English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2014-11-04 (page 1 of 2)

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12:00 AM

Wait, you aren’t taking about the Underground, but rather about trains to get you in and out of London itself, right?

Yes. South coast to London. Sixty-five miles. Ninety minutes.

And First Class, because it's the only way to guarantee a seat.

That’s a long commute.

But at least you don’t have to drive.

I have driven once or twice, when work is on the way to somewhere else at the weekend. But only because there's a company car park and it's outside the Congestion Charge zone.

It takes 2.5 or 3 hours to drive.

Murder.

Did you know cousiness was once a word?

> C. 1350 Will. Palerne 625 ― Þer-for, curteise cosynes, for loue of crist in heuene, Kiþe nouȝ þi kindenes.
1382 Wyclif Luke i. 36 ― Loo! Elizabeth, thi cosyness, and sche hath conceyued a sone in hir elde.
C. 1470 Henry Wallace x. 1156 ― His wiff was Eduuardis ner cusing [v.r. Eduuardis cousignes].
1575 Morton Proclam. (Reg. Privy Council Scot. II. 459) ― Betwix our souverane Lord and his dearest sister and cousignace the Queene of England.
1858 People’s Paper 28 Aug. 4/4 ― The wife of one and the cousiness of another.

@tchrist I certainly felt like doing that.

12:04 AM

I once turned around in frustration after getting about 10 miles in 2 hours.

@tchrist No. But I suppose that went the way of laziness, as an answer suggested.

Texted my boss. Said it was better that way for everyone. :)

I've had to do that when the trains fail in the middle of nowhere.

Laziness isn’t a word any longer? :)

Nah. Too long.

There must be scope for a spoof question about laziner, though. I'll have to find a candidate word.

12:09 AM

Lazing.

I need an -ess/-er pair where the -ess can be female.

I know.

Hm, I think I can solve this with a regex.

> adulterer, adulteress
adventurer, adventuress
bearer, bearess
beggarer, beggaress
bonzer, bonzess
bowler, bowless
broiderer, broideress
burger, burgess
bustler, bustless
butcherer, butcheress
cabler, cabless
carer, caress
caterer, cateress
cellarer, cellaress
chastener, chasteness
citer, citess
cockler, cockless
confer, confess
conjurer, conjuress
controller, controlless
counter, countess
cover, covess
curdler, curdless
deaner, deaness
decipherer, decipheress
deliverer, deliveress
densener, denseness

All from the OED.

chastener/chasteness seems a good pair :)

Ripener, ripeness.

There's even a bit of Sir Philip Sydney's poetry exhibiting S&M:

> Where Love is chasteness, pain doth learn delight, And humbleness grows on with majesty

12:22 AM

Chastener sounds like something her lord father might do.

I don’t suppose you can Coventry people there — you know, like the way you Bath them? :)

You’d think the town would have been burned for its witches.

You can send people to Coventry.

Speaking of which, not that I want to deliberately ignore anyone here: but I'm going to bed.

2 hours later…

2:11 AM

@AndrewLeach Yup. That’s why I asked. :)

user116848

It looks like everyone has left the chat room.

user116848

Very few of us here.

4:01 AM

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word pls

7 hours later…

11:21 AM

> woman: the female of man; see homo

— Encyclopædia Britannica

Um what?

They should never have sold Britannia to the Americans...

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus are you the female of man?

I...don't think so?

Does my name contain "woman"?

@Cerberus "Callifornia: a large country of the West Indies; unknown whether it is an island or a peninsula".

Ibidem.

I see.

11:25 AM

Oh and I have an even better one.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus it contains "us"... so it contains everyone!

Surely the E.B. isn't that old?

@MattЭллен Oo I am so inclusive!

Matt Эллен

the old one is

I win!

Matt Эллен

yay!

11:25 AM

Let me look up Encyclopaedia Britannica on Wikipaedia.

The dwarves get captured, searched and locked up by Legolas (not in the book) and a she-elf (not in any of the books). One of the dwarves then says to the she-elf, "you forgot to check my pants; perhaps there's something in there for you".

> It was first published between 1768 and 1771 in Edinburgh, Scotland as three volumes.

