English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

12:27 AM

@Reg: Picture too small to view on my phone. I'm in Chicago on biz so I'll have to wait till I have my laptop up and running.

Also, not really sure what you're asking.

tchrist

1:30 AM

@RegDwighт When most People text Messages in the German Language send, do they usually their Nouns capitalize? or do they just skip such things and run it all together like americans are wont to do and thus largely dispense with the customary rules of orthograffy and glamour?

Cerberus

@tchrist Hilarious.

Make that keep a prison, though.

tchrist

Think of it like the Tower of London: an innocuous name that neglects to inform you that it is both prison and gallows in one.

The Economist really is deliciously clever at times.

Cerberus

I suppose prisoners could be kept there...

But gallows are not needed.

It is more like Vance's Forlorn Encystment.

You will eventually pine away, staring at yourself in your narrow, lonely space.

tchrist

Until the changing of the head that bears the crown. Or the spell gets fumblefingered.

Cerberus

But we still have some time to go.

tchrist

1:39 AM

Cerberus

The crown has already changed heads. And yet it manages to lure in more gullibles.

Nice.

tchrist

The Game of Thrones article is here.

Cerberus

Is Facebook really attacking Amazon?

And winning?

To be honest neither website interests me that much.

They are easily replaceable.

tchrist

Neither website what, Facebook and Amazon?

Cerberus

That does not apply to the other two squid.

@tchrist Yes.

Mitch

1:41 AM

Facebook will be the operating system in 2020.

Cerberus

And the Facebook Phone will be the the phone of 2012?

tchrist

I gave you the direct link so you would not have to endure the ubiquitous lounging David that otherwise ornaments nearly ever page of theirs this week.

Mitch

Facebook glasses. Phones are for little kids.

tchrist

I have never even looked at Facebook, and it is not like Amazon is a hangout joint. I consider shopping an onerous chore, not a pleasure.

Please don’t take their “click to enlarge” directions too seriously.

Cerberus

I like what they've done with the throne.

Mitch

1:43 AM

Then you should wait for Groupon 'Mist'. It's like the cloud but you just 'are' in it.

tchrist

> The death last year of Steve Jobs, Apple’s monarch, robbed the technology world of the nearest thing that it had to royalty. But even before Jobs’s passing, tension was growing between the great powers of the web generation as the onset of mobile computing upset the previous balance of power.

Well, at least they believe in orthographic rectitude.

With respect to the apostrophe.

Mitch

and really, you should be buying their stuff. It's at a discount! and the more you buy the more you save!

Cerberus

@Mitch Haha wtf? I still don't know what Groupon is or what it should mean to me.

tchrist

But I wonder whether most people would actual say it that way.

It has to do with Groupies, I think.

Mitch

@Cerberus I think it has something to do with discounts, that's all.

Cerberus

1:44 AM

Discounts?

Could anything be more pathetic?

tchrist

Viscounts.

Cerberus

Sorry.

tchrist

Viscounts are even more pathetic than discounts.

Mitch

like you pay them $5 and you get $10 off something that's worth $30. So really, in the end you 'save' $5 (on something that was probably $10 over price anyway.

Cerberus

@tchrist Equally pathetic. He was more like an Agrippina.

@Mitch That is about what I would expect.

Mitch

1:46 AM

@tchrist Their children are lords and ladies. You can' say that about discounts.

Cerberus

Cheap shops don't have discounts.

Mitch

@Cerberus I don't really know.

tchrist

What, your billfold is not stuffed with cut-out coupons of every color and denomination? How can you drag yourself into a shop if you are that impoverished?

Mitch

@Cerberus They should. They'd get more business. Some advertisement that barely sticks in my mind says that at 'X everything is on sale!'

Cerberus

It sounds like something for people addicted to brands and unable to use Google to find cheap websites.

@tchrist I don't think coupon culture is as well developed here.

@Mitch But every website already has everything on "sale".

tchrist

1:48 AM

It is a lowerclass thing.

Cerberus

It has become completely meaningless.

tchrist

A struggling class thing.

The working poor.

