English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

3:24 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected: Is there a word in English for a man who leaves his pregnant wife and child? by AiEngineer on english.stackexchange.com

Færd

5:54 AM

Overseas has different patterns as an adjective or adverb.

Færd

7:49 AM

Stress patterns, I meant.

tchrist

1:48 PM

I agree that the usage probably derives from the custom of referring to a ship as "she", but doesn't "sister" applied to a website sound queer? — Josh 2 hours ago

Well, at least nobody has replied, You tell it to ’em, sister!

It's odd there aren't any brother anythings.

Hoods notwithstanding.

Kit Z. Fox

True. Things sister, they don't brother.

tchrist

Except for Germans.

One can have brothers german.

Andrew Leach

@tchrist That sounds grimm.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:48 PM

I think the secret GOP plan to prove Trump doesn't, or can't read legislation, is off to a good start.

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You have one word too many in that sentence; hint: it’s the longest one.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You shouldn't be reading the news from...that place.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus No it's totally true. What other reason could he have for signing a declaration for a national day of something-something for a day already passed?

BIG-95

hello my friend(s)! stay awhile and listen

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh, I don't doubt it; but it's all bad.

BIG-95

2:57 PM

i have a doubt in the following sentence, could someone help me?

"[...] and the events that came about when the disc was broken."

the word "about", in this case, is synonym of "around"?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

yes, more or less, but can events "come about"?

events don't usually travel, they happen

BIG-95

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 sorry but, are you answering me or Cerberus?

(I don't know what you guys were talking about)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@BIG-95 well, you

I thought it'd be clear from my reference to "come about" and "events"

Cerb and I are making fun of the US president. I know, I know, it's an easy target.

Færd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Why, don't they? Changes, situations, etc can come about; why not events?

Cerberus

I would say events can come about.

Færd

3:03 PM

And I don't think about means around there. Come about is a fixed phrasal verb, I guess.

Cerberus

But I understand Mr Shiny's reluctance.

@Færd Come around can be used with a somewhat similar idiomatic meaning, can't it?

BIG-95

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 the sentence belongs to an old scripture. "Regarding the Disc of the Balance and the events that came about when the disc was broken". It's from a game, The Longest Journey.

Cerberus

Oops, I should have made that a command.

Anonymous

I think they can probably come about, too.

Cerberus

Yay!

BIG-95

3:05 PM

so maybe "about" could be used in a "old way", old spoken, something like that

Anonymous

And I think it's at least somewhat noncompositional, so I would talk about the meaning of the words together, not the meaning of about by itself.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It sounds wrong to me. There are examples of it on ngrams, but ugh. I wouldn't write it like that.

Cerberus

@snailplane Agreed.

Anonymous

So I agree with @Færd too :-)

BIG-95

wait, is "come about" in that case a phrasal verb?

Færd

3:06 PM

@BIG-95 It's not old. The phrasal verb come about means happen. You don't have to break it apart and analyze it word by word, although that could be possible too.

@Cerberus Maybe things that happen regularly come around?

@snailplane :)

BIG-95

@Færd ok! Now I understand!

Færd

Good!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@BIG-95 google.ca/search?q=define:come%20about

BIG-95

guys, sorry... I'm learning English yet. I don't believe that I didn't notice that.

Anonymous

Too bad Google's define shortcut doesn't work for me.

Færd

3:09 PM

If you're going to be sorry for every mistake you're going to make, you're gonna be a whole lot of sorry.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@snailplane it doesn't?

Anonymous

Nope. My OS isn't set to English.

Færd

It mostly quotes ODO.

BIG-95

@Færd yes, I know. But sometimes I don't know what to say. I think just "thanks" would be enough...

Anonymous

Yeah, though I think they licensed the actual dictionary content rather than scraping the website.

Færd

3:10 PM

@BIG-95 Sure.

Cerberus

@Færd Hmm possibly.

Anonymous

I think Google has licensed the ODE and NOAD.

Færd

@snailplane You've gone all out in learning Japanese, haven't you!

Come to think of it, my OS is set to English, so we're basically doing the same thing.

Anonymous

I've been using an OS set to Japanese for so long, I'm just used to it :-)

Færd

Cool.

Anonymous

3:12 PM

I've been learning Japanese for about 19 years.

