English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Matt Эллен

12:14 AM

@Robusto I'd say that it's more liberal than our centre. I'd say our centre is in Hertfordshire

tchrist

12:40 AM

Midlands

Robusto

1:25 AM

@terdon: Your evidences NGram is flawed because citations for evidences may refer to third-person singular form of the verb, and are much more likely to do refer to that than to any plural form of the noun.

Cerberus

2:05 AM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 What's the hard part?

Ice Boy

3:55 AM

Trick or treat :D

tchrist

As @guifa is aware, the word were meant “man” in the lost languages of the North that is forgotten. It could also mean “husband” the way we today use it in “man and wife”. See Beowulf. It is cognate to Latin vir for “man” — whence virile. More recently than Beowulf and Commentarii de Bello Gallico was this evocative line written: “Tell me what you want done, and I will try it, if I have to walk from here to the East of East and fight the wild Were-worms in the Last Desert.” — tchrist 2 hours ago

@IceBoy Still sounds like a pick-up line to me. :)

Ice Boy

Good old "Tricksie"...

tchrist

And Flopsie and Mopsie and — oh, wrong hollyday.

Ice Boy

It's all good :-)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus The hard part is generalizing the prototype into a useful product. It's one thing to demonstrate that you can plug modules into a phone. Computers are already pretty modular internally. It's another thing to demonstrate that you'll be able to build cheap, reliable modules that are useful and actually create a viable ecosystem for this phone. The industry is littered with failures in this regard and even in the PC world has shifted toward less modularity rather than more.

And there are specific challenges in the Arm space that don't exist in the Intel space. Because Arm was never intended for modular systems.

tchrist

4:07 AM

watches his brain grasp at the space-arm extending from the space-station orbiting the earth — and miss

Hahaha!

I found a typo in the OED!

> 1630 R. Johnson’s Kindg. & Commw. 133 ― The Merchant liveth obscurely, the Tradesman penuriously, and the Craftsman in drudgerie.

Can you spot it?

tchrist

4:55 AM

Between 1601 and 1630, merchant Robert Johnson of Virginia Company fame (and much more) published seven English editions of a book called Relations, of the most famous Kingdomes and Commonwealths thorough the World: Discoursing of their Scituations, Religions, Languages, Manners, Customes, Strengths, Greatnesse, and Policies.

The OED’s typo is that they wrote "Kindg." for the abbreviation when it should instead have been "Kingd." — they transposed the "gd" into "dg".

This made it harder to track down the original source than it should have been. :(

These were supposedly "translations" of Giovanni Botero Benese’s Relationi Universali, but apparently Johnson took a free hand to the translation and introduced much of his own politics in the growing Anglo–Spanish rivalry. See the paper “Johnson’s Relations: Visions of Global Order, 1601-1630”, by Joanne Paul and Kurosh Meshka.

All this because I was investigating tradesman versus craftsman.

Those two words were originally in some sort of opposition; different things.

However, when they were different, a tradesman was engaged in trade, a craftsman in craft. So I do not understand why Johnson wrote of merchants being different from tradesmen, given that he clearly thought them different from craftsmen.

And all these were different from simple laborers.

> tradesman /ˈtreɪdzmən/. Pl. -men.
Etymology: f. trade’s, gen. case of trade + man sb.1
1. One who is skilled in and follows one of the industrial arts; an artificer, an artisan, a craftsman. Now Sc., local (esp. rural) English, and Austral.
2. a. One who is engaged in trade or the sale of commodities; esp. a shopkeeper.

Compare:

> craftsman /ˈkrɑːftsmən/, /-æ-/.
Forms: 4–6 craftes, craftis man, (4 craftus, craftise man, 5 craftiesman), 5–6 craftis-, craftys-, craftesman, 6–7 craftes-, crafts-man, 6– craftsman.
Etymology: Orig. two words in syntactical relation: cf. tradesman.
1. A man who practices a handicraft; an artificer, artisan.
2. transf. and fig. † a. Maker, artificer, inventor, contriver. Obs. b. = artist c. A private soldier in the Corps of Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers.

The also have

> tradesmen’s entrance (or door): a minor or side entrance to a property for use by tradesmen or workmen.

