English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Tonepoet

12:21 AM

She wants to be cannibalized, but not in a restaurant...

Shafizadeh

12:50 AM

Is this correct? "Why my app stops working when I switch the place of elements?"

Tonepoet

1:01 AM

Unlike the others here, I really couldn't tell you why, but I'd put "does" after the "why".

Shafizadeh

ah ok

thx

Tonepoet

1:15 AM

@Shafizadeh I'd also say "the placement of the elements" come to think of it.

Shafizadeh

1:32 AM

@Tonepoet I see

JanRad

Hello there. Microsoft Words is telling me that my sentence is not grammatically correct but I cant find what exactly is wrong. "Includes built-in chat, multiple language markups and editor themes. "

I was thinking that maybe it should be: "languages markups and editors themes" but it sounds weird for me.

Tonepoet

That sentence does not appear to have a subject in my opinion.

I do not know if Microsoft Words would pick up on that though.

JanRad

Subject as in "who"? Like "It includes"?

Tonepoet

Yeah, try "it" and see if it passes.

JanRad

I added "s" to the end of "language" and "editor" and it worked. Then I took them away and added It in the front and it also worked so now I'm just confused but at least there is no "grammar error" highlight

so should I keep language and editor or change them to plural?

Snail Mail

1:48 AM

Anybody know any Japanese?

Tonepoet

I think the computer is being context insensitive if that's the problem.

Snail Mail

I'm stuck here where I have to respond to a Japanese email within a day :/

Unfortunately the Japanese chat room is empty

It's not so much answering, but understanding the request in the email

Tonepoet

I honestly wish I did but I don't.

Anonymous

@JanRad What exactly do you mean by "multiple language markups"? I want to suggest a way to rephrase that, but I can't until I'm sure what you're trying to say.

Snail Mail

Google Translate hasn't been very helpful

Anonymous

1:50 AM

What does the email say?

Anonymous

Japanese Language

General discussion for japanese.stackexchange.com

Snail Mail

@snailplane Fellow snail! :)

This is the email:

Anonymous

You're welcome to ask over there :-)

Snail Mail

@snailplane There's nobody there unfortunately :(

Here's the email:

誠に申し訳ございません。
今回、国外の送付先ご住所を頂いておりますが
弊社では海外への発送を行っておりません。

ご希望に添えず誠に申し訳ございませんが
ご注文者様ご住所、もしくはその他日本国内のご住所への
お届け先に変更して頂き、2016/08/03 9時迄に
弊社宛にご連絡下さいますようお願い致します。

ご連絡を頂けない場合には、ご注文のキャンセル処理をさせて頂きます事を
何卒ご了承下さいますようお願い致します。

Tonepoet

He said it's empty. The next best place would probably be the Anime stack exchange chat. There might be somebody who knows Japanese there...

Snail Mail

1:52 AM

I've understood that they can't deliver overseas but then they ask me something else

Anonymous

@Tonepoet Well, it doesn't really matter if it's empty, people pop in when people say things.

Snail Mail

@snailplane It doesn't appear to be a very active site, unfortunately

Tonepoet

That's true.

JanRad

@snailplane this is my sentence, its a description of one of my projects: "This web application allows people to program in pairs. It includes built-in chat, multiple languages markups and editor themes. "

Anonymous

@SnailMail Could you give them an address in Japan to ship to? If you don't, your order will be cancelled.

Tonepoet

1:53 AM

Also it's the snailiad!

Snail Mail

@snailplane That's much more meaningful than the garble I found :) Thank you

Anonymous

@Tonepoet Well, yes :-)

JanRad

by "multiple language markups" i mean that there are different highlights, colors etc. depending on which language you pick

tchrist

I encountered 17 giant land snails after a heavy-ish rain the other day. Perhaps it was one of them.

Anonymous

@SnailMail Well if, for example, you'd posted it in there, I would have responded in there in at least as timely a fashion :-)

Anonymous

1:55 AM

@tchrist Wow!

tchrist

Cornu aspersum, or whatever the plural of cornu is; it's got a funny declension. :)

Anonymous

It used to be Helix aspersa.

tchrist

Oh my! She's been neutered!

