English Language Learners

Jim Reynolds

2:00 PM

@Dam for April Fools?

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India Ah, I saw that one. I think the linked article marks it ungrammatical.

@JimReynolds Yes.

MARamezani

@snailboat I never thought I'd hear that from you snailor!

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I counted 8 unknown words!

Anonymous

And those people might say you don't need to learn about the dative or conative alternations.

Man_From_India

I fall in that list :D

Anonymous

2:01 PM

And they'd be right, I suppose,

Anonymous

But I think grammar is pretty useful.

Anonymous

You can't learn a language by sitting around reading about grammar. We can all agree on that, I hope.

Man_From_India

yes it's...but sometimes too many terms and rules make learners confused :-(

Anonymous

But being able to describe the way something in language works precisely can clue people in about something they just don't get.

MARamezani

@Man_From_India Go on hoping...

Jim Reynolds

2:06 PM

Suppose that if one spends a lot of time reading and learning about and discussing anything in a target language, that one will improve their skills a lot in that language.

Then, maybe almost all of some of you ELLers with excellent English may have developed just as good English no matter what you spent your time talking about, as long as you were interested in it.

MARamezani

So what's your point?

Jim Reynolds

That learning grammar explicitly is generally a poor strategy for acquiring a language.

I'd say that reading about and talking about something you love is the best way.

MARamezani

For once you're right.

Jim Reynolds

The question, then, what if one loves grammar?

O.O

Anonymous

@JimReynolds Oh no! What terrible luck that person would have.

Jim Reynolds

2:09 PM

:-)

snailor didn't know how to react when I paid her a compliment earlier.

That's perfectly normal, of course.

But when the shrine is finished, she'll see that I'm really sincere, and that there's nothing to worry about.

Here's the hermaphrodite's bathroom: rustourismnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/main.jpg

Yes, those are snail eggs.

MARamezani

@snailboat Yay! Everyone is learning.... To use "snailor".

Jim Reynolds

It's catchy.

MARamezani

:}

@JimReynolds I know, right? Then she objects....

Jim Reynolds

She did?

MARamezani

I don't know, maybe.

@snailboat you did?

Damkerng T.

2:14 PM

Grammar, imo, is important after having acquired enough of a language.

Jim Reynolds

No. I disagree.

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. After. But I agree.

@JimReynolds FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!

Jim Reynolds

I .. somehow, scored in the 99th percentile on the verbal section of the GRE, and at that time, I knew almost nothing about grammar.

consciously.

Damkerng T.

It's particularly important, I think, in writing.

@JimReynolds Interesting.

Jim Reynolds

But I read every day, for hours every day, from pretty early in childhood up until then.

MARamezani

2:16 PM

Wait guys...English check:

0

Q: What in the world is "resource-recommendations"?

As of now, software-recommendations has been created for 23 hours by Community user. Which leaves me with these questions: Why and/or how does a bot do this? How will this tag be doing anything better than what reference-request is currently doing? Should we burninate it? If not, what are we g...

Damkerng T.

Had you learned any second language yet at that time?

MARamezani

Did I use correct grammar in the title?

Anonymous

@MARamezani It's fine

Damkerng T.

Looks good to me. But I ignored the inside of "...".

MARamezani

I remembered many use it as "what in the world of [blah blah blah] is [something]?" So I just came in to ask.

Jim Reynolds

2:17 PM

rather than having related questions divided into using two

That ain't right.

MARamezani

Ellipsis: rather than having related questions divided into using two [tags]

Why wrong?

Jim Reynolds

@snailboat will explain.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... technically, I think "using X things" is one thing.

Jim Reynolds

Ellipsis!

Pffft!

Nice try.

You think we're 8 years old?

MARamezani

@JimReynolds Yeah...In reverse.

Jim Reynolds

2:19 PM

88 maybe

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yeah, I'm assuming the quotation marks are for the use-mention distinction

Anonymous

If it's mentioned, then is. If it's used, then are.

Anonymous

Snails is a plural noun. (mention)

Anonymous

Snails are cute animals. (use)

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. That's a new tag.

Damkerng T.

2:21 PM

The first thing that crossed my mind when I looked inside "..." is: why the hyphen?