A cobbler is a craftsman, no?

Likewise, a tailor.

And yet, I think bricklayers are thought of as tradesmen. I’m not sure.

I never thought of a tradesman as a shopkeep.

If you are “in the trades”, what does that mean?

The have both craftsmanship and tradesmanship.

> ˈtradesmanship, the quality or calling of a tradesman; transf. tradesmen collectively. Also attrib.

1817 Bentham Parl. Reform (1818) 52 ― Say whether Tradesmanship honesty··is not worth all such other honesties put together.
1859 Sat. Rev. 10 Dec. 702/1 ― Tradesmanship in all its proprieties may stand aghast at the revelations of the inner life of a Strand shopkeeper’s family.

Whereas craftsmanship is a. “The performance or occupation of a craftsman; skill in clever or artistic work; skilled workmanship.” or b. “more generally: Exercise of craft or art.”

So the crafts seem to involve artisanry, but the trades seem not to.

And yet the first sense of tradesman is “an artificer, an artisan, a craftsman.”

So, like, huh?????

> There were several types of guilds, including the two main categories of merchant guilds and craft guilds[3] but also the frith guild and religious guild.[4]

Jerson Zuleta

5:13 AM

Well.

tchrist

> The continental system of guilds and merchants arrived in England after the Norman Conquest, with incorporated societies of merchants in each town or city holding exclusive rights of doing business there.

> Trade guilds arose in the 14th century as craftsmen united to protect their common interest.

The early egalitarian communities called "guilds" (for the gold deposited in their common funds) were denounced by Catholic clergy for their "conjurations"—the binding oaths sworn among artisans to support one another in adversity and back one another in feuds or in business ventur

Guild

A guild /ɡɪld/ is an association of artisans or merchants who control the practice of their craft in a particular town. The earliest types of guild were formed as confraternities of tradesmen. They were organized in a manner something between a professional association, trade union, a cartel, and a secret society. They often depended on grants of letters patent by a monarch or other authority to enforce the flow of trade to their self-employed members, and to retain ownership of tools and the supply of materials. A lasting legacy of traditional guilds are the guildhalls constructed and used as...

I’m thinking these terms are not so separate as one might wish. I doubt whether I can disentangle them.

Jerson Zuleta

May I ask who are you talking to?

tchrist

You just did.

I am talking to the future.

Jerson Zuleta

That'd imply the future is in the present.

tchrist

I am working through my thoughts as if I had an interlocutor to bounce my ideas off. It is often better than way.

Plus the room’s denizens will often upon their reawakening scan the log of what transpired while they slumbered.

Jerson Zuleta

5:18 AM

Oh alright. Then I won't interrupt.

tchrist

And some of them might have thoughts of their own in relation to this.

You aren’t interrupting.

I’ve run my course. I have concluded that I do not understand what difference there may be between tradesmen and craftsmen. I was hoping I would, but I do not.

Jerson Zuleta

You remind me of some roleplayers.

Using words & words.

tchrist

We all have our rôles to play.

To strut and fret our hour upon the stage.

Jerson Zuleta

@tchrist Not sure but maybe the kind of stuff they build?

tchrist

Yes, that is what I was thinking, that craftsman was the more skilled term. But I do not know. Regarding typographic convention, I more commonly use italics for the use–mention distinction than I do for emphasis.

Jerson Zuleta

5:23 AM

Would you use bold, then?

tchrist

I mislike bold.

Jerson Zuleta

Or both?

Why?

It's pretty.

tchrist

I am just saying that I was not saying these out of emphasis, but as mentions.

Because bold is ugly.

Jerson Zuleta

b o l d

tchrist

It is offensive to the eye and page, for its color is wrong.

Jerson Zuleta

5:24 AM

I don't know.

tchrist

It has very, very, very few legitimate typographic uses.

Jerson Zuleta

Maybe it's the chat's background what's ugly.

tchrist

It makes the page too heavy, a burden to the eye. It makes it look like a ransom note.

Jerson Zuleta

Do excuse me for a bit, I'm going to play & I'll be back in around 40 min.

tchrist

It is, or can be, useful for certain types of display setting of type, such as headlines.