Tonepoet

Well I don't think you should pluralize language since it is being used as a descriptor of the word markup...

Snail Mail

@snailplane Well, you have been invaluable to my situation, so many thanks :)

tchrist

1:56 AM

-a > -um

Anonymous

@tchrist Yes, I wondered about that!

Anonymous

Well, to be honest, I still wonder :-)

Anonymous

I don't know why it changed.

tchrist

And I’m sure helix is feminine singular, not neuter plural, although you can't tell just by looking at aspersa.

Tonepoet

@tchrist The veterinarian would insist on using the word spayed. =P

tchrist

1:57 AM

I said and watched them for like 15 minutes.

Anonymous

I love watching snails. It's so relaxing.

Cerberus

Latin?

You called?

tchrist

-ix, -cis.

Why it changed from a spiral to a horn, hm. Maybe because of its antennae?

The Spanish plural is las hélices, but can you guess the singular?

It’s just la hélice, not la hélix.

I don't know why we have snails here.

Tonepoet

@Cerberus Yeah, I want to know why inspecific isn't a word. =P

Anonymous

I was surprised the first time I heard a snail's eyestalks referred to as its horns.

tchrist

2:02 AM

> Between 1774 and 1988 all authorities accepted the species as Helix aspersa, a member of the genus Helix. However, in a number of publications since 1990,[5] it has been placed in one of three other genera, depending on the classification in relation to Helix aperta and on the accepted interpretation of the ICZN Code's Article 1.3.2 on the Cornu problem.

Cerberus

@Tonepoet I can't think of a reason.

Tonepoet

Actually, I'm not that curious. I think it's because we already say "in specific" but I don't know how to prove that hypothesis.

Cerberus

Except that not all Latin adjectives can get in-.

Hmm.

But we don't say that in Dutch.

And yet there is no inspecifiek.

But Dutch uses fewer -ins than English.

Anonymous

@Tonepoet Probably blocking (the established existence of a lexically negated form like non-specific in the lexicon) coupled with the relatively low productivity of in- (we would probably need to have prefixed it earlier in the life of the word).

tchrist

Because it's non-.

Or un-.

Cerberus

2:04 AM

But why was it not prefixed in its early life?

Anonymous

@Cerberus That I don't know. I don't even know if it's true without looking it up.

tchrist

Because we used the word general.

Anonymous

Sometimes you can find surprising forms attested that are no longer used today.

tchrist

The opposite of specific is general.

Tonepoet

@cerberus It was first prefixed with un- for some reason.

tchrist

2:05 AM

Why don't we use unalive?

Anonymous

Markedness?

Cerberus

@snailplane That is true, but the the question would become: why did inspecific not survive?

Anonymous

@Cerberus Another question I wouldn't be able to answer :-)

Tonepoet

@tchrist Because we used undead instead. =P

Anonymous

It seems to me like a lot of the paths natural language goes down are arbitrarily selected. We say things now because we said them then.

Anonymous

2:07 AM

But sometimes we stop saying things or start saying new things, and sometimes the new things catch on and sometimes they don't.

Cerberus

@Tonepoet But barely before nonspecific.

Anonymous

I have no idea why in most cases.

Anonymous

Although it's fun to speculate :-)

Cerberus

@snailplane Absolutely.

But in many cases we just lack the knowledge to explain it, while it can be explained.

tchrist

> During a mating session of several hours, two snails exchange sperm. Cornu aspersum is one of the species that uses love darts during mating.

Charming.

Anonymous

2:10 AM

I think I just failed to make a chat room.

tchrist

Oh?

> The practice of rearing snails for food is known as heliciculture.

Apparently we all have the same snail.

Anonymous

My pet snails are Helix aspersa :-)

Anonymous

They're sleeping right now, hiding under some moss.

tchrist

There isn't much moss here.

coloradodaily.com/ci_13127534

But snails nonetheless.

