English Language Learners - 2014-08-01

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12:40 AM

good morning

3 hours later…

Anonymous

3:32 AM

@happenask Good morning, happenask!

4:22 AM

hi

user116848

hi

hi

4 hours later…

8:09 AM

Hi

I can say "I will always here" ?

Anonymous

8:39 AM

No, the sentence needs a main verb.

For example, "I will always be here."

@fahdijbeli or "I was always here."

hello

hello

nice room i m looking for learning English please tell me if i m writing wrong

sure

8:47 AM

so may i know about you

@skullpatrol ah ok thanks freind

@fahdijbeli thanks for asking :)

@skullpatrol thanks a lots :)

:)

I never liked spelling anyway...

...too much work for the memory.

;)

9:09 AM

@skullpatrol Suppose that I have submitted a job application. And now I am waiting for the result. Do I say "I am waiting for an answer from the company" or "I am waiting for the answer from the company" ?

Which article do I use?

@Nico

@AndoMasahashi I would use "an" and probably I'd also remove "from the company" (since it's clear from the context).

@Nico ok

@snailboat As StoneyB says, proper noun nails it. I'd like to find more about the characterisation of "proper nouns" as a part of speech. Wikipedia has this footnote that suggests they've been described by H&P in CGEG.

9:27 AM

@AndoMasahashi I agree with Nico :)

yes

Anonymous

Or "I'm still waiting to hear back about the job"

"an" is like "I'm waiting for any answer"

@snailboat you are right

Anonymous

Did my answer about twins confuse anyone else?

9:30 AM

that looks something different and good one

Anonymous

I got a comment suggesting that it didn't make sense, but I'm too tired to think it through properly

How about: "she's got a twin brother"?

... reading snailboat's answer ...

Anonymous

It's what I get for writing answers instead of sleeping

Anonymous

I deliver nonsense unto the internet

Anonymous

My phone insisted that unto be corrected to into but I changed it back six times and it gave up

9:36 AM

@snailboat To bed then! :p

Anonymous

Fine, then, I zapped it. :-)

How is this possible "She and her older brother are twins."?

They're twins! It'd be older by what? minutes?

Anonymous

Older of the two brothers

Anonymous

Yep, it caused confusion all around... :-)

The rest of the answer is perfectly cromulent!

Anonymous

9:40 AM

It made sense to me when I wrote it. I hate to say this, but it still does!

It makes sense once you think about it, but it involves some mental acrobatics.

Anonymous

I don't want to say other brother

Anonymous

It's the pits! This is no time to rhyme!

> She's a twin to her other brother

The only thing this sentence communicates is that she's got a twin brother.

Anonymous

Can't say another

Anonymous

9:43 AM

That's not true

Anonymous

It communicates that she has at least two brothers

You're right.

Anonymous

She's got to be twins with one or the other, the older or the younger

I think now you're whole answer makes sense to me.

Let's not get into the "twins paradox" :D

Anonymous

9:45 AM

Ah, you can phrase it more clearly like: "She's twins with the older brother"

Anonymous

"She and the older brother are twins"

Before I had skimmed through Maulik's question and missed the second hald of the question.

I think your suggestion:

> She and her older brother are twins.

needs prior context to make sense.

Anonymous

Change her to the

One should know that she has two brothers before understanding that sentence.

Anonymous

Assuming context allows it

Anonymous

9:48 AM

Yes

Anonymous

I'll try to fix the answer tomorrow

@snailboat That sounds better

user116848

Hi guys

s/you're/your/ chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/16896193#16896193

s/hald/half/ chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/16896203#16896203

Hi pal :)

1 hour later…

user116848

11:16 AM

@snailboat If I have a related question (relating to what I just asked on the main site), which is long enough with some context therefore can't ask in comments so if I ask it on the main site will it be considered duplicate??

user116848

Because I have such a question.

user116848

Ping me.

1:03 PM

@Arrowfar Related doesn't mean duplicate, imo.

user116848

Hi Damkerng

Hi!

user116848

I wanted to ask such a question so I thought what's the policy on that.

I'd say it's more about our users' opinions.

If it looks like a duplicate question enough, it will be likely that someone will mark it as duplicate, and the piling-on effect will kick in.

My general idea of duplicate is the question is answerable by another question.

user116848

Yeah but my question is related to what I asked this morning on the main site. But my new question is not covered by the answers the users gave and it's a long question because I have to show some context in it. So I thought I should ask here what would happen because I reckon questions are very easily marked as duplicate by someone on the main site. At least I have noticed that. However I am not opposed to it.

user116848

1:17 PM

Okay I'll ask here first. I asked the following question this morning.

user116848

2

Q: Alternative ways of saying "...., right?"