MARamezani

A tag.

Damkerng T.

Yes. Then I realized that it could be a tag.

MARamezani

Whoops.

Jim Reynolds

@Man visit in your near home is ... no workey.

Damkerng T.

I think this is semantically doubtful: Let's divide set A into a set of two B's.

Anonymous

2:23 PM

I'm sorry, what is it that I'm supposed to explain?

Anonymous

I've been feverishly playing StackEgg and I'm afraid I lost track of what everyone was saying.

MARamezani

@snailboat Apparently, rather than having related questions divided into using two is wrong. Why?

And it's two [tags].

Ellipsis.

Jim Reynolds

MARS wrote a question. See about 7 minutes up.

Anonymous

Oh, so I have to actually read the question

Jim Reynolds

If you open it, the ending part is . . .

well, I don't want to hurt his feelings.

garbage?

MARamezani

2:25 PM

Trash. Waste.

Jim Reynolds

Random ravings of a moronic lunatic?

MARamezani

@JimReynolds That all you could say?

Jim Reynolds

Because you are sweet.

Anonymous

One is a determiner, like a. You can say "it's better to have one canonical tag"

MARamezani

@JimReynolds Dimethyl mercury isn't sweet, either on Earth or Mars.

Anonymous

2:26 PM

You can also use the adjective single: "it's better to have a single canonical tag"

Jim Reynolds

You are getting ripped apart.

Word by word.

MARamezani

@snailboat A-ha!

@JimReynolds Tears

Jim Reynolds

:D

Anonymous

Maybe you'd like to use divided up rather than divided into

MARamezani

It's divided into two groups using those tags

It isn't. I mean the meaning.

Anonymous

2:28 PM

Sure. The problem is that I don't see what the complement of into is in your sentence

Anonymous

divided into using two doesn't parse

MARamezani

Hmm, so let's correct things up.

Anonymous

It looks like using two is an unrelated adjunct and into is missing its complement

MARamezani

And yeah. Up.

@snailboat I see your point is valid. Can't argue.

Anonymous

I suggested divided up because that's a phrasal verb, or more strictly, a verb-particle idiom

Anonymous

2:29 PM

And the particle up doesn't take a complement, so it works

MARamezani

I wonder what Jim is doing now. Maybe laughing so much he can't post.

Anonymous

I don't mean for any of this to sound or be taken as oppositional

Anonymous

I view this sort of discussion as collaborative

MARamezani

@snailboat You're teaching. How is that oppositional?!

Man_From_India

@JimReynolds Yes that is wrong. But it says near as adjective when used in the meaning of distance can't be placed before a noun. But before some noun it can be placed like near distance, near neighbour etc

Anonymous

2:32 PM

I'm just reacting to your messages

MARamezani

@snailboat A piece of advice: NEVER take my messages seriously.

Unless I tell you to do so, of course.

Jim Reynolds

snailboat is a different style of humorist than we are.

Damkerng T.

1

Q: What does "solipsistic universals" mean?

I want to know what is the meaning of "solipsistic universals" in the following paragraph: To say this will be a personal book does not mean that it is purely subjective, a mere sharing of anecdotes and fantasies, or a self-indulgent "confessional" filled with solipsistic universals. I gues...

meaning meaning-in-context sentence-meaning phrase

MARamezani

@JimReynolds And it's causing problems.

Damkerng T.

To close or not to close--that's the question.

Jim Reynolds

2:34 PM

It doesn't have to.

MARamezani

@snailor and @Jim after meddling (not to be taken seriously, and this sign has sharp edges) for some time I was convinced to edit my question. Done!

Anonymous

@Man_From_India Sure, spatial and temporal nouns: near east, near future, near term, near midnight, including place nouns: near Seattle, near Chicago. That just follows from the semantics of near, I think

Anonymous

But you can also say someone has a near monopoly, or you can talk about a near miss, or you can say a battery is near capacity

Damkerng T.

I think "don't use near before a noun" is another baby rule.

Jim Reynolds

@snailboat , do you feel that you understand something about how MAR (especially) plays and has fun and jokes in a "teasing" way, that we really enjoy?

MARamezani

2:36 PM

@DamkerngT. Yes, some people have a near-death experience.