But on a normal page, it hurts.

Jerson Zuleta

5:54 AM

Why?

I like it.

Whether it's an appropriate use or not, it looks good.

Though they say black combines with any other colour, this background makes me doubt that.

tchrist

𝔹𝕖𝕔𝕒𝕦𝕤𝕖 𝚠𝚑𝚎𝚗 𝘆𝗼𝘂 𝕣𝕒𝕟𝕕𝕠𝕞𝕝𝕪 𝙢𝙪𝙩𝙞𝙡𝙖𝙩𝙚 𝔱𝔥𝔢 𝚠𝚎𝚒𝚐𝚑𝚝𝚒𝚗𝚐 𝗈𝖿 𝙖 𝖕𝖆𝖌𝖊, 𝗶𝘁𝘀 𝙤𝙫𝙚𝙧𝙖𝙡𝙡 𝐜𝐨𝐥𝐨𝐫 — 𝖜𝖍𝖎𝖈𝖍 𝑖𝑠 𝒂 𝔱𝔢𝔯𝔪 𝒐𝒇 𝒂𝒓𝒕 𝗶𝗻 𝘵𝘺𝘱𝘰𝘨𝘳𝘢𝘱𝘩𝘪𝘤 𝖈𝖎𝖗𝖈𝖑𝖊𝖘 — 𝒾𝓈 𝘴𝘦𝘳𝘪𝘰𝘶𝘴𝘭𝘺 𝙝𝙖𝙧𝙢𝙚𝙙 𝘣𝘺 𝚝𝚑𝚊𝚝 𝔰𝔬𝔯𝔱 𝖔𝖋 𝚝𝚑𝚒𝚗𝚐. 𝘐𝘵 𝐥𝐨𝐨𝐤𝐬 𝗹𝗶𝗸𝗲 𝑐𝑟𝑎𝑝.

𝙱𝚎𝚌𝚊𝚞𝚜𝚎 𝘄𝗵𝗲𝗻 𝚢𝚘𝚞 𝙧𝙖𝙣𝙙𝙤𝙢𝙡𝙮 𝖒𝖚𝖙𝖎𝖑𝖆𝖙𝖊 𝑡h𝑒 𝘸𝘦𝘪𝘨𝘩𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝐨𝐟 𝕒 𝓅𝒶ℊ𝑒, 𝑖𝑡𝑠 𝖔𝖛𝖊𝖗𝖆𝖑𝖑 𝚌𝚘𝚕𝚘𝚛 — 𝖜𝖍𝖎𝖈𝖍 𝗶𝘀 𝘢 𝑡𝑒𝑟𝑚 𝕠𝕗 𝕒𝕣𝕥 𝐢𝐧 𝙩𝙮𝙥𝙤𝙜𝙧𝙖𝙥𝙝𝙞𝙘 𝒄𝒊𝒓𝒄𝒍𝒆𝒔 — 𝒊𝒔 𝑠𝑒𝑟𝑖𝑜𝑢𝑠𝑙𝑦 𝙝𝙖𝙧𝙢𝙚𝙙 𝖻𝗒 𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐭 𝕤𝕠𝕣𝕥 𝖔𝖋 𝘁𝗵𝗶𝗻𝗴. 𝕴𝖙 𝗹𝗼𝗼𝗸𝘀 𝚕𝚒𝚔𝚎 𝔠𝔯𝔞𝔭.

Jerson Zuleta

Sorry, I don't speak square.

