English Language Learners

12:08 PM

I was searching some example sentences of back down on/from

And I found this sentence in BNC

> She sat the cafetière firmly back down on its stand.

I have some question regarding this sentence. First of all there is no preposition between sat and where she is siting, the cafetiere that is.

Damkerng T.

I think this one is not the idiomatic usage.

This sat is about the same as put or place.

Man_From_India

Second, I have problem with the phrase back down on its stand.

Damkerng T.

Think of cafetière as a pot, and its stand is where you'd normally place the pot on.

Man_From_India

Ahh I see

Damkerng T.

Yay!

Man_From_India

12:12 PM

I was confused with the phrasal verb back down, it's different.

Damkerng T.

Yes.

Man_From_India

Thanks :-) i was not expecting a quick answer, as the room was apparently empty :-)

Damkerng T.

This one is not that phrasal verb. It's about the same thing as She put her book back down on the table. :-)

Man_From_India

yes

Damkerng T.

I just came in! What a coincidence!

Man_From_India

12:14 PM

:-)

one more question. The phrasal verb back down. After that we normally use on or from. I think in both case they mean the same.

Damkerng T.

Probably. I'm more familiar with on, FWIW.

Man_From_India

For example, in BNC I found this

> She flushed angrily, refusing to back down on a point of principle.

Damkerng T.

nods

Man_From_India

if I use from in place of on, will it mean the same thing?

Damkerng T.

I doubt that. I don't normally see from used with this one.

But if I saw one, I would take it as the standard on version.

Man_From_India

12:17 PM

ok

Damkerng T.

Or maybe it's just that the back down is not a phrasal verb in that sentence.

Man_From_India

From Cambridge dictionary

> Local residents have forced the local council to back down from/on its plans to build a nightclub on their street.

I think we can :-)

Damkerng T.

Ahh... So both are possible!

Man_From_India

Actually from was my guess :-)

Damkerng T.

Thanks for the sharing!

Man_From_India

12:19 PM

And they mean the same thing, no doubt :-)

Damkerng T.

Yes!

I'd phrase it as either Please let me know if anything suitable comes up or Please let me know whenever something suitable comes up. — Damkerng T. 7 secs ago

I finished typing that and asked myself why I opted for those alternatives.

And it's very likely that in my real speech, I'd use came instead.

MARamezani

12:47 PM

Hi!

MARamezani

1:32 PM

I figure out I got a fourth alone.

Man_From_India

2:06 PM

hi @MARamezani

MARamezani

Too late. I got the fifth alone.

Anonymous

Hello!

MARamezani

Hi @snailboat!

Man_From_India

:-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Came is definitely an option in the first sentence, but of course the meaning is different

MARamezani

2:12 PM

Too bad. No one was here for ~~nagging~~ chatting and I have to go. Bye!

Anonymous

With comes, the verb has future time reference, while with came, the verb has past time reference

Jim Reynolds

Hi. @Man I think we normally use on and off with point, in the sense of opinion, etc.

Man_From_India

@JimReynolds Oh so off is also possible :-) great...

Jim Reynolds

Well.... the more I think about it, the less sure I am now.

Anonymous

The following preposition isn't actually part of the phrasal verb (intransitive verb-particle idiom) and you should be able to use most any preposition that makes sense in a given sentence. Try searching for "back down [i*]" on COCA and see what you find

Anonymous

2:26 PM

I'm on my phone so it's difficult for me to do that sort of research myself at the moment

Anonymous

The [i*] notation means "any preposition"

Man_From_India

thanks @snailboat I will do that

Anonymous

I expect you'll find a small number of examples with off

Anonymous

Oh, you may need to specify back as a verb… back.[v*]

Anonymous

I should just wait until I'm at a computer for this sort of thing :-)

Anonymous

2:32 PM

Unfortunately I'm still not well

Anonymous

I'll try to be more helpful later :-)

Man_From_India

@snailboat That is perfectly okay :-) take good care :-) snails are strong, I guess so they get well soon...

My happy days of free OED access are over :-( no more free access :-'(

Anonymous

I can look things up in the OED for you if you need it

Man_From_India

Actually I have a soft copy of that voluminous OED :-)

Anonymous

Oh :-)

Man_From_India

2:42 PM

I was curious to look at the definitions of to in OED

Anonymous

A lot of people can access the OED for free through their local libraries in the US and UK

Man_From_India

One of my previous question prompted me to do it

2

Q: Meaning - to her own recipe

I can't understand the bold part of this sentence - Potpourri was provided, made by Mrs. Jevons to her own recipe, to take away the smell. What is the meaning of "to her own recipe"?