> With its round, coiled shell we think this snail is cute; after all, we haven't had to deal with its appetite for destruction. But ask a nursery grower in California about it and they'll likely tell you this mollusk eats them out of $7 million to $10 million a year.

Well, don't leave the money lying around.

> This particular snail is edible; it arrived in our country both accidentally and intentionally as a way for escargot enthusiasts to raise their food locally, like chickens, goats, or pigs. But unlike their barnyard brethren, the snails felt the call of the wild, and being wily, escaped to live free on both U.S. shores.

Apparently we have a colony a few houses up the road.

Anonymous

Cepaea nemoralis is another very common snail, especially in Europe but also in North America. We don't really have them in California as far as I'm aware, but my friends in New England and Canada see them a lot.

Anonymous

2:17 AM

They're very pretty and have a lovely name, too.

Anonymous

That's from Wikipedia.

tchrist

I remember seeing those, but not here.

Tonepoet

One other hypothesis is that it sounds too similar to insufficient. How does that compare to dutch @Cerberus?

Cerberus

@Tonepoet I don't think it sounds that similar to insufficient?

tchrist

2:23 AM

@snailplane What does the taxon mean?

Cerberus

Sufficient is exceedingly rare in Dutch.

tchrist

Always wanting more, you Dutchers.

Tonepoet

Actually I was looking up sufficient. Heh.

Anonymous

@tchrist Cepaea comes from Greek κῆπαιος.

Anonymous

Or some form related to κήπος, anyway.

Anonymous

2:33 AM

I don't know if I have it right.

tchrist

@snailplane Yes, it means jardinero. :)

But seriously, gosh, why must they use Greek? :(

So many words I don't know.

> Not surprisingly, the name of the genus ( Cepaea ) comes from the Greek “κῆπαιος”, meaning “relevant to the garden”, whilst that of the species ( nemoralis ) comes from the Latin and means “inhabitant of the woods”.

photomazza.com/?Cepaea-nemoralis&lang=en

Tonepoet

Here's that problem I was talking about earlier mshafer's A.D.E.L. has specific but webstersdictionary1828'‌s does not. So frustrating...

tchrist

Portuguese has a word nemoral meaning sylvan which comes from the Latin adjective, but Spanish does not. I wonder how that happened.

> nemoral: Relativo a bosques ou neles existente.

Anonymous

@Tonepoet It's indexed on the website under specifical. The entry includes both the -ic and -ical forms.

tchrist

But it's not in Spanish, or at least, not in the DRAE.

Mitch

2:41 AM

@snailplane I want to pronounce that as speci-fickle

tchrist

speckleficity

Mitch

@tchrist with a lack of economic prosperity, fewer people had formal teaching, and so more educated terms would have been more volatile.

Tonepoet

Ah, I see @snailplane though that'll never explain why both websites lack his entry for rank as a noun.

tchrist

Mister Bill has never been short on words, has he?

Mitch

@tchrist he's obviously educated

tchrist

2:45 AM

Oxbridge.

More ox than bridge.

Tonepoet

Oxbridge University...

tchrist

He went to college at University College at Oxford University. Got that?

Tonepoet

Did you say Cambridge? My hearing's so bad that I can't see anything.

Speaking of Oxford, is anybody else disappointed that the third edition of the O.E.D. won't be printed, or is it just me? I mean, I know the full 40 volumes would be ridiculous but a C.E.O.E.D. 3 would be nice...

Mitch

paper is so last century

DVDs are out

thumb drives pretty soon

a permanent cloud memory will come and go in 30 years

replaced by

a bionetwork of cell-enabled human brain interfaces

Tonepoet

3:01 AM

That's my problem with it. If it only lasts for 30 years, it isn't very permanent, is it? XD

Mitch

and then a pill

@Tonepoet haha. I still like cassette tapes

c30 c60 c90 go

BOW WOW WOW - C30 C60 C90 Go

►

They all went to Oxford

pfft..couldn't get into Cambridge. Oxford was their back up school

Tonepoet

You just reminded me of a failed conspiracy, Mitch.

stack

3:52 AM

Which one is correct?
- It is containing the user's id
- It contains user's id

Anonymous

@Tonepoet It doesn't seem like a very good website.

