English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Færd

1:27 AM

@MattE.Эллен Thanques.

user227867

2:19 AM

@Færd Is that the Martian spelling of thanks?

tchrist

3:42 AM

What's the opposite of posterity?

Tonepoet

@tchrist Presterity? =P

tchrist

anteriority?

Tonepoet

@tchrist Apparently that's actually a word in the American Heritage Dictionary but whether it actually means the opposite of posterity as you'd expect is another matter.

tchrist

I was just getting because posterior and anterior are opposites.

These are Latin adjectives in the comparative degree. Think "ante" versus "post".

posterior means backer and anterior means fronter. Something like that. But in English merely aft and fore.

posterity are those who are post us.

I figured there must be one for those who are ante us.

(those are prepositions)

Tonepoet

4:02 AM

Hmm, well antecedent can refer to ancestors, both of which seem closely related in concept. I would suppose ancestry is the closest thing to the word you want.

This is referencing the secondary all of a person's descendants meaning of posterity though.

user227867

6:27 AM

I went to the park and walked for an hour.

user227867

I see there is a meta post about oxforddictionaries.com, which I refuse to participate in.

user227867

Oxford just keeps giving weird names and keeps changing names to their books and sites, so any attempt to systematise is futile.

user227867

Let those who care do what they want.

user227867

And how many people know that oxforddictionaries.com is really the online version of the Oxford Dictionary of English?

user227867

And how many people actually know what Oxford Dictionary of English is even?

user227867

6:34 AM

I will write a mathematical inequality to express all major Oxford dictionaries in one line. Here goes...

user227867

Oxford English Dictionary = oed.com > Shorter Oxford English Dictionary > Oxford Dictionary of English = New Oxford American Dictionary = oxforddictionaries.com > Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary = Oxford Advanced American Dictionary = oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com

user227867

@Tonepoet I dedicate the above rough inequality to you. =P

Tonepoet

7:52 AM

@WillHunting The Shorter O.E.D. interests me vaguely

user227867

10:03 AM

@Tonepoet Same, but I have awoken from the enchantment with Oxford.

user227867

張學友 | 愛是永恆 [國] (高清音）

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user227867

This is the most beautiful Mandarin pop song I have ever heard in my life. Try it.

user227867

I heard it like a decade ago, and I had a hard time finding the Mandarin version because most were in Cantonese.

tchrist

12:46 PM

@WillHunting Mandolins always sound tinny to me.

tchrist

3:38 PM

It's gotta be a toughy when a guy's very name is a tongue twister if you're an English-speaker: newscaster Jorge Gilberto Ramos Ávalos. The right answer is not to even try that in English because your mouth just isn't “set” right, so you'd have to stop to contort it into the needed “tight articulation” and then stop again to switch back to the “loose” English one. Colbert managed ok.

I was taught that by a college roommate of mine whose own name was Jorge, and who was a native, idiomatic speaker in both languages since birth “with no accent”.

tchrist

3:55 PM

Which one do you say for dais: /ˈdeɪ.ɪs/, /ˈdeɪ.əs/, /ˈdaɪ.ɪs/, /ˈdaɪ.əs/, or something else?

Cerberus

Pronouncing it perfectly is unattainable within a short period of time, but learning to pronounce the phonemes is part of learning to speak a language.

If you perceive that you have to twist your tongue, then at least your ear must know what sound you are trying to utter, which is a good sign: you need that in order to be able to do it.

Repeated pronunciation exercises with a native speaker will help.

tchrist

4:11 PM

It isn't really the tongue.

One’s lips and jaw are set differently. Italian and Spanish need a “tight” articulation in which the buccal cavity is held frozen in a static position, compared with the Germanic languages. I believe that French is considered somewhere between those two points.

If your mouth is set for English, you cannot say Spanish or Italian (etc.) words with “the right accent”; the reverse is also true.

This tries to explain the point: blog.tahoeenglish.com/2010/01/23/its-all-in-your-mouth

> In English, the jaw is fairly relaxed, and the mouth is held in a medium open position. The tongue is held in the middle of the mouth, and the corners of the mouth are relaxed. The tongue hits the gums above the front teeth more often than the teeth themselves.

In French, the tongue is kept slightly raised to make a narrow tunnel in the vocal cavity. The muscles at the corner of the mouth are tensed and the lips protrude a bit when speaking. The tongue is always in the vicinity of the front teeth, in a more forward position than it is in English. The point of resonance is high.

> At first, when you get your mouth in the correct position, your jaw, lip and tongue muscles will no doubt feel tight and tired. Keep practicing, though, until it becomes natural and instinctive when speaking English. This is really important. You cannot make the sounds that are exclusive to any language without having your mouth in the right position.

> An example of this is English speakers trying to roll their r’s. Unless we tense our tongues, lips and corners of the mouth, we cannot speak forward in our mouths enough to make the rolling sound. It just won’t work. Just try to roll an r sound with the point of articulation being in the center of the mouth. That’s why you laugh at us!

This is critically important, the part of about “getting the accent right”, something you’ve criticized your countryman Carice van Houten for. And it is in my experience never taught in the U.S. education system outside of linguistics courses at university or perhaps “for-language-majors” regimens. I promise it doesn't happen before college, or at least did not in my experience. This is what makes listening to natives Anglophones speaking other languages so painful.

> German, Dutch, French, Spanish, Italian, Russian and Polish are among the many frontal, or dental languages.

Hm, is that true?

@Cerberus I think I knew that about the Flemish accent, but I'm not sure I was aware it was a general characteristic of “all”(?) Dutch speakers.

> Practice imitating the various accents of foreign speakers speaking your native language. That is where it is easiest to see how each language requires a different mouth position to speak the language properly.

That's astute.

Færd

6:45 PM

> As she walked out, she was smiling.

Dear native speaker, do you find anything jarring in this sentence?

tchrist

6:59 PM

Nope.

> She was smiling as she walked out.

Might be better ordered, but who’s to judge?

There is nothing new under the sun:

0

Q: Dealing with the upvoting of execrable questions

The recent question Need help with love has received an upvote. I am tired of trying to preserve the credibility of the site by reverse-voting such perverse voting (which happens far too frequently). Is there some way to deal with anonymous members voting in a way so detrimental to the site?

discussion

Færd

@tchrist I understand now. I falsely made an analogy between that one and this:

> As I fell down, she was taking a picture of me.

(which does bother me)

But the two are different.

tchrist

I don't think I would say that.

Maybe. Not sure.

Færd

> She took a picture of me as I was falling.

The background action often works better in progressive.

tchrist

She filmed me while I plummeted to my demise.

Hm.

She took pictures as I lay dying.

She took pictures while I was screaming in pain.

Færd

7:14 PM

It depends on the verb, whether it's stative, stretchable (in time), etc.

tchrist

Probably so.

Færd

Well, thanks.

M.A.R.

7:44 PM

WTH people

0

Q: Can I use " ask from" in the sentence?

I need a huge favor. I ask from my closed friend.

grammar

You're tossing this at us?

:(

Tonepoet

@M.A.R. Who is "us"? That is English Language Learners. and it is meant for questions that would be unsuitable here at English Language & Usage.

M.A.R.

@Tonepoet It's migrated from ELU.

@Tonepoet 'What toothbrush can I use?' isn't appropriate on ELU, but that doesn't mean it should be migrated to ELL either.

tchrist

Sorry, there were three other migrate votes on it. Should have been closed.

If you reject it, it'll stay that way.

I promise. :)

M.A.R.

Don't mind me, TCh. I'm just letting off some steam.

tchrist

My steam is damp.

Tonepoet

7:57 PM

@M.A.R. The titular question is about English at least, unlike the toothbrush example. I don't know enough regarding what's an acceptable question on E.L.L. to comment otherwise though.

tchrist

8:19 PM

Man, how I love Indians!

M.A.R.

@tchrist Me too. I expect the next chat message will be interesting

tchrist

@M.A.R. It's 81 degrees here: truly I ask you, what could be more fabulous than Indian Summer?

M.A.R.

@tchrist Hehe I don't call that Indian

tchrist

Oh?

That's what you call it, you know.

M.A.R.

Unless you're frying.

tchrist

8:21 PM

Indian summer

Indian summer is a period of unseasonably warm, dry weather that sometimes occurs in autumn in the Northern Hemisphere. The US National Weather Service defines this as weather conditions that are sunny and clear with above normal temperatures, occurring late-September to mid-November. It is usually described as occurring after a killing frost. == Etymology and usage == Late-19th century Boston lexicographer Albert Matthews made an exhaustive search of early American literature in an attempt to discover who coined the expression. The earliest reference he found dated from 1778, but from the context...

M.A.R.

Oh, so it has a special meaning to it.

tchrist

It does!

M.A.R.

Well, it's unseasonably cold here, or that's my impression

tchrist

We know not its true origin but it antedates the Republic.

M.A.R.

The temperatures are lying.

I can hardly believe it's above zero here.

tchrist

8:23 PM

81 81 81 81 81

Four score and one degrees have we!

M.A.R.

Well, you're frying, and I'm freezing. Let us change places

tchrist

I fry not.

M.A.R.

I'm not literally freezing either

But we're figuratively doing it

Sneezes

tchrist

The relative humidity is but one ninth, the absolute humidity inconsequential; the winds are steady at six to twelve, with the occasional gusts to two and thirty; the temperature stands at four score and one: it is summer's last unlooked-for kiss, a treat and a treasure, an Indian blessing.

> Indian Summer

Along the line of smoky hills
The crimson forest stands,
And all the day the blue-jay calls
Throughout the autumn lands.

Now by the brook the maple leans
With all his glory spread,
And all the sumachs on the hills
Have turned their green to red.

Now by great marshes wrapt in mist,
Or past some river's mouth,
Throughout the long, still autumn day
Wild birds are flying south

Better:

> These are the days when birds come back,
A very few, a bird or two,
To take a backward look.

These are the days when skies put on
The old, old sophistries of June, —
A blue and gold mistake.

Oh, fraud that cannot cheat the bee,
Almost thy plausibility
Induces my belief,

Till ranks of seeds their witness bear,
And softly through the altered air
Hurries a timid leaf!

Oh, sacrament of summer days,
Oh, last communion in the haze,
Permit a child to join,

Thy sacred emblems to partake,
Thy consecrated bread to break,

> Oh, sacrament of summer days, Oh, last communion in the haze, Permit a child to join, Thy sacred emblems to partake, Thy consecrated bread to break, Taste thine immortal wine!

Rush-Rivendell (Lyrics)

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SmokeDetector

8:51 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in body, repeating characters in title: loooooooooooooooooooooooool by user202302 on english.stackexchange.com

tchrist

9:02 PM

0

A: Music school vs. musical school

The problem is that music school is not an adjective followed by a noun. It is two nouns, a compound noun. music school agriculture school carpentry school engineering school nursing school drama school masonry school These are all schools where one goes to learn about, or to become, the noun...

Tonepoet

11:48 PM

@tchrist I saw that question and the first thing I thought to do was look up Julliard.

Your answer puts a whole new spin on the Institute of Musical Art. XP

Cerberus

@tchrist Nah, you should just practice a bit and you can do much better than Carice. That is, she, too, can do better when she makes an effort: she's just lazy.

@tchrist I really have no idea what it means in practice.

@tchrist Agreed.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…