What are some alternative ways of confirming a point, situation, etc. apart from saying “…, right?” at the end of a sentence to make it a question? (e.g. You are going tomorrow on the 11:30 flight, right?) What are some good similar ways to ask the same question (in a way that we are confirming ...

word-choice sentence-structure

user116848

But my new query is:

user116848

What’s the good tag question here apart from “…, right?”:

A (says): “Hey, buddy (harshly). Why do always keep the lights on in this room after you leave?”

B (says): “I always switch off the lights when I leave the room, (…?)” ( saying “Don’t I?” will look odd I guess. So any good question tags to be used here?)

(If the other person is in a bickering mood, saying “…, right?” will not seem strong I guess, because he wants to deal with the other person harshly)

user116848

Okay I'll try asking on the site too....

Ah, sorry, I was afk... Let me read what you wrote for a while.

@Arrowfar Actually, I think don't I? is fine. So is right?.

user116848

1:25 PM

So "Don't I" is fine. And some other alternatives if you can think of any?

If you are asking for a question tag, they're probably the safe ones.

I know that no? is popular enough (not only in InE).

If you don't like right because it sounds too short, you can always say "Am I right?" or "Am I correct?" -- Some people just say "Correct?"

(Though "correct?" could sound a bit impolite or harsh.)

Actually, the alternatives posted by Bob the zealot (in the old one) are quite good.

user116848

Yeah I read the question tag article on the internet but here in this situation couldn't find any suitable ones. Damks "no?" doesn't sound good. I would never use it. But thanks for the help anyways. Let's see what snailboat says.

I know that it might not sound as good to many learners, even though it's what people really say, informally.

One big problem among most non-native speakers is that we kind of know what is correct and what not, but don't know we should use it when.

In a sense, we don't completely know what is correct and what not, even though we think we know it.

user116848

You are right. That's why I asked :)

@Arrowfar You could use innit, innit? :)

1:38 PM

I guess this kind of thing would come naturally, but it takes time. :)

user116848

@Nico Yes, Nico I read about "innit" or "isn't it" too.

Ahh... I guessed right! It's BrE.

> "Now I can start calling you that, INNIT!" (can't I?)

> "We need to decide what to do about that now innit." (don't we?)

The linked post is not that long.

@Arrowfar Hmm... but why would you want to express it as a question (I think you don't have to)?

user116848

@DamkerngT. Okay. So how do I make my statement strong for the other bickering person?

1:43 PM

Some people look down on the use of question tags (not only innit)

A milder version might be along the line of "Jeez!".

I found an example of "Very fabulous, no?" -- youtube.com/…

user image

^What is SFE?

safe?

Ahh! That's very convincing!

1:48 PM

urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Blad

Ahh... I thought it was related to lad.

2:45 PM

Capt. Thomas Fuller: No, no not just off S.W.A.T., off the force. You feel me? -- Hondo: Oh yeah, I feel you. -- S.W.A.T. (2003) ;-) — Damkerng T. 3 mins ago

@Arrowfar That's not a not-so-strong version you're looking for, btw. It's actually very strong. :-)

user116848

@DamkerngT. I see. Yes, I have heard it in so many movies but I personally don't use it because this expression looks kinda street language :) Don't you agree? :)

I think it was, but it seems like it's spread out.

user116848

I didn't know. But I only see it in rough movies and tv shows....

I bet that some politicians use it sometimes. (Just a speculation, anyway.)

(Though it might be used a little differently, e.g., "We don't just understand the problem. We feel it!")

user116848

Oh, I didn't know that.

2:56 PM

> We don't just understand them, we feel what they do. Our connection goes beyond sense to sensibility. We share their point of view. For nearly 20 years, AE ...

^Something random from the web.

I think basically, understand or know indicates that the knowledge or information is now shared, but feel is beyond that, it shares emotions too.

3:13 PM

-1

Q: Speaking test in Cambridge Certifcation

I'm aiming the Cambridge Advanced English Certification and, I want to know if on the speaking test, the examiner concern about the skills in a British English pronunciation, or don't matter the accent, and what really matter is your skills in english pronunciation regardless your accent.

I don't know what they actually do, but it would be strange if an American or an Australian couldn't pass the test. :-)

I tried to think of whether this was valid, "Is it that the sky is blue", "is the sky blue", however, no; this does not sound correct to me. I don't know of any time I would say "that" to define a fact. — Sammaye 19 mins ago

Ahh... Another curious case.

