English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

It's sometimes coinage. Probably refers to a person's "inner" environment.

*someone's

Stupid mobile interface doesn't allow edits.

3:50 AM

@JasperLoy Se oli hyvää.

user19161

4:01 AM

@Mahnax Good good.

@JasperLoy Yes, I agree.

Now, I'm just procrastinating.

sigh

user19161

@Mahnax What do you mean?

How are you, @Jasper?

@JasperLoy Oh, I'm just putting off shovelling the snow, homework, etc.

user19161

@Mahnax Same, still trying to get better.

@JasperLoy Alright. Well, I really should be off. I'll be back in a couple hours if you feel like chatting some more.

user19161

4:03 AM

@Mahnax Have fun.

@JasperLoy Ha, shovelling is not fun, but I'll try.

Anyways, later!

8:11 AM

@Vitaly This is lame. Whoever wrote this would have been far better off going out and finding a real girl.

10:20 AM

@Jon: 2 3 × 4 5 × +

26?

Why is this 2 × 3 + 4 × 5 and not, say, (2 × 3) x 4 × 5 (and then the plus should add things up in some way I haven't thought about yet)?

Hi!

It is from Jon's article on concatenating languages.

OK, so imagine a pile of small pieces of paper. I can add more paper to the top of the pile. So when you see "2", that means, write "2" on a piece of paper and put it on the pile.

I barely understand what they are, but that shouldn't keep me from question him, huh?

When you see "+" or "x", that means, take the top two pieces of paper off the pile, add (or multiply) the numbers thereon, and put the result back on the pile.

10:24 AM

Why top two?

Why not? I didn't make the rules.

Hmm.

And what separates the "things" the + operates on?

Nothing separates the things. But by the time you get to the +, there are two things left on the pile. There's 6 (at the bottom), and 20 (on top of it).

Currently it's (2 3 x) (4 5 x) +, apparently.

No, you don't need the parentheses.

10:27 AM

I know.

I was explaining how it seemed to work in my simplistic mind.

So how does the plus know that it needs to look back exactly to the first x and the second x?

That appears to be what it's doing.

Perhaps I need to go and read Jon's article. But this used to be a fairly common way of expressing calculations to computing machines.

It adds whatever two things are uppermost on the pile.

Go and look up "reverse Polish notation" somewhere, like maybe Wikipedia.

I'm sure it is. The structure of the pile is just not clear to me.

@DavidWallace Eek!

@DavidWallace Oh, I understand that every thingy operates on the things that are to its left: that is not my problem.

Why eek? One woman that I used to work with still has a calculator that works this way.

The eek! was about the funny, obscure-sounding name.

So what is the problem exactly? Apart from the fact that this notation is unfamiliar to you?

10:32 AM

The problem was that Jon didn't explain that + (and x, I presume) take only two arguments.

And that I don't know how far to the left it will go.

5 mins ago, by Cerberus

So how does the plus know that it needs to look back exactly to the first x and the second x?

But in more conventional notation, + and x both take only two arguments.

Is it that the output variables are passed on while the "used" input is destroyed?

@JonPurdy I speyed a kitten called Language.

I am not a programmer, so I don't know all these simple assumptions that no doubt any of you take for granted.

Yes, the output goes back onto the pile.

10:35 AM

He didn't explain that, as it was written for programmers.

So I guess that makes it sort of clear.

So if I go 1 2 3 4 5 + + + +, the first + changes the stack to 1 2 3 9. The next + changes it to 1 2 12. The next one makes it 1 14. The last + makes it 15.

I always imagine the numbers going bottom to top, not left to right. I don't know why.

Oh, yes.

@DavidWallace Because you are imagining readable surfaces. A readable surface must be horizontal if you're looking at a desk; so, if one makes the other inaccessible, it must be because it is on top of it, blocking your view.

But consider this: you are looking at a card-index box that is sitting on the left side of your desk. You can only see the rightmost card.

No, that's just somehow less appealing. If you insist on writing things from left to right, rather than bottom to top, I'm just going to have to turn my head sideways (-:

@DavidWallace Hehe I sympathize with your obstinence.

Huh since when is that not a word?

angry

10:51 AM

I think you spelt it wrong.

But I knew what you meant.

@DavidWallace well, first, the author is a philosopher, so you'll have to excuse him! second, if the many-worlds interpretation is true, at least a large chunk of those possible girls are real, contrary to what a human male's evolved cognitive architecture might say

Hmm, my dictionary has only obstinacy.

If she's not giving me her number, I can't accept her as real.