Tonepoet

@snailplane O.D.O?

tchrist

4:11 AM

19

A: 'Predator' is to 'Predatory' as 'Prey' is to...?

In Latin, prædātōrius:prædātor::prædātus:prædātīcius/prædātītius. Nouns prædātor and prædātus are antonyms. Corresponding adjectives are prædātōrius and prædātīcius. Therefore English antonym to predatory should be predaticious/predatitious (Latin meaning “taken as booty or plunder” per Lewis &...

@Cerberus ^^^^^^^^^^^

@Tonepoet Yes. Impractical though it may be.

SmokeDetector

4:40 AM

[ SmokeDetector ] Offensive answer detected: One word for a watch enthusiast / watch lover by nick lockett on english.stackexchange.com …

Anonymous

5:34 AM

@Tonepoet I was referring to the website someone put up at webstersdictionary1828.com.

Tonepoet

@tchrist I wish I could read pronunciation keys because I'm not sure if my objection to that answer is accurate or not. It looks too similar to predacious.

@snailplane I don't really see anything obviously wrong with it. I wish they kept the ability to browse individual entries though. Mshafer's website looks worse, but it's basically what I have to tolerate now that A.R.T.F.L. Project's version is down.

Anonymous

@Tonepoet It's just a mediocre interface to data in the public domain. I feel like you should be able to find a better interface, or maybe just grab the data in text format and search it yourself.

Anonymous

As you pointed out, only one of the entries for rank is available on the website. Why are the others seemingly missing?

Anonymous

Through some fault of the person or people who put the website together.

Tonepoet

5:49 AM

@snailplane I don't know, even A.R.T.F.L. Project had that flaw and they're quite reputable.

If I had to guess, everybody may've just taken A.R.T.F.L. Project's data instead of going through the effort of transcribing it themselves, except the E.D.L. lexicon which uses the 1844 edition as it's source because that's the edition of A.D.E.L. Emily Dickinson preferred. However The E.D.L. is also flawed in similar ways.

However double checking with them is still good because the E.D.L. tends to be the most complete searchable interface. They have the word Rank in all of its forms at least.

Anonymous

@Tonepoet Well, reputable or not, doesn't it give you a rather negative impression when a portion of the data is missing, and the website presents it to you as though there's no problem?

Anonymous

Have you reported the problem, by the way?

Tonepoet

@snailplane Yes, although there is some difficulty in the task of transcribing large books, esp. given that there's not as much money in servicing public domain content.

Nah, I'm not really the type to do that.

I considered reporting it to ARTFL project once. Started transcribing the entry from my facsimile.

ktm5124

7:06 AM

Hi guys. I'm writing an email and I'm debating whether to say "I read inside the plaza" or "I read in the plaza". Any thoughts?

I think "read in the plaza" is more logical, but "read inside the plaza" sounds better to the ear.

Tonepoet

Inside suggests the plaza is enclosed. I think at is probably the most accurate preposition.

ktm5124

@Tonepoet Thanks, that's a good point.

Yeah, I didn't think of "at" but that's probably best. Although do you think "in" would be fine, too? I sent the email and that's what I chose.

Tonepoet

In is okay. In fact ngrams doesn't even recognize "at" as an option in this case, which I think is absurd but oh well...

ktm5124

The only option I see there is "read in the plaza". Does that discard both "at" and "inside"?

(Or am I somehow using it wrong?)

Tonepoet

You surround the words with brackets, then you put the universal resource locator in parenthesis immediately afterwards.

I can understand why you thought it would be B.B. Code thought.

ktm5124

7:19 AM

This ngrams is also interesting

Yay!

You can see that "at" is an option but "in" is more common.

