English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

12:00 AM

nods

It's always a surprise who it will be this time.

And the nominal flibbertigibbetry! Come on, didn’t they shake that out of themselves back in school? You know, like that weird girl who suddenly decides that she’s got to be called Kaleigh (or Caileigh, or Kaylie, or ...) now instead of Barb or Sue or whatnot?

Kaylee Caileigh Kayleen Kaleigh Kaley Keely Kaelea Caelie Cayley Kaelee Keighley Kayleah Kaylie Kaylyn Kayleigh Kayly Kailee Caleigh. What’s wrong with Kelly, anyway?

Cerberus

I hate silly, novel names.

Every single baby in Holland is now called Sem.

Nobody knows where it came from.

It's not a name; what is worse, it sounds like Sam.

Sam can be pronounced /sem/ or /sam/ in Dutch.

So it sounds like misspelled Sam. I think it came from Sam.

shudders

tchrist

There is an American accent that confuses bag and beg in others’ ears.

Cerberus

No, no.

tchrist

Just checking.

Cerberus

12:10 AM

In English, it makes sense.

But /sem/ and /sam/ are completely different.

As opposed to /beg/ and /bæg/.

Anyway, newfangled names are bad, bad.

tchrist

That should be the open e.

If we’re keeping track.

Cerberus

Oh, and the (rare) name Shanellany also exists.

Or however it's spelled.

MετάEd

@tchrist All right, I'll lurk.

tchrist

@Cerberus WTH is that?

A Kayighleey variant?

Cerberus

I don't know!

Girls exist with that name here.

MετάEd

12:22 AM

Also, this is good reading:

1

A: Should enclosing commas be treated as parentheses?

To me it would have seemed more natural to have written ‘were completely blinded’. You are right. Dan Ariely’s sentence does not seem natural regardless of the punctuation. The answer to your question has to do with what reading is – well, what readers do. And it turns out that neuroscientis...

If I do say so myself.

tchrist

Brains?

MετάEd

@tchrist Is that pronounced "braaaaaaaaains"?

tchrist

What is Brain?

MετάEd

I think it's a cereal ingredient.

That means you eat the same ingredient over, and over, and over.

tchrist

Wikipedia says that Chinese prepositions are a type of verb there. This may explain all the weird questions from certain parts of the globe.

I just had an awful, awful thought.

How long before He Who Shall Not Be Named comes to plague ELL?

Cerberus

12:43 AM

@MετάEd +1

Although you do not directly address the stylistic issues.

I also think the connection between sound and reading is not always as strong.

Think of speed reading.

Your mind really doesn't pronounce anything at all then.

Think also of how we often read about names that we have no idea how to pronounce, that we never even try to pronounce: we only have the word-image in our minds.

tchrist

I don’t know.

Cerberus

Like various names in Tolkien.

tchrist

I never didn’t pronounce those in my mind.

Cerberus

I often didn't.

tchrist

How did you hold on?

Yes, shape matters, but gosh.

Cerberus

12:46 AM

The word shape.

Other people have confirmed this.

tchrist

I don’t understand what reading is without associating a word with at least some auditory representation.

Cerberus

Symbol reading.

tchrist

I wonder what people think of Matt Ellen's name.

Cerberus

When I browse, say, hieroglyphs, I don't think of sounds at all.

Matt Эллен

I can't read it

Cerberus

12:48 AM

Or clothes in a shop.

tchrist

Not everyone can be Princely.

I still disbelieve.

Because otherwise, you missed an important part of the point.

Cerberus

We can handle symbols that do not represent sounds to us.

tchrist

Which was related to phonoaesthetic heresies.

Cerberus

Such as?

tchrist

Cellar doors.

Cerberus

12:49 AM

...

tchrist

Grishnákh vs Legolas.

Shagrat vs Galadriel.

Matt Эллен

hahahaha

tchrist

Ash nazg durbatulûk vs Laurië lantar lassi súrinen

See????

Cerberus

What?

tchrist

Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!

Look at what he is doing.

The heresy is that phonoaesthetics matter.

Cellar doors.

Don’t make me quote more Black Speech at you.

Cerberus

12:54 AM

@MattЭллен Is that a man?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus I'm guessing two women

Cerberus

@tchrist Who said they didn't matter?

They just don't matter always.

tchrist

Or Khuzdûl.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Oh! looks again

tchrist

Even if you do not know what the Et Eärello oath means, I utterly disbelieve that you read that hearing nothing in your head.