@DavidWallace Hmm I suppose that is a more familiar word.

Wiktionary has obstinance.

and obstinateness

Shoot me dead if I ever use the latter.

> Following the election of Boris Johnson as mayor of London, drinking on London public transportation was made illegal. This was supported by those who felt it would decrease antisocial behaviour, but opposed by those who argued that alcohol relieved the discomfort of a commute.

@DavidWallace Me too.

Somehow this ^ makes me laugh.

10:57 AM

@DavidWallace is there any fundamental difference between your interaction with a girl you call real on the phone and the interaction with a possible girl described in the paper?

Would I talk to someone on the phone whom I was never going to meet?

The girl in the paper doesn't talk back?

She is only described.

@Cerberus did you read it?

No.

Just trying to irk you.

@Cerberus she's picked from the space of possible girls by your description, so whatever you want your possible girl to say, is what the real possible girl in another world says :)

10:59 AM

@Cerberus I figured it was safe to assume that + and × were of the ordinary two-operand variety. But maybe I should start assuming that assumptions are never safe. :P

You could have a variant that reads the number of operands from the stack, then reads that many more numbers.

@Vitaly But I cannot perceive her.

@JonPurdy Heh, no, I am just not a programmer.

So you could write 2 3 5 3 # (where # is a super +) and get 10.

Every text about programming is full of riddles, assumptions, and especially terminology that I am unfamiliar with.

Cerberus, what is your profession?

I don't accept "gatekeeper of Hades" or similar as a valid answer.

11:01 AM

@DavidWallace ah, so this comes down to breeding in the world you call real. I see. Well, except that every particle in this world splits the Universe in two every single moment, according to the MWI, anyway!

Classicist/philosopher/historian.

@Vitaly Why just particles, and not just half a particle?

@DavidWallace The regularisation of English is a fine and natural process—but -ness isn’t the best-sounding nominalising suffix.

Or the empty space in between?

@JonPurdy Yeah it's usually ugly with non-Germanic stems.

@Cerberus why not, indeed

Yeah, why is beautifulness uglier than ugliness?

I don't know what classicists and philosophers do. But I do have a nephew who's a historian.

11:03 AM

@DavidWallace You can, but allowing dynamic stack effects is a bad idea for a number of reasons, not least being that you can no longer infer the type of a function in general, and thus have no guarantees about what it may or may not blow up.

@DavidWallace Because it is generally best to use a suffix that matches the stem's language of origin.

@DavidWallace Good.

@JonPurdy but that makes debugging more fun!

@DavidWallace Evil, thy name is Dave.

Good that I don't know what you do? Or good that I have such a nephew?

-wise is such a great suffix.

11:06 AM

I find it an annoying suffix. But to its credit, it doesn't often get spelt with a z.

It’s adverbalising, but almost topicalising.

Delicious.

@Vitaly Are you sure it's only two?

I mean, if you've got a photon at some moment in time, it could not split up, or it could split into an electron and a positron, or it could split into a neutrino and an anti-neutrino. Or dozens of other possibilities. So it must split the universe into at least three, generally more.

@DavidWallace Nephew.

@JonPurdy I don't know.

Yes. He specialises in New Zealand history, and he only came to New Zealand when he was 16.

@JonPurdy It reeks of Wardour Street.

So it must at all times be used ironically. And even then.

@DavidWallace Aww.

Where did he come from?

11:12 AM

@DavidWallace well, the MWI doesn't say exactly when splitting happens, but it's assumed that it happens at the moment of decoherence

Sarajevo. Like my wife and all of her family.

Oh, cool.

Did they flee from the war?

so basically the branching is defined by a measurement process

that is, when the photon interacts with something

So how many streets in the world have their own page on Wikipedia?

and realizes one of its possible states, i.e. decoheres

11:15 AM

@DavidWallace About 139,000.

@DavidWallace My street has a page on English wiki.

It has about 150 addresses.

@Cerberus How could you possibly know that, to such accuracy?

@DavidWallace I'm a philosopher. The number is immediately obvious to me.

@Cerberus Yes

@Cerberus Oh how silly of me.

Is your street on Wiki?

I can't find any streets in my city, on Wikipedia. Although I found several in nearby Wellington.

11:18 AM

Oh, and my previous street is also on English Wiki!

Hmm I guess Europe has an advantage.

Wikipedia tells me that a major street near my house (in Lower Hutt, New Zealand) is actually a major ring road in Liverpool.

Vijzelstraat 31 (Amsterdam)

Haha yes.

