English Language Learners

@Arrowfar You have it backwards. The version using backshift is the normal, usual, safer way to do it. To not use backshift preterites, you would need a good reason.

Hello everybody :D

user116848

Hi

user116848

6:20 AM

@F.E. But my reason is it looks simple. It is understandable too, right?

@Arrowfar If you keep avoiding the backshift preterite, you will risk saying some things in an ungrammatical way, and you will strike people as an EFL speaker.

user116848

Oh, I see.

user116848

But natives use this structure too I guess.

@Arrowfar Native English speakers don't use it anywhere as much as EFL speakers do.

user116848

Yeah.

6:22 AM

hai everybody

user116848

HI

I suspect the main reason for that is that backshift preterites isn't taught in most textbooks (other than indirect reported speech).

user116848

You are right there.

Though backshift isn't taught in most schools for native English speakers, we have the advantage in that we hear and speak it constantly to each other. EFL speakers don't have that opportunity.

user116848

True :)

6:24 AM

C and Java are programming languages, What are English, French, Spain? Natural languages?

Spain is a country, isn't it?

oh sorry

spanish

Yes, they are called "natural"

ok

user116848

@F.E. But then why when I talk to natives they don't pick on that? (Whether I am backshifting or not)

6:30 AM

@Arrowfar How do you know they haven't? They probably do notice that you sound a bit off--and so, mark you as a non-native speaker. Just because they don't explicitly mention it to you doesn't mean that they don't notice something about your speech.

user116848

Yes, it could be.

Speaking of "politeness", I recently ran across something that I had been looking for before in CGEL:

> (page 170) [19.iv] I'm hoping you can help me. - - - He was wondering if he could ask your advice.

> Finally, in [iv] the progressive adds an element of tentativeness: the first example avoids any danger of apparent brusqueness that might attach to I hope you can help me.

> The effect is similar to that of the preterite for diffidence/politeness (&4.3.2), and in the wonder example the preterite and the progressive features combine to produce this effect. It is not so clear how the politeness derives from the progressive.

> One factor is no doubt length/complexity: polite formulations are often more complex than ordinary ones (compare I wonder whether you'd mind opening the door with Open the door).

So, that's why you'll often see me use long and complex sentences, with much use of hedging words, maybe . . .

Short, brief sentences are risky, especially in the hands of an EFL speaker.

user116848

Yeah I remember you told me that :)

user116848

I will definitely check out page 170.

When in doubt, make the sentence longer, add modals ("would, could"), use the preterite instead of the simple present tense, use a perfect instead of the preterite, use many words instead of the simpler.

Also, use "Yes" instead of "Yeah", use "going to" instead of "gonna".

I'm careful when I use "gonna"--I will have already set up a context where that kind of usage, by me, will be safe to use.

When it ain't necessarily "safe", then use standard diction, and use the more accepted polite forms of speech--long winded sentences that are wordy, but due to being wordy, will often convey your message more accurately and will more likely prevent misunderstandings. (Notice how long and convoluted my last sentence was.)

In my last sentence, notice all the modals and hedging phrases that were used:

"will", "often", "more likely" . . .

One failing that I've often noticed with EFL speakers that are fluent in English is that: They aren't as fluent as they think they are. And that causes them problems and misunderstandings. -- It takes a lot of fluency to be able to communicate in short, brief sentences, without accidentally allowing a wrong interpretation.

A lot of meaning is communicated, either intentionally or accidentally, between the lines (of sentences).

Short sentences are dangerous for EFL speakers, in that they usually don't know how to prevent the wrong possible interpretations, especially the covert ones.

Long sentences sorta spell a lot of stuff out, and so, help to prevent the wrong interpretations, especially the covert (between the lines) ones.

user116848

6:54 AM

Yeah, I try to speak clearly too, and not go too fast.

Also, it takes the speaker a lot of effort to use a lot of words when fewer might work--and that sorta indicates that the speaker is trying.

You need to lengthen your sentences.

Notice how my last sentence was relatively short; and so, it had a certain "punch" to it. It could easily be seen as being brusque.

When there's an understanding of familiarity between the parties in communication, then shorter sentences could be tried.

But if problems arise, then the parties will usually step back and resume with the longer sentences, the ones with more hedging and whatnot in them.

Short sentences are dangerous--especially for EFL speakers.