I'm sure they knew that California was not an island by then.

The quotes are from the 1768 edition.

Except the last one, that one's from The Hobbit part 2.

Matt Эллен

which is more historically accurate?

11:39 AM

> The letter 'K' gets a grand total of four pages and Kensington is described as 'A pleasant village…two miles west of London.'

I think that settles the case.

Hobbit says no such thing, so it is less accurate.

Matt Эллен

the bookcase

@RegDwigнt Peter Jackson will be grossly disappointed

I don't think he will.

He lives in some lalaworld of his own where no criticism or even opinion can reach him.

Matt Эллен

no doubt behind a huge wall of money

The paywall.

Of Mordor.

Matt Эллен

Mordough

11:55 AM

Mord'oh!

Matt Эллен

replacing Sauron with Homer Simpson...

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Rule 32 section 2. If you can think of it, there's pics of it.

Matt Эллен

lol. excellent

so would Bart be Frodo?

with milhouse as Sam

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You really are too late to that party.

Matt Эллен

12:10 PM

I shoulda guest

0

Q: What do you call a sick person who is lying in bed?

Some conditions require that a person lie in bed all the time until recovered. Is there a name for such conditions or people experiencing them at the moment? For example, I am currently <bed sick> and can't help you with your homework. I tried looking for bed sick but hit a dead end.

single-word-requests phrase-requests

sounds like it needs a punchline

"Anything you like, they can't hear you"

He said sick, not dead.

Matt Эллен

I haven't come up with a good pun, yet

That is a good answer.

"What do you call a sick person?' — "I haven't come up with a good pun yet."

Matt Эллен

:D

"What do you call a person who's sick of single-word-requests?"

Matt Эллен

12:17 PM

Usually by their first name

You have a question like "What do you call a person who hauls trash for a living?" and the answer is obviously garbageman (AmE, fill in your own BrE equivalent here: _____________), but the answers will be fairly littered with arcane offerings like "waste management consultant" or "levitateur" or some Latin POS nobody's ever even heard of.

Q. What do you call a person who eats shoots and leaves? A. Sad panda.

@Robusto "a regular, until they happen to answer one themselves".

Too true.

And before anyone starts complaining, it is one word in German.

OK, hit me. What is the proper German word for that?

Einzelne . . . er . . .

12:21 PM

Einregularundblinkenlichtstuckenmeier.

Come on, it's in every dictionary.

Go on, pull the other one. It's got bells on it.

I am more into whistles.

Matt Эллен

@Robusto works in Google translate (with a space after Ein)

I see. We're not going to play nice this morning, eh?

Jingle whistles all the way.

12:23 PM

@MattЭллен I tend to place Google Translate—how should I say?—beneath a pedestal.

Matt Эллен

:D

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Sounds legit.

Do note how German apparently defaults to female. Unlike the stupid English with a man in every word.

Matt Эллен

craftsladyship

Ladied spaceflight.

Matt Эллен

huladies

12:26 PM

That is sexist. "Lad" is a bloke.

And person is not a perdaughter.

Matt Эллен

damn. we're doomed to be sexist forever

And daughter end in -er which is male. Should be daughtesse or daughtin.

Matt Эллен

manchester -> peoplechester

Chest is sexist.

And once again "er" means "he".

What monster are you creating, Frankenstein?

Frankenstein was created by an Englishwoman. Don't blame her.

@MattЭллен There are all kinds of chesters — Winchester, Manchester, Chichester — but there is only one Chester, the Ur-Chester from which all others are derived.

12:34 PM

AKA Roh-Chester.

I'd rather man the ladyparts than the ramparts.

And so he went and dissed St. Louis just like that. Why? Why?

They didn't make the World Series this year. Why else?

But they invented painting helmets.

12:51 PM

@RegDwigнt Was ist denn ein Malenhelm?

Das ist so ein Ding mit so Dings dran und so.

Und so weiter.

Matt Эллен

Rarely used in Britain. We might say 'randy' but then that's a boy's name in America! — WS2 4 hours ago

WS2 does not speak for all of us.

Nah, Randy is not an established name. It's totally new, man.

He loves L.A.! Literally!