Cerberus

More like middle class.

Mitch

@tchrist Discounts are like a desperate girl/boyfriend. Kind of a turn off. If they want you so bad, I'm probably better than them so I should level up to someone more my league, you know?

Cerberus

The poor already know where to get the really cheap stuff.

Mitch

1:48 AM

ha ha, I have to fix that!

tchrist

0

Q: What is the behavior where one closes their nose with their lips to elude foul odour called?

I have seen this question, and it is not exactly what I'm asking. Sometimes people (most especially in developing countries) raise the tip of their lips to cover their nose when a foul odour is sensed or to jeer a person. In my own language this is called 'isu imi' (To jam the nose), I'm writing ...

Cerberus

Besides, you can be upper class and poor.

tchrist

How in the world can you close your nose using your lips?

Mitch

'the somethety something of the lower upper middle class'. Orwell?

Cerberus

@Mitch It may work like that for some people...I for one am pathetic enough to feel "smart" when I get a (real) discount.

Mitch

1:49 AM

@tchrist holy crap, that is very limber.

Cerberus

@Mitch What?

Mitch

quiet desperation? some English self loathing thing.

rich, but not rich enough to afford good things.

tchrist

Maybe it is that African tripe with the super-distended lips.

That is so funny a typo I think I shall leave it.

Cerberus

If one can clarify butter, and stock, can one also clarify Mitches?

Do I need to press you against a filter too?

Mitch

@tchrist that sounds terrible in so many ways, 'African tripe'

Cerberus

1:51 AM

Hah.

I suppose that could be an effective comparison.

Mitch

@Cerberus it's what you cook your African tripe in, gives it that oily flavor

Cerberus

Yuck!

You tribe face!

Mitch

!!

you..you... African tripe lover!

Cerberus

Hmm what?

tchrist

Racist!

Cerberus

1:52 AM

I said tribe face!

Mitch

Non-vegetarian!

Cerberus

Hey I don't eat much meat. May I have at least half a credit?

tchrist

Callos a la madrileña

Los callos a la madrileña corresponden a uno de los platos más típicos del invierno madrileño. Se elabora principalmente con tripas de vaca que se ofrecen por regla general en las casquerías existentes cerca de las carnicerías de la capital madrileña. y jamón entreverado. Se considera un plato relativamente barato debido al bajo coste de sus ingredientes. Junto con el cocido madrileño es un plato identificativo de la gastronomía de Madrid. Historia Se desconoce el origen de este plato en la gastronomía madrileña, existen recetas del mismo que datan del año 1599 que en el libro Guzmán ...

Cerberus

I certainly refuse to eat tripe ever again in my life.

Mitch

Oh, no, I meant a lover of African tripe, not a tripe lover of African origin.

@Cerberus Take a whole credit. They're small

tchrist

1:54 AM

Those that say Europe ends at the Pyrenees would call that African tripe.

Mitch

@tchrist I've never heard that. Really? European history seems to end there.

Cerberus

@Mitch I thought you meant an African lover resembling tripe.

@Mitch Hmm thanks, I guess.

@tchrist Who says that?

It would have been patriotically appropriate in 1568.

tchrist

@Cerberus Is it a common refrain.

Cerberus

In which context? It rings a very faint bell.

Mitch

@Cerberus is that the last possible interpretation?

Cerberus

1:56 AM

Could be a knell, I don't know.

@Mitch Perhaps not.

tchrist

Here from Yahoo Answers.

►

Cerberus

Hmm.

But why did Louis Seize say that?

I suppose the Jesuits were, and are, bothersome.

And the Spanish Inquisition.

But for Louis XVI to say so, oh la la.

tchrist

There are a lot of hits if you Google up Europe ends at the Pyrenees.

ChairOTP

Hello

tchrist

> Three French men, Louis XVI, Napoleon Bonaparte and Alexandre Dumas, are credited with declaring that ‘Europe ends at the Pyrenees’, or alternatively, that ‘Africa begins at the Pyrenees’. What these wicked, wicked men suggested was that the Iberian peninsula, comprising Spain and Portugal, shared more with Africa, northern Africa at any rate, than it did with Europe.

