English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

@MετάEd Neither do unicorns.

MετάEd

3:10 AM

@DavidWallace Indeed so.

@tchrist Hmm why?

3:47 AM

I am going to buy a public address system, such as they use in football stadiums, place the speakers outside my neighbours' front door, and play the Dies Irae from Mozart's Requiem continuously, 24 x 7 until they get the f***king hint and learn some f***king consideration.

Haha, as soon as I typed that, they turned the volume down. @Cerberus, are you my neighbour's sock puppet?

@DavidWallace Oops.

I didn't hear your thumping the ceiling as I was swearing at my children.

Right. Now if you could just do something about the elephants ...

I can see I'm going to have to move out of here.

Wow! I just insulted someone on another website, and he was nice about it.

4:09 AM

Hey everyone. I've got some confused among English words. May anyone distinct them for me?

I shall try. Go ahead.

Which different between relevant document and related document ?

Very little. A document might be relevant to the topic that you are discussing. Or it might be related to some other document that you're looking at.

Are you trying to choose which to use, in a particular context?

@DavidWallace I'll poach them.

Maybe that's what the cooking show that Tom wanted to share with you was about.

4:13 AM

Not yet, I am reading a book and just think that I cannot discern those words and ...

If you can give me an example, I shall try to clarify why it is what it is.

@PeterPAD A relevant book means a book that is important for your purpose.

A related book is a book that has something in common with a situation or text.

Related is the opposite of very different.

Some times, I am confused to use these words in life due to I'm not native.

@Cerberus No. I am very different from my sister. I am also related to her.

Relevant is the opposite of useless in this situation.

4:17 AM

@Cerberus What?

@DavidWallace You are unnecessarily complicating things. This is about books.

I'm trying to give him a simple feel for how they words differ.

But related is NOT the opposite of very different, whether we are talking about documents, books, sisters or vegetables.

Does "relate" relate to "connect" ?

Yes, sort of.

You meant the same?

4:19 AM

@DavidWallace I disagree. A related book has part of its subject matter in common with some other text. An unrelated book is just different, it has little in common.

@PeterPAD Relate and connect can be somewhat similar in some situations. But a word only gets its full meaning from its context.

A word without context is half-meaningless.

A biography of A A Milne is a very different book from "In Which Kanga and Baby Roo Come To The Forest". And yet the two are undoubtedly related.

And yet they are in other not very different.

Thus, Is studying vocabulary in context good choice for non-native English like me?

@DavidWallace Stop introducing unnecessary complications! I cannot cover all possible situations in a simplified, single line.

@PeterPAD Yes.

4:22 AM

@PeterPAD Yes, studying context while learning vocabulary will probably improve your understanding.

And yes, "related" is roughly the same as "connected". And "relevant" is roughly the same as "useful", as Cerberus almost said earlier.

@Cerberus I've got it. Thanks

Yay!

Is Yay! similiar to Yup or Yes?

No.

4:23 AM

It is an exclamation of joy!

It means "I am happy!"

Or hpapy, yes.

I've got it

Good!

Hey, how come your comment is above mine, when it was a response to mine?

4:24 AM

Line order is sometimes inconsistent.

What happens when you refresh? Because it is in the correct order on my computer.

Me, too

Ooh, yes, me too now.

Yay!

Yay indeed.

I realized that, When I read I know a lot of words, but I cannot use it

Notice that we are exaggerating. Normally one would not say "yay!" at such small things.

4:26 AM

Lots of practice, Peter, is what you require.

Thus, I'm the worst in writing

You know, I'm self-learning. Thus, No one correct it for me

Yes, passive knowledge is always much larger than active knowledge (that's what reading and writing are, active and passive).

And yet lots of reading helps.

Especially well-written texts.

You mean reading is passive knowledge and other is active ?

Any word must enter one's passive vocabulary before it enters one's active vocabulary.

Reading is passive (the text enters your brain) and you use passive knowledge of the language while reading.

4:28 AM

I see

When you write, the text escapes from your brain and lands on a piece of paper.

You create the text, and creation is active.

Oh, this is the 538th time they've played this particular piece of assonance today.

And "thing" does NOT rhyme with "bang".

Good evening.

Whoops, clearly I meant "dissonance", but it's too late to edit.

slays elder elephants

Evening!

Spending on lobbying in Washington.

4:32 AM

@Cerberus Thank you. Oddly, that seems to have worked.

