English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

2:15 AM

Ugh, maybe I shouldn't be flagging when I'm on the brink of illness. Have I terribly misinterpreted this question? I think I have at least a little, but I'm not sure if it's on topic.

Færd

2:40 AM

@Mitch Thinking about these compulsory(?) whole-book literature assignments make me feel uncomfortable. I'm glad we don't practice it here.

Færd

3:01 AM

In Iran, lemon (لیمو: /li:mu:/) by default (or usually) means sweet lemon and if you mean to say sour lemon you normally have to specify. I think the reverse is true for English speaking countries, or even the West, right?

How often do you have (any kind of) sweet lemon? And what do you call it?

Citrus limetta

Citrus limetta, alternatively considered to be a cultivar of Citrus limon, C. limon 'Limetta', is a species of citrus, commonly known as mousambi, musambi, sweet lime, sweet lemon, and sweet limetta It is native to South Asia and Southeast Asia and also cultivated in the Mediterranean Basin. In Iran it is called Limu Shirin (لیمو شیرین, meaning “Sweet lemon” in Persian). In North India, it is commonly called mousambi, mosambi, or musambi (मुसंबी)(موسمبى) (in Hindi/Urdu and Marathi). In East India, it is known as Musumbi, Musombi or Musambi. In South India, it is called Musambi in Kannada a...

Mitch

3:41 AM

@Færd there's a thing that is a lemon that is sweet? I have a hard time imagining that. I'd call it a really strange lemon, or a citrus fruit that looks like a lemon but is strangely sweet, like an orange that is colored yellow.

@Færd in high school here, that's all literature is, is full novels (or maybe poetry). Uncomfortable is right.

SmokeDetector

3:53 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Mostly non-Latin answer: "Material world", "Physical world", "Corporeal world" - what's the difference? by Lakatos Pan on english.SE

Mari-Lou A

7:36 AM

@tchrist Just a brief "thank you" to all the mods (and devs?) who investigated into the spat of downvotes my account had.

It ended well, for me, thank you.

englishstudent

9:39 AM

@Mitch Yes that, exactly.

@Tonepoet Feel better soon.

Færd

11:53 AM

@Mitch Why should that be so surprising? There are sour and sweet kinds of grapes, oranges, and many other fruits and things. Lemon is no exception.

Færd

12:16 PM

M-W doesn't have /ʃər/ or /ʃɜr/ for sure. I like /ʃʊr/ better, but I hear /ʃər/ a lot.

Færd

12:27 PM

Just compare the first five: forvo.com/word/sure/#en

The ones from the UK sound all alike (except for the last one).

Mitch

2:57 PM

@Færd in my (limited) experience, I have grown up knowing only oranges that are sweet, lemons that are sour, grapefruit that are sour, limes that are somehow in between both sweet and sour (but not very) at the same time. Sour grapes are just sweet grapes picked too early. But produce (fruit and vegetables) in the US is known for being somewhat limited in variety. So I blame the US.

skullpetrol

We even use the the word "lemon" to describe a "sour deal" on a car.

M.A.R.

Citrus limetta

Citrus limetta, alternatively considered to be a cultivar of Citrus limon, C. limon 'Limetta', is a species of citrus, commonly known as mousambi, musambi, sweet lime, sweet lemon, and sweet limetta It is native to South Asia and Southeast Asia and also cultivated in the Mediterranean Basin. In Iran it is called Limu Shirin (لیمو شیرین, meaning “Sweet lemon” in Persian). In North India, it is commonly called mousambi, mosambi, or musambi (मुसंबी)(موسمبى) (in Hindi/Urdu and Marathi). In East India, it is known as Musumbi, Musombi or Musambi. In South India, it is called Musambi in Kannada a...

Also hi

Mitch

hey

M.A.R.

This was the errors' post I was babbling about yesterday

1

Q: In how many ways can something not be right?

There's this large source of confusion among learners and sometimes even native speakers. They tend to think if something doesn't sound right to their ears, it must be ungrammatical, while that's at times not the case. Why don't each of these utterances get it right? foon speeding ...

Mitch

So we'll have to add that taste to our food replicator machine.

M.A.R.

3:01 PM

@Mitch It tastes nice, and kills cold fast, but turns bitter fast

Hey, that rhymes

Oh, doesn't actually

RegDwigнt

@Robusto 迷うなぁ～！セクシーなの？キュートなの？どっちが好きなの？

M.A.R.

3:20 PM

Mitch

3:43 PM

@M.A.R. Eating citron on rice, what a blast, it'll never last

You just need to extend your rhyme scheme to more than one line and then it'd work, just like Bruce Springsteen.

>With a boulder on my shoulder
Feeling kinda older,
I tripped the merry-go-round
With this very unpleasing,
sneezing and wheezing
The calliope crashed to the ground

Oops, that was by Manfred Mann

@M.A.R. It totally does

M.A.R.