tchrist

𝑩𝒆𝒄𝒂𝒖𝒔𝒆 𝐰𝐡𝐞𝐧 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝗋𝖺𝗇𝖽𝗈𝗆𝗅𝗒 𝕞𝕦𝕥𝕚𝕝𝕒𝕥𝕖 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝙬𝙚𝙞𝙜𝙝𝙩𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝔬𝔣 𝒶 𝒑𝒂𝒈𝒆, 𝒊𝒕𝒔 𝙤𝙫𝙚𝙧𝙖𝙡𝙡 𝗰𝗼𝗹𝗼𝗿 — 𝔴𝔥𝔦𝔠𝔥 𝒾𝓈 𝚊 𝘁𝗲𝗿𝗺 𝚘𝚏 𝔞𝔯𝔱 𝖎𝖓 𝒕𝒚𝒑𝒐𝒈𝒓𝒂𝒑𝒉𝒊𝒄 𝖼𝗂𝗋𝖼𝗅𝖾𝗌 — 𝕚𝕤 𝐬𝐞𝐫𝐢𝐨𝐮𝐬𝐥𝐲 𝚑𝚊𝚛𝚖𝚎𝚍 𝔟𝔶 𝑡h𝑎𝑡 𝓈ℴ𝓇𝓉 𝑜𝑓 𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖓𝖌. 𝙸𝚝 𝕝𝕠𝕠𝕜𝕤 𝗹𝗶𝗸𝗲 𝖈𝖗𝖆𝖕.

Here’s a nickel: get a real computer.

Jerson Zuleta

I've been told that twice today, it's sad.

tchrist

Well, you’re using some lame crap from Microsoft, so what do you expect? Honestly?

Jerson Zuleta

6:06 AM

Should I get Linux, then?

The penguin dude seems nice.

tchrist

I don’t know. A lot of people like it. I use it at $work for our server systems.

Jerson Zuleta

Nah, just kidding. I'll stick to Microsoft tbh. It might be lame but it works & it's somewhat decent for your average person needs.

tchrist

I’m using a Mac right now, which comes with the characters from the “Mathematical_Alphanumeric_Symbols” block already defined. I realize they have only been around SINCE THE TURN OF CENTURY, but after 15 years, it’s time to stop accepting bullshit configurations.

There is no excuse to give people computers that are already 15 years out of date. None. What. So. Ever.

Jerson Zuleta

Oh but you're using a laptop?

tchrist

You may think of it that way if you wish.

I’m actually using a 22” display.

My lap is not that broad.

Jerson Zuleta

6:13 AM

Oh well.

I mean, my parents don't really want to get another computer.

This one works just fine for what we need so... shrugs

tchrist

Then it is up to you to install fonts that aren’t 20 years backwards.

Your choice.

Jerson Zuleta

I think I'll wait till I graduate & get my own laptop.

tchrist

That would be a nice graduation present.

Jerson Zuleta

A trip outside the country would be a nice graduation present.

Or getting a job in the BP.

Damn that'd be nice.

tchrist

What’s “the BP”?

Oil?

Jerson Zuleta

6:19 AM

Yeah.

tchrist

I don’t know anything about that sector, except a tiny bit with regard to the shanty towns that have sprung up around the fracking black-gold rush.

Jerson Zuleta

Yeah, it's sort of like everywhere. People here are making a fuzz about it as well.

tchrist

Wells do that.

Jury’s still out, I think.

Jerson Zuleta

Then again, if you propose an alternative source of energy such as nuclear energy, many people would be against it as well due to the huge risks it carries. You can never keep the people content.

And there's the fact they also think the only use petroleum has is gasoline.

When in fact, they're wearing petroleum by-products.

tchrist

Without the oil industry, popcorn at the cinema would be bone-dry instead of slimy.

Floor wax or dessert topping: now you don’t have to choose.

Jerson Zuleta

6:27 AM

People are always up for a riot when they hear or think they know all about one specific problem, but as soon as they're told the truth, they'll be sceptical about it and then claim conspiracy.

I must leave now. Geology on Saturdays is no fun but it's my duty. G'night!

tchrist

bye

Cerberus

9:26 AM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That will certainly be difficult. But I think getting the modular prototype to work and be stable has been even more difficult. Time will tell whether it succeeds.

@tchrist I managed to spot the error before looking at the answer!

@tchrist They put petrolic products on your popcorn??

Johan Larsson

My guess would be veggie oil

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson Good morning!

Yes, they would use palm oil here as the cheapest oil fit for consumption, probably.

Johan Larsson

God middag

Cerberus

Is that Swedish?

It isn't middag yet!

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus yes, oldish

Cerberus

9:32 AM

In Dutch, we say goede middag.

Which literally means "good noon", but in practice it means "good afternoon".