They’ve gone and forgotten Andorra again.

And Gibraltar, but well, that doesn’t quite count.

That is an image from the place I found the quote above.

It’s half cute.

Cerberus

2:05 AM

Heh.

Italy should have a fluctuating bar.

I don't understand Portugal.

Mitch

I thought Egypt just made itself another one.

Cerberus

It is sort of in the process.

Mitch

@ChairOTP questions?

tchrist

@Cerberus No, neither do I. But I feel sorry for them; I have friends there.

Cerberus

What problem is there in Portugal?

tchrist

2:08 AM

@Mitch It certainly does not look encouraging.

ChairOTP

@Mitch Yes, last time I came, I was wondering if "write it right" was correct. I got my answer, it was correct. Yet I'm wondering if I were to say "...when you don't even write right" is correct.

Mitch

@Cerberus Come on. It's not like it's (some other disparaged country).

Cerberus

@Mitch I don't get it.

Mitch

@ChairOTP What's your complete sentence?

tchrist

What problem? The economy, for one.

The quote is from here.

It is in English.

Cerberus

2:10 AM

What does that have to do with dictators?

tchrist

> The sins on this list are rather long. They will agree that Portugal is not marked by a meritocracy. If you don’t come with the right name and the right background, moving forward could be substantially difficult for you. Add to this the political graft that marks the country’s operation. Business interests and political leadership are shamelessly twined, official power used to further private interests.

ChairOTP

@Mitch "How can you speak about proper grammar when you don't even write right".

tchrist

But at least they have elections now.

Mitch

@Cerberus I'm being silly. Portugal isn't as bad as a lot of countries.

tchrist

No more Salazar dictatorship.

Cerberus

2:11 AM

Uhh...

Mitch

@ChairOTP Perfectly grammatical.

Cerberus

@tchrist How is this a dictatorship?

tchrist

Whence all this attention to glamour?

Mitch

style wise the rhyme is weird and I would substitute 'correctly' for 'right'.

@tchrist when did he leave?

tchrist

@Cerberus They are overstating things, saying that the good-old-boy-club attitude makes for poor governance.

ChairOTP

2:13 AM

@Mitch Thank you.

Mitch

@tchrist glamour nazi? Joan Rivers?

tchrist

They seemed to have a lot of people marching in the streets, if the article is to believed, and I suspect it can be independently confirmed.

ChairOTP

Also, I was wondering what does "outside word" mean?

Mitch

@tchrist so they're more open about their corruption.

tchrist

But there is trouble everywhere.

@Mitch The northern Europeans would like to blame all of the PIGSes’ problems on corruption, but it is more than that.

Mitch

2:14 AM

@ChairOTP Full sentence! (otherwise it would mean exactly what it says, a word outside of something)

@tchrist it's not like they don't have corruption either.

ChairOTP

@Mitch Would you give me an outside word, please?

Mitch

(but that's cynical, the corrupt people up north are mor likely to be punished for it)

tchrist

I have trouble envisioning Scandinavia as a hotbed of corruption.

I have no problem doing so of Sicily.

It is probably just cultural stereotypes. I hope.

Mitch

@ChairOTP OK. That doesn't mean much to me. I don't know how a word could be 'outside'.

tchrist

“Write right” is fine. How else might you say it?

ChairOTP

2:16 AM

@Mitch I thought it could be like asking "A word, please?"

tchrist

Write well?

Mitch

Maybe it's a game show and they're asking about a word, and some words are for inside a house and some are for outside and you're supposed to chose an 'outside word', like 'lawn mower' (not something you have inside)

ChairOTP

@tchrist write correctly was suggested.

Mitch

@tchrist theirs is a very reserved corruption.

tchrist

@Mitch I see you know the meaning of casuistry.

Mitch

2:17 AM

kinda like african tripe.

ChairOTP

@Mitch It's from Wagon Train, I think.

Mitch

which reminds me I need to reserve some.

@tchrist !!

actually, no, I do not.