Oh, Wiki even has individual addresses!

on , Amsterdam, Netherlands, is a house, probably dating from the 17th century. It has a gable roof from the first half of the 18th century. The building is currently used as shop, together with the adjacent buildings (numbers 27 to 35) by Aurora, a supplier of electrical and electronic products. The building has the status of "'" (national monument). References * [http://www.kich.nl/kich2010/rapport.jsp?id_qualifier=ODB:Rijksmonumentnr&id=6190 Rijksmonumentenregister]

Keizersgracht 453

Keizersgracht 453 is a canal house with a neck gable on the northeastern side of the Keizersgracht between Leidsegracht and Leidsestraat. It is a national monument of "very high value" (zeer hoge waarde) and "national distinction" (nationale kenmerkendheid) according to the Dutch Cultural Heritage agency. Construction It was built in 1669. Residents and Functions *In 1855, Michael Wilhelm Lieber (b. 1788-05?-13), a doctor, lived here. *In July 1867 Fredericus Hendricus Schuver (b. 1825-08-17), a trader, moved here Cornelis van Gogh *Cornelis Marinus van Gogh (1826–1908), uncle of the fa...

Etc. etc.

OK, here's the best I can do. Not strictly speaking a street, but it does pass within a couple of km of my house.

Hutt Valley Expressway

The Hutt Valley Expressway is a 20 km (12 mi) section of State Highway 2, running from the end of the Wellington Urban Motorway at the Ngauranga, near Wellington, past Lower Hutt, to the seagull intersection at Fergusson Drive and River Road. The road has two names: Hutt Road from the Ngauranga Interchange to the Petone Overbridge, and Western Hutt Road from the Petone Overbridge to Fergusson Drive. Design The road is mainly two lanes each way, with a three-lane northbound section just south of the Belmont Hills intersection. The road is dual carriageway except for a small section between...

Oddly, the section called "Western Hutt Rd" is north-east of the section called "Hutt Rd".

Oh, cool. That is a pretty long article.

@DavidWallace Outrageous! The government should immediately have the roads retraced.

If they are really wrong, they must be relocated.

Oh, and it's taught me something too. I had never heard of a "seagull intersection" until now.

Seagull intersection

A seagull intersection or continuous green-T intersection is a common type of three-way at-grade intersection, usually used on high traffic volume roads and dual carriageways. This form of intersection is popular in Australia and New Zealand, and sometimes used in the United States. Design Note: This section refers to countries driving on the left. For countries that drive on the right, reverse left and right. Seagull intersections get their name from the pattern that the two right-turn lanes make when looking down from the air. Seagull intersections allow one direction of traffic to ...

11:29 AM

although I have frequently driven on the three in the Wellington region that are mentioned in the article.

squawk!

That looks complicated.

I have a feeling that the Seagull Intersection article was written by someone from this part of NZ.

Haha yes?

Does he use weird dialect forms, like hotzpoddle?

By the way, is it Monday already for you?

No, it's just that he/she has tried to put together a list of them, and 60% of the list is within 20km of my home.

11:32 AM

Ah OK, funny.

Oh crap, it's been Monday for about half an hour.

That is sad.

You have my condolences.

The day has only just started here, the sun is shining bright!

And one of them is not there any more (which the article does state).

Perhaps she moved?

Actually, not sure about the Porirua one; might be closer to 30km.

And I don't think "hotzpoddle" is a NZism.

11:35 AM

Oh, is it general Oceanic?

I've never heard it before. And it's not in The New Zealand Oxford Dictionary. I strongly suspect you made it up.

FWIW, most words that are specific to New Zealand English are borrowings from Maori.

@DavidWallace Hmm perhaps that's it.

guilty look

@DavidWallace Oh, like what?

Look, I have never seen a hotzpoddle outside of New Zealand, thus it must be a NZism.

See, Reg does present some strong Bayesian evidence here.

Names of birds (kea, tui) and trees (kauri, matai). Concepts specific to Maori culture, like haka, hangi, whangai and so on.

11:39 AM

Oh, and do you actually use words from the latter category?

And things that are just easier to say in Maori, like "iwi" (tribe or clan) and "whanau" (extended family).

Do you use those words?

With friends?

Or just as some kind of joke?

Not to mention the words "Maori" and "Pakeha". And yes, most NZers would use these words.

Funny.

and be comfortable therewith.

I have to make a conscious effort to avoid using them to non-NZers.

11:40 AM

We don't have an indigenous language like that. Except peasant speak, but that is so ugly...