Short sentences are often dangerous for native English speakers.

user116848

@F.E. Nods, Right. But some linguists say that a speaker has to be concise. Like (for example) if I call to some office to ask about some information, but if I say long winded sentences they might just ignore me or could get confused as to what I am trying to say. (I have noticed that!). What do you think? It doesn't work always, right? Especially on phones where expressions and writing is not visible).

@Arrowfar That is a different situation. There, it is customer to service provider.

Time is money for them.

user116848

Oh, that hahaha

Social situations are different.

user116848

7:02 AM

Hmm. So they are just doing their business. I see

@Arrowfar Becareful where you use that: referring to "hahaha". It is extremely informal.

You'll notice that I never use it.

user116848

@F.E. So "haha" then? :D

No. Don't use it, except when you want to appear as being very "young".

When in doubt, speak standard English.

user116848

Well, I am 27. You? If you don't mind me telling, that is.

Too many EFL speakers are assuming that the "chat-speak" and "text-speak" is standard English. It ain't.

@Arrowfar I'm more than double that.

user116848

7:05 AM

I see. So only "ha"?? :)

user116848

@F.E. So you are always this formal?

I'm not being formal.

user116848

Right :)

You need to learn what standard English is, and use that as your default way of speaking.

After you've established familiarity with people, then you can become a bit more informal, when it's safe to do so.

user116848

Well, thanks for telling me all that. I appreciate it very much, coming from a native that is.

user116848

7:08 AM

Hmm. With unfamiliar people it looks kinda creepy, you are right.

But with strangers, when you first start out, you should try to stick to standard English, and try to use the more "polite" way of wording stuff. Just to be safe, and to reduce the chances of being misunderstood.

user116848

But I say normal length sentences, because I am afraid that if I speak more I might make more mistakes and offend someone.

@Arrowfar It's the opposite. There's safety in wordiness: that's why politicians speak long and convoluted sentences all the time. Really.

user116848

Yeah they do. But they are politicians, right? :D

Short sentences are very powerful. But easily misused.

And easily misunderstood.

When an EFL speaker uses a long-winded, "polite" worded sentence, the addressee can quickly see that the speaker is an EFL speaker and so, allow the speaker some extra leeway--something that wouldn't be given to a supposedly native English speaker.

You should re-read that CGEL example I had copied in earlier:

> One factor is no doubt length/complexity: polite formulations are often more complex than ordinary ones (compare I wonder whether you'd mind opening the door with Open the door).

The polite version uses 8-9 words, while the ordinary version uses only 3.

user116848

7:17 AM

But (for example) when asking any question here on chat (especially) I try to be succinct so the person who answers it doesn't get confused as to what I am asking. That's right I guess, no?

user116848

I believe brief questions are easy to understand.

Actually, a safer version would be longer: I am wondering whether you would mind opening the door -- which is 10 words, instead of 3 words.

@Arrowfar And how's that working out for you? (Rhetorical question, by the way.)

@Arrowfar The answer is: no.

I agree :-)

@Arrowfar Only if you word your brief sentence accurately. Which you often ain't doing.

user116848

@F.E. No? You mean I could have got more good answers here if I had been more wordy?

7:19 AM

@Arrowfar You know what I'm talking about.

user116848

You mean I sound brash?

user116848

@skullpatrol Have you noticed that too? Please do tell :)

@Arrowfar Brash, and rude, and whiny.

Notice how my last sentence was very brief. Actually, it's a fragment.

user116848

:D No way dude!
I am that bad huh?

@Arrowfar Way, dude.

7:21 AM

Conciseness only works when you choose your words very carefully

user116848

Yeah people say that I sound whiny even when I talk to them face to face :D

@skullpatrol Quite true! :)

:-)

user116848

Cut me some slack! :D

@Arrowfar Because you keep asking questions (keep digging away), when temporary silence is what's being asked for.

user116848

7:23 AM

Oh, so I shouldn't push I guess.

@Arrowfar Right. :)

user116848

I will try to be careful then. Not to push too much after asking my query here.

@Arrowfar Asking a grammar question is one thing. . . . (Read between the lines.)

user116848

Hmm.

You might want to consider possibly using a different avatar, too . . .

user116848

7:27 AM

Yeah? :D It looks kinda bad. Please do tell I don't mind. I will change it.

@Arrowfar Notice mine, notice the robot's, notice the . . .

user116848

Ah. You mean something pleasant. I get it.

@Arrowfar Something to use as a "hedge" when talking to strangers, or when starting up conversations with strangers . . .

user116848

So do I look kinