In mouse mode, I use chords to navigate.

What are those? Gestures?

Kinda.

OK.

That's good.

You hold down the right button, and then click the left one to go left.

That is, to go back a page.

And vice versa to go forward.

Ah, rocker "gestures".

Is that what those are called?

I did not know they had names.

In my experience, yes.

I find real gestures more convenient.

You cannot use a stupid Apple mouse for those.

So I refuse to use one.

They never thought people would want to.

I hold down the right mouse button, and move left.

So you cannot do it.

That's Apple for you!

I never looked into full gestures.

You should!

Most time-saving thing ever.

Left is back.

Tell me some nicety they provide.

Up is copy.

Wait.

Down-Right is close tab.

I use double-click for grabbing a word, or triple for the line.

And middle button pastes.

That's not always possible.

What do you mean?

Why would it not be?

Copying a file, or something you can't double-click-select.

Um, to copy a file, I type "cp file1 file2".

Yes, but in a graphical interface?

I have no idea how to use a mouse to do that, nor whether it is even possible.

I have no idea how one would do that.

Right.

Well, then let's consider text editing.

Ok.

You should be warned that I do not use a mouse to edit.

Suppose you want to copy a phrase and replace some other phrase elsewhere with it.

You can do it with keys, but it is cumbersome.

Depends.

The worst thing about using a keyboard is moving around text to select/edit bits.

"y3w" puts the next three words in my paste buffer.

Apart from that, I would never use a mouse for text editing.

Very convenient.

How does that work?

I use a modal editor.

And what if it's 11 words?

y11w

But I can't count that high.

@tchrist But when do you type that? How does the editor know that you don't want to type y11w?

y stands for yank, btw.

Because I use a modal editor.

@tchrist Exactly: that's why I made it a higher number.

I would probably specify "y)" for through the end of the sentence, or "yt," for up to but not including a comma if that were its ending, etc.

If all else failed, I would hit "y/word" and type the real word I wanted to end on.

There are more visual means of doing this, of course.

Of course I could program my computer to copy the next x words if I type yxw, but then it would happen all the time, while I may want to type "y2w".

Where you drag your cursor.

@Cerberus No, that is the modal thing.

So then how does it know when?

That's what I asked.

I tell it so.

How?

I wish M..ax were here, because I know I am going to have to teach him this eventually. Well, want to, not have to.

I use some sort of input command to signal that I am entering text.

When I am done, I hit ESC and revert to editor mode, not insert mode.

It is much faster to edit if you can use simple keystrokes, not fancy ones.

I can do minor corrections in insert mode, like ^H to back up one character that I have just typed, or ^W for the whole word, etc.

But for harder stuff, I hit ESC, then go to town.

But I would hate to have to use control characters for general editing.

Let alone things with multiple prefixes.

I can actually edit with my eyes closed.

I had to do this once.

What happened is that only the keyboard and keyboard-bell were working, not the monitor or mouse. And I had to edit a system configuration file, which was in text. But I could not see it.

This is why a command editor wins. I could not have done it otherwise.

@RegDwighт Hiya. What are you doing up so late?

Ah ok, yes, so you need to initiate this mode every single time you want to copy something?

@RegDwighт I have painted myself into a corner with @Cerb. I am trying very very hard not to explain vi to him, and failing.

That is a lot of key presses.

@tchrist is gonna love this. @marthaª, too. @Cerberus will either die of laughter or of shock.

Uffdah.

I commented, of course. But I would have preferred to just nuke it from orbit.

dies in severe shock

@Cerb, toss another delete vote on it. Be hellacious. :)

No, that is the wrong thing, I know.

@Cerberus Well, that's it from me! You've been great!

Vote with downvotes and comments.

fpake?

He said fpake.

@tchrist Next time, just say "I hit a key combination to switch from typing mode to command mode, then I type y2w to copy the next two words". No need to beat around the bush.

@RegDwighт One does what one has to do.

ſtupid

I don’t know this yank thing. I don’t do it very much when editing programs or English.

@tchrist I managed to make ends meet without vi, for three decades, as a programmer. Cerberus probably does not even need to know the name.

But sometimes I will put something into a buffer I need to use a lot.

I like to use named buffers.

Of course.

The GUI doesn’t allow more than one paste buffer, I think.

I use this too.

@RegDwighт I know. Why do you think I am avoiding it?

The problem is that you always need either ending or initiating keys.

@RegDwighт HALT!

Like oedqq for Oxford English Dictionary.

@Reg I thought you were a kid like Cerb!?

Three decades have not graced his peachfuzzled face.