0

Q: 'provide' vs 'provide for'

What are the similarities and differences? In the example below, what differs in using (just) provide ? From http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/provide?q=PROVIDE+for#provide__11: provide = Make available for use; supply 2.2. provide for = (Of a law) enable or allow (s...

difference legal

@Nico I wonder what that usage dictionary says about this provide for.

3:53 PM

0

Q: What does "on the ground" mean?

Will you tell me what "on the ground" means in the sentences below? Sentence: The only answer is to take immediate action -- quite ambitious action on the ground - and for that we need cooperation among Governments, civil society, and business communities and all partners.

This question makes me feel like we need another tag: journalism.

Hmm... Maybe news, but this is not news.

4:16 PM

:)

4:56 PM

@DamkerngT. It has entries for provide, provided and providing. None of them discuss "provide for".

wait I'm lying

"When provide is ised intransitively, it is most often used with for"

> ... provide for common defense

> And no sooner he's provided for thatn he turns on you

> ... an Automobile Accident Compnesation Board would provide for strict liability

> The contract provided for increased wages...

Anonymous

@Arrowfar When you ask a related question, it's helpful to point out to people that you're building on the earlier question, but you're asking something additional that hasn't been answered yet.

Anonymous

That way they know not to close it as a duplicate.

Anonymous

@Arrowfar Using ", no?" as a question tag is non-standard

Anonymous

Of course, native speakers use a lot of non-standard language. In this case, it might have the feeling of borrowing from another language

"When provide is used transitively to mean to supply or make available, the recipient of the provision is freuqently named in a PP beginning with for or to"

Anonymous

5:02 PM

Not using ", no?" is of course just fine. I think I hardly ever use it.

Anonymous

I occasionally use the non-standard question tag ", yeah?"

> .... a discontent which has provided fertile soil for the agitator

Anonymous

I think I picked it up after moving to California.

Anonymous

@Nico Sounds accurate!

Anonymous

It can also be used ditransitively.

5:04 PM

"But when provide is used transitively to mean * to make something available to*, the thing being provided is usally named in a PP introduced by with"

> The bereaved woman was provide with a collection of gruesome anecdotes

Anonymous

Hmm, I like the description but not the example

> a collection of short stories, like a skectch-book, may provide him with an ideal form

Anonymous

> We built them a luxurious coop, and provided them with warmth, food, drink, and 16 acres to roam.

@snailboat The first tow examples under this parapgraph are in passive voice

Anonymous

> To assist the participants in organizing their essays, the investigators provided them with a set of instructions and a detailed outline, shown in Appendix A.

Anonymous

5:07 PM

> As part of the curriculum, students were provided with activities to refine their basic math skills.

It lists two more meanings "to stipulate" and "provide against"

Anonymous

(students were given activities to refine their basic math skills)

@snailboat Does it count as ditransitivity when is passive voice?

Anonymous

@Nico Yes

Anonymous

I mean

5:12 PM

in active voice, it seems a PP is preferred

Anonymous

Obviously the verb's valency goes down by one, but we can clearly relate it to the ditransitive use of the verb

Anonymous

The question about alternatives to ", right?" is a good one

Anonymous

Of course, saying ", right?" is fine

I think this is worth an answer, but I need to finish up a few other things before going home.

Anonymous

But there are plenty of ways to phrase the same thing without using a question tag

Anonymous

5:15 PM

(Or with a different tag, in many cases)

@snailboat almost always

Anonymous

@Nico In a few cases, ", right?" is the only standard question tag

question tags are adictive, it's best to minimise their use.

Anonymous

They are, aren't they? :-)

Anonymous

I've never heard anyone suggesting minimizing their use before, though

5:18 PM

I think so, innit?

Anonymous

Ah, but I live in AmE-land, where innit does not exist

Anonymous

Besides, innit isn't necessarily taken as a question tag

Anonymous

It can be used for simple emphasis

In BrE they're used more often, to the point that sometimes they become a bad habit

Innit is just the extreme case.

Anonymous

London innit is an invariant form which is only sometimes a question tag

Anonymous

5:22 PM

I wouldn't characterize it as a bad habit either, just a matter of dialect

I found a brilliant definition in the UD, they suggest that innit basically replaces a period at the end of a sentence.

@snailboat Unfortunately, people get judged by their dialects.

Anonymous

Of course, which is why part of being educated is learning to speak Standard English.