Damkerng T.

(It's useful for new learners, I mean.)

Man_From_India

@snailboat nice :-)

MARamezani

WOW! Take a look at this. This is how pessimistic people can be!

-51

Q: Is the SO policy on duplicates a pyramid scheme to reward seniority?

The Problem One could take the SO obsession with marking questions as duplicates to be a pyramid scheme to increase the reputation of older users who have answered questions a long time ago and want to continue to receive 'income' from successive generations of programmers struggling with a issu...

discussion duplicate-questions

Damkerng T.

:)

MARamezani

The answer is nice, though.

Jim Reynolds

2:39 PM

@Man I think Damkerng is exactly right.

The "guideline" will help earlier learners avoid mistakes.

MARamezani

@JimReynolds I thought he was left!

Jim Reynolds

O.0

Damkerng T.

He's still around, I think!

Jim Reynolds

Hahaha!

MARamezani

Dam have I shown you this?

-45

Q: Why isn't there a rule that says "any criticism should begin with saying something positive"?

I like using Stack Overflow but have a very bad taste in my mouth from what I consider the "SO Police" and I don't mean that in a positive way. I'd say at least half of the assaults on my posts (yes, I do mean that in a derogatory way) have been unfounded and in many cases wrong. I feel they can...

discussion etiquette

Man_From_India

2:41 PM

@JimReynolds True...just saw the nima's confusion in his question. But had no real answer to it :-(

MARamezani

LOL!

Jim Reynolds

@MAR I think you and me are closest in the silly department.

Dam can usually follow along, but not always.

MARamezani

@Man_From_India Again so sad? Cheer up! Life is full of goodie!

Jim Reynolds

OK. Where's the question?

Man_From_India

4

Q: "nearby" (close by) as an adjective, a preposition, or an adverb

Would you show me if there could be any potential difference semantically between the two? Please, would you possibly take into account the bounds of possibility that the word "nearby" in the following could be an adjective, or even an adverb: I live in a nearby town. I live in a town n...

prepositions adjectives adverbs part-of-speech

Jim Reynolds

2:41 PM

-45 !

So fun!!

MARamezani

@JimReynolds NO WAY! You get to be close to me!

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds I have to unlock a few protectors before I can join that department fully!

Jim Reynolds

I wish I could write a -45 question on ELL or ELU

Man_From_India

> And, would this one be incorrect?I hope to visit you in your near home. [near cannot be used before a noun to refer to distance]

MARamezani

@JimReynolds Gimme a minute.

-140

Q: Should we discourage leading +/-1 on comments?

Update: The test is over; results and the final form of this restriction detailed here: Remove the limitation that stops comments from starting with +1 or -1 I'm getting really sick of finding folks arguing about votes, only to see that the bickering started with a comment of the form, -1,...

discussion comments

Shog was apparently unhappy, and meta.SO was unhappier.

Damkerng T.

2:43 PM

@JimReynolds -5 is challenging enough. -10 is extremely challenging.

MARamezani

He got a gold badge... @#$%$#@ question

(get the first -100 question)

@DamkerngT. Yeah...Even spams hardly make it to that realm.

Damkerng T.

@MARamezani No. But I think it's just common sense.

@MARamezani Exactly!

Jim Reynolds

@Man One step at a time. Do you know that "nearby home" would be the correct way to say it? Assuming that is what is meant.

Is that what it means? Your home (which is near to me).

It does not mean that you have two homes, and I will visit the one nearest me?

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. Ringing any bells? LOCATIVE, man!

Jim Reynolds

It's not a man.

Man_From_India

2:45 PM

I think he wanted to mean visit nearby your home

Jim Reynolds

@Man is a man

MARamezani

Yeah. My bad.

Jim Reynolds

Yes. Visit your nearby home.

Damkerng T.

@MARamezani See, we've been on the near question for several days now. I think we must be very near.

Jim Reynolds

That is a problematic use of "till now"

Damkerng T.

2:47 PM

(By the way, I like the term locative.)

Jim Reynolds

Reform your ways.

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. Reminds me of locomotive.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Better?

Jim Reynolds

Well, yes.

You did that just for me?