BIG-95

what do you guys say when you need to clean/wipe the plates and cutlery from lunch? "I need to wash the dishes"?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@snailplane huh. But Google is a website....

Anonymous

That sounds good, @BIG-95.

BIG-95

@snailplane I started my Japanese studies last year! It's so fun :D

Færd

@snailplane So maybe 'learner' is a bit below you're rank?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:13 PM

@BIG-95 you can say wash, clean, or do

BIG-95

@snailplane allright. That's I gonna do

Anonymous

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Websites usually get locale info from the browser, which usually gets it from the OS.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@snailplane But that's easily changed by setting your language preferences in the browser.

BIG-95

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Ok, thanks. Now in Brazil is lunch time

Anonymous

Yes, I could override it, but why do that when everything works the way I want it to automatically? :-)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:15 PM

@snailplane well, except google's define:

Anonymous

I didn't say I wanted to make it work.

Anonymous

I just said it was too bad it didn't. It makes define links unreliable, so sending them to other people isn't always a good idea.

Anonymous

That'll be true whether I change my own settings or not. Anyway, I have an electronic dictionary with the ODE and NOAD if I get curious :-)

Mitch

@tchrist Oh brother

Anonymous

And I get inline definitions if I search for 両成敗意味 or the like.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:19 PM

@snailplane When you go to google, is it google.jp? or google.com in japanese?

Anonymous

They're both in Japanese.

Færd

@Mitch That interjection feels .. fraternal.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@snailplane yes but which one is your default?

Færd

What's the female equivalent of fraternal?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

And what happens when you visit google.ca?

Anonymous

3:20 PM

I'm typing on an iPhone right now, which obscures Google URLs for some reason :-/

Mitch

@Færd That's my snap judgement too but the only substantive single predictor was ... amount of education (not how rich you were, but being a little rich and uneducated was more likely to vote for the winner than poorer and uneducated) seems weird to me too but that's the data.

Anonymous

On my desktop computer I just use .com

Mitch

@Færd sororal

Anonymous

Hey, google.ca is in Japanese too :-)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@snailplane yeah I just tested that in my other browser by removing the default languages and setting accept-language to Japanese.

Anonymous

3:22 PM

I think there's a URL argument you can add to force a language.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

If you click the link ("Google.ca is offered in English - French") to pick English, then define works

Færd

@Mitch Interesting!

Mitch

@BIG-95 Yes, exactly that. 'wash the dishes' or just 'clean up'

Anonymous

Maybe hl=en IIRC

Færd

Wait, you mean 'poorer and educated'?

Anonymous

3:23 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 google.co.jp/search?hl=en&q=define+dishwasher

Færd

@Mitch Oh sister.

Mitch

@Færd I know. One can, using a straightforward data argument, say that those people are stupid.

Anonymous

I added hl=en to the URL and it worked regardless of my locale :-)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@snailplane cool.

Mitch

@Færd The preacher began his sermon: 'Brethren and sistern'

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:24 PM

So now I'll try to remember to put hl=en in define links

Anonymous

I think if you do that they'll work for everyone.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The event is not a sail boat that is preparing to change direction.

Færd

@Mitch It's funny I knew the masculine ones but never heard of the feminine ones.

Sistern, sororal, etc

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch yeah. But maybe I just have an aversion to the phrase "come about"

Færd

I don't know why I could sympathize with Mr. Shiny that events are less likely to come about than, say, changes.

Anonymous

3:27 PM

Mitch

@snailplane 'definition' is what works for me

Anonymous

@Mitch Hmm, nope. Same outcome. Works if I add hl=en :-)

Mitch

@Færd sororal is a real word, but no-one uses it. sistern is a joke word and is not an archaic plural like brethren. it's a joe because 1) it doesn't exist, and 2) sounds like 'cistern' a well-like basin for holding water.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It's what you yell over the surf and gusts of wind that you're about to put the tiller far to the lee and to watch out for the boom to swing over your head, have the main sheet wrap itself around your neck and pull you overboard.

Færd

That explains it then.

Mitch

maybe that's an explanation for your aversion

Færd

3:31 PM

M-W says of sistern: "chiefly dialectal plural of sister"

Mitch

@Færd There are more possibilities of events that don't come about than the single one that does.

@Færd haha. really?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Færd Change is like a tangible thing. It can move like a wave.

Mitch

dictionaries will put anything in there

Færd

Where?

