English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

There was no other light in the hall, except the glow of the wood fire, and an occasional sparkle of flame, as one log, slowly crumbling to ruin, reeled over and struck against the others, spluttering sparks as it fell. Does this "splutter" modify sparkle of flame?

Cerberus

No, log.

In theory, it could modify sparkle of flame, but log is closer.

Besides, it fits the meaning better: the log reels over and falls.

Robusto

. . . log . . . reeled . . . and struck . . . others, spluttering sparks as it fell.

@Cerberus: What ho, doggy, got your Zwarte Piet makeup all ready?

user4215

but my interpretation is grammatically possible?

Robusto

Your interpretation, if that's what it is, ignores the facts.

A sparkle of flame does not fall. It rises. Flames rise, logs fall. It's that simple.

Jasper Loy

1:43 AM

Logs rise and flames fall in a magical world.

Robusto

Unfortunately, we don't live in that world.

Jasper Loy

Yes, a magical world will be better than the sick world we are in.

Robusto

The Year of Magical Thinking

The Year of Magical Thinking (2005), by Joan Didion (b. 1934), is an account of the year following the death of the author's husband John Gregory Dunne (1932–2003). Published by Knopf in October 2005, The Year of Magical Thinking was immediately acclaimed as a classic book about mourning. It won the 2005 National Book Award for Nonfiction and was a finalist for both the National Book Critics Circle Award and the Pulitzer Prize for Biography/Autobiography. == Structure and themes == The book recounts Didion's experiences of grief after Dunne's 2003 death of a cardiac arrest in their New Yo...

Jasper Loy

That's why some people imagine such a world in their minds, to help them cope with the pains of life.

Robusto

@JasperLoy I'll let you in on a little secret: we do live in a magical world, if you could but see it.

Jasper Loy

1:45 AM

@Robusto Deep.

Robusto

You can be dismissive if you like, but will that make you feel any better?

Jasper Loy

I was not dismissing your statement. I think it is genuinely deep.

You forgot that I don't know how to use sarcasm.

Robusto

Do you ever listen to music, Jasper?

Jasper Loy

Yes, but not much these days.

One of my favourite songs is "There can be miracles when you believe".

Robusto

You know what I suggest? Look into helping people who are not as fortunate as you.

Jasper Loy

1:49 AM

OK.

Robusto

Maybe you think you can't find people less fortunate than yourself, but I'm pretty sure you can.

Jasper Loy

Yes, there certainly are.

Robusto

Shift the focus from inward to outward. Let the energy flow in that direction. As it is now, it's got no good outlet, so it messes with your head.

Cerberus

@Robusto Umm Zwarte Piet and Sinterklaas leave the country after the 5th of December.

I did have a good Christmas dinner this evening.

Robusto

@Cerberus So they cause all that trouble and then vamoose?

What did you eat?

Cerberus

1:56 AM

No trouble at all!

They leave us pepernoten to eat, and letters of chocolate.

Mmm we had like 10 different dishes.

A salad with avocado and mango.

Robusto

Are pepernoten the same as pfeffernüssen?

Cerberus

Onion soup in hollowed onions. With very intricate "croutons".

Most probably!

Robusto

One of my favorite treats, those.

Cerberus

Good.

Robusto

So I'm thinking of asking a question on ELU.

Cerberus

1:58 AM

But, alas, supermarkets stop selling them the second Sinterklaas leaves.

Oh, dear!

Robusto

You know how we all accept that there can be a "singular" they? As in, "If someone wants to watch TV, they'll have to do the dishes"?

I think I found the basic flaw in that whole argument. What do we do about reflexive pronouns? "If someone wants to watch TV, they'll have to do the dishes all by themselves." Huh? How does that work?

Cerberus

Well, of course I do not accept it, but go on.

@Robusto Well, people actually say that, don't they?

Robusto

By "we" I mean all good little liberal prescriptivists.

Cerberus

I see.

I am very liberal, except when it comes to aesthetics.

Robusto

@Cerberus I don't know. But it sounds even worse that way.

Cerberus

2:01 AM

I do not disagree...

It shows how awful the whole they really is, the less common consequences.

Robusto

Anyway, do you think that passes the sniff test for a question on ELU? Bearing in mind that we have some pretty smelly questions, of course.