Matt Эллен

1:00 PM

that might cause trouble in paradise

He is the one who knocks.

At the poker table, anyway.

And by knock I don't mean check. More like check raise.

Does anyone else find that they don't downvote as readily when their rep is at an even number?

I hate to spoil the symmetry.

Matt Эллен

I have not noticed that. I probably have held off down voting in the past because I was at a multiple of ten

now I'm a mod I hand out downvotes like they're candy

although, still not as many as Reg

0

A: What is someone called who makes and sells sandwiches?

I love coining new terms! paninist sammy hero wicher (pronounced "witcher") submariner sandman dagwood earl (you know .. like the earl of Sandwich)

i love doing that too!!!!

Matt Эллен

See! like candy

As to the death competitors though, for your sake, I wish you'd stop.

Matt Эллен

1:11 PM

death competitors?

to-the-death competitors.

Read what I mean, not what I write.

Matt Эллен

are there many here?

@Mitch I'll do that if you write what you mean

Aren't we all?

I see what you mean

Matt Эллен

I'm not a to-the-death competitor

You obviously mean that you are, despite what you wrote.

To your family

So, my condolences.

Augh!!! The internet self tweeted me!!!

1:15 PM

@MattЭллен You still have much to learn, Grasshopper. When you can snatch the waiting downvote from my palm, you may leave us.

I lose!!

spreads out plastic sheet

places blade against abdomen

Oh forget it. It'll be such a mess to clean up.

Matt Эллен

@tchrist maybe one day

@Mitch the internet self tweeted you? what does that mean?

How about snatching the waiting ice cream cone from the unsuspecting toddler? I can do that with only minimal planning.

Matt Эллен

yeah, toddlers can't run very fast

programmers are generally overpriced, late and drunk — Joe Blow 6 hours ago

1:18 PM

Exactly

Matt Эллен

Joe Blow is clearly a troll.

About the ice cream and toddlers

Clearly unstable

Like a Jenga tower near the end

Or after the end

Matt Эллен

played while parachuting

A train wreck off the tower of Pisa

Hi guys. Is it in order to raise abuse of moderator powers? here?

1:22 PM

@MattЭллен So it's "I'm all right, Jack" and pull up the ladder, is it?

Matt Эллен

@Robusto yes! no candy for you!

@FumbleFingers Hmm, I dunno. I kind of agree with @medica on this one, though. Much as I normally give deference to Yoichi.

Matt Эллен

@FumbleFingers I saw the quesiton when it was first posted. I still don't know what to do.

It makes me sad.

それは難しいですね。(I added this as a comment. Maybe it will "dutch-Uncle" Yoichi a little bit.

1:27 PM

It's NOT being silly man - I really meant it. (A) it simply ignores the question (B) it's just a political statement against that socio-political movement. I love Reg, brother, but it's a fact. A well-known typical problem on these sites is person asks question Q, and people respond "oh, you don't want to do that!" Look at it this way dude: imagine the OP ws heavily prefaced: "LET'S ALL AGREE THAT antisex language is silly, OK? LET'S ALL AGREE TO THAT. GIVEN THAT, here's a question..." You with me, my main man?? — Joe Blow 5 hours ago

I think it would be best to expunge the ELU meta question and replace it with an anonymised one on SO.meta.meta

It's ridiculous to claim the ELU question isn't a "witchhunt", since there's only one instance of an "offender"

@FumbleFingers I think it's unfortunate, and given the OP's penchant for drama I can see how you might say that, but I'm hard pressed to see how it might not be perceived as a witch hunt in either direction. So maybe your suggestion is a good one.

@Robusto I don't know or care whether Yoichi acted "correctly", but I think it's pretty much a racing cert even if he is "guilty", from his point of view the punishment has already substantially outweighed the crime.

See above.

We didn't (or at least, I didn't) elect Yoichi because I thought he'd be a great mod. I did it to accord him an "honour", and I wish I hadn't now. Not because I'm disappointed in anything he's done, but because of the way the site seems to have turned against him.

1:35 PM

Is there more evidence of the "turning away" than just this incident and meta post?

Matt Эллен

not to my knowledge

I don't recall the details, but I saw some stuff in chat where medica was remonstrating about Yoichi reopening an earlier post. And the evidence that bothers me now is simply the existence of, and support for, the meta question.