Johan Larsson

god {morgon, middag, afton, natt}

Cerberus

Goede {morgen, middag, avond, nacht}

Johan Larsson

and god dag

Cerberus

Hmm could afton be related to after?

and goede dag

Johan Larsson

runeberg.org/svetym/0091.html

Cerberus

9:39 AM

Oh, cool!

So it is indeed related to avond/evening, as was to be expected, but also to Greek opse/opisthen!

Johan Larsson

I did not read it, what did it say?

Cerberus

Never would have guessed.

Johan Larsson

Is companion link included or a separate app?

New battery seems to work well in the phone.

Still need sync to avoid the ifån

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson Not sure what you mean. Context?

@JohanLarsson Yay!

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus I read about a companion link somewhere, did not find it in the store thing.

Cerberus

9:48 AM

I'm not sure what "companion link" would mean.

What's ifån?

@JohanLarsson I forgot, what kind of phone do you have now??

You are on Android now, aren't you?

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus iphone in ~Swedish~

Cerberus

Oh haha, I remember.

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus yeah gf's old. Think it is an S2

Cerberus

Ah, OK. An S2 is a fine phone.

Johan Larsson

ajfån would probably be more correct

Cerberus

9:51 AM

I would ask your company whether you can synchronise to their servers the way it is possible over the Internet on Android.

What is your girlfriend's new phone?

@JohanLarsson Right, in Dutch it would be...aaifoon.

Johan Larsson

no way to squeeze in a double i?

for symmetry

Cerberus

Haha, nope.

Johan Larsson

even Dutch has limitations

Cerberus

Haha, even Dutch.

We do have zeeëëind, though—or at least it would be a properly formed word.

Zeeëend is correct and in use.

Although it seems many people spell it zee-eend now...

Johan Larsson

nice one

Cerberus

9:57 AM

Zeeëëind is three syllables: zee-e-eind.

Zeeëend is two: zee-eend.

"Sea duck".

Cerberus

10:32 AM

@tchrist To me, a merchant is typically someone who buys and sells on a large scale and often doesn't have a shop.

I think what you saw in the OED is that tradesman has two senses. It is now most often used in the second sense, "shopkeeper"; and this sense is often extended to mean "people from the lower classes who provide a service for you or sell you a product". The other sense, "craftsman", I never hear.

Johan Larsson

12:31 PM

tried to clone a git repo to the phone's card, it failed, dunno why.

Saladin

1:07 PM

hey anyone?

Robusto

@JohanLarsson Too big?

Johan Larsson

nope have 16GB available on the card. The repo is just ~100K

Robusto

Well, it's git. If you don't want to get in there and twiddle with the bits, maybe you need a simpler DVCS.

Johan Larsson

have you done it?

Robusto

I've fucked with git when I've had to. But I use Mercurial for home use, and at work we use (ugh) Subversion.

Johan Larsson

1:17 PM

Mercurial is nice, so is git ime.

SVN & TFS not so much nice.

Robusto

To me, git is needlessly complicated. I want to do actual work, not fuck with a DVCS.

Johan Larsson

Not sure I agree. I only use a subset of all the features.

I rarely feel like git gets in the way. With TFS & SVN I'm always surprised how they manage to fuck up.

Not sure this is a git issue either.

It could fail with better feedback though.

Robusto

@JohanLarsson I dread merge conflicts in SVN. They can fuck up your shit big time.

Johan Larsson

I adhere to the rule: In SVN, don't branch.

Robusto

Heh . . . that is precisely where the fuck-ups happen.

I refused to work on a ticket because it was in a branch for a file that I'd already modified in trunk.

I said FTS, dude.

Johan Larsson

1:22 PM

SVN creates messes out of nothing by itself.

Renaming files can be enough for me. My SVN skills are low though.

Robusto

Yes. And if someone uses the --force flag to commit, you're in for a world of pain.

Anonymous

I used to use CVS and RCS at work

Robusto

I had to use ClearCase at one job.

Anonymous

Oh, no! :-(

Robusto

3

Q: From ClearCase to Mercurial and now to Subversion. Should I be worried?