Robusto

Hey, wtf peoples.

Mitch

if it's like sophistry, then maybe so.

if peoples is the plural of people, what is the singular of person?

tchrist

@Mitch If the Madrileñan tripe doesn’t turn you on all by itself, you should know that it is often served with blood sausage stewed into it.

Mitch

2:19 AM

@tchrist holy crap (that's the least mincing I can do), I was sorta right. kinda like blind sight for vocab.

tchrist

@Mitch Parson.

ChairOTP

@Mitch Peoples actually exists?

tchrist

Least mincing?

Mitch

@tchrist you know, if I don't know where it came from, I probably wouldn't notice.

tchrist

“All the peoples of the world”

Mince meat.

Mitch

2:20 AM

unless it is say 'variety' meat. I can tell that a mile away. from the ..ewwww.. odor.

Robusto

Mystery mince meat.

ChairOTP

Well I thought 'people' was already a plural.

tchrist

@ChairOTP c. pl. peoples, nations, races (= L. populi, gentes).

@ChairOTP It is.

That doesn’t mean we can’t pluralize it some more! :)

Mitch

@tchrist from shit to crap. crap isn't terribly vulgar, but it is not the politest of word.

Robusto

A better question is, what is the singular of plural? Mind = assploded!

Cerberus

2:22 AM

Variety meat?

ChairOTP

Isn't plural singular?

Cerberus

That sounds...awful.

tchrist

Rain drop is the singular of pleural.

Mitch

@ChairOTP It is. It is the correct plural. Robusto is being... hip to the jive (using clever word play)

Robusto

If you do that too much you create a singularity, which is a much different creature from a plurality.

Cerberus

2:22 AM

It's more like Vitaly.

ChairOTP

Spending a day with you guys might drive some people nuts.

tchrist

C. 1374 Chaucer Former Age 2 ― A Blysful lyf,··Ledden the poeples in the former age.
1778 Bp. Lowth Transl. Isa. xxxiv. 1 ― Draw near, O ye nations, and hearken; And attend to me, O ye peoples!
1806 W. Taylor in Ann. Rev. IV. 218 ― The moral habits of the several peoples of the earth
1864 H. Spencer Princ. Biol. ii. viii. §80 I. 241 ― The characters of neighbouring peoples.
1877 Morley Crit. Misc. Ser. ii. 345 ― All our English-speaking peoples.
1973 K. A. Kitchen in D. J. Wiseman Peoples Old Testament Times iii. 57 ― The Lukka··appear as raiders in the Amarna letters c. 1370 b.c., as Hitti…

Robusto

I am not like Vitaly at all.

tchrist

Nutser.

Robusto

0

Q: What is the behavior where one closes their nose with their lips to elude foul odour called?

I have seen this question, and it is not exactly what I'm asking. Sometimes people (most especially in developing countries) raise the tip of their lips to cover their nose when a foul odour is sensed or to jeer a person. In my own language this is called 'isu imi' (To jam the nose), I'm writing ...

word-choice expressions expression-choice

ChairOTP

2:24 AM

But is it still used?

Robusto

Seriously, what kind of lips do you need to be able to kiss your own nose?

tchrist

@ChairOTP Yea, verily.

@Robusto We have been through that already. African. Distended.

I think it would invite getting punched in the face.

ChairOTP

@tchrist Oh ok, thank you!

tchrist

If you of one people, and your wife of another people altogether, then in your children are mingled the blood of two different peoples.

And two different people, actually.

Sorry about that.

Peoples means nations, or races.

> This plural form was avoided in 16th c. Bible versions, and by many 17th and 18th c. writers: see d. It was thought to require defence or explanation even in 1817 and 1830.

ChairOTP

@tchrist I'll keep that in mind.

Mitch

2:27 AM

@tchrist alveolar

tchrist

You can talk about gente; can you not talk about gentes? I think you can.

Mitch

@Cerberus exactly. that is mincing a vulgarity.