Cerberus

12:55 AM

His/her haircut is indeed quite lesbian.

@tchrist I refuse to talk to/as a strawman.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus definitely two women

tchrist

What words of Tolkien are silent symbols to you with no sound? I challenge you to name even one.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Haha, great.

<ignores scarecrow>

tchrist

13 mins ago, by Cerberus

Think also of how we often read about names that we have no idea how to pronounce, that we never even try to pronounce: we only have the word-image in our minds.

13 mins ago, by Cerberus

Like various names in Tolkien.

Matt Эллен

@tchrist how could he name one that has no sound?

tchrist

12:59 AM

> “Think of how we often read names that we have no idea how to pronounce, that we never try to pronounce ... like various names in Tolkien.”

Prove it, or recant.

aedia λ

@MετάEd nice answer. Should have come with a "hide all the cheese" warning though

tchrist

Time’s up: bluff busted.

Cerberus

How could I prove that?

I tell you that it is so.

I cannot prove how my own pronunciation and that of people I know works.

tchrist

Name a word that you never had a thought as to its pronunciation. I simply do not believe you, because Tolkien used very simple orthographic conventions that are well grounded in your own studies. He used Latin values for everything.

Cerberus

It happens most easily with smaller spelling issues, like Dol Guldur.

I have to look that one up every time.

Is it Goldur? Guldor?

I never pronounce it.

I know there is something about u's and o's, but I never remember where.

tchrist

1:06 AM

Minas Morgul.

Same GUL.

It ties it together.

Cerberus

Similarly, I can never remember Osgiliath.

aedia λ

I skip and forget them unless they come up later. I know it's awful of me to do such a thing to even Tolkien, but... It interrupts my reading to have to pronounce things.

Cerberus

I used to spell it Osgalliath.

tchrist

What do you not remember?

Oh.

But the stars!

Gil-galad.

Cerberus

Of course the u's make one think of evil, but their exact place I will forget.

tchrist

1:08 AM

It has to be -GIL-.

Cerberus

I never knew what Osgiliath meant. I never learned the language, except a few roots, like Mor and dor.

tchrist

O Elbereth GILthoniel, star-kindler.

Gilrain, Aragorn’s mother. Star-wanderer.

Kinda.

Cerberus

Another fact. One of the most important ways I remember names I half-forgot is synaesthetically. I remember there was some blue and dark purple in Dol Guldur, so there must be o's and u's somewhere.

tchrist

As with Mithrandir.

The Grey Pilgrim.

Agree on the colors of Dol Guldur. I think it may be the vowels. Not sure.

aedia λ

I listened to all LOTR on audiotape and saw the movies and I also still barely know the proper nouns. Oh. I don't have synaesthesia though. *jealous *

Cerberus

1:11 AM

When in doubt while reading, I always fall back on pronouncing it in my mind, but not when speed-reading.

@aediaλ You probably do the same thing by other means!

aedia λ

(Stupid phone keeps putting a space before my asterisk!)

Cerberus

@tchrist For me, o is normally dark blue, and u dark purple/brown. Has nothing to do with the word.

@aediaλ Hmm you're doing rather well, for a unicorn hooving a tiny touch screen.

No, the interesting thing about reading and writing is that sound and vision are combined.

That's what makes it complex.

Not everything about it can best be explained based on the sound alone.

Some things, yes; but not all.

aedia λ

Haha, I try.

Cerberus

Do you often accidentally crush the screen?

Is it hard to press the letters on the keyboard?

aedia λ

1:27 AM

Miraculously, I have never seriously broken a phone that I can remember. It must be the capacitive pixie dust. I often want to stomp on the BlackBerry if I need to type on it.

Its hardware keyboard and my hooves are not friends.

tchrist

Oh weird!

I just got the old "possible dupe" behavior.

-1

Q: hitler will send no warnings vs hitler won't send warnings

Are they the same thing or make differences on expression？Why do native speaker choose the first one?Thank you in advance

expressions

No blue banner.

Oh, there it is. Nebber mind.

Cerberus

@aediaλ Haha, capacitive dust, certainly.

Matt Эллен

right. I've got the stats now. stupid SQL. good night.

aedia λ

Sleep well!

tchrist

Close stats?

And he didn’t even tell us the answer.