Well, you can't really unring this bell, since he's a mod. He can see everything that's been done.

My position is simply that I don't think the occasional quirk/mistake/whatever justifies either limiting mod's powers, or a formal statement of "best practice". But if people want to discuss that issue at all, it should be site-wide on meta.meta, and should not publicly parade the only known example of questionable behaviour on one sub-site.

That may be. But what is your proposed remedy at this point in the game?

1:43 PM

...so I was wondering whether it might be worth posting an answer to that effect on the existing question. And desperately hoping that it might be the runaway top-voted, so we could ask the mods to remove it and post a more general one on meta.meta instead.

@FumbleFingers Go ahead. I'll flip the up arrow on it.

hi @Mitch :D

...if, for example, users like you, me, and tchrist go for it, we may be able to salvage the situation in a reasonably seemly way. Yoichi needn't be publicly humiliated any more than he has been already, and medica will just have to roll with it.

@Robusto My proposed remedy is that mods shouldn't be able to vote to reopen their own items. Actually should anyboy?

Anyway, Yoichi has opened all his closed questions since he has been a mod.

@Mitch That isn’t a remedy.

1:46 PM

@Mitch not just anyboy, iceboy

And he was admonished about it the first time.

@Mitch But that issue, as @FumbleFingers says, should be argued in a different venue.

@Mitch You're welcome to take that position, but does the debate over whether to limit mods' powers need to name names?

@Robusto oh. Sure.

But it started here. so I'm talking about it here.

So you're willing to accept the world as it is? Fine.

1:48 PM

@FumbleFingers ?? It's about particular instances, with repeated behavior, so yes, I think names are relevant.

and the wisdom to know the difference

@Robusto I'm confused about where this is all going.

@Mitch I just tried to introduce a bit of levity. Perhaps it was a bit dry for chat.

Oops. stackexchange.com/questions?tab=hot

googling levity

Matt Эллен

1:50 PM

@tchrist oops?

@tchrist Looks like a .Net error.

@Mitch on that we must disagree. If names are relevant, you're talking about a witchhunt for "transgressors"./ The reality is this is just a question of whether a rule change needs to be contemplated, not what to do about one person's behaviour

Matt Эллен

oh! some people are getting those, yeah

@MattЭллен Error–error.

Matt Эллен

it's not affecting everyone

1:52 PM

@FumbleFingers I don't know where this witchhunt thing came from. One person did something that seems wrong. There's no hunting. The evidence is right there. (and it has been repeated so possibly behavior is an issue)

Matt Эллен

I'm inclined to agree with J.R.

@Mitch I can't type fast enough to keep up in chat, but it's obvious to me there's a difference between discussing a specific case of "someone (named) doing wrong" and talking about rule changes or guidance to prevent such wrongs occuring in the first place

:O Who shot JR?

@FumbleFingers Stat rosa pristina nomine; nomina nuda tenemus.

Matt Эллен

you did. all he did was write about fishing

but you had to be a big shot

1:57 PM

-_-

Matt Эллен

JR hartely, right? that's who we're talking about?

Ewing

@MattЭллен That would be the jack-in-office view. :^P

:D

@Robusto I’m rather displeased with the imagery that conjures.

1:58 PM

@tchrist I'd like to say that's all Greek to me, but I guess even I can see it's actually Latin. Google Translate tells me it means stat pink pristine appointments nomination naked tenemus, so I'm none the wiser there. Enlighten, pls?

Humm, hello guys

Matt Эллен

J. R. Hartley is the name of a fictional character in a popular British advertisement promoting the Yellow Pages which was first shown in 1983. The advertisement shows an elderly man (actor Norman Lumsden) asking in several second-hand bookshops for "Fly Fishing by J. R. Hartley". Every attempt fails, and the next scene shows him at home looking dejected. His daughter, sympathising, hands him the Yellow Pages (the UK's telephone directory for local businesses); in the next scene he looks delighted as his end of a telephone conversation reveals that a shop has a copy of the book. He asks them to...

Do you think there something inherently ugly with the word order if I say "nearest available point" vs "nearest point available"?