When I started my current job, I spent a year in ClearCase hell. Everything was kind of like Mordor in winter, only without the laughs. Then we started using Mercurial. Within about a day and a half the clouds moved away, the sun shone, birds started singing — or were those angels? I asked if thi...

Fun reading.

terdon

1:24 PM

@Robusto I doubt it, as I pointed out in the question:

> (note that I am searching for "many evidences" which should filter out most uses of evidence as a transitive verb):

Robusto

True.

Johan Larsson

Subversion also indicates legacy code to me.

Robusto

@JohanLarsson Yeah. And when it's not legacy code, you begin to wonder about the decision-making at that company.

I've been pushing for Mercurial or git at my company, and so far nobody seems to want to do anything about it.

All of which makes me tired.

Today I just feel like saying "fuck it" and giving notice.

Johan Larsson

@Robusto Yep one of them or both. Both are a bad signs.

Robusto

I'm working on legacy code now that's a year old. And it's a mess.

Johan Larsson

1:30 PM

your code?

Robusto

We had this discussion, I think. They want me to start coding before I start thinking.

Johan Larsson

Are you the local superstar?

Robusto

@JohanLarsson No, of course not. Well, some that I've written in the past couple weeks to meet a death-march deadline has been sub-optimal, but that is the exception.

Johan Larsson

Do you think your one year old code is a mess when you go back to it? I think so about my code most of the time.

Dunno if it means progress or just that it is harder to read code than to write it.

Robusto

@JohanLarsson Actually, no. I'm continually surprised (pleasantly) at how I've thought things through and anticipated future enhancements, etc.

Johan Larsson

1:32 PM

nice

2 mins ago, by Johan Larsson

Are you the local superstar?

Robusto

A lot of times I'll have forgotten all about some code, and thinking how I would add a new feature to it, and then I look in the code and I realize I already allowed for it. Those are mental high-five moments.

"Why not code it to be flexible and reusable?" is my mantra.

Also extensible.

Johan Larsson

hmm, flexible is a double edged sword. Speculative flexibility can add complexity.

Robusto

@JohanLarsson Not broad-brush flexibility. But targeted flexibility. Like when I'm asked to do a certain thing, and I'm coding through and I think, "Hmm, they're eventually going to ask for this to do X," then I don't close the door on X. Kind of simple actually.

Maybe I also leave hooks in there to accommodate X.

Johan Larsson

7 mins ago, by Johan Larsson

Are you the local superstar?

Robusto

You're asking me to be immodest now.

Johan Larsson

1:38 PM

I'm asking you to be you.

Robusto

But yes. I do more and better work than my colleagues. But it's a "big fish, small pond" kind of superstardom. I don't think of myself as a coding superstar, except when the colleagues aren't any kind of stars at all.

Johan Larsson

@Robusto One attitude is that you will not tell them how to drink their coffee and book meetings or surf facebook. And they should just trust you on how you go about writing code.

Robusto

Heh.

Johan Larsson

Having a non-programmer micromanaging must be < optimal.

Fine if they have a say about scope and priority and macro stuff like that.

Robusto

What's worse is, management has no idea how long things actually take.

They think I can build on the crap I checked in over the last two weeks. And I told them I need at least three weeks just to fix that shit. Also, I told them this before when they insisted I have "something working" by the deadline.

> All my life I've been taking shit from inferior people. No more. [...] When I left the Marines I made myself a promise. Never again am I going to be fucked around by morons. The next motherfucker who tries to make me back off is going to have to live it out with me. — Ray Hicks

Johan Larsson

1:51 PM

What was the reaction?

I have a guess

Robusto

The reaction was hostile incomprehension.

Johan Larsson

2:21 PM

haha

Robusto

2:46 PM

@JohanLarsson I'm sure things must be very different in your socialist workers' paradise.

Johan Larsson

I don't see hostile that often. Incomprehension is standard.

Robusto

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Q: Do *appraise* and *apprise* come from the same root?

I am interested in the origin and usage of apprise versus appraise. There is overlap in usage. In one meaning the latter can be substituted for the former and this is recognised in sense 4 in the OED - 'to inform or notify'. Its more common meaning, however, is 'to assess or evaluate'. And app...