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Who else would I do that for!? :-)

Jim Reynolds

2:48 PM

I'll be away for a few minutes, too emotionally moved to type.

MARamezani

@JimReynolds Tears or running in the beach?

Damkerng T.

177 days have elapsed

(I decided to go slowly.)

Jim Reynolds

Do you mean, like running on a beach in slow motion, as in a romantic scene of a movie?

MARamezani

@JimReynolds Yup. So it's that one, I reckon?

Jim Reynolds

No. The object of my affection would rust in saltwater. :'(

MARamezani

2:51 PM

@JimReynolds And I deliberately used in....

Jim Reynolds

We'll never have that.

I know you did. Poetic effect.

O.o

O.0

O.O

MARamezani

o.O

Jim Reynolds

0.O

o.0

MARamezani

0.0

Trashing the chat is fun. No wonder you do it a lot.

Jim Reynolds

It's how we did it in the mid 60s.

Damkerng T.

2:53 PM

Since I saw Legend of the Guardians yesterday, all variants of O.O remind me of an owl now.

> If you give, you will receive twice as much.

Hmm... there is nothing like that in English. Really?

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. They always did remind me.

Jim Reynolds

If you give ...? Where is that from? You wonder if there's nothing like that expression in English?

Damkerng T.

It's from an ELL question. It's Greek.

Jim Reynolds

ok.

Damkerng T.

> ell.stackexchange.com/q/53871/3281

Sorry, I didn't post the link.

Jim Reynolds

2:57 PM

Whatever you give, you will get back many-fold!!!!

Damkerng T.

:D

Jim Reynolds

We do have all kinds of quotes and expressions like that.

MARamezani

@JimReynolds Depends on a variation of actions, from punching to giving money.

If it's punching, I agree with you.

If it's giving money, the reverse is possible.

Jim Reynolds

Whatever you give a woman, she will make greater. ... So, if you give her any crap, be ready to receive a ton of shit!”

O.o

MARamezani

Heck, who does give money these days?

Jim Reynolds

2:59 PM

Punches MAR in the moneybag.

MARamezani

@JimReynolds Sounds like I need to flag something....

@JimReynolds Dream on!

Jim Reynolds

Go ahead. Flag all day.

I was your age once. I know that it's constant flagging.

MARamezani

@JimReynolds Reminds me of our ol' Turkish proverbs.

@JimReynolds :} I got what you meant!

Jim Reynolds

:-)

MARamezani

Turkish proverbs never end without the Turkish equivalent of these words: Sh@t,F@@@ etc.

Jim Reynolds

3:04 PM

Hahaha.

They sound very wise then.

MARamezani

They are, even the other way around.

Jim Reynolds

We need to take our dogs for a walk. We don't have a robot, so ...

We have to settle for dogs.

MARamezani

I wonder if robot has a robot pet.

Damkerng T.

@MARamezani Too expensive, and not very intelligent.

Jim Reynolds

hahahha

MARamezani

3:07 PM

@DamkerngT. Let me report you to Robot pets inc. so they'll banish you from using the internet...

Damkerng T.

o.O

7

A: 'Each' with plural or singular verb

Each in phrases like each battery is singular; the verb you use in that cases is singular. Each battery is in a separate compartment. Vice versa, in sentences like the following the verb is plural. They each have their own personality. Foo comprises multiple binary programs that each ...

Hmm...

The answer claims that this is correct:

> Foo comprises multiple binary programs that each perform a single task.

MARamezani

That's kiam!

Damkerng T.

Yes. It's him (or her?).

MARamezani

-44

Q: Need my points back

I made my own answer at one place - What is the difference between JDK and JRE? and copied it to another - Java SE 6 vs. JRE 1.6 vs. JDK 1.6 - What do these mean? Both answers were deleted citing plagiarism. I want one answer (first one) to be un-deleted. My answer adds useful info to the questio...

discussion review

Hehe! And it contains "do the needful"

Damkerng T.

You have arrived at the correct answer, but your explanation does not strike at the real issue: Why is it so? "Vice versa, in sentences like the following the verb is plural. They each have their own personality. Foo comprises multiple binary programs that each perform a single task." The explanation is that each is not being used as a pronoun, as most folks erroneously assume, so perform must agree with the relative pronoun "that". — ScotM Dec 20 '14 at 17:51

MARamezani

3:18 PM

I think the Foo sentence ain't correct.