Even I have used vi for only three decades.

@tchrist In addition, you need to count how many words you want to copy! What if it's some part of a line of code?

Did you just out yourself as an old grumblesnort?

@Cerberus You don’t do that.

Just believe me, it works.

So can you see how simply selecting the code with the mouse and dragging it up is quicker?

Sure, it works.

A yank target is just a movement target, and there are infinitely many movement targets.

But it is much less comfortable.

No, it is superfaster than the mouse.

How?

Anyways, guys, I must be off to continue building that giraffe in LEGO Digital Designer. By which I mean, I must be off to continue looking for that one part in its parts list that I've already spent thirty seven minutes searching for, to no avail.

Haha.

Oh, dear.

Good luck!

Luck!

@Cerb You would just have to see my edit, I think. It is really fast, so much faster than a mouse it makes me cry when forced to use a mouse for editing.

That is not hyperbole.

It's such a common part. But the categories are stupid, and just looking through them all hasn't helped, and neither has searching for the part by name, because it's called twenty different things depending on which site you look it up on, and none of those names get me any hits.

@tchrist Look, you can't maintain that moving the cursor around with keyboard hotkeys and selecting some text and copying it is faster without a mouse. That's just not possible.

Poufff.

Bye!

@Cerberus Sure it is.

How do you yank three paragraphs, which might not even be on the current page?

"y3]"

Then tell me exactly which keys you press to select a couple of words in the middle of a sentence and copy them.

You don't need to explain why.

Must faster.

Just the key presses.

And you mustn't exclude the initiator key you press!

Naughty!

Probably y2w or y2e.

No, no!

You are not being fair.

I never ever ever ever touch the mouse when editing. That would slow me down too much.

You told me you had to press some initiating hotkey.

And you probably need some ending key as well.

If I am entering new text, then that is different.

And you need to count words.

If I am editing, than I am editing.

And you need to move to the new position of the words you want to paste. And paste it.

Ok, go look at Reg’s long text above:

I need all the keys that you press to go to a position in a sentence half a paragraph down from your cursor, select 11 words, copy them, go to a new position another half paragraph down, and paste them.

Now tell me what transformation you want me to do with Reg's text there.

Rearrange, insert, delete, whatever.

And I will tell you what I do.

1. Your cursor is nowhere near Reg's line. 2. You want to copy the words "and neither has searching for the part". 3. You want to paste it before "any hits".

So suppose your cursor starts at the end of the text, and you were just typing the last word. That is your starting position.

I would put my cursor there, of course. You cannot do anything if you are not there.

Put it where?

Hold on, and I will tell you. So my cursor is just past the end of the "hits." because I am done entering text, right?

Yes.

I would hit "T,;y7w$BBP".

I can type that very fast.

How does that take you to the right position?

I thought you didn’t need/want to know the why, just the what?

I did not, but now I must confess that I look at your thingy and grow sceptical.

And I need to know how long you need to peer and count too.

To move forward to atop character C, you use fC; to move to to a character C but not on it, you use tC.

The capital versions moves backwards instead of forwards. So the "T," moves me backwards to just in front of (well, just behind), the first "," I come to.

That is not the right comma, so I repeat the last movement in the same direction with the ";" key.

I am now on the space after the comma for "helped, and".

Remember I have been doing this for 30 years, longer than you have breathed. It is in muscle-memory. I never ever have to think about it.

Okay, so you need to look at the text first, consider where the comma is, then look at all the other commas, count, and then press [shift-t comma semicolon]. How long does that take you?

Besides, how does the program know that you were entering command mode?

More description: "$BBP" moves me to the end of the line with "$", then "B" moves be back a word, and then I do it again, and then I use "P" to put (you would say paste) whatever I have yanked in the position before the cursor.

No time.

You said I was done entering text.

You might have wanted to type a capital?

@tchrist Yes, you were, but you hadn't told the program that yet. You need to tell it.

My finger reaches for the ESC key automatically when I am done with insertion.

Note that my ESC key is to the immediate left of my "1" key.

So escape triggers command mode?

Not above it.

Yes.

Well, it ends insert mode.

ESC ends a command.

I was obviously in a long insert command to type all that.

Okay. Then we have already added escape and shift to your sequence.

Shift?

Where?

T.

Oh for fuck sake, I thought you were a typist.

I am no such thing, and I don't know what you mean.

But yes, the reason T and F are the backwards ones and t and f the forwards ones is because the normal stuff is in lowercase.

Shift is a key, and you need to press it.

Capitals are for unusual things.\

No typist counts a capital letter as something special.