Cerberus

Is the question "do people actually say that?", or what is it?

Robusto

And the only alternative is to snap it back to the singular: all by themself.

Which is nonsense.

Cerberus

Nooo that is even worse.

Robusto

Hence nonsense.

Cerberus

2:02 AM

Indeed.

If someone wants to watch television, he'll have to do the dishes all by himself.

Done.

Robusto

Do you think it would be seen as trolling the site to ask such a question?

Jasper Loy

@Cerberus Wait, what's wrong with using themselves there?

@Robusto No, I think it's a very good question.

Cerberus

@Robusto Can you formulate the question very precisely?

@JasperLoy Well, it's singular, it is about one person.

Jasper Loy

@Cerberus But since we have the singular they, we can also have the singular themselves.

Cerberus

"We"? I have it not.

Robusto

2:07 AM

I'm looking for a question to which the answer is "singular they is fine" and so far can't come up with one.

Cerberus

I'm still not entirely sure what you're looking for.

But I'm not entirely sober yet.

Jasper Loy

@Cerberus So that is the best way to say it?

Cerberus

Yes.

Jasper Loy

Then why do people even bother using the singular they?

Robusto

@Cerberus You mean you're sobering up? You're moving in the wrong direction, friend.

183

A: Is there a correct gender-neutral, singular pronoun ("his" versus "her" versus "their")?

Singular they enjoys a long history of usage in English and can be used here: "Each student should save their questions until the end." However, “singular they” also enjoys a long history of criticism. If you are anxious about being criticized (for what is in fact a perfectly grammatical constru...

There we go.

Cerberus

2:11 AM

@Robusto Well, the night has ended.

> On the purchasing power basis, China is overtaking the US right about now and becoming the world’s biggest economy.

We’ve just gone past that cross-over on the chart below, according to the IMF. By the end of 2014, China will make up 16.48% of the world’s purchasing-power adjusted GDP (or $17.632 trillion), and the US will make up just 16.28% (or $17.416 trillion):

At least Europe will still be ahead...

But not by that much.

Robusto

@Cerberus There's no such thing as Europe. It's just a lot of little countries. If Germany went it alone, that whole house of cards would fall.

Cerberus

So would America if California did the same thing.

Or if California and New York did the same thing at the same time (Germany is much larger).

Jasper Loy

No such thing as a country, just a lot of little companies.

Cerberus

Haha.

And little people.

Robusto

Tru dat.

Actually, it's "a few big companies."

Cerberus

2:17 AM

Hehe.

No comment...

Jasper Loy

Yeah, like Amazon, lol.

Robusto

Anyway, China has other problems. I would still rather live in America than China. Also note that our GDP grew by 5% this year, and looks to keep on going.

0

Q: The hidden flaw in singular "they"—what do we do about reflexive pronouns?

We have a highly regarded answer by nohat to a question about gender-neutral pronouns, in which he points to the "singular they" and its long history of use in English. (Note that he also advises against using it.) Example: If someone wants to watch TV tonight, they'll have to do the dishes. ...

See what you think? Is it enough? Does it need something else?

Jasper Loy

@Robusto From knickers in a twist to panties in a bunch? LOL.

Robusto

Two ways of saying the same thing.

Jasper Loy

I learnt both from you. But there's no way for me to use them except in this chat.

Robusto

2:24 AM

Still, you are free to swing away to your heart's content here.

Nobody gonna give me an uptick, eh? I see how it works.

Jasper Loy

@Robusto I am too lazy to log in now. I only logged in to chat.

Robusto

Maybe I should be lazy too. Feels like bedtime coming on. Christmas Eve tomorrow! Presents! Family! Food! Fun!

Not necessarily in that order.

Jasper Loy

I am going to sleep soon too. It's 10.30 am here.

No presents or fun here, but family and food yes.

Cerberus

@Robusto Of course America is a much better place than China.

And I would rather have America rule over the world than China.

@Robusto +1

Some people may vote to close it as opinion based.

Jasper Loy

@Cerberus I think it is not opinion based at all.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

3:01 AM

I was just talking about China.

Jasper Loy

Hi @cornbreadninja麵包忍者 why are you not sleepin?