I know.

Anyone care for some freshly poached ivory?

And there seems to be an F word every 10 seconds or so. They want their children to listen to this?

You know what's yummy? Espresso. shakes

Are you going to turn into a coffee addict?

Nah…

4:35 AM

@DavidWallace It's just a word. The children will use it too, but it won't kill them.

I like the smell of coffee.

Oh yippee. They're playing it again.

Q: Does "Smugness" imply "Having or showing low opinions of others"?

1

I have a little confusion whether "smugness" implies a "low opinion of others" in contrast to a "high opinion of oneself" I have consulted ODO and wiktionary; they showed the meaning of "Smugness" is Smugness(noun)[ODO]: having or showing an excessive pride in oneself or one's achievements ...

What to do about this?

This guy is clearly reading texts of a low quality without realising it.

What is ODO?

These people are driving me insane. What am I to do?

@Cerberus He also asks a new Meta question every time something is closed

@DavidWallace Oxford Dictionary Online, possibly?

4:42 AM

Oh, OK.

The problem with that question is, if you ask me, that the example you quote is from a non-standard or low-quality text. It is rife with what I would call mistakes. Perhaps those mistakes are acceptable features of English spoken in India, but not in the Anglo-Saxon world, nor in other countries where people learn Anglo-Saxon English, if I may call it that. If you want to learn standard English, I advise you to make sure you don't pick up non-standard grammar from texts like that one. Read texts written in standard English (and by a skilled writer: many websites are poorly written). — Cerberus 51 secs ago

@simchona Yeah, so I noticed. I'm actually not sure why this question should be closed?

@Cerberus I'm not going to touch it. Y'all can take it.

@simchona I share your...distaste.

Ugh, I want it gone, but I don't know if it should actually be closed or not.

Who upvotes this stuff?!

Somebody should simply explain to him that no clear distinction is made between "high opinion of oneself" and "low opinion of others", since the two usually (or nearly always) coincide.

4:46 AM

I just don't think that posting on Meta every time some little thing goes wrong is the best idea. The answer is nearly always "show your research"

I honestly can't wait for ELL to start up.

@Mahnax Amen to that.

83% commitment… getting there!

It would be nice if it has the desired effect, but I don't hold out much hope.

@simchona Well, in this case, he does show some research? What more could he do?

@Mahnax It will start by the end of January.

4:47 AM

@DavidWallace Oh, I recall you not wanting ELL to happen, is that right?

@Cerberus The issue is he thinks all his questions shouldn't be closed

Even when it's really, really localized.

@simchona But then who doesn't?

@Mahnax I've stopped caring very much.

@DavidWallace I see.

@DavidWallace The effect will be that this question can be migrated thither.

4:48 AM

I think it could mean the death of ELU. But since I no longer have an account on ELU, that wouldn't affect me too much.

@Cerberus I get pinged whenever there's a new Meta question.

I understand.

You are not obliged to respond if you don't feel you can help him.

Or if you don't feel like it.

@simchona: I believe I am showing the research my best. Do you think is there much to show here? If yes can you please explain what else that we can show in the given case. I am very happy to show that in my future posts. — Ramya 30 secs ago

I have to agree with him or her: there is no lack of research in this particular question.

Simply a lack of understanding…

A: Does "Smugness" imply "Having or showing low opinions of others"?

I don't know.

1

So my perticular question is, is the usage valid? Can adjectives like this be used in contrasting situations also? Yes, we do that from time-to-time, particularly in conversation. In other-side-of-the-coin contexts, words are often used in ways that don't fit their precise definitions. For ...

JR's answer is OK.

He probably addresses the question and answers it too.

The question lacks structure.

I think JR's answer is good.

4:53 AM

And it uses examples from Indian English.

Oops, question, I meant question.

A sure sign of a bad question is that it's impossible to provide a good answer. And yet, here is a good answer. I would prefer for this question to stay.

I agree.

I don't think it's a sin to read a text of a low quality, and then have questions about it.

Huh wtf.

That user's name changed into Babu.

And he has been suspended.

So he was a sock puppet after all?

That is...convenient for us all.

Is Babu a bad user?

4:56 AM

Excellent.

I thought it wasn't a crime to use sock puppets, so long as you don't interact with yourself?

Q: Shouldn't evolutionists use the term "evolutionism" instead of "evolution"?

It says "voting irregularities".

Therefore a crime has been committed.

