English Language Learners

F.E.

5:41 AM

. . . scratch . . .

F.E.

5:58 AM

►

For those "Frozen" fans out there . . . :D

fahdijbeli

11:44 AM

hi!!

Damkerng T.

1:46 PM

Hi! :-)

Damkerng T.

3:23 PM

Well, there is also the fact that Indian English is a distinct language, as different in its ways from American or British standards as Lallans Scots is. It's syllable-timed, not stress-timed, which means the intonations are completely different, and you have no idea how much it can screw up one's language perception when the intonation and stress don't contribute. It's like reading a long sign in strange print as you drive past it. This is because Indian English is spoken very fast (like most syllable-timed languages). The first rule I would suggest is Slow Down. — John Lawler 21 mins ago

F.E.

@DamkerngT. Er, . . . no comment. :)

1

Q: 'as if I had' versus 'as if I have'

Is that right that I must use past tense after as if/as though? For example: I don't just want to help him. It's not as if I had (instead of have) no money. N

grammar

> "He's behaving as if he was/were the king of the world."

Both versions ("was" and "were") are fine here, as the situation is modally remote or counterfactual.

Damkerng T.

@F.E. I like the way FumbleFingers put it.

F.E.

@DamkerngT. Except his post has some errors in it.

Damkerng T.

Ahh... Which part? I might've missed them.

F.E.

Actually, I preferred the other answer, until it got edited. :)

Damkerng T.

3:34 PM

But if he didn't edit, he would say something opposed to his source.

F.E.

@DamkerngT. How so?

Damkerng T.

I like this part in FF's answer:

> Note that in practice many native speakers today would use was rather than were there - but in neither case is there any suggestion of past. Also note this example...

@F.E. Give me the reason why his source would convince him that the was version is good.

To me, it's better to say that both versions are possible.

F.E.

@DamkerngT. It would even be better if the "today" part was struck out. For too many pedants think that the "was" usage is, er, recent--and so, some might read that interpretation into it.

Damkerng T.

Ahh... nods

F.E.

@DamkerngT. I merely glanced at that source he provided--I don't spend my time nowadays actually reading stuff like that. :)

Actually, there's an example somewhat similar in CGEL. :)

Damkerng T.

3:41 PM

> She’s behaving as if she were the Queen of England!
(She is not the Queen of England, but she is acting as if she is very important)

F.E.

On page 86 in your copy of CGEL . . . um, you do have a copy handy, yes? :)

Damkerng T.

(From his source)

F.E.

You're going to make me hurt my eyes by making me go back and skim that article, er, okay . . . I'm going to take another painful look-see . . . :(

Damkerng T.

I guess it's beyond the first two chapters, probably?

F.E.

@DamkerngT. Yup. Chapter 3 "The verb". :)

Damkerng T.

3:42 PM

@F.E. You don't have to. I just quoted that for you.

F.E.

@DamkerngT. I know, but I wanted to see if the author had at least mentioned the use of the preterite for modal remoteness.

The example you copied is using the irrealis "were".

Damkerng T.

Now, I have to read the article more carefully. :-)

Ahh

> As if can also used to compare things, but in a way that says the comparison is not true. If you want to emphasize that something is not true, it’s possible to use a past tense after as if. In American English it’s common to use were:

F.E.

@DamkerngT. Don't, for if you do, you'll damage your eyes.

Damkerng T.

I think that's fair enough.

@F.E. LOL

F.E.

@DamkerngT. Good find. Better you ruin your eyes than for me.

Damkerng T.

3:47 PM

I still think it's weird that the OP used "I don't just want to ..." instead of "I just don't want to ..."

I'm not sure, but some people might allow both to mean the same thing.

F.E.

But here's the example in CGEL:

> (page 86) [32.i] He talks to me as if I were a child. [modal remoteness]

> Preterite was, however, is widely used instead of irrealis were in these constructions, especially in informal style: He talks to me as if I was a child. . . .

@DamkerngT. I corrected it in my edit (which is waiting approval). The OP's version is probably ungrammatical.

Damkerng T.

Ahh.. That's what I thought. I'm not sure if AmE has anything to do with the tendency of the usage as that site mentions.

F.E.

@DamkerngT. AmE teachers seem to only teach irrealis "were" in grade school--and ignore completely the modal preterite usage.

Damkerng T.

@F.E. Thanks!

F.E.

Notice the present tense use in CGEL's example: He talks to me as if I was a child.

Damkerng T.

3:51 PM

nods

F.E.