Damkerng T.

So this is correct, according to his comment:

> Programs each perform a single task.

Yes. I think we need grammar to be sure.

But our ELL question is sort of a little different:

> http://ell.stackexchange.com/q/53886/3281
They each tell/tells a story.

If it were Each of them, it would be an easy question.

@MARamezani I think I agree with you.

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. I am sure that sentence is not :-)

MARamezani

Hmm, what is each in the OP's question?

> They each...

Hmm.

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure, because I don't know if each is really allowed in that position.

But it's obvious that it looks similar to They both.

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. Could be a possibility too.

Man_From_India

3:22 PM

Yes it's allowed....They each plural-verb

MARamezani

@Man_From_India Could you be less mystical?

Man_From_India

A parsian thinks a tiny Indian more mystical than he is :D lol

i think all the example sentences in that deleted answer are correct :)

Damkerng T.

I wonder why they deleted their answer.

Oh, I see. To edit.

MARamezani

I can't see deleted answer...Yet.

Damkerng T.

I followed the link to that ELU answer because the answer to our question was still deleted at that time.

MARamezani

3:32 PM

Nods

Man_From_India

Even I checked that ELU answer, but it doesn't address this particular problem.

MARamezani

0

Q: taken of you meaning

What is the meaning of the following phrase; Due cognisance is taken of you reticence regarding item 2 I can not understand anything.

meaning meaning-in-context

Damkerng T.

nods -- I think our answer is better. (Yay!)

Man_From_India

true

MARamezani

The sentence is gibberish right?

Damkerng T.

3:33 PM

I guess it's an L1 interference.

Man_From_India

Any idea of error?

I think reticence should be replaced with reticent.

Damkerng T.

Well, I think first of all, it should be cognizance.

nods

Man_From_India

Oh no ..s.. verison for it? :O

Damkerng T.

But I think the whole sentence doesn't sound English. Or maybe it's not the English I know.

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. It sounds like Chinese English to me... :P

Damkerng T.

3:42 PM

Hardly, for me. I mean, cognisance and reticence make me think that their L1 is a Romance language.

Man_From_India

I had no idea, I had to look for their meaning :)

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. You didn't get what I mean, I think.

Maybe it's not occurring often in Thailand.

Damkerng T.

@MARamezani Well, I think I get what you think, but I don't think you get what I think.

Man_From_India

I am not sure if we can use take of to mean take from

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. I did get what you think, but no, you didn't get what I think.

Don't blame yourself/me.

Damkerng T.

3:44 PM

Okay, let's do a reality check. What did you think in plain English?

MARamezani

It's not happening there. I get it.

Damkerng T.

Not plain enough.

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. It looked to me as if the situation for which that script was written is similar to Chinese goods being typed on some kinda English.

Damkerng T.

Because you're familiar with Chinese goods?

MARamezani

Nah. Cuz I'm familiar with things they write and think is correct.

They don't think about it, though.

Damkerng T.

3:49 PM

Oh, maybe you're more familiar with their English than me.

MARamezani

Big time!

Damkerng T.

nods

As your classmates?

MARamezani

No. When I read the labels they stick to their goods.

Man_From_India

Oh we now have an answer for that sentence. It's now clear...

Damkerng T.

So you have imported their goods?

MARamezani

3:51 PM

@DamkerngT. You is heavy for a 16yo, robot!

Damkerng T.

@MARamezani Not really. You just got my curiosity, "Why Chinese?"

MARamezani

What do you mean?

Oh , nevermind.

Damkerng T.

Given the sentence Due cognisance is taken of you reticence regarding item 2, you said It sounds like Chinese English to me. So, I wondered, Why Chinese?

MARamezani

Nevermind! I got distracted for a moment. How is ELL's stackegg doing now?

Damkerng T.

It could indeed be from Chinese, though for me it could as well be from any other parts of the world. Still, I'm wondering, Why Chinese?

MARamezani

3:55 PM

I understand. Not much low quality garbage you get from China.

Damkerng T.

Now that's why I asked you. (And why I had said earlier that you didn't get me.)