0

Observing the debate between evolutionists and creationists, I've noticed that the evolutionists refer to their theory as "evolution" not "evolutionism," whereas they refer to the creationists' theory as "creationism" not "creation." Why the discrepancy? In addition to the grammatical considera...

suffixes

I'm glad that this one is closed though.

Yuck.

That's an excellent question. Why is it closed?

Did you look over the comments?

Doesn't mean I agree with any of them.

Besides, evolution is just about the best-tested scientific theory that there is. It doesn't require any sort of "ism" to believe it.

5:03 AM

Evolutionism is a valid term for those that want to use it.

@DavidWallace Do you mind if I ask about evolution and Islam?

You may ask. I'm not sure that I know all the answers.

But generally speaking, Muslims believe in evolution. Is that OK?

That will do, thank you. I was just curious.

Umm, we also believe in Adam and Eve. I'm unsure of the resolution between these two apparently conflicting points.

Oh.

Interesting.

I can think of two possible resolutions, but I don't know if either of them is the accepted view. I could ask someone, but it's not particularly important to me.

But if YOU want to know, I will ask someone.

Q: Is evolution compatible with Islam?

5:07 AM

I'll ask on Islam.SE after I've researched it for a bit.

Oh, never mind.

25

Is the theory of evolution, and specifically, theistic evolution, compatible with Islam? That is to say, is there any official doctrine in Islam (or if not agreed upon in Islam as a whole, in a specific sect or area of Islam) that teaches that evolution is expressly wrong?

creation evolution

There is a question on Islam.SE about it.

Oh, Jinx!

Right, you found my little fight, there in the comments.

You were rather in the right there.

Thank you.

Evolution in the sense of Darwinism is neither compatible with Islam nor with science. I strongly suggest you read the documentary movie named "Expelled". It is highly criticized but you must see the movie before judging the two sides. — owari Dec 23 at 18:29

"Nor with science"?

Harrumph.

Owari's answers and comments are sometimes a little extreme.

5:12 AM

I see.

Now that Ahmadi has been suspended, and Gigili and Meysam have both lost interest, Owari is probably the most vocal of the Shi'a minority, on Islam.SE.

Is Shi'a more common in Iran?

Yes.

Iran is kind of the centre of Shi'ism.

Indeed.

There are other countries where it is popular, such as Azerbaijan and Tajikistan.

Umm, so I'm not sure if that question really answered your question about Adam and Eve?

5:18 AM

It didn't need to. It's just as ambiguous as I knew it would be.

That's alright though.

Do you want to know what I believe? Fully accepting that I may be completely wrong?

I'm going to go get some food, I'll be back in a few minutes.

@DavidWallace Sure, I'd like to hear it.

user19161

@DavidWallace Yes.

If you don't want to state it here you can e-mail me.

user19161

I believe that Mahnax is a good boy.

user19161

5:22 AM

@Mahnax How many hats do you have?

OK, I believe that evolution is true, but that Adam and Eve were created in Paradise. The Islamic version of the story with the apple is true. God expelling them from Paradise meant expelling them from the bodies they had there, and moving their souls into hominid bodies, which had evolved from apes and from which we are all descended.

user19161

Wow, I need some time to parse that.

But I would welcome it if some other Muslim could come along and correct me here.

I am absolutely not qualified to give my own interpretations of what I read in the Qur'an. So take the above with a grain of salt. It's only my personal belief as at today.

@DavidWallace Interesting.

Thank you for sharing that.

@DavidWallace Oh that's funny. Talk about a deus ex machina!

5:35 AM

If anyone is interested in the Qur'an version of the Adam and Eve story, it is at 7:19-25.

Scroll down on quran.com/7 - the checkboxes on the left control which language(s) and which interpretation(s) to display.

How is an interpretation de facto different from a translation?

The Qur'an consists of beautiful poetry, but often leaves bits unsaid. Much of it is extremely difficult to translate literally into any language.

Yes.

If you TRY, you end up having to think about what it means, and adding your own interpretation thereto.

As with every translation.

5:40 AM

OK, but referring to it as an "interpretation" makes this a bit clearer. More to the point, once it has been interpreted, it is no longer the literal word of God, but a collaboration between God and the interpreter.

If we called it a "translation", we'd be suggesting that it's still the word of God. It would never be obvious that it's not a literal translation, because the poetic nature of the Qur'an would have been lost.

Okay.

Every translation is necessarily an interpretation, so it shouldn't really be an issue, but I understand what you mean.

Some people are more, err, religious about this distinction than others.

Hah.

So they are.

I have no objection to calling my English version of The Qur'an a "translation", other than the fact that I know there are people who would find it offensive if I did so.

But this is the reason why every Muslim should try to learn Arabic.

It's always great to read a text in the original language.

Bits always get lost in translation.

5:44 AM

In the case of The Qur'an, it's more often that bits get added.

Or so it seems to me.

That, too.

A translation is normally longer than the original.

The Qur'an is very succinct with its language. That is part of its poetry, really. So, I would certainly expect that any interpretation of it would be considerably longer than the original.

Yes.

Just try going to that site that I linked to, and comparing the Arabic with any of the available languages / interpretations.

The two are hard to compare.

How does one measure length?

6:02 AM

Well, the Arabic is in a huge font. So it's always shorter, right?

So you count in cm?

No, that would make the Arabic about the same size. If you count in letters though ...

Even count one for each vowel in the tashkeel if you like.

But why pick letters?

Why not something else, like words? Sounds?

Syllables?

It wouldn't make too much difference.

Perhaps not.

6:10 AM

Have a look. You can see how much longer the English (or Dutch) is than the Arabic, for each ayah (verse).

I have to go. See you tomorrow maybe.

Q: Easy to read exciting books for ordinary (Indonesian) people?

Bai!

Tom

8:55 AM

Hey there, maybe someone can help me out.

I have an Indonesian friend, he's 23 years old and on his way to learn conversational English.

I told him that he needs to start reading books, but he's an ordinary Indonesian guy (they do not read books), so he's not convinced.

Maybe there is an easy to read, thin book that's exciting enough to keep someone like him entertained?

Currently he speaks like so:
"you are so kinds"
"could you help me and friend to practice about english on tusday?"
"what time will you free?"
"what place will you like?"
"we will go to swim, are you agree?"
"I'm less busy but layer I will join but I will late"
"yes I will wait you"

Hope that describes his level of English roughly.

I will convert this into a question.

0

I have an Indonesian friend, he's 23 years old and on his way to learn conversational English. I told him that he needs to start reading books, but he's an ordinary Indonesian guy (they do not read books), so he's not convinced. Maybe there is an easy to read, thin book that's exciting enough t...

learning books

Tom

9:31 AM

Thank you @simchona. Please consider putting a comment up elaborating on your decision to close a question in the future.

Alenanno

11:58 AM

@waiwai933 There? There is a question that might get migrated over EL&U, but it might need fixing (apparently no research effort).

1:17 PM

@Tom This is fine to ask here in chat, but it isn't appropriate for the main site.

Try asking here again after the holidays.

We don't do discussions or open-ended questions on the main site, and your question there isn't about English language either, so it is really not suitable.

@Reg!

Yeah.

Gah some people are annoying.

LEGO help!

Oh, that.

Bring it on.

So I wanted to order some individual parts, and I'm feeling stupid.

Happens. What you using, BrickLink?

1:22 PM

Can I make a list somewhere? Or do I have to do this one part at a time?

@RegDwighт Trying to, yes.

So you have a BrickLink account?

Trying to, yes.

Well I mean have you registered with your mail and all?

And logged in?

I just finally got it to work. Just now.

So yes.

Okay. So there's a tab named "Wanted".

That's your wishlist.

1:23 PM

Oh. OH!

You can add stuff to it from the individual part's pages, or by using XML import and stuff.

That makes sense. So I can add parts there, and then use that when I go to buy stuff?

E.g., you can go to Rebrickable right now, then click on, oh I dunno, my sheep, and it will tell you which parts you are still missing. You can then click on the link "add to BrickLink wish list", and a popup will show you some XML you can copypaste.

Yay!

I mean, you know, if that's what I was going to do.

Which I might.

Just now.

But...so I had another question.

@KitFox yes. And you can do more. You can, for example, create several wish lists (though I never did that), or click on the "By Shop" subtab, and it will show you which shops have the most parts from your list.

1:26 PM

Let's say I spent a couple of hours yesterday sorting through my mother-in-law's box of LEGO because I remembered that I helped my nephew put Anakin's starfighter together several years ago.

You can also, on the wish list itself, set stuff such as max price, or min quantity, and then it will take that into account. You can also tell it to email you as soon as a part is available that suits these criteria.