@Mitch Well, I prolly mixed Persian and English rules

In Persian, sometimes the end words are the same, but that alone isn't enough for the thingy to rhyme

There has to be similar ending syllable(s) in different words

Same word doesn't count

This is only high-level nitpick though, a lot of poetry are around that aren't poetry according to the rule

Mitch

@M.A.R. Same word at the end is too easy. the rhyme 'rule' should not be 'reflexive'

@M.A.R. is there an English explanation of the Persian poetry rhyme and meter 'rules'?

M.A.R.

Dunno, lemme search

Mitch

@M.A.R. I didn't get what the point is here. Were you disingenuously asking a question that you answered yourself in order to exposit on the main ways you can have language mistakes?

M.A.R.

@Mitch Wut . . . It's just meant to be a question with an answer. Prolly I'll CW it later and make it a canonical post

+100. This should be a Canonical Post on grammaticality. — StoneyB 16 mins ago

@Mitch A lot of people say stuff like "I know it ." in ungrammatical because there shouldn't be a space before the period

Mitch

3:54 PM

It's very useful, but I can't imagine how anybody else could answer, and I also can't figure out what detail should be there beyond "there are broad areas of language learning where mistakes and their analysis are of the same kind: phonology, syntax (with morphology), semantics, pragmatics."

@M.A.R. Is that the main point of the question (and answer(s))?

how to label errors?

M.A.R.

Yes

Mitch

oh.

M.A.R.

Or semantics vs. syntax

Mitch

then you need to be more specific.

if that's what you want.

M.A.R.

People say "I need to eat some water." is ungrammatical. It's not ungrammatical. It's poor word choice.

@Mitch How? What do you mean?

Mitch

3:56 PM

So you really want to say something like "errors in syntax are called 'grammatical errors' (ie syntax is grammar), but errors in pronunciation are mispronunciations or bad accent"

@M.A.R. OK I get it.

M.A.R.

I wanna say "not everything that sounds off is ungrammatical. Here's why"

If there's any way to improve my wording, please advise :)

Mitch

@M.A.R. You need to be explicit that this question and answer are about what to call these different areas and their errors. Otherwise it sounds like you're just listing phonology, syntax, semantics, etc

M.A.R.

I do think the crux of the answer felt buried deep; but I don't see a way to emphasize the most common errors and slips unless the answer becomes even longer

Mitch

the Q should be "What do you call these areas and what are their errors called?"

M.A.R.

And ELL doesn't like long answers much, so

Mitch

4:00 PM

And give a for example ' "This, is, a, sentence:" What is the error called? Is it bad grammar?'

Or just do it for 'grammar':

M.A.R.

That's a good idea.

@Mitch This one would conflict with the way I started the answer

Mitch

"I asked a question on ELL about this sentence "This, is, a, sentence:" and how to correct its grammar. But then people yelled at me saying it is not bad grammar. That sentence is very wrong. How can it not be bad grammar?" then answer " Punctuation errors are not bad grammar. Grammar refers only to syntax"

That's a short Q and short A

M.A.R.

@Mitch That's short, but the downside is it's only HNQ-y, not canonical-y

Mitch

So it is entirely a question of word choice: 'grammar' is not the appropriate word in this situation.

Tonepoet

Except it is...

M.A.R.

4:03 PM

@Tonepoet That was the most dramatic remark I read today

Dum dum dum dum

Mitch

@M.A.R. But the existing ELL question, as useful as it is, doesn't address what you really want which is the common poor usage of the word 'grammar' applied to punctuation mistakes.

M.A.R.

@Mitch Editing

please wait

. . .

Mitch

or instead of editing write an entirely new Q and A

Your main question "Why don't each of these utterances get it right?" should be "What do you call the error in each of these utterances?"

Robusto

@RegDwigнt Stop talking like a girl in a harem anime! (But, for the record, I am cute and sexy.)

Tonepoet

I doubt this is a task we should be undertaking unless we can explain why this definition of the word is considered invalidated by modern scholars. Otherwise you folk are just complaining about people using a word the way it has always been used for no reason whatsoever.

M.A.R.

4:10 PM

@Mitch how does it look now?

@Mitch I have to go now; I'll be back in four to five hours. If there's anything else I should fix, ping

Mitch

@M.A.R. All looks good to me .. except for the 'Why don't...?' question. 'Why' makes it sound like you're going to explain something, when all it is is a word choice problem.

@M.A.R. no hay problema! hasta luego

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:24 PM

hasta Lego

RegDwigнt

@Robusto that's not what I asked, though. And unlike Google Translate, you should know.

Where's that stupid video. It's been like ten years now.

松浦亜弥 - ね〜え？　[PV]

►

There you go.

Nick Alexeev

5:53 PM

Folks, would this question be on-topic on any of the English language stack? It's being close-voted on EE.SE as off-topic.

0

Q: Where does the word 'booting' comes from when referring to electronic devices?

How did the word booting came to be in the field of computer science and electric engineering when referring to various electronic devices ? Does the word applies to more simpler electric devices also ?

power-electronics computers

Færd

I wouldn't object to its presence on EL&U, but let's see what the mods will say.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…