Anonymous

I don't know how common that is in India

Man_From_India

Neither am I. The meaning of to in to her own recipe is in accordance with her recipe. OED has that definition. I don't think I have found such definition of to in any other dictionary.

Damkerng T.

4:50 PM

@snailboat Oh! Get well soon!

Thanks for the comment, btw. I think I thought of came up because I thought it was unlikely that anything would come up.

@Man_From_India Mwahahaha!

Hee

Verbs of any tense or aspect can appear in a relative clause; are you sure the guide book is saying what you think it is saying? Here to leave is a to-infinitive modifying last. The example sentence as written is fine, though I, and probably most Americans at least, would more likely formulate it as Would the last person to leave — choster 1 hour ago

Given all possible choices, the shortest one usually wins.

> Will the person who is last to leave ...?
Would the last person to leave ...?

1

Q: how to read this mathmatics value

I have this value How to read that in English? translating from my native language, I would say Ten base of nine. but is that really correct?

mathematics reading-aloud

Ah, this one reminds me of that thing I've heard. About the fewer syllables you need to read math, the better you will be at it.

I usually cheat by reading 10^9 as "ten power nine".

I mean, "ten to the power of nine" is rather mouthful.

Don't know if any native speakers will use a similar trick.

Hi @infinitesimal!

infinitesimal

Hi pal @DamkerngT. How are you?

Damkerng T.

I'm okay.

How are you?

infinitesimal

Fine thanks :-)

Damkerng T.

Good!

:D

I just dropped in for a bit.

infinitesimal

Me too.

Damkerng T.

5:02 PM

4

Q: How do you say that tree rings (are - will be) closer if there isn't much rain [in a year]?

Which of these sentences is true? If there is not much rain in a year, the rings in a tree are close together OR If there is not much rain in a year, the rings in a tree will be close together If I removed "in a year" from the sentence would this make any difference? A picture for illustrati...

meaning conditional-constructions comparison future-tense present-tense

infinitesimal

I was on my way to the great audiobook collection on YouTube.

Damkerng T.

I did a quick glance over it and I think there are at least two answers that are irrelevant!

Maybe I didn't read it carefully enough.

@infinitesimal Oh, that's nice!

Oh, I see. It's not about the expression, it's about tense!

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. I have another option :-D lol

Damkerng T.

Oh, good for you!

:D

Man_From_India

> Some research (suggest) ___ that Vitamin C may help prevent cancer.

will it be suggest or suggests?

Damkerng T.

5:08 PM

I'd use suggests.

But I would probably rephrase the sentence if possible.

Man_From_India

that's strange. Even the exercise also say it is suggests :-(

Damkerng T.

It should be some research results, not just some research.

That would be the way I write it.

Though I won't object them, those who write some research suggests ....

Man_From_India

yes, and the worse is it's from an exercise :-(

Damkerng T.

(Like some people call line graphs charts, which makes me feel a bit weird every time.) -- Correction: that's probably not that weird. I think calling bar charts bar graphs is weirder.

Man_From_India

I got the rule from Google.

> Some indefinite pronouns — such as all, some — are singular or plural depending on what they're referring to. (Is the thing referred to countable or not?) Be careful choosing a verb to accompany such pronouns.

For example -

Damkerng T.

5:12 PM

@Man_From_India Yes, that's right!

Man_From_India

Some of the beads are missing.
Some of the water is gone.

Damkerng T.

The problem with this one is that research is uncountable.

> Some water *are tasteless.

I don't think you would use are in that one.

Man_From_India

I forgot all these rules :-( though I don't need all these rules for clearing exams any more :-P

yes

Damkerng T.

Yay! Snailboat is back!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Someone pointed out to me a little while back . . .

Man_From_India

5:16 PM

g2g...see u tomorrow :-) good night @DamkerngT. @snailboat

Anonymous

If you read 10283750983718923 as ten quadrillion two hundred eighty three trillion seven hundred fifty billion nine hundred eighty three million seven hundred eighteen thousand nine hundred and twenty three

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India Good night! And have a great tomorrow!