Tonepoet

Yeah, much more so in fact.

I must've entered the data incorrectly.

ktm5124

ngrams is really cool

Tonepoet

Keep in mind that it only searches a limited selection of books though, so its representation of the language is biased.

ktm5124

Yeah

I like plazas. They make me feel important :)

Tonepoet

The Contemporary Corpus of American English is better in some respects, if you're willing to register. It includes televised speech and the such.

ktm5124

7:25 AM

Oh cool

Tonepoet, what are your favorite books?

Tonepoet

7:39 AM

I don't read enough. I liked the Hobbit by Tolkein and Roald Dahl is also a good writter. You might want to read The Hitchhiker, which you can find in The Wonderful Story of Henry Sugar and Six More

ktm5124

Thanks! I've always been intrigued by Roald Dahl.

Tonepoet

Oh, I also read all sixty Sherlock Holmes stories. That was lovely work

ktm5124

All sixty? cool!

Did you see the BBC show?

Tonepoet

Nah, I didn't.

ktm5124

It's pretty good. Nice to see the London scenery.

Lawrence

7:42 AM

@ktm5124 Elementary, really. :P

Tonepoet

Keep in mind that some of the stories might not be available on that website due to still being copyright protected.

Lawrence

Impressive, though :) .

ktm5124

@Lawrence Haha, is that a Sherlock joke? (My Sherlock knowledge is limited.)

Lawrence

@ktm5124 Yes. It's his catchphrase.

ktm5124

@Lawrence I see.

Tonepoet

7:44 AM

Sherlock Holmes often says "It's elementary..." and "My dear Watson" although some people have mistakenly merged the lines together, despite the fact that it never occurring in the books.

ktm5124

Elementary is a great word.

I don't use it enough.

Right now I'm working through the Torah (very slowly). I just read the part on the Water of Cleansing, which is interesting, because the ancient Israelites have a grasp of what makes soap.

Mitch

1:16 PM

@Tonepoet Sounds like a subplot to a Monty Python movie, when Brian is visiting his mom in Nazareth.

The Judean People's Condensed OED Front

Kit Z. Fox

@RejlanGivens I apologize for not catching up with you yesterday. I am at a business meeting right now. I didn't realize how much time I was committed to. Let's catch up tomorrow, if that works for you.

Cerberus

0

A: 'Predator' is to 'Predatory' as 'Prey' is to...?

The word predal, "of or pertaining to plunder/prey", is now obsolete (so says the Oxford English Dictionary), but it has been used, so it could work in a literary context. Latin praeda means "plunder" but also "prey", which is why words like predator have been derived from it. So predal or praeda...

Færd

@snailplane None of those words has a single occurrence in COCA, COHA or BNC (except for deipnosophist, which is used exactly once, as a proper name (of an Ancient Greek cooking guide)). I don't understand why someone would bother with them so much.

Tonepoet

@Mitch As far as lexicography goes, Oxford has become a joke. They don't even know the difference between a word and a picture is anymore, if they ever knew what a word was since the beginning! (Their original primary definition was nonstandard since it lacked any sense of meaning)

It's not at all surprising that their antics are funny...

I'm also disappointed with their "new word" books they've frequently published, which mostly just detail new meanings to old words, proper nouns and abbreviations.

Cerberus

1:34 PM

I use the second edition.

Tonepoet

I only have the first to be honest, what I see from O.D.O. and a few things from their blog 'n such.

Perhaps I should have qualified my statement though. The O.E.D. is a repsectable work as far as I can tell if it's used properly. It's just that you should go to it last, rather than first because it seems to assume a grasp of the language in order to achieve its goals. It's a great source of quotations and definitely covers more meanings than any other dictionary. The word entry is like, four pages long.

Dan Bron

1:53 PM

@Tonepoet I think you're the only person I know who fully period-ifies acronyms. For a while there I didn't even recognize what you meant by A.H.D.E.L.

Is there a word for periodification? Delimits? Demarcates? Marks-up?