@DavidWallace You should use them! I think they're quaint.

I will just nod and pretend to understand, as I always do.

"whakapapa" is a good one, although it sounds rude in English. It means something like "ancestry" or "genealogy".

Funny.

Papa = father?

No, "papa" usually means "floor" or "level".

We have a Japanese restaurant here called Wagamama.

@DavidWallace Oh...

It sounds rude, because "wh" in Maori is pronounced something like "f", although it varies a bit by location.

11:43 AM

Oh, bother.

Just use it!

It's also the name of a ski field on Mt Ruapehu.

►

@Cerberus Sure, but non-NZers sometimes get offended by this term.

You know this? ^

People didn't get offended by that!

We also have a town called Whakatane, which is similarly embarrassing.

and a geothermal area called Whakarewarewa.

In fact, whaka- is quite a common prefix in Maori; it usually means something to do with family relationships, and it's correct to say "fucker".

11:50 AM

It is correct to pronounce it like that?

Yeah, pronunciation of WH does vary in different parts of the country. In some places, it's definitely F; in others, it's just an aspirated W; in some parts it's more like H. Or it can be something in between the three.

At school, children are taught to pronounce it as F, so that it comes out different from WH.

Your children must love Maori.

I don't know. It wasn't compulsory when I was a kid, but it is now. I went to a primary school (= elementary school) where French was compulsory, and never learnt any Maori.

I suppose French is culturally more important? Or is literature in Maori popular?

The third line of our national anthem is "ata whakarongona", which might sound like it starts off "utter fucker".

French went seriously out of vogue here overnight in 1985.

11:56 AM

@DavidWallace Haha nice.

Out of vogue? The influence of French on your culture stopped?

In July 1985, French terrorists bombed a boat in Auckland Harbour. Suddenly, nobody in NZ wanted to have anything to with France or anything associated with France.

Huh??

French terrorists? What did they want?

And why did people take it out on all of France?

Sinking of the Rainbow Warrior

The sinking of the Rainbow Warrior, codenamed Opération Satanique, was an operation by the "action" branch of the French foreign intelligence services, the Direction Générale de la Sécurité Extérieure (DGSE), carried out on July 10, 1985. It aimed to sink the flagship of the Greenpeace fleet, the Rainbow Warrior in the port of Auckland, New Zealand, to prevent her from interfering in a nuclear test in Moruroa. Fernando Pereira, a photographer, drowned on the sinking ship. Two French agents were arrested by the New Zealand Police on passport fraud and immigration charges. They were charged...

Ah, I see.

Okay, that is serious business.

Why didn't they just damage it?

Destroy the engine?

That shouldn't be too hard.

Who knows? Can anybody really know what the agents' orders were?

Umm, it's 1am. I really need to go to bed.

Happy to discuss this some other time, if you're interested. But I have to work today. So good night.

12:05 PM

@DavidWallace Night!

That is an pretty interesting tale.

The French should just have bugged the ship and tracked/followed it.

That way it would have been fairly easy to prevent it from arriving at Mururoa by blocking its course with a few warships.

1:16 PM

As soon as you speak of Opération Satanique, Robusto shows up just a couple hours later.

@RegDwightѬſ道 Coincidence? I think not.

Q: the best word for the blank

We'll find out. I'll just mention the Opération Satanique more often.

user19161

We have quite a number of crossword puzzle questions.

user19161

-3

Possible Duplicate: an English word with four letters please help me find the correct word for the blank in the following sentence. 'Mr. Smith is not mean. He is a very--------man.' The one should be a four-letter word which its third letter is 'c'. thank you

word-choice

user19161

-5

Q: an English word with four letters

I'm looking for a word that is the opposite of the word 'mean'. It has four letters, which its third letter is 'c'. thank you

word-choice

user19161

1:27 PM

The answer is "nice". QED.

It's only two and they are by the same guy. No exaggerations in this chat.

Coffee and breakfast. Mahlzeit.

user19161

I commented with "nice". That should stop him from posting the third time.

Oh Jasper.

That will only teach him that if he keeps asking over and over again, someone will answer.

user19161

But that might encourage him to post another crossword puzzle, oops!

1:30 PM

Anyhow. Dinner time here.

Laters.

2:04 PM

Hi I'm bored.

@RegDwightѬſ道 You're late today.

2:21 PM

@Cerberus Hi, bored, I'm entertained by your boredom.