That is similar to the OP's example: It's not as if I had no money.

Though, the OP's example does have a negative "not" in it.

Damkerng T.

Would you find the present tense odd?

> It's not as if I have no money.

I think this one is a bit tricky because it has both not and no.

F.E.

It's the negative "not" that might cause complications (but let us let the Great Snail One have that one to worry about). :)

The present tense in "It's" is letting us know that the present time is being talked about, and so, that means that the preterite in the subordinate "as if" clause is most likely intended to be a modal remote use of the preterite (i.e. modal preterite).

Damkerng T.

I bet that even after having their answers, the OP will still be confused by the as if usage. (It's unfortunate that they used a negative example.)

F.E.

@DamkerngT. I had been looking at that OP's example as though the negative "not" was not a factor (not sure if I can do that or not--but I haven't yet had any coffee).

Damkerng T.

4:01 PM

Asking questions is in fact an art, too!

Ahh

F.E.

But assuming that I can ignore that "not" in there, then the "had" is probably intended by the speaker to be a modal preterite.

Damkerng T.

I think cancelling the negatives makes the result sound weird:

> It's as if I had money.

F.E.

@DamkerngT. The negatives don't cancel out (I don't think).

Damkerng T.

Hmm... Probably not that weird!

F.E.

Hmm, let's compare to: It's not (that) I have no money.

Here, you can't replace the "have" with "had", for if you do, then you are talking about the past time sphere for that situation--not the present time.

Damkerng T.

4:05 PM

Agreed.

F.E.

E.g. It's not (that) I had no money (yesterday).

So, the OP's example seems structured like the example(s) in CGEL--where the "as if" allows a modal preterite for a present time situation. Or could it be ambiguous?

Damkerng T.

It was ambiguous to me when I read "I don't just want to help ..."

F.E.

@DamkerngT. Yes, I'm thinking that too. :)

That the OP's 2nd sentence, by itself, is ambiguous; but in that context of the whole excerpt, it ends up being interpreted as a modal preterite since it is used to describe a present time situation. :)

Damkerng T.

The way the OP wrote it makes me unsure whether the OP was rich or not. :)

> I'm so rich, but I just don't want to help him.
I'm so poor, so I can't help him even if I want to. (And actually, I want to do more than just helping him!)

F.E.

@DamkerngT. Oh, I misread that. I was reading it as saying "until" instead of "when".

> I just don't want to help him. It's not as if I had no money.

I'm interpreting that as: Right now, I don't want to help him. (Not now, and probably not yesterday either.) Right now, I do have money, but I won't lend any to him.

Damkerng T.

4:15 PM

I thinks that's more likely. Still, I can't say I'm sure the OP really thought that.

(I might think about it too much, anyway. :-)

F.E.

It's that negative "not" that makes me unsure. For that "not" is already saying that the subordinate clause is not true (counter-factual)--and so, there is no need for a modal preterite. . . .

But the speaker might still put that modal preterite in there, explicitly to tell the addressee that he actually does have money.

That negation stuff, in general, is always a headache for me. :)

Damkerng T.

I think, in this construction "It's not as if I ...", both had and have can be used for something true.

(And by extension, I think both had and have can be used for something not true, too!)

> It's not as if I can fly.
It's not as if I could fly.

F.E.

There's an interesting grammatical question over on ELU that might get kicked over to ELL. If it does, I might even write an answer post for it. :)

Damkerng T.

(I haven't upgraded myself with wings yet. Not yet. :-)

I guess it's unlikely to be migrated over here.

F.E.

1

Q: Singular or plural form of verb after "whether"

Which of two following sentences is correct? Depending on whether a birth or a death occurs , we have... Depending on whether a birth or a death occur, we have...

grammaticality grammatical-number

ELU doesn't like grammar questions! :D

Maybe I ought to help with that by voting . . . :D

Damkerng T.

4:24 PM

LOL

F.E.

It's a good one, because it deals with coordination within a subject as to how it affects subject-verb agreement, and also involves a possible subjunctive . . . all neat stuff!

Damkerng T.

nods -- You can read my mind. Subjunctive was lurking in my head indeed.

F.E.

Yes, I would like that one, for the grammatical answer would differ from many pedant's answers that are commonly found on the web.

@DamkerngT. And so, both versions would be possible. :)

Though their acceptability might vary among the various English speakers.

Damkerng T.

nods -- Probably unsafe in typical academic papers.

F.E.

> Depending on whether a birth or a death occurs/occur, we have . . .