Tonepoet

I do not know if there is a special word for it. I just say I punctuate my acronyms.

Cerberus

@Tonepoet What's wrong with assuming a grasp of the language?

Dan Bron

I wonder when society stopped punctuation acronyms generally..

terdon

@DanBron I still don't, is it the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language?

Tonepoet

@Cerberus There's nothing inherently wrong with that. It's just that people treat the O.E.D. as they would any other dictionary.

Cerberus

2:01 PM

I'm not sure who "people" are, nor what treating it as any other dictionary entails!

I use the Oxford English Dictionary (why use abbreviations?) as my primary dictionary. I only use an online dictionary when I want to look something up quick and easy.

Dan Bron

@terdon Yeah. Funny thing is I would have recognized it instantly spelled as AHDEL as opposed to A.H.D.E.L. . I'm just not used to acronyms being punctuated any more.

terdon

Yeah, me neither. Although I'd have just called it the AHD. Is it commonly referred to as AHDEL?

Tonepoet

Keep in mind that A.H.D.E.L. is different from A.D.E.L. The first is William Morris' Dictionary, whereas the second is Noah Webster's.

terdon

@Tonepoet Isn't Webster's just called Webster's?

Cerberus

None of those terms mean anything to me.

Tonepoet

2:08 PM

@terdon That wasn't until Merriam-Webster bought the rights from Webster's heirs after he died.

Or rather, as they were known at the time, Merriam Co.

Now it's technically the Britannica Corp. that owns the rights to the Merriam-Webster name.

terdon

oh. OK

tchrist

@terdon I don't think that the Morris Dictionary has an apostrophe.

Tonepoet

I used the apostrophe because it's meant as a possessive tchrist.

tchrist

Are there many Morris?

You mean Morris's?

terdon

@tchrist Websters and not Webster's, you mean?

Tonepoet

2:15 PM

@tchrist I don't know really. I've read conflicting information on how to punctuate possessives in a word that already has an s.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Tonepoet You punctuate it the way you say it.

user685272

^

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

You'd say "morrises" so you write Morris's

tchrist

The apostrophe is never pronounced /əz/.

That's what letters are for. :)

Tonepoet

It's debatable. I'm not beholden to follow any one style guide's suggestions, so I don't care about the specifics, yet. When I learn something more about it, I'll be insistent upon doing it a certain way but I'm not seeking the information yet.

terdon

2:20 PM

@tchrist Tell that to Victor Borge

Victor Borge - Phonetic Punctuation

►

Færd

Since when did you start smoking? vs Since when have you started smoking?

I expected BrE to prefer the latter, but to my bafflement: goo.gl/xk1jpr

terdon

@Færd When did you start smoking

Or, if you must, since when have you been smoking

Both of your examples seem off to me

Færd

Why?

terdon

I think it's the combination of since when and start. You can't really have started since a date, you started on the date or you've been doing it since the date.

Færd

I agree. Thanks.

Mitch

2:26 PM

@Tonepoet Are you implying that OED makes picture books now?

runs to store

"We will accommodate any individual request - no matter how unusual, providing it is legal and decent,"

That's kind of a bait and switch

Tonepoet

@Mitch I'm not even suggesting it. I'm stating that for a fact. =P

Mitch

first you say 'any', and that makes me think of ideas, but then you slap me back with your bourgeois 'rules' and 'law enforcement' and no 'live dismemberment'.

This is so bogus man

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Tonepoet There isn't much debate about it, is there?

Cerberus

@Tonepoet Traditional is s's for singular, s' for plural, I believe.

It does depend on how you would pronounce it.

But I believe it's traditional to say Achilleusiz slave girl.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

71

Q: What is the correct possessive for nouns ending in "‑s"?

What is the possessive of a noun ending in ‑s? Are these both right, or is the second one wrong? the boys' books the boss' car

the definitive answer is right here on our site

Cerberus

2:32 PM

> There is a partial exception for proper names that end in -s. These names sometimes form their possessive by simply adding an apostrophe, and without changing their pronunciation.