I leave for five seconds and someone grabs my wikipedia one-box. Fine.

@tchrist I'm speaking to a Brit there. If I'd wanted to conjure up for him the view you suggest, I'd have used wank instead of jack.

Matt Эллен

I'm just imagining a jack-in-the-box as a moderator

2:01 PM

@FumbleFingers Peel away the onion.

I have infinite small doubts in English and I don't know which generalize to merit a proper question on the site. Please don't take my small questions as wanting to avoid posting, but more as a consultation of whether it should be :P. In some SE chats people take these questions really not-well

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@Rojo I say "nearest available point"

Matt Эллен

who would vote homer in as moderator?

me

2:02 PM

I think we did that already.

Matt Эллен

@Rojo I find nothing ugly about either

@IceBoy Great

Matt Эллен

@Robusto something was said... not good

@MattЭллен thx

The nearest point available is a reduced adjective clause via whiz-deletion. The postfix adjective can branch to the right further: You must cast it from the nearest point available to you.

2:04 PM

user image

Matt Эллен

that has the word "sis" in it. clearly sexist

@MattЭллен Yes, but it's inverted because con- plays it the other way round.

Matt Эллен

so that's what people mean by "con job"

A confidence trick (synonyms include confidence scheme, scam and stratagem) is an attempt to defraud a person or group after first gaining their confidence, used in the classical sense of trust. Confidence tricks exploit characteristics of the human psyche such as dishonesty, honesty, vanity, compassion, credulity, irresponsibility, naïveté and greed.

@tchrist haha...now that I know what it means, I still don't know what -you- mean. a rose by any other name? words are empty shells? but what is the metaphor then? what corresponds to what?

2:21 PM

@Mitch The thing and the name are different.

@tchrist OK, got it. Now how does that apply to the current circumstance?

1

Q: Stingy, miserly and frugal: what is the difference in usage?

Could you please provide an example sentence for each adjective so that to show a situation when only one of the adjectives may be used while the others may not? The thing that confuses me most is that the Longman dictionary of contemporary english defines these words like so: First, it says so...

synonyms learning

Very responsible OP. It started off as help-vampire, but edited extensively and responsibly. So I'm advertising here for good answers. (I voted to close initially, but I want to make sure that ti gets answered in case others come in and vote to close too now).

@Robusto Are you up for being the first wave of cavalry riding to the rescue, to save ELU and Yoichi's reputation from further self-inflicted damage?

@FumbleFingers So shall it be written, so shall it be up-voted.

@Robusto I don't have your power with words (or ability to be diplomatic when you want to be). Please alter my text as much as seems appropriate, if I haven't phrased my closevote supporting "answer" as well as I should have.

Looks fine as it stands. It's your response; I wouldn't presume to change it.

2:35 PM

one, two, three, four... four thousand, nine hundred and ninety nine, five thousand: would you call those numbers or numerals?

It is entertaining, though also a tad confusing, to see this answer exhibit the very things it is railing against: presumptuousness, absurdity, and failure to answer the question. — RegDwigнt ♦ 16 secs ago

I only just discovered that meta post. I didn't even know this had become such a big thing.

People are crazy.

There was even an entire week-end in-between and this thing still hasn't died a thousand deaths?

Matt Эллен

@RegDwigнt yup

20 upvotes I could have handled; 40, okay. But it's about to become my most upvoted answer ever, and I don't want it to pollute my personal charts forevermore.

What one is that?

The thing is, it's actually not too popular a question. It hasn't even got 10k views after all this time. Have they changed the thresholds?

@Robusto the "only men can exhibit craftsmanship" one.

2:40 PM

@Mitch I did as you requested.

And the fallout.

@RegDwigнt Oh. Wow, you did pull the brass ring on that one, didn't you just?

@Robusto yeah WTF dude.

And without even my help, since I didn't see it before. And now I'm too embarrassed for you to pull the lever on it.

Thank you.

That makes two.

Anyway. Goes to show just how obsessed people are with the meaninglessest things.

2:43 PM

@RegDwigнt Still, I have to point out that you are merely "a seemingly reputable member of this community" and not an actually reputable one, at least according to quant.