@RegDwightѬſ道 BTW, pro tip for the Direction Générale de la Sécurité Extérieure: don't give your ~~terrorist plots~~ spec ops code names involving Satan. It pisses off the locals. You're welcome.

user19161

2:56 PM

@Robusto You have pro tips for many things. It seems you are a master of all trades.

user19161

@Cerberus You may study more Greek and Latin then.

3:10 PM

Hi again!

I'm baking chocolate cookies.

whole house smells of chocolate cookies

user19161

@Cerberus Very good. I will take the whole oven.

@JasperLoy Noooo! You may have half.

Deal?

user19161

@Cerberus OK!

Then we will each distribute alms amongst the poor of mind.

user19161

I changed back to JB, yay!

3:19 PM

@Cerberus congratulations! i am terrible at baking

user19161

A baker's dozen > a dozen. QED.

that just proves that bakers are terrible at math

via dotsies.org

user19161

@Vitaly Wow that is unreadable!

@JasperLoy on the contrary, perfectly readable once you've understood the logic

i'm reading it right now :)

3:29 PM

@Vitaly When do you think it will catch on with the reading public? If there's a pool, I'll take the over.

@JSBᾶngs Really? What happens when you try?

Although I must say they haven't turn out exceptionally great...

@Cerberus i wind up with burned and/or chewy, undelicious lumps of flour

user19161

@JSBᾶngs Did you follow a well tested recipe?

@JSBᾶngs Hmm mine are a little bit like that. But that's mainly because of the cocoa powder. How about very simple cookies, just butter, sugar, flour, baking powder?

@JasperLoy yes. mostly.

i'm not very motivated to try

i'm willing to buy my baked goods

and my wife makes very good bread

3:34 PM

Cookies are sort of fun to make, and you don't need to buy anything that you haven't in your pantry already.

So ideal for a Sunday afternoon.

night now it's blizzarding outside my window

v. pretty

however it kept me from going to church today :(

3:58 PM

@JSBᾶngs God sent a blizzard to keep you out of church. Divine intervention.

2

4:13 PM

Hehe.

@Reg, @Vit: Looks like LB are pouring it on. 1300 behind. Not sure sniping is going to be an option unless we get more support by then.

user19161

@mahnax How was the shovelling?

@JasperLoy Tiring.

user19161

@Mahnax Good good.

@JasperLoy I disagree, hah. We had a lot of snow.

user19161

4:19 PM

@Mahnax Well, it is good exercise for the body.

Q: What's wrong with "more you work hard,wisher you will be"

@JasperLoy This is true.

user19161

I just tried starring and unstarring a chat message for the first time, fascinating.

user19161

@mahnax So you are using TeXshop?

user19161

4:46 PM

-1

I don't know why the sentence more you work hard,wisher you will be is incorrect. Would It can be _ The more you word hard,the wisher you will be_. it it is so then Why?

grammar

user19161

Off topic.

user19161

I have now cast the most number of votes for all time on ELU. Yay!

5:03 PM

@JasperLoy Yep.

@JasperLoy How do you know?

user19161

@Mahnax Look on the users page. Filter by voters and then all time.

@JasperLoy Hm, okay.

user19161

Oh, Krishna has been suspended for a month.

dances

Hm, perhaps that is too mean.

user19161

@Mahnax No freehand circles.

5:08 PM

@JasperLoy What do you mean?

Aww.

user19161

@Mahnax Yah, you don't have to say yay for that.

Now what is Oracle to do??

@JasperLoy Oh, fine.

user19161

@Mahnax I thought that is an MSO joke you told me about?

5:08 PM

@JasperLoy No, you must use freehand circles.

user19161

@Cerberus You are Oracle?

If there aren't any, you say "-1, no freehand circles [are present]"

No, but read his profile.

Omitting the [are present].

I have to go, bye!

user19161

5:09 PM

@Mahnax Oh I see.

@JasperLoy Yes.

I need to go too, bye!

Q: What are the differences of these 4 sentences?

5:23 PM

4

From the grammatical point of view all are correct, just the meaning are different, please bring your clarification, thank you. 1- The Train will leave at 10:00 tomorrow morning. 2- The Train is going to leave at 10:00 tomorrow morning. 3- The Train leaves at 10:00 tomorrow morning. 4- The Tr...

grammar

I know we've covered this before. At least once.

Ah yes, here's one.

1

Q: Differences between ways to express future actions

Could you tell me the difference in meaning between these sentences? Do you think you will visit them next week? Will you visit them next week? Are you going to visit them next week? Are you visiting them next week? Are you going to be visiting them next week? Are you p...

differences future-tense present-tense

Found a couple more, left a comment.