ChairOTP

@Robusto is it even possible?

tchrist

> 29 Las gentes de la tierra han hecho violencia y cometido robo, han oprimido al pobre y al necesitado y han maltratado injustamente al extranjero. 30 Busqué entre ellos alguno que levantara un muro y se pusiera en pie en la brecha delante de mí a favor de la tierra, para que yo no la destruyera, pero no lo hallé.

Ezequiel 22:29-30

ChairOTP

@tchrist You can, but it's not used commonly.

tchrist

2:28 AM

Same here.

Mitch

@tchrist that's incorrecter than the other one.

@tchrist I think you get that superpower by being punched in the face. and having a rubber face.

tchrist

I would say that the meaning maps exactly, and possibly also the relative frequency. It is unusual.

At least in Spanish, gente is singular, while in English, people is plural.

So that part is different.

¿Qué dice la gente?

¿Qué dice la gente? is a Spanish-language game show produced in the United States, based on Family Feud that aired on Telefutura. It was itself the American version of Mexican game show, 100 mexicanos dijeron. It was hosted by Marco Antonio Regil from 2006-2008 until Omar Chaparro took over for the last nine weeks and was filmed in Miami. Jackie Vilarino and Contestant Brenda Lowe both served as co-hosts for the show's run. The show premiered on June 12, 2006 and ended on November 14, 2008. Game format The game is played by two families of five members. They are posed survey-style ques...

Mitch

But to bring it back to the topic at hand, in Portuguese what is it? Also 'gentes'?

tchrist

I must away.

Mitch

later

ChairOTP

2:35 AM

@tchrist But if you were to pluralize "gente", you'd say "personas". In English you'd just say "people" I assume.

Even when gente already means personas.

Mitch

in English, person/people (the one weird example of a plural of different root than the singular)

ChairOTP

Like mouse/mice?

Mitch

2:50 AM

If you look it up, those are the same root, just the vowel changed.

MετάEd

3:34 AM

@tchrist Maybe a better translation would be the populace? At least I think that's singular.

cornbread ninja

3:52 AM

I wonder how @Mahnax's shift is going.

tchrist

4:38 AM

@MετάEd Translation of what?

MετάEd

@tchrist "gente"

tchrist

No.

Wrong register.

Too fancy a word.

MετάEd

"folk"

tchrist

Populace is more like población.

Gente is just plain people.

It’s the normal word.

MετάEd

The folk.

tchrist

4:39 AM

I say people more than I say folk.

MετάEd

Just plain folk.

Sure. But it's plural.

tchrist

Yes, and?

MετάEd

So is folk. But I think populace isn't.

tchrist

Those people = esa gente.

Notice it becomes singular.

MετάEd

"this people". I kind of like it though.

tchrist

4:40 AM

It is the right translation. It is the normal word people use for that very thing.

What is this people?

That’s esta gente.

Spanish has three degrees of locative.

Well, demonstrative.

Next to me = esto. Next to thee = eso. Next to neither of us = aquello.

MετάEd

One of us is not holding up his end of this conversation, and as late as it is I have got to assume that it is me.

tchrist

Esta gente está cerca de mí. Esa gente está cerca de ti. Aquella gente no está en al mismo continente con nosotros.

I am a morning person.

Way past bedders.

MετάEd

"that people", "this people".

"the other people".

tchrist

= esa gente, esta genta

la otra gente

But it’s these people in English.

You cannot translate gente into a singular thing and have it make any sense at all.

There is no problem with switching number in translation. You have to do this all the time.

MετάEd

I like the sound of "this people", "that people". If you are referring to the peoples of a region, I think you could get away with it.

tchrist

4:45 AM

races, yes.

MετάEd

Yes. Submarine people.

tchrist

Si se habla de la Raza, pues sí.

Note the cap. It is some sort of political statement. :)

Times up. . . .

►

BINGO!!!

Did I like nail it, or what?

Meanwhile, the Old Beatle has been caught out for having given his age as 82, so SE has told him he is too old to emigrate. :)

That’ll show ’em!

MετάEd

@tchrist Did you?

tchrist

I called the “time’s up” quote that is being spoken at the frozen frame above. And I did not know in advance that that would be the frame they’d use.