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

I trust we've all seen that? ^

@JasperLoy it is but 9PM.

Robusto

3:27 AM

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 I get it.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

It's hilarious!

Okay, it's not hilarious. It is funny, however.

Robusto

China is rhyming slang for "mate" . . .

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 "Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man."

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Ha.

Have you had the pleasure? english.stackexchange.com/users/18399/cornbread-ninja-

Robusto

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 The pleasure of . . . ?

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Also funny.

The way Solstice fits on my face.

Jasper Loy

3:31 AM

Both of you have the same hat.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@JasperLoy Dad, he's copying me.

Hey room name, it ain't Solstice anymore.

Jasper Loy

It's weird that the subtitle keeps changing.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Yeah, that.

Robusto

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Mine too. I have red eyes.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Not the room name.

Jasper Loy

3:32 AM

I would prefer it to be serious and constant.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Robusto ha!

nudges @Rob

Robusto

room topic changed to English Language & Usage: It's beginning to look a lot like flying spaghetti monsters (no tags)

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Aww.

I wanted you to change it to 'Serious and constant.'

Jasper Loy

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Not funny, lol.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Is too!

Robusto

3:34 AM

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 How am I to know these things?

Aww, someone canceled out @Cerb's +1 on my "singular they" question.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Robusto Good point.

Robusto

Have people no sense of humor? Where's the Christmas spirit around here?

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Robusto I have some vodka in the freezer.

Robusto

I have scotch at room temp.

That reminds me . . . mmm, scotch!

Jasper Loy

I have water in the fridge.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

3:37 AM

We got chicken in the barn.

Robusto

Swing your partner and dosey-do!

I got some Benromach, which is very nice. Also Bunnahabhain and Oban "Little Bay".

Follow that, killer.

I am going to sleep, good night.

Robusto

Good morning.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Here's a clip of the same song from the same show.

►

Little Richard blew the doors off of Jerry Lee Lewis.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

3:44 AM

@Robusto damn.

Robusto

Jerry Lee Lewis was a rock 'n' roll star. Little Richard was a force of nature.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 He takes on Elvis next.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Everything's so lame now.

Robusto

Processed.

Pressed, chopped, flaked and formed.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Robusto he sure does.

Robusto

I would have loved to see that concert.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

3:54 AM

At least you were alive.

Robusto

I saw some pretty good conerts, too.

Cerberus

@Robusto Warntcha!

Hello, Corny!

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Cerberus Hi Cerby!

Cerberus

Whatcha up to?

Bread still baking strong?

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Same stuff, mostly. I think. What do you remember?

Robusto

3:59 AM

►

Cerberus

I didn't know you stuffed your bread.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

We Americans stuff everything.

Usually with cheese.

Robusto

Look at turducken, for example.

Cerberus

in The Frying Pan, Dec 20 at 21:41, by Cerberus

We stuff bread too!

Robusto

Get stuffed!

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

4:01 AM

@Cerberus yum!

Robusto

"Stuff" is such a great word.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Robusto I haven't heard that in a very long time.

Robusto

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Did you ever see the whole Stop Making Sense in the theater?

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Robusto do what now?

Robusto

The film, Stop Making Sense. Concert film of Talking Heads. Directed by Jonathan Demme.

Did you see it?

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

4:03 AM

No.

Robusto

A shame. Maybe the best concert film ever. But the DVD version fucks it up.

Mitch

@Cerberus People make a big deal out of that stuff. I don't get it. It's trying to be cake but is all dry and crumbly.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

:(

Robusto

The whole thing builds, has a great shape, great intensity . . . and the DVD version cuts out the three songs that make the climax. Huge case of musical blue balls.

Mitch

notes not to get the DVD

So how do you the good version? Go back 30 years?

Robusto

4:05 AM

I don't know how they could do that to it. I mean, there's two ways to hate that film. The first is just to hate it, the second is to do that to it.

@Mitch Apparently. I waited for the Blu-Ray to come out, figuring they would have "fixed it in the mix" . . . but no.

Mitch

I've never bothered with bluray. I'm waiting for direct mental upload.

user4215

is it common to say

"I think I'll get outside of cheese burgers!"

to mean overeat

Mitch

or tapping it out...dum-de-dum da-da-da dum diddly dum.... da dum.

guess the tune!