I guess it was what we thought.

aedia λ

1:38 AM

Brb(ish). Snow-progress-checking.

tchrist

2:27 AM

Well, we’ll see if that works.

Ahah, it did.

Her chapter titles are really funny.

WOE IS I: Therapy for Pronoun Anxiety
PLURALS BEFORE SWINE: Blunders With Numbers
YOURS TRULY: The Possessives and the Possessed
THEY BEG TO DISAGREE: Putting Verbs in Their Place

@JoeHanna I just searched the whole Owl and the Pussycat looking for historical backing. No luck.

I’d try Sir Gawain, but the poetic form may not lend itself to these things.

Chatting generally requires the use of the RETURN key. :)

Oh, there goes the neighborhood again.

Tabula rasa.

@Jon?

@JonHanna?

I can ping thee from the vasty deep.

We have three time travellers with us tonight.

What’s tomorrow like, anyway?

I seem as effective as Glendower.

TRiG

in Islam, 1 min ago, by El'endia Starman

...an atheist and a Christian just discussed Jewish law in a chat room for Islam. Awesome. :P

tchrist

That’s bound to get ’em goin’.

Still sounds like a “. . . walked into a bar” joke.

Sick transit.

‭ 🙊  1F64A      SPEAK-NO-EVIL MONKEY

What’s this, hot pursuit?

I summoned Jon Hanna, and instead I get . . . what?

TRiG

2:43 AM

@tchrist Ye gods, it's real. Why?

tchrist

Of course it’s real. It’s to keep its two brethren company.

El'endia Starman

@tchrist Dude, Caleb (one of the Christianity mods) had a discussion with one of the (now mod) Islam members for 9.5 hours. 9.5 hours. And it wasn't flamey either!

tchrist

Oops, there are more than I knew.

‭ 🐒  1F412      MONKEY
        * ninth of the signs of the Asian zodiac
‭ 🐵  1F435      MONKEY FACE
‭ 🙈  1F648      SEE-NO-EVIL MONKEY
‭ 🙉  1F649      HEAR-NO-EVIL MONKEY
‭ 🙊  1F64A      SPEAK-NO-EVIL MONKEY

El'endia Starman

@TRiG ...I'm so sharing that to Facebook!

TRiG

> signs of the Asian zodiac

tchrist

2:44 AM

@El'endiaStarman It was a joke. Would you care for some decorative emotica to lend subtle savour to my quips?

TRiG

Ah. That actually makes some kind of sense.

El'endia Starman

@tchrist I knew it was a joke. But still!

TRiG

@tchrist Oh, so the blank page I saw wasn't just a browser glitch?

tchrist

@TRiG No: ever and anon do we pass through the Twilight Zone for a spell.

TRiG

@El'endiaStarman Nine and a half hours of debate/discussion is actually impressive. I started reading that. Might go back to it, one day.

tchrist

2:46 AM

‭ 😼  1F63C      CAT FACE WITH WRY SMILE

2

El'endia Starman

@tchrist The real question is: when are these actually going to be implemented? :P

tchrist

What did we ever do before Unicode, anyway?

@El'endiaStarman Huh? I’ve had them for years. Do you need a nickel?

Mistu4u

@tchrist Do you speak formally in those words "It was a joke. Would you care for some decorative emotica to lend subtle savour to my quips?"

I found it hard to grasp.

TRiG

@El'endiaStarman It exists.

tchrist

@El'endiaStarman Define “implemented”.

Certainly code point U+1F63C is perfectly well defined in all properties, and has been since Unicode v6.0.

TRiG

2:50 AM

13 mins ago, by tchrist

I can ping thee from the vasty deep.

El'endia Starman

@tchrist Well, in the blockquote, I just see a square. The picture in the site that TRiG linked earlier doesn't seem to actually have a speak-no-evil monkey picture.

tchrist

@El'endiaStarman Prisoner of $Bill, eh?

That has nothing to do with whether it is “implemented”.

TRiG

@Mistu4u Looks like @tchrist is in mock-heroic move this eve.

tchrist

The question is: when will you bother to use a font that supports modern code points?

I have a link here somewhere.

El'endia Starman

@tchrist When I'm non-lazy enough to change it and I actually have a reason to do so?