MετάEd

5:01 AM

Separated at birth?

tchrist

I’ve never heard of digitally conjoined twins before.

Mahnax

@cornbreadninja Relatively well, I'd say.

MετάEd

Chemise

The term chemise or shift can refer to the classic smock, or else can refer to certain modern types of women's undergarments and dresses. In the classical usage it is a simple garment worn next to the skin to protect clothing from sweat and body oils, the precursor to the modern shirts commonly worn in Western nations. Etymology Chemise is a French term (which today simply means shirt). This is a cognate of the Italian word camicia, and the Spanish / Portuguese language word camisa (subsequently borrowed as kameez by Hindi / Urdu / Hindustani), all deriving ultimately from the Latin cami...

David Wallace

6:14 AM

Hey, @Mahnax, how was the first day of work? Or are you still there?

Mahnax

@DavidWallace Oh, I've been home for awhile.

It was informative, and good, but not very exciting.

David Wallace

Were you expecting otherwise?

Mahnax

Nope.

David Wallace

But it pays the bills, right? Or you don't have bills yet.

Mahnax

I had to go over a few videos about the company and stuff.

No, I don't have bills yet, fortunately.

I suppose I have a cell phone bill, but that's cheap.

David Wallace

6:18 AM

Has you school finished for the year?

Mahnax

Er, no.

David Wallace

I wonder how you find the energy for everything you fit into your life.

Mahnax

I manage :-)

NaNoWriMo is done now, so I don't have to worry about that.

David Wallace

Hah! I had a drive-by downvote on Noah's bounty question.

Mahnax

But you may notice that I am not particularly active on EL&U.

David Wallace

6:21 AM

I don't notice, because I no longer have an account on EL&U.

Mahnax

Oh, that's right.

I haven't posted an answer since August.

David Wallace

You were just waiting for the right question, I guess.

Mahnax

Uh, sure. We'll go with that.

David Wallace

You haven't stayed out of the chat room though; and nor have I.

Mahnax

Well, I can usually accomplish other things while I'm here.

David Wallace

6:25 AM

Hah, I can't. This chat room sucks my life force.

Mahnax

Hehe.

David Wallace

Are you working tomorrow?

Mahnax

Yes.

And Wednesday and Thursday, too.

They want to get my training done quickly.

David Wallace

You'll be an expert in no time.

Mahnax

I hope so!

David Wallace

6:28 AM

When I was your age, I worked in a dairy. Most of my job seemed to involve scooping ice creams.

Then I worked in a nasty little hamburger stand for a while.

Then McDonald's for a couple of years.

I can't decide which of the three was worst.

Mahnax

Those don't sound like very pleasant jobs.

My first job was pretty awful.

David Wallace

I had one that was even worse at one point - stocking shelves in a supermarket at night. I hated it.

Mahnax

Oh, what didn't you like about that?

No sleep?

David Wallace

Oh, I dealt with the no sleep just fine. At the same time, I had a job handing out tourist brochures to people getting on the 8am ferry to Picton (which is kind of in the north-east corner of the South Island). It suited me to stay up all night every night and sleep during the day.

Mahnax

Huh, interesting.

I take it you weren't in school at that point?

David Wallace

6:33 AM

I guess it was just that the manager at the supermarket was a slave driver.

Umm, I think it was the summer holidays. Our university year finishes in about October or November, and restarts at the beginning of March.

Mahnax

Oh, I see.

Our break is July and August.

Well, uni students get June too, I think.

David Wallace

This was always a problem for me, because during the academic year, I used to make lots of money by tutoring people; but nobody is interested during the holidays.

Mahnax

Hrrm.

David Wallace

I also made the mistake of leaving home after my first year of university. I seriously recommend to anyone in their late teens or early 20s; stay with your parents as long as you can possibly tolerate it.

I often wonder how my life would have been different if I had spent my time at university actually concentrating on my studies, rather than worrying about how to make money. My parents didn't support me at all at that time.

user19161

9:43 AM

Wake up everyone...

David Wallace

I was actually just thinking of going to sleep.