Anonymous

But educated speakers of Standard English regularly use non-standard language as well

Anonymous

The point is to use the register that's appropriate to the context

Anonymous

Not to give up non-standard speech because of a perception that it's somehow inferior

Anonymous

5:25 PM

There's nothing intrinsically superior about Standard English

Anonymous

It's just expected of people socially in many situations.

For some people, being caught saying an innit in public is as bad as being caught with your pants down.

Anonymous

Oh, society!

Maybe it's my fault. I've come across very posh people.

Anonymous

There's often a perception that non-standard dialects are incorrect.

Anonymous

5:29 PM

People characterize them as versions of Standard English with mistakes

Anonymous

But this is silly

Anonymous

And even harmful

Anonymous

Non-standard varieties of English have their own grammar which is often more complex than the standard variety

Anonymous

And people who can seamlessly switch from a non-standard to standard and back again certainly aren't making errors when they do so

I'm afraid it's not just a language thing. It goes deeper into the society.

Anonymous

5:32 PM

Yes, social standing is important to people

My impression is that this is jsut a manifestation (I'm only talking about the UK) of social differences.

@Nico Ahh... Thanks!

Anonymous

@Nico People look down on each other's language the world over

I know. I'm trying to compare UK and Spain.

I feel the social hierarchy in Spain is flatter and more homogeneous.

In the UK, I have the impression, the school where you study matters a lot.

People actully list in their CV what schools they've attended!

By schools, I mean primary and secondary education.

Sometimes I'm confused by the terms CV and resume. They're the same thing with different names to me.

5:37 PM

I don't think it's by chance that most UK Prime ministers have studied at Eton.

Is resumé AmE?

@Nico I think that's common in Thailand too.

Oh, Macmillan seems to say so!

Anonymous

6:05 PM

Yeah, I think that's BrE vs AmE

Anonymous

Though I think either term would be understood anywhere

Anonymous

@Nico Which is silly :-)

Anonymous

6:40 PM

I don't even think university-level education is particularly relevant, unless you went to a very good or a very bad school, or if a degree is required for legal reasons

Anonymous

I've interviewed too many people with degrees who seemingly managed to earn them without learning anything along the way

Anonymous

I think degrees from only a few colleges in the US are worth paying attention to

Selling doctoral degrees on the web is also a good business. :-)

Anonymous

Haha!

There are lots of buyers here. :)

Anonymous

6:43 PM

Yes, there are some things you can put on a resume which put you below people with no formal education :-)

Anonymous

Degrees can matter for other reasons, though.

Anonymous

Like immigration laws.

Ahh

By the way, "Doing Theses For You" is also another popular business here.

Anonymous

Yeah, since college has become the new high school in the US, a lot of students pay people to do the actual work for them so they can get a piece of paper to help them get a job

Anonymous

So then you get things like Turnitin

6:47 PM

Ahh

Anonymous

Of course, that won't stop someone who commissions original work, assuming the person they've paid for their dishonesty is being honest with them

I've watched an interview with ex-theses-maker once. She was a real pro. You could customize everything, writing style, research data, topic, etc. She would even fake some errors to make it look real!

Anonymous

Hah

I think she mentioned that she did 5-6 theses a month. Sometimes she reduced that number down to 4, to ensure the quality. Very ethical!

Actually, about ten years ago, I was asked to do that kind of thing too. (The person who asked this was a daughter of someone who knew my aunt. Both my aunt and her friend didn't know about this. I politely declined. She tried to pressure me into doing it. I politely declined again. I guess she could finally find someone else doing that for her. :-)

Anonymous

7:02 PM

I've never cheated on schoolwork or helped someone else cheat. It's hard to imagine doing, but I've read that a lot of people have

Anonymous

In high school once, a girl told me she copied off my test, and I deliberately wrote down the wrong answers on the next test, after which she got quite angry at me. (Please excuse my behavior, I was a child :-)

Hah!

I think she got a good lesson. :)

I agree.

Hi Everyone

I agree too.

Hi!

7:12 PM

Hello

Students out here too, pay for their certificates so they can get a job. I have seen people growing this way too.

Anonymous

I guess it happens all over the world

Anonymous

Also, hello!

We grow what we reward. :)

If we reward those who have certificates, I think it's only natural that people will do whatever way to get one or a few. :)

1

A: She's a twin to her brother? Is it correct?

These are all good options: Anne is Bob's twin. She is Bob's twin sister. Bob is her twin brother. Meet Anne, and her brother Charlie. Their brother Bob is over at the pub. Bob is Anne's twin. Meet Anne, and her brother Charlie. Their brother Bob is over at the pub. Anne and Bob are twins. ...