Mistu4u

2:51 AM

@TRiG hmm, he is clearly in a "killing spree" :P

TRiG

@tchrist My Internet connection is slow, and besides, my computer hasn't moved house yet. So I hang around late (2:51 a.m.) in the office instead. So right now, I'm with Bill.

tchrist

@El'endiaStarman Here fetch Symbola.

looks for a nickel

@Mistu4u That’s cuz it came pre-greased.

All the best ones do.

’K, ’nuff of these NNNS riffs.

@Troyen: Eh, they probably pushed a change that broke the questions cache. Eventually, all lists on all sites should exhibit the same symptoms of having empty lists as the caches continue to attempt reloading and break. — animuson 10 mins ago

@TRiG It’s just that Micro$ofties have traditionally had utter crap for font support; hence the Prisoner of $Bill.

El'endia Starman

3:07 AM

I see them now!

tchrist

Lo!

El'endia Starman

Well, it's not just Microsoft. I had to change Chrome's font settings too.

tchrist

Strange, the Mac seems to have a better font-sub policy.

If you have a font with replacement glyph, it shall find it.

It doesn’t matter what your current font is.

You are not limited.

TRiG

@tchrist Tomorrow, I'm rearranging furniture, then moving my computer. After that, I'll check this room and see what it looks like.

tchrist

‭ 🐧  1F427      PENGUIN
‭ 🐨  1F428      KOALA
‭ 🐩  1F429      POODLE
‭ 🐪  1F42A      DROMEDARY CAMEL
        * has a single hump
‭ 🐫  1F42B      BACTRIAN CAMEL
        * has two humps
‭ 🐬  1F42C      DOLPHIN

‭ ⚢  26A2       DOUBLED FEMALE SIGN
        = lesbianism
        x (two women holding hands - 1F46D)
‭ ⚤  26A4       INTERLOCKED FEMALE AND MALE SIGN
        * a glyph variant has the two circles on the same line
        = bisexuality
‭ ⚥  26A5       MALE AND FEMALE SIGN
        = transgendered sexuality
        = hermaphrodite (in entomology)
‭ ⚧  26A7       MALE WITH STROKE AND MALE AND FEMALE SIGN
        = transgendered sexuality
‭ 🜠  1F720      ALCHEMICAL SYMBOL FOR COPPER ORE
        x (female sign - 2640)

Alchemy.

Always important.

‭ ⚨  26A8       VERTICAL MALE WITH STROKE SIGN
        = alchemical symbol for iron
‭ ⚩  26A9       HORIZONTAL MALE WITH STROKE SIGN
        = alchemical symbol for iron
‭ ⚪  26AA       MEDIUM WHITE CIRCLE
        = asexuality, sexless, genderless
        = engaged, betrothed
        * base for male or female sign

‭ ☣  2623       BIOHAZARD SIGN
‭ ☢  2622       RADIOACTIVE SIGN
‭ 📻  1F4FB      RADIO
‭ 🔘  1F518      RADIO BUTTON

And for the final volley. . . .

‭ 👽  1F47D      EXTRATERRESTRIAL ALIEN
‭ 👾  1F47E      ALIEN MONSTER

You know we needed those.

TRiG

3:14 AM

Source.

El'endia Starman

@TRiG [SNORT]

Robusto

5:13 AM

14 inches of snow on my porch so far. We'll see what it's like in the morning.

El'endia Starman

@Robusto Aw man. We've only got like 3-4 inches over here in Rochester...

Epitorial

6:44 AM

I have to ask. Why do most of the words in Terms and Conditions capitalized?

Robusto

11:36 AM

20" so far this morning, and it's still coming down. Shit, I'm going to have to use the snowblower pretty soon just to keep up.

Cerberus

11:59 AM

Wow!

That is too much.

Robusto

Here's the difference in pictures: the first is from yesterday about noon, the second is from half an hour ago.

Those are both looking out from my front door, which I am unable to open this morning.

@Cerb ^

Cerberus

Wow, incredible. That does look like half a metre, as you say.

Must be fun for children!

And a nightmare for everybody else.

Robusto

Children would get lost in it.

Cerberus

They would dig tunnels!

Robusto

Which would collapse on them.

Cerberus

12:09 PM

Naaaaah.

They would think of something.

Robusto

My mailbox is almost covered.

Cerberus

"My mailbox is buried in snow" somehow sounds more romantic than "my mailbox is buried in spam".

Robusto

That's not a kid.

Also not your kid.

Also only one head.

Cerberus

The other two are covered with snow.

And it is a young dog.

Ain't he cute?