You are talking about GUI events.

That sort of thing is meaningless here.

No, because we were talking about speed.

Each key you press takes a little time.

I type 100 wpm.

I am not disparaging your method here. I can see that it can be very convenient; in fact, I may use some of this myself. But that is not the point I was trying to make.

Sometimes faster.

@tchrist But the looking and the counting?

But if I want particular text, I look at where it is.

How else do I know I want it?

Yeah exactly.

So I have to look at it to know I want it.

But you don't need to just look at the words you want, but also at other places around them, because you need buoys to navigate by, like the commas.

If I am on the line "But if I want particular text, I look at where it is." and want to invert that, it is very easy: "f,D0P".

There is still some cleanup to do, but it is very fast as you see.

"f," finds the comma.

The D deletes through the end of the line.

0 goes to the front of the line.

P pastes what I just deleted in front of the cursor.

See how fast that is?

Sure.

I probably should have deleted only up to but not including the dot, so "dt.".

In practice, I would kill the comma and space first. So the whole thing is "f,xxdt.0P".

See how I did not count words there?

Usually if you have something more than a word or two, you are thinking about it as some larger structure.

When I am on the same line, and I have the end or beginning of a line as buoys, or I only need to manipulate a few words, I usually do it by keyboard too. But that was not the scenario we had.

If I wanted to move the next two sentences to two sentences earlier, it is just "d2)2(p".

Are you listening?

If I wanted to move the next two words to two words earlier, it is just "d2w2bp".

I know you can do this very fast once you know what you want to do exactly and have assessed the relative distances and numbers.

Because movement and delete and such are all the same thing.

Move forward three words is 3w, delete three words is d3w.

Move forward a sentence is ), so delete a sentence is d).

Okay, it's bed time for me anyway, and you're not really listening...

I can’t hear you, no.

So good night, then.

Just because I have not managed to explain it does not mean I am mistaken.

Did you see Reg?

Very curious.

Did you ever read my Zen Clavier article?

It is all about this very matter.

Once your editor becomes as engrained into your brain as a Beethoven sonata, and as automatic, anything like a mouse destroys you.

You are not mistaken: you are not letting me make my point by addressing my questions.

I do not find the "counting words" thing to ever be something that comes up.

Ever.

I am not big on counting.

Comes up?

Then how do you arrive at the number 11?

You told me.

facepalm

Work with me here.

Normally I just mark where I want to yank.

The number 7, then.

I somehow navigate to the end point. I set a mark.

I go someplace else.

"Somehow".

There is counting and peering involved, isn't there?

No. No counting.

3 is a number you need to count.

If I wanted to back up this page to where it mentions Ludvig, I would not count.

I would say "?Beeth" and there I would be.

But then you still need to think.

And it may be "the" that you need?

Where?

Which the?

Anywhere.

I do not use the mouse to move. It is too slow.

Remember, we are talking about a hypothetical page in which you are moving around phrases.

The top of the screen is H. The line at the bottom of screen is L. The one in the middle is M.

Sometimes I might hit M and then go up or down a few lines.

You have to decide not only how the phrase that you need is identifiable, but also how to get there.

Mjj to go to middle and then down two.

For example.

"A few lines" means looking and counting.

No, I can edit with my eyes closed.

Eh no.

So that proves this is not true.

You need to look at the phrase you want to move in the very least.

What do you mean, "eh no"?

Not if I know it is there, I do not.

But you don't know until you look at it.

Why would I have to look at it? I typed it myself.

And you don't know its relative position exactly until you look at it.

I can find the Beethoven sonata without looking at it.

I know I typed it.

You don't remember the exact words you typed five minutes or five years ago.

So that means it is somewhere up there, just waiting for me.

You must have a point here.

Only if they contain a very identifiable word, sure. But remember the scenario.

But I cannot see what it is. Perhaps you would like to tell me.

My point was, is, and continues to be that I can edit faster without a mouse.

And that I do so.

My point is that, with a mouse, you don't need to press more than two buttons, you don't need to look at the situation the phrase is in in order to figure out how to get there (is it two commas down or three?), and you don't need to count how many words you want to copy, nor consider how the end of what you want to copy can be reached in the quickest way possible.

You are from the video game generation. You simply do not understand the symbolic thought that goes into a programmer’s editor, nor the keyboardist muscle memory that sets in with repeated pattern use.

@tchrist Yeah, when I used to use Emacs I was like lightning. Then I fell prey to modern word processors and IDEs and it all went to hell.

A mouse is crap.

Oh, stop it.

@Robusto I won’t use those.