This doesn't sound very definitive.

By the way, that question would be stamped and trampled into the ground nowadays by our GOM (Grumpy Old Men).

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 there's a meta-debate though...do you follow one standard or do you try to find the greatest common denominator of the standards and pick and choose where they differ? Or another meta question...do you rely on copy-editors (like New Yorker) to punctuation edit your work, or do you take it upon yourself to enforce rules? Or a meta meta question... do you follow any standard strictly or do you allow leniency?

Tonepoet

On the main website we can't even agree upon a universal method of pronouncing a regular word is pronounced even without such exceptional cases, so saying you do it how you pronounce it isn't very helpful of a rule. In fact, I always add the extra s sound in actual speech, so suggesting that sometimes you use the s and sometimes you don't based upon that seems counter-intuitive.

Mitch

It's best to do what other people do, unless they're wrong

Cerberus

Why is that counter-intuitive?

Spelling follows speech seems fairly intuitive?

Mitch

@Tonepoet Wait, are you serious about that?

Tonepoet

2:36 PM

@mitch Is there a reason I shouldn't be?

tchrist

35

A: Which singular names ending in “s” form possessives with only a bare apostrophe?

The most useful rule — and the most general and the easiest to remember — is simply that you add ’s whenever you actually say an extra /əz/ at the end when forming the possessive, compared with how you say the non-possessive version. Let your own ear be your guide. That’s all there is to it. No ...

Tonepoet

@Cerberus The counter-intuitive thing is that it makes an exception for a rule, that is never applied. A catch-22 so to speak.

tchrist

Plz dnt contribyoot too badings.

Cerberus

Huh?

Mitch

@Tonepoet Yes, because your words seem contrary to what most people would think about the OED. They're not perfect, but they're probably the best. Best is not necessarily great, but they are pretty good (an understatement).

Are you referring to emoji by chance?

tchrist

2:38 PM

What is emo?

@Tonepoet The only "rule" that matters is that you spell what you say.

Tonepoet

If that's consistent from person to person maybe but what if different people pronounce it differently? Then what you're saying is that the rules of punctuation vary on a reader by reader basis.

Or at least that's how it'd work insofar as whether they're determining if I made a mistake.

tchrist

We are(n’t) talking — about punctuation, but about spelling...you...know.

If two people say different words, then two people say different words.

Tonepoet

I suppose that's fair since it's about whether to add an extra letter or not.

tchrist

extra sound = extra letter

Focus on speech not orthography.

A lot of people wan't to write thing's wrong, but that dozzint mean their write.

If speech is your guide, you cannot go wrong in this particular matter of spelling possessives.

If speech is not your guide, then you will seldom go right in it.

Tonepoet

That's assuming I don't mispronounce it.

tchrist

2:46 PM

Native speakers don't screw up the pronunciation very often, if ever.

terdon

Ah, I was wondering if you'd narrow it down. The "you spell what you say" rule breaks down pretty quickly when we leave possessives behind.

Mitch

@tchrist Or if they make mistakes, they make the right mistakes

tchrist

There are some rustics who uses fisheseseses, but I don't know that they can write.

Mitch

@tchrist Tha'ts rusticist

tchrist

It's locative.

And locotive.

Mitch

2:48 PM

Oh. Sorry. Rusticiste!

Tonepoet

I don't know if I've ever even heard the name of William Morris pronounced before come to think of it.

tchrist

Why would you need to?

Tonepoet

I certainly haven't possessively.

Apparently so I can know for sure whether I must put an s after the apostrophe or not...

tchrist

That doesn't make any sense.

What would you do if your furnace's fuel line were plugged?

Same answer.

Tonepoet

Unclog it?

terdon

2:52 PM

Remove the apostrophe, of course. The larger ones wreak havoc on pipes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Tonepoet Morris has only one likely pronunciation. More than one Morris: Morrises. One Morris owns something? Morris's. Sounds the same. Lots of Morrises own something? Morrises'.