@user4215 no that is not common. but it sounds like something someone would say to be clever.

user4215

but even in Brit English?

the OED says its brit english

Robusto

@user4215 That may be the first time that sentence has ever been uttered. So . . . common? I don't think so.

Mitch

4:09 AM

and since it is probably in a very informal context, it'd be more natural to say "I'ma get me outside some cheeseburgers"

@user4215 I'm not a brit speaker so I wouldn't know.

user4215

whats the mental image here?

Mitch

Pretty much blank. Robusto has spots though.

user4215

get ouside of cheeseburgers

go out?

Mitch

Oh the mental image of the cheesburgers?

user4215

why it means to overeat

Mitch

4:11 AM

the implication is that by eating a cheeseburger, you are actually putting your body around the cheesburger. Get it?

user4215

hmmm

thats hard for me

Mitch

no no... you mean "mmmmmm..."

user4215

another way?

Mitch

It's not really about overeating, it's just about eating.

Well, as mentioned before I'm not a brit speaker so I don't what is going through their crazy @MattЭллен head. Probably something unmentionable.

user4215

oh ok

thanks

but its common to say

"hey, where's my dessert? Oh!! You put it away?" to mean eat?

Mitch

4:14 AM

Not at all in the US.

Cerberus

@Mitch If it's freshly baked and the bread is good, it won't be dry. But I hate that kind of almond paste, and I hate candied fruits, so...

I will have to eat it on Christmas Day, it's tradition.

user4215

@Mitch?

Cerberus

I remove the almond paste or eat around it.

Robusto

@cornbread and I are the only truly sunny folks in chat right now.

Mitch

@user4215 I can see how in some contexts "to put something away" might mean to east, but the first thought that comes to mind with that sentence is that you just stored it in a cupboard.

@Cerberus ha ha, never had it fresh. always in a gift box many days away from fresh. Marzipan would totally ruin it (even worse that is) for me.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

4:16 AM

►

Mitch

@Robusto You're not looking at mine close enough.

Cerberus

@Mitch I agree: I absolutely hate bread that isn't freshly baked.

I also hate marzipan.

Robusto

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Ah, you had me at Ron Carter.

Cerberus

I think you would call that stuff marzipan, although in Dutch we distinguish it from marzipan. It's worse than marzipan, actually.

Robusto

@Mitch You're only partly sunny. Not truly sunny.

Mitch

4:17 AM

Whoa...too close. Back off man!

user4215

thanks

Mitch

@Cerberus so then you would hate what I've had just as much as me. Now tiramisu is usually pretty good.

Cerberus

Indeed, I would.

I don't like tiramisu either, because of the coffee/moca thing.

And the alcohol thing.

I don't like alcohol with sweets.

Only with water-based ice.

Robusto

I don't like alcohol with sweat.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Eww.

Robusto

4:21 AM

Sorry. It was just lying there and I picked it up.

user4215

Hey, are you guys having a nosh-up on Christmas?

Mitch

4:50 AM

@Cerberus ha ha, yes exactly. The coffee thing is OK (somehow I think that is essential) but the alcohol I can do without.

@user4215 We might have Chinese, if that's what you mean.

user4215

what do you mean?

Mitch

ha ha, the question is what do you mean!

What's your first language?

and where did you hear 'nosh-up' from?

(those are not exactly related questions)

user4215

nosh up means a large meal

according to OED

Anonymous

@Mitch I don't think the term exists in American English, but there are a few results in BNC that make me think it might see use in British English

Anonymous

I've never heard it before

user4215

4:56 AM

I see.

Now I see a huge divide between BriE and AmeriE

maybe Dickens used it

Mitch

5:08 AM

@user4215 'nosh' is from yiddish and so 'nosh-up' is probably very regional (NY/New Jersey area/Jewish). I've never heard 'nosh up' used that way before. Just 'to have a nosh' is to have a snack. That's fairly common.

The OED is the best dictionary around. ever. but things slip in that are not specified well enough.

user4215

I see

thanks for the heads-up

but where can I get the whole dictionary in a paper-edition?