@KitFox okay.

So naturally, I started thinking that I really ought to sort these LEGO and leave them sorted so I didn't have to do this kind of crazy thing again.

Of course.

But I don't want to be some crazy brick addict, mind you.

@KitFox if you struggle with SQL TravisJ in the C# room is pretty good I think, he also is a super nice guy. He is American so joins later

1:29 PM

@JohanLarsson splutters I do not struggle! I am very good at SQL. Except just sometimes.

@JohanLarsson But thank you, because I know you meant that to be helpful.

ok sry, not meant as an insult :)

So @Reg, what is the most sensible way to sort a smallish collection?

Bah, when I banned that guy I wanted to have a month of peace and sunshine, not a month of ceaseless pestering.

@KitFox smallish? By shape only.

That's how I started.

2x4 bricks to 2x4 bricks, 1x6 plates to 1x6 plates.

Smallish like 5 gallon bucket.

Two classic failure modes when chatting
1) Making a joke and have to explain it was a joke
2) Try to help and offend someone by doing it :)
I do both all the time

1:31 PM

I'm trying to think of a metric equivalent.

tries to remember how much a gallon was

I think like 3 comma something liters.

Have you ever done drywall?

That is a very private question.

Haha.

Okay stop confusing me even further.

1:32 PM

It's the size of a bucket of mud.

Never mind.

It's a large plastic bin size.

15 liters let's say. That's not much especially if the pieces are just laying around. If you connect them, you'll be down to like one gallon.

Yeah, probably.

They also won't scratch anywhere as much.

They are in an under-bed box to make it easier for the kids to look through them.

Most of them are from my husband was a kid.

Google unit calculator

1:34 PM

There are several broken pieces.

@JohanLarsson nah, I just type into Google proper.

Can I look up kits by piece?

I also use it as a calculator.

I have a few molded shapes that look like castle pieces, and I'm wondering what set they came from.

@RegDwighт I think Google proper is the calculator, that textbox is a swizz army knife of functionality

1:35 PM

I suppose the point is to be creative, but still.

@KitFox yes, e.g. on BrickLink (Catalog -> Parts -> etc) or on Rebrickable. Both allow you to see exactly in which sets a given part in a given color was included.

@JohanLarsson I just finally replaced my Swiss army knife yesterday.

@RegDwighт Nice. Thanks. Now to figure out how to look up what part it is.

@KitFox Well the thing with kids is, you can sort your stuff every which way, as soon as you're finished counting to three they'll be lying around unsorted again. In your driveway.

@KitFox You replaced Google? Is that possible? I rate Google a greater than all of the seven wonders combined

@KitFox that's the trickiest part.

1:37 PM

@RegDwighт Oh my kids are well-versed with Mommy's neuroticism about sorting things.

Okay so it will be lying in the bushes, not the driveway.

@JohanLarsson Haha. No, I mean my Swiss army knife was stolen about six years ago and I finally got a new one.

@RegDwighт Down the furnace vent. Worse yet, my husband will sweep it up and toss it.

I should go have a cup of coffee and play with my children now though. We got a Wii and a blizzard for Christmas.

@KitFox so anyway, one possibility is to just look at the size of the thing and search for that. There are not that many pieces that are 6x8x4, or what have you.

@RegDwighт Oh right! It seems there aren't that many castle kits either.

So that shouldn't be too hard.

You'd be surprised.

It's one of the three-odd themes that have always be around and immensely popular.

1:40 PM

There are only 319 listed on BrickLink.

I used to have a bunch. I miss them.

bricklink.com/catalogList.asp?catType=P&catString=91

Here are some panels.

I think they are still in my mother's attic, but since I don't talk to her, I'll have to wait until she's dead to look.

Etc.

Robusto

TIL Ernest Meissonier was the most famous, highest-paid painter in Paris immediately prior to and during the Impressionist revolution.

He painted in the classicist style.

Class dismissed.

I didn't see it there. I have some black crenelations and two large panels that look like they fit together to form a chamber. Probably the design hinged them with the crenelation at the top.

I'll look. I'll be back regularly after the New Year, but please ping me or email me if you're getting swamped, and I'll jump in.

Thanks for the help!

Later.

1:45 PM

I know the crenelations. No idea what category they're in.

10 hours ago, by Cerberus

I didn't hear your thumping the ceiling as I was swearing at my children.

I starred that ^ for the sole reason that it looks so wtf without context