Anonymous

It actually takes a lot more effort to process than if you just look at the number

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Aww... That's very long!

Indeed!

Anonymous

So, looking at it the other way around,

Anonymous

5:17 PM

No matter how fast I (theoretically) get at reading numbers like this aloud in Japanese

Anonymous

It'll probably always be relatively slow :-)

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Hmm... that's interesting!

Anonymous

@Man_From_India Have a good night, Man from India!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Hello!

Damkerng T.

lol

Hello!

Anonymous

5:19 PM

@Man_From_India Some isn't an indefinite pronoun here. It's a determiner.

Anonymous

I read 10^9 as "ten to the nine" (more fully, ninth or ninth power, or even ten raised to the ninth power)

Damkerng T.

Oh, that's rather short!

Anonymous

When you say stuff like 10^x or 10^(1/2) it's usually easier to say "ten to the x" or "ten to the one half"

Anonymous

Probably formally it's "ten to the power of one half"

Anonymous

So I guess I get in the habit of generalizing to "__ to the __" :-)

Damkerng T.

5:23 PM

:D

That makes sense.

Anonymous

With the exception of squared, which is probably never to the two or very rarely to the second

Anonymous

And cubed, which is probably more common than to the three or to the third

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

They say that you never truly learn math in a second language

Damkerng T.

Oh, roots of a number are usually long.

Anonymous

5:24 PM

This is almost certainly not true for everyone… :-) But they do say it

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I guess it makes sense, at least for most people.

Anonymous

It probably reflects a real sort of challenge people face, at any rate

Anonymous

You know, there's a lot of mathematical stuff I don't really know how to pronounce in Japanese

Damkerng T.

I remember I've read that those math Olympiads usually work out all the numbers in their first language.

@snailboat Oh! That's a bit surprising, coming from you.

Anonymous

Well, I know how to say basic stuff.

Anonymous

5:26 PM

Like arithmetic, fractions, and so forth

Damkerng T.

I wonder how big the number of people who know how to say anything more complicated that that is.

Anonymous

I just realized I don't know how to pronounce a lot of mathematical stuff in English

Anonymous

I was going to give you an example of a Taylor series in sigma notation, and I started typing out how I'd pronounce it, but I got confused halfway :-)

Damkerng T.

I bet that anything beyond fractions are challenging enough to read in Thai for Thai people!

One of our famous standing comedians here usually says, "Why learn Pi?!"

Anonymous

I've memorized every single digit of pi

Anonymous

5:30 PM

Here goes:

Anonymous

π

Damkerng T.

:D

infinitesimal

We have very long and heated discussions about pronunciation in the math room.

Anonymous

@infinitesimal Oh yeah? That's interesting.

Anonymous

I know some of it is actually dialectal

Anonymous

5:30 PM

Prime versus dash is an example that came up on ELL not too long ago

Damkerng T.

@infinitesimal I guess people in math room would care about that stuff the most.

Anonymous

I only know that dash is used in some dialects in English because it was borrowed into Japanese! And I used to wonder, why "dash"?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Yes, I remember that!

@snailboat Because dash in their minds doesn't have to be horizontal?

Anonymous

If I hadn't encountered it in a Japanese context, I think ELL might have been the first time I'd ever seen it :-)

Damkerng T.

Admittedly, my high school math teacher used "dash".

Strange, I should have more than one high school math teacher, but I can recall just one.

Anonymous

5:33 PM

@DamkerngT. Well, originally it comes from the verb, if you can imagine dashing your pen against the page, or chalk against the board

Anonymous

Leading to the meaning given in the OED as "a hasty stroke of the pen"

Damkerng T.

@snailboat That's exactly the way I learned it! He would "dash" it on the blackboard.

infinitesimal

Nobody says the dash in a phone number?

Anonymous

Which led to "7. A stroke or line (usually short and straight) made with a pen or the like, or resembling one so made"

Damkerng T.

I think some people do.

Anonymous

5:34 PM

@DamkerngT. Really? Hmm.

Anonymous

I guess I can believe that!

Anonymous

In the US, we almost never pronounce phone numbers that way. We most commonly pronounce groups of numbers, like one one one, two two two, three three three three

Damkerng T.

I remember in one of my old apps, I had to filter out those extra things people added to their phone numbers.