Anonymous

7:28 PM

@DamkerngT. Well, sure. We shouldn't be surprised people want to get pieces of paper.

Ahh... This reminds me of another motto of mine: When you can't express an idea in one sentence, do it in two (or more).

Anonymous

But we should be cautious with that sort of logic

Anonymous

You can equally well say it's only natural that people will rob banks, since we reward people who have money

Anonymous

And it's true, but it's probably not a moral statement

Anonymous

So it works better as a description than as a justification

7:31 PM

That's why we shouldn't reward them for doing those kinds of things; in fact, we would want some ways to discourage them!

Anonymous

The threat of punishment doesn't prevent people from taking action.

Anonymous

Not that sort, anyway.

It's too sad that it doesn't.

I find it sad that people can say 1/4 > 1/3 because 4 > 3 :(

Anonymous

People reason that they can get away with it, or they don't reason at all.

7:33 PM

@skullpatrol Aww!

Anonymous

@skullpatrol Did someone say that recently?

Anonymous

It's an opportunity to teach them something.

Yep

@snailboat Ah, some classics even encourage people to try to get away with it!

Anonymous

When ignorance makes you sad, you can turn it on its head and look at it as an opportunity :-)

Anonymous

7:37 PM

At least some of the time.

nods

In theory, yes.

Anonymous

I know it doesn't always work that way, unfortunately.

Anonymous

Somebody downvoted this answer. Why ??? — cpp_noname 7 hours ago

Anonymous

@cpp_noname Just for the sake of fun! You see many such instances here where downvoters enjoys being in-cognito but don't dare commenting. — Maulik V 3 hours ago

Anonymous

7:40 PM

@cpp_noname Probably because it gives the wrong answer for the wrong reason. — snailplane 47 secs ago

What!?

Anonymous

"for the sake of fun" doesn't strike me as a likely reason.

Same to me.

I think more than 80% of downvotes have good reasons.

Anonymous

I'm sure the site has some bad faith downvotes, but I don't think there's reason to believe very many of them are.

Anonymous

I think most people downvote when they believe an answer is wrong or not useful

7:44 PM

Instead of thinking, "I don't care", the answerer should look for the reason why they got a downvote more carefullly.

nods

Anonymous

There are times when someone downvotes and I think I disagree with their downvote, but I usually don't assume bad faith, I assume disagreement

On the other hand, I think only 40-60% of the upvotes are reliable.

Anonymous

There are a lot more upvotes.

Anonymous

I think many askers upvote the answers they receive out of gratitude

Ahh... That too.

Anonymous

7:45 PM

Sometimes they might do so mistakenly when they're convinced an answer has helped them, but it contains a mistake they were unable to find for themselves

using of any article has nothing to do with employment here. — Maulik V 10 hours ago

This comment strikes me as very confident.

Anonymous

I would personally phrase an answer in terms of information structure

Anonymous

I'm too lazy to write up an answer, though

Anonymous

I started one, but I scrapped it partway through

Anonymous

ELL is getting > 25 questions/day!

7:49 PM

Wow

Anonymous

Up from its initial 15-20/day, up from its low of 10/day

Ahh... I've noticed that. We have so many questions this week.

Anonymous

Japanese.SE is at 5.7/day

Anonymous

Which is less than ELL's ever gotten, but quite good for Japanese.SE :-)

What is 0.7 of a question :-)

An incomplete question?

7:51 PM

Hah!

It deserves an incomplete answer of 0.7

How can we write a 0.7 answer?

Answer 70% of the question

:-)

That's not an easy thing to do... What if I answered too much by just one percent? :-)

True, no one said it would be easy pal :D

Anonymous

7:58 PM

And the average Japanese family has 1.4 children

Anonymous

(Probably not the median… :-)

:D

Any way I gotta get some sleep, see ya'll later :-)

Anonymous

Rest well!

Ah, see you soon!

2 hours later…

Anonymous

10:11 PM

Oh, I really wish they'd disable the enter-to-submit-comment feature

Anonymous

It's disabled on Japanese.SE, which is good because it interferes with Japanese input

Anonymous

I'm used to using Japanese input for certain typographic symbols in non-Japanese contexts, too, though, and having the misfeature enabled on ELL means I submit half-completed comments accidentally :-/

Anonymous

(Stack Exchange knows about the problem, but they believe it's desirable to leave it enabled on sites other than, say, Japanese.SE)

10:35 PM

@snailboat Aww... But you could correct it, I think.

Anonymous

11:13 PM

As long as other people write decent answers, it's probably not necessary.

Anonymous

I think I upvoted at least one other answer to that question

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