@Robusto which coincidentally was exactly the reason why I posted this answer. Now I have all the reps.

Matt Эллен

you're such a hoarder

Yes. You can have none.

I want to be reputable.

Matt Эллен

:cries:

remains disreputable

Oct 30 at 21:15, by RegDwigнt

No, really. This is about reps.

Oct 30 at 21:15, by RegDwigнt

I can argue any point at all with the same confidence, gusto and skill.

This was back when it was sitting at what, 15 upvotes?

Matt Эллен

2:45 PM

:D

Now I finally made people make up for the last fifty answers of mine that got like 1.3 votes on average.

Feb 16 '11 at 13:30, by RegDwight

But I think that Ex-user is spot on anyhow: it all evens out in the end. You take your time to compose a thorough answer, you get 2 upvotes. You post a half-assed joke, you get 20. In the end, you still have 22 upvotes, whether you would prefer them to be the other way round or not.

So I can retire for another six months or so.

Matt Эллен

rest your legöy head

@MattЭллен What is that, the opposite of a French gentile?

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Pictured in some order: lego, head, gentile, rest.

Matt Эллен

@Robusto maybe...

Matt Эллен

3:30 PM

@user4550 If you answer questions about grammaticality correctly then you should feel confident about your own ability to write gramatically.

Use this SEDE query to find out whether your answers are punching above their weight — or below it.

Sort by PunchCost descending to see how much effort you’ve wasted.

Oh, I remember a similar query. I think Mmyers was always in the lead.

Feb 1 '11 at 12:02, by RegDwight

ShreevatsaR leads by average answer score; Robusto leads by average rep per day; Dusty is the least downvoted; mmyers needs the least keystrokes per rep point; nohat is leading by passive rep; etc.

"Keystrokes per rep point". I think it was actually named that.

Matt Эллен

@tchrist what does punchcost mean?

"I've had just about all I can put up with of your insults." Does this mean, "I am fed up with your insults!"?

Not sure if they are fed up, but they can't handle more. Perhaps one more and that's it.

"Just about" is not very specific.

3:44 PM

just about is like almost rigth?

Perhaps they are willing to and capable of handling 42.5.

so a bit qualified?

"Just about" is like "pretty much".

yeah..so I am fed up, prety much?

Pretty much so.

3:46 PM

@MattЭллен Yeah, I might try.

thanks

@tchrist so, um, but what is the threshold? Do I punch above the weight at 13 or at 1300?

I'm not quite sure how to read the results. Or how they are sorted.

(Actually, no, they are sorted by length. But what I'm saying is they should be sorted by punch, no? Or cost?)

Oh. You go on to say "sort by PunchCost descending". Stupid me.

... but I seem unable to sort by two columns (except by rewriting the query, of course).

Matt Эллен

I think punchcost got removed. it used to be a column

Oh.

And shouldn't it be Punch / Cost, anyway?

Matt Эллен

iunoh

So anyway. I wrote some shit, and someone voted. That's what I take from this.

Matt Эллен

3:53 PM

thems the facts

Good. At last there's a query for actual facts!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

A word or phrase for 'Holy grail' (a goal impossible to achieve),2388, 21, 108, 52

Is “the girls are want to gossip” correct?,367, 122,2,45

Okay I unlearned SQL. I can't get it to sort by Punch/Cost.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So my short answer with 122 votes punches 45, but the longer answer with 21 votes punches 52?

It keeps saying "Invalid column name 'Punch'. Invalid column name 'Cost'." no matter what I try.

Oh wait. I'm messing with ORDER BY. I should be writing a separate SORT BY instead.

DUH.

Matt Эллен

3:57 PM

I would think my highest "punch" would be 435 characters for 71 votes, but the highest punch is 987 characters for 43 votes

Wait, SORT BY no worky-worky. Okay I'm officially dumb.

@RegDwigнt So how far are you from Legendary at this point?

What I'm misremembering was "GROUP BY" vs "ORDER BY", not "ORDER BY" vs "SORT BY".

@Robusto so far that I haven't even checked in a year, and probably won't check in another.

I don't think I'm even halfway there by now.

Same for the gold tag badges.

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Nov '144

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