Rookie mistake, putting apostrophes into the fuel.

tchrist

The plural, the possessive, and the plural possessive all sound the same for regular nouns.

> surfaces, surface’s, surfaces’

Tonepoet

Okay, so perhaps I was mistaken earlier about my pronunciations now that I have some concrete and certain examples. I'm still going to reserve final judgement though.

tchrist

> Candaces, Candace’s, Candaces’
Lovelesses, Loveless’s, Lovelesses’

It’s really very simple. I honestly fail to understand why so many people make it so hard that they get it wrong.

> kisses, kiss’s, kisses’

> geniuses, genius’s, geniuses’
genera, genus’s, genera’s

Note that the last one doesn't count because it isn't regular in English. :)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist well, it still follows the rule of "write it like you say it"

> oxen, ox's, oxen's

tchrist

3:02 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That it does. But I was referring to "The plural, the possessive, and the plural possessive all sound the same for regular nouns."

Tonepoet

So why does Socrotes get the one s treatment?

I'd almost certainly say Socroteses ...

Mitch

nit, nit's, lice, lice's

tchrist

@Tonepoet Same reason as series and species.

Tonepoet

I'm not completely convinced by those examples either....

Mitch

So a member of a series is a serie?

tchrist

3:04 PM

Because nouns that already end in unstressed /iz/ are invariant in pronunciation for their possessives.

Tonepoet

It's probably etymological though.

tchrist

No.

Mitch

I've seen backformation for 'specie'

tchrist

It's phonological not etymological.

@Mitch In specie is a different case — ablative to be precise.

terdon

@Tonepoet Really? Huh, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't.

Mitch

3:07 PM

memory is the worst. I'm sure I've seen it used as the singular of species as a normal english noun (not in in specie)

tchrist

@terdon I couldn't either. It's the unstressed /iz/ rule.

terdon

I'm sure it is, whatever that is. I just know I wouldn't have said it that way.

tchrist

When I say "rule" here, I probably meant "law"; something that describes what invariably happens not something that prescribes what is supposed to happen.

@Mitch Like the singular of conscience being conscient.

Mitch

@tchrist or one picket of a picket fence being a 'fent'

This all feels weird being so on topic and all.

Is the subtext really sex, religion, and politics?

tchrist

I don't see how that fen’ce paint needs changing.

Mitch

3:11 PM

You're whitewashing the issue

Tonepoet

Series is an important word to me, given that I love serial fiction, so I'm going to look into this further.

Mitch

Cereal fiction is putting vitamins in your Cap'n Crunch

and if there are many captains and together they own something, then it's the Cap'n's's

Tonepoet

Sorry but there can only be one Cap'n: Cap'n Picard. =P

Rejlan Givens

@KitZ.Fox No worries Kitz, any time is fine with me, I'll look you up here tomorrow then.

Tonepoet

Come to think of it, the only time I recollect hearing of a series possibly possessing something is in the case "series finale" but that's arguably a noun-adjunct.

Are there any cases where somebody writes "series' finale" instead? It'd seem like that'd make the most sense if it's pronounced the same either way.

Mitch

3:26 PM

@Tonepoet hm...never thought of it that way.

Now I'm going to be thinking of that all day.

like how you're suddenly aware of your tongue, just sitting there inside your mouth. especially after eating a beef tongue sandwich.

Tonepoet

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one Mitch. I was beginning to feel a little crazy here. XD

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Tonepoet Just cuz you're not alone doesn't mean you're not crazy. Esp if Mitch is your reference point :p

Tonepoet

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Even so, misery enjoys company. =P

@Mitch Also, I kinda got sidetracked. I was referring to the emoji and emoticons they're including in the dictionary now. I don't mind their inclusion in a reference work but they're not words anymore than an actual smile is a word...

tchrist

3:44 PM

nevermore

Tonepoet

Tonepoet searches for nevermore series finale

tchrist

This species’ hallmark is its prodigious song.

But place your hand in the wound and you will cease to doubt, Thomas.

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