Anonymous

With pauses in between

Anonymous

In writing, we use dashes, or less often periods or other things

Damkerng T.

5:35 PM

Parentheses, even!

Anonymous

Some people write phone numbers like 123.456.7890

infinitesimal

Or time as 1.30

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. The standard way in the US is supposed to be parentheses around the area code and a dash between the prefix and the rest of the number: (123) 456-7890

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

@infinitesimal Yeah, I've never gotten used to that either―is that another regional thing? Like, is it totally normal in some places?

infinitesimal

5:37 PM

It is European

Anonymous

Ahh, I see!

Anonymous

I think originally we could dial 4-digit numbers if they went to the local exchange, but then we ended up having to dial 7-digit numbers, including the exchange prefix, even locally

Anonymous

And these days I just think of North American numbers as being ten digits long

Damkerng T.

Ahh... I thought it was longer than ten!

A few years back, I had to modify my telephone billing program to handle another digit added to all telephone numbers countrywide.

The main reason was because the mobile phone.

Anonymous

Well, there's also the 1 at the beginning, but people rarely enter that in the US

Damkerng T.

5:40 PM

We were running out of room for more mobile phones!

Anonymous

Ahh

Anonymous

Where and when I grew up, Chicagoland had one area code, 312

Anonymous

For both the city itself and the surrounding area

Anonymous

These days it's got 815 779 630 331 224 847 773 708 as well as the original 312

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Anonymous

5:42 PM

Originally they separated them into areas, so you could still dial without the area code in your local area

Damkerng T.

I wonder why the numbers look random!

Anonymous

But eventually they started overlapping

Anonymous

Ah, there are people who know about that sort of thing, but I am not one of them :-)

Anonymous

So now in Chicagoland it's normal to dial 10-digit numbers all the time

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Anonymous

5:43 PM

Then again,

Anonymous

I imagine most people enter numbers into their cell phones rather than dialing by hand these days :-)

Damkerng T.

True!

Anonymous

I'm afraid I don't know any phone numbers anymore!

Anonymous

I only know my own!

Damkerng T.

And presumably younger people nowadays can type digits faster than me.

@snailboat Hey, you're better than me!

I sometimes forget even my own!

Anonymous

5:44 PM

@DamkerngT. It took me a while to learn, but I did it! :-)

Damkerng T.

What just happened a few hours ago:

Call center: Please enter your 16-digit credit card number.

Damkerng: tap-tap-tap-tap tap-tap-tap...

Call Center: You didn't enter the number in time. Please enter your 16-digit credit card number.

Anonymous

Oh no!

Damkerng T.

Damkerng: Ah! tap-tap-tap-tap tap-tap-tap...

Anonymous

I've had that happen, too. Impatient computers!

Damkerng T.

Indeed!

Anonymous

5:49 PM

It's interesting to me how ½ is pronounced ni-bun no ichi in Japanese, with the denominator first, and I've seen Japanese people write the denominator first when writing the fraction

Anonymous

So mentally perhaps it comes first

Anonymous

But typing, in Japanese you see "1/2" often enough

Anonymous

So in cases like that they're typing 1/2 and thinking ni-bun no ichi, presumably? :-)

Damkerng T.

I doubt that!

Anonymous

What do you think?

Damkerng T.

5:51 PM

Typing 1 and think ni-bun?

I think they must remap it in their head before typing.

Anonymous

Well, ni-bun no ichi is such a basic thing, like English one half, that it's probably easy to process it as a single chunk

Damkerng T.

Just the split second before they type 1.

Anonymous

I was thinking perhaps Japanese speakers are used to thinking about fractions from both directions :-)

Damkerng T.

I guess so!

I think Thai people also do that with adjectives when they speak English.

รถสีแดง = red car

รถ = car, สีแดง = red

Anonymous

What do Thai speakers think of postpositive adjectives? :-)

Damkerng T.

5:55 PM

Perfect!

Hee

Absolutely natural! :-)

The effect of viewing the same ad repeatedly.

Divergent #1: Oh, it doesn't look as good as I thought.

Divergent #2: Looks okay.

Divergent #3: Actually, it's pretty good.

Divergent #4: Oh, this is great! I must watch it whenever possible!

Anonymous

Brainwashing at its finest!

Damkerng T.

Yes!

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