Robusto

With only a single head?

Cerberus

12:22 PM

With only one visible head.

Kit

12:49 PM

My front entryway is bare, but the snow is drifted over the back of my car.

It is still coming down, but it's so crazily drifted, I have no idea how much there is. It could be a foot, it might be 6 inches.

Matt Эллен

It tried to snow here, but didn't settle. I was glad.

tchrist

It’s weird having fire warnings and blizzard warnings together.

Maybe that should be fire warmings with an m.

Cerberus

It's snowing here now.

Why fire?

tchrist

I think because the snow hasn’t gotten to that part yet. Not sure.

Cerberus

Huh.

It is +2 here, so the snow will melt, yay!

tchrist

1:03 PM

The snow melts here even below freezing if the sun is on it. In fact, it often doesn’t bother melting, just sublimes.

Cerberus

But probably not fast enough.

tchrist

Notice blizzard in the NE but fire danger in the SE.

Yes, I don’t think the subliming is all that fast.

Cerberus

Matt Эллен

@tchrist we have the 4th highest closed to new ratio of all sites excluding betas, SO and Ask Patents. I excluded those because SO is silly to compare against and the others don't have stats in the SEDE

tchrist

@MattЭллен Which three are higher?

Cerberus

1:06 PM

Why is SO silly to compare against?

Matt Эллен

Programmers
WebMasters
WebApps

tchrist

And why exclude Patents?

Matt Эллен

@tchrist it's not in the SEDE

tchrist

I see.

Cerberus

So our closure rate is high.

Matt Эллен

1:06 PM

@Cerberus because it is too big

Cerberus

For what?

tchrist

So it looks like these are places that attract questions where those sites’ denizens regularly find them closable.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus to make sense to look at

Cerberus

Why?

tchrist

Which is the nicest way to say that it attracts low-quality questions.

Cerberus

1:07 PM

I barely know SO.

tchrist

Or dumb questions.

Or irritating questions.

Does SO have a higher ratio?

Matt Эллен

I haven't determined the significance of the difference between scores

@tchrist OK, I'll take a look.

tchrist

It has millions of users, so it is difficult to compare.

I bet it does not. Too much happening for people to notice.

When I looked, it did not appear to.

Programmers is interesting.

Matt Эллен

gah Open Office is failing to be useful

tchrist

@MattЭллен Related: is the numeric gap between us and others (the next three down, say) close or far?

@MattЭллен I know, I know: it doesn’t know vi keystrokes. :)

No, really—what do you mean?

Matt Эллен

1:13 PM

it's giving me divide by zero errors for no reason

tchrist

You need a bigger zero.

Is this related to the stats?

Matt Эллен

SO's close rate has steadily increased over the last year

tchrist

That’s interesting.

Tragedy of the Commons.

Matt Эллен

I'll work out the std dev of the sites after I've got SO's details

so's new and closed are 100 times more than anyone elses

the are 18th, so right in the middle

tchrist

That makes sense.

Matt Эллен

1:28 PM

sorry, 21st. I was reading upside down. still right in the middle

what I want to figure out from the SEDE is how to exclude duplicates

tchrist

Or put them in a separate class at least, so you can also measure those.

Matt Эллен

yeah

bbl laundry

tchrist

I’ve been losing authentication a lot in the last day or so. Makes you relogin, or claims to.

I wonder if a recent build didn’t hose something.

tchrist

1:46 PM

When (and why, and where) did people suddenly start using informed instead of the simpler shaped? It seems like trendy business-speak, substituting a fancy word for a shorter one. Every single time I hear someone do this, I am taken aback and briefly confused, so either I have early-onset Alzheimer’s, or this is some cursi neologism.

It seems like a gratuitous Latinism to me.

Curious open–close thought exercise: Randomly select 10 each of open and closed questions on ELU. Exclude duplicates and migrants. Now do the same for ELL. On each of your 4 lists of 10 questions, ask yourself, “Would (or should) this question have the same open–close status if it were on the other site?”

Possible answers are yes, no, and dunno.

It’s a way to see whether we can see our way clean to a clear separation of sites.

user19161

Someone flagged me in the math room for saying "I am not of this world" and "I am only a banana".

user19161

I came here to vent.

user19161

This is simply ridiculous.

01100001

"Kids sweating have a smell." -- is it grammatically correct?

sorry, just realized. Nothing's wrong with it. :P

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…