his interviews.

enderland

@MichaelT I started FT with about 2.5years credit for vesting/vacation (and pension, too, in the off chance that's around for it to matter for me)

user41796

@Ampt surrogate helicopter parents?!?!

2

Ampt

haha I'm always afraid of the flack I'll get from you guys when I mess up

user55340

9:42 PM

@GlenH7 "Google glass, programmer's chat feed..."

enderland

just make sure to setup a hangout first and drop the link in here. oh and mute it on your end ;)

user55340

btw, if you want to have fun with someone who has google glass, run up behind them and say "Google glass, image search Trypophobia"

Ampt

one of my senior design members had his work's pair for a couple weeks

wasn't thrilled

apparently the limitation on making apps is pretty high

enderland

@Ampt btw, how big is this company?

Ampt

which one?

the one I'm working at?

enderland

9:44 PM

the one you want to work for. yea

Ampt

<1000 people

. > 500

in that range

user41796

I'd call that medium to large'ish

Ampt

yeah. we're in a few different places

user55340

I'd say medium... I think its just above various caps for "small business"

Ampt

my office is probably 250

yeah its not "small" small

but i mean my team is <10

and we're the only software engineering team

my team is 6 if you count my non programming boss

user55340

9:47 PM

Hmm.. found one definition:

enderland

is it a public company?

stock options are mostly worth $0 but I suspect you could get a lot of them if they can't offer you salary with some straightforward negotiating

user55340

US: 1-6 --> Micro
< 250 --> Small
< 500 --> Medium
< 1000 --> Large
> 1k --> Enterprise

Ampt

i may have over estimated that

user41796

@MichaelT There's a wide range in that "small" category.

user55340

@Ampt Toss your company name into Wolfram Alpha.

Ampt

9:49 PM

we are 255

welp

im pretty bad at estimating

lol

user55340

That's just one definition used by some laws for some departments in the US.

enderland

@MichaelT holy wow that's awesome

user55340

@Ampt amazon.com/Software-Estimation-Demystifying-Practices-Microsoft/…

user55340

(why does amazon one box so big?)

user41796

@MichaelT because they want you to BUY BUY BUY BUY

user55340

9:50 PM

@enderland It really is quite neat...

user55340

@GlenH7 That's not amazon doing the one boxing... I want it small with a "more" link.

Ampt

lmao my company doesn't even come up in wolfram...

enderland

also @Ampt keep in mind simply by telling your boss, "I'll have to think about this" is a good idea, even if the offer is what you want ;)

Robert Harvey

Anyone in here from the UK?

user55340

@Ampt Mine doesn't either... former employer did.

Robert Harvey

9:52 PM

I've got a trivial linguistic question.

user55340

@RobertHarvey whats the question?

user41796

@RobertHarvey fire away, we'll see what we can do

Ampt

@enderland i'm putting my number out there first...

Robert Harvey

Is "crap" profane in the UK?

Ampt

Bloody hell, Queue the fuck up

user55340

9:52 PM

Area 51 - UK QELU? (United Kingdoms - Queen's English Language and Usage)

user41796

no

enderland

@Ampt why?

Ampt

cuz I'm dumb and offered to do so

enderland

oh

well :P

Ampt

and am now regretting that decision

and because it will help speed things up

user41796

9:53 PM

@RobertHarvey it's only mildly profane in the US. Not at all in the UK, AFAIK. Pretty sure I've seen it crop up in a number of Register articles

enderland

that's true, I suppose

Ampt

microsoft's revenue / employee is > 800k.....

wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Microsoft

Robert Harvey

Google lists it as vulgar slang. But I know someone who is a site operator who's instituted one of those profanity filters that turns bad words into ####, and crap is apparently in the list.

user55340

@RobertHarvey Doesn't appear to be so... answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110111161449AAOAzrN

user41796

@RobertHarvey search.theregister.co.uk/… and check the title on this one: theregister.co.uk/2013/11/21/apple_class_action_suit

user55340

9:54 PM

vulgar != profane.

Robert Harvey

OK, so which one is it for a word filter? Vulgar or profane?

user41796

I'd say neither for the UK. Mildly vulgar (I guess) for US

user55340

(profanity implies a religious context)

Robert Harvey

Oh. I think most people don't see that distinction.

user55340

Realize that 'crap' is from 'crapper' which is a proper noun "Crapper" - the guy who invented the toilet.

user55340

9:56 PM

Thomas Crapper

Thomas Crapper (baptised 28 September 1836; died 27 January 1910) was a plumber who founded Thomas Crapper & Co in London. Contrary to widespread misconceptions, Crapper did not invent the flush toilet. He did, however, do much to increase the popularity of the toilet, and developed some important related inventions, such as the ballcock. He was noted for the quality of his products and received several royal warrants. Manhole covers with Crapper's company's name on them in Westminster Abbey are now one of London's minor tourist attractions. Thomas Crapper & Co owned the world's first ba...

user55340

Ok, not inventor...

user55340

(Hmm... other debunkings in there too)

Robert Harvey

Ballcock. [cue beavis and butthead laugh]

user20683

@MichaelT Last I checked crap was medieval era or older.

user55340

9:58 PM

Vulgar, dealing with bodily functions and material, but not 'profanity'.

Ampt

the Krappe... sounds like something you would get at starbucks

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