Jason Marsh

6:21 AM

Hey, if you were the dean of my school who is responsible for giving out leaves, would gladly grant me with 1 extra leave of absence for me to attain some certifications after I get discharged from military? (I've already asked for 4 semester leaves, 2 years long)

Jason Marsh

7:45 AM

kidneykidney.com

this sounds promising

Jez

9:08 AM

morning.

working on Christmas eve. sighh.

Jez

9:25 AM

@JasperLoy how are you?

Jasper Loy

@user4215 It comes in 20 volumes, so don't buy it. It always comes in a single volume but you need a magnifying glass to read it, so also don't buy it. Lots of smaller dictionaries will do. For example, just get Oxford Dictionary of English (BrE) or New Oxford American Dictionary (AmE) which is the largest single volume dictionary produced by Oxford.

@Jez So so. I am at home, as usual.

Jez

ah nice

i so wanted to lie in bed this morning!

Jasper Loy

Well, you get to lie in bed tonight.

Jez

it'll be at mum's house though. not quite so peaceful

Jasper Loy

It's good to be with mum. My mum is the only relative I have.

I am now drinking coffee.

Jez

9:32 AM

earl grey tea

Jasper Loy

It's usually had without milk, right?

Jez

maybe, but i have it with milk :-)

Jasper Loy

Ah. I think it's good either way.

Jez

9:51 AM

soooooo

what time is it there @JasperLoy

Jasper Loy

@Jez It's 5.51 pm. My mum will be buying dinner back later.

Jez

buying dinner back?

did she sell it?

Jasper Loy

Not funny, lol.

Jez

well what did u mean

Jasper Loy

Back home, of course.

Jez

10:02 AM

you mean bringing back home?

Jasper Loy

Well, maybe my English is nonstandard, I don't know.

Yes.

Jez

ok

i wonder how ill fretting over one's health can make one.

can one literally worry oneself to death?

Jasper Loy

Not literally, but close to it.

Jez

how do you mean close?

Jasper Loy

Well, anxiety can completely incapacitate a person to the point he cannot function in daily life.

Jez

10:06 AM

mmm

but im talking about purely physical effects

Jasper Loy

Well, physically, worrying will just cause fatigue.

Jason Marsh

guys, I'm watching Hobbit 3 soon

I'm excited as hell =)...

Jez

heh

Jason Marsh

I've read Hobbit over 6 times because I love its story

Jez

my mum says they shouldn't have made a trilogy outta that

Jason Marsh

10:15 AM

Well, Samuel Jackson (the producer guy) is going to make a trilogy of Simarlion too.

Jez

havent heard of it

Matt Эллен

@JasonMarsh Peter Jackson.

Samuel Jackson is not him

they have similar beards, but different career trajectories

RegDwigнt

Grrr. Proggers are 63 hats ahead. Used to be hundreds behind.

We're only 9th now.

Jason Marsh

10:31 AM

OH

sorry, they look completely different.

Jasper Loy

Sorry, but Samuel Jackson and Peter Jackson are completely different people.

Jez

what's a good light lunch to have if you have indigestion?

Jason Marsh

Yeah, the guy at the below section is the one-eyed sneaky guy in Avengers right?

I'd recommend protein juice.

Jez

don't think i have any of that. oh i know, soup and bread

Jasper Loy

@Jez Have some salad.

Jason Marsh

10:42 AM

Yeah, don't forget to sprinkle some pepper in your lovely soup. It's Jesus's birthday tomorrow.

Jez

@JasperLoy that doesnt digest well

Jasper Loy

@Jez Hmm, OK. Some chicken soup then.

Jez

i have tomato and basil soup

Jason Marsh

Nah, go for some Kimchi soup.

It's definitely lighter than chicken.

Jasper Loy

Kimchi will upset his stomach. It's too hot.

Jason Marsh

10:45 AM

Ah, nvm then.

Jez

@JasonMarsh are those two sentences related?

Jason Marsh

They are interconnected, although they are seperated by dots and a new-line.

Why do US musicians write songs about US military? It's too patriotic to listen to.

Jez

how are they connected?

Jason Marsh

They are connected unofficially. I don't know, I'm a rapper so I'd say they are connected.

►

Like this

If you are about to kill someone's father, does the following quote make sense?
"I'm going to de-father you. HaHa..."

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…