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 or bloom like a flower

or collapse like a building

Kit Z. Fox

3:33 PM

Events are digital. Changes are analog.

Færd

Events can fall down out of the blue. Thud.

Kit Z. Fox

Events either happen or they don't. They can't sort of happen.

Mitch

like a meteor...ite

Færd

Meteors don't thud, though.

Mitch

In space meteors just ... go.

Færd

3:36 PM

@KitZ.Fox Yeah. It feels slightly off saying "A sudden change came about.", I guess.

Mitch

@Færd IN the dictionary. It's fine for them to be descriptive, but they really need to say 'this word is not considered standard'. It's fine for them to be descriptive, but they need to have a frequency standard.

Cerberus

Agreed.

Mitch

@Færd hm... the weathermen often say 'there was a sudden change in the weather, because the things on either side aren't really events'

Færd

? I didn't mean to say changes are events.

I was going for the blurry line between changes and events, where events are gradual or changes are sudden. Come about loses some of its felicity there, I guess.

Anonymous

@Mitch -oid!

Mitch

3:41 PM

@snailplane Sorry. In space meteors gooid.

Anonymous

Much better.

Mitch

@Færd other way round

Færd

Which part?

Anonymous

@Mitch That's not true.

Anonymous

Sistren and sistern are both attested.

Mitch

3:44 PM

@snailplane I've only ever heard them in B Kliban cartoons

Anonymous

@Mitch You'd hear them more often if you spoke Middle English.

Anonymous

Y'know, with all those Middle English speakers out there.

Mitch

@snailplane plans vacation to middle England

scans brochure

changes plans to Aruba

Anonymous

If you'd like to see citations, look under sister in the OED.

Anonymous

It seems they died out around 1550 or so.

Færd

3:46 PM

And survived in some dialects.

Mitch

The usual suspects

Yorkshire?

Scots?

Anonymous

@Færd Maybe that's why the line's not quite at zero in the graph I pasted? I don't know what the data actually looks like.

Mitch

That lines in the graph are hard to read because the relative frequencies are many orders of magnitude apart

Anonymous

goo.gl/Bhz80L

Færd

Dunno. I based that on M-W.

Anonymous

3:48 PM

@Mitch That's why I showed it with the numbers for one year.

Anonymous

The numbers are basically at zero.

Anonymous

They could be entirely due to noise. I don't know.

Mitch

remove 'brethren' and you'll see better

Anonymous

I wasn't sure the numbers were significant enough for the lines to matter.

Anonymous

I need to start using a different URL shortener. (I don't really need to make URLs shorter so much as make URLs I can paste into chat without them breaking.) Google's CAPTCHAs are super obnoxious.

Mitch

3:50 PM

but yes noise. Not that OED or MW listens to google books, but the cutoff should be...somewhere below brethren

and by not mentioning it, somewhere maybe around brethern

dang it! I mentioned it!

Anonymous

Mentioner.

Mitch

Like "I'm not a racist but...'.

If you say "I'm not going to mention ..." you're probably going to mention it.

Anonymous

Apophasis

Apophasis (Greek ἀπόφασις from ἀπόφημι apophemi, "to say no") is a rhetorical device wherein the speaker or writer brings up a subject by either denying it, or denying that it should be brought up. Accordingly, it can be seen as a rhetorical relative of irony. The device is also called paralipsis (παράλειψις) – also spelled paraleipsis or paralepsis – or occupatio, and known also as praeteritio, preterition, antiphrasis (ἀντίφρασις), or parasiopesis (παρασιώπησις). == Usage == As a rhetorical device, apophasis can serve a number of purposes. It can be employed to raise an ad hominem or otherwise...

Mitch

Nixon famously didn't say that "I am not an apophasis"

terdon

@snailplane Huh. In modern Greek, apophasis (απόφαση/απόφασις) simply means "decision".

Helmar

7:20 PM

Oh boy

this is the worst conclusion I've seen in a while

22

A: "Sister site" vs "brother site"

'Brother company' - or 'brother (anything)' - would almost certainly be considered incorrect (in English). There's no logical reason why it should be incorrect, only historical. You're right that the first usage of "sister (object)" was probably for ships. I can't find anything earlier. We use ...

And it has 22 votes :(

The whole cultural thing at the end is like an example for bad statistics

Even though the answer started out quite good

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…