Now, CGEL does discuss stuff like this. :)

Damkerng T.

4:30 PM

Hah!

F.E.

I can't have coffee for another 7 hours or so. :(

I haven't even gotten up yet.

Damkerng T.

Aww...

75

Q: Why did the Matrix simulate 1999 instead of a pre-computer year?

In The Matrix, the people within the Matrix live in a simulated version of the year 1999. It's already been asked why the machines bothered with the Matrix at all, but let's assume that they had a good reason. My question is: why simulate 1999 or a similar year in which computers are prevalent? ...

the-matrix

F.E.

See, you're all up and bright-eyed, as it's about 11:30 PM for you.

Damkerng T.

@F.E. I'm a little sleepy, actually. :)

F.E.

I think I'll go and get myself up (shower and what-not) . . . till later :)

Damkerng T.

4:37 PM

See you soon! :)

Damkerng T.

1

Q: What is the difference between "mass nouns" and "abstract nouns"?

Which kind of words are "mass nouns"? and which kind of words are "abstract nouns"? What is the difference between them?

difference usage

It's another kind of dictionary-like questions. Instead of asking about words, they ask about grammar terminologies.

Some folks might think it's about language learning. It might be so. It might be.

I skipped casting my vote on it. :)

F.E.

6:53 PM

1

Q: "I went to the hotel you were staying at" vs. "you stayed at"

Is there a difference in meaning between these two sentences? I went to the hotel you were staying at when you were in New York. I went to the hotel you stayed at when you were in New York. At least one NS thinks there is. tchrist said in this comment One reading is that they went to the...

meaning grammaticality differences simple-past progressive-aspect

That's a nice grammar question. :)

How does the use of the progressive construction affect the possible interpretations of the sentence.

Like, why might a speaker choose one version over the other.

F.E.

7:06 PM

1

Q: In comparison construction, can 'that' be recovered as in relative clause?

[i] This is the watch (that) I lost. [ii] This is the same watch as (that) I lost. It is said accusative relative words can be dropped as in [i]. CGEL saying there are omissions in adjuncts of comparison, I wonder if there is the omission in [ii] like that in [i]. From the following case ...

comparison relative-clauses

That's interesting too. :)

But comparatives, them be so messy . . .

Anonymous

9:11 PM

@F.E. I flagged it for migration to ELL, since the ELU folks don't want it

Anonymous

@F.E. Hey! I deny any and all accusations of capital-Greatness!

Anonymous

:-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Only the mods can migrate questions, maybe?

By the way, hello!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. That's right, which I why I flagged it

Anonymous

Non-moderators can migrate to certain non-beta sites, particularly the same site's meta

Anonymous

9:21 PM

But for design flaw reasons, beta sites are treated differently than full sites in terms of migration

Anonymous

I think they made that decision when betas only lasted 90 days

Damkerng T.

Ahh

fahdijbeli

11:16 PM

what does mean this word "tweenhood" ?

you konw it ?

For most of my life, I've assumed that the grotesque amounts of coffee I began drinking around age 12
to keep up with my nightly homework load had something to do with the fact that I grew up to be a
good 2-to-3 inches shorter than my pediatrician predicted. Coffee, as we've all heard, is supposed to
stunt a child's growth. And I guzzled it from my tweenhood on.

Anonymous

11:31 PM

@fahdijbeli Ah, yes, the tweens

Anonymous

First, your teenhood is when you're a teenager. (Not that people say teenhood much, but if they did, that's what they'd mean by it)

Anonymous

Tween is a term derived from between:

Anonymous

Tween (demographic)

A tween is a person who is between the ages of 10 to 12 years old. The term is often described in popular media as referring to a preadolescent (usually female) who is at the "in-between" stage in their development when they are considered "too old for toys, too young for boys". However, the word is older than its present use as an advertising gimmick. The word tween dates at least back to the late 1930s when J.R.R. Tolkien used it to describe that age of irresponsibility after teenage. == Definition == Tweens as a marketing demographic are defined as in-between being a child and a teen. They share...

Anonymous

So your tweenhood would be the time you're about that age.

Anonymous

That is, your tweenhood is when you're a tween, just as your childhood is when you're a child.

Anonymous

11:32 PM

Does that help?

Anonymous

Tweenhood is not a word people commonly say, but I think most people would understand it just fine.

Damkerng T.

11:57 PM

Word of the day: nunchucks

It's what Bruce Lee used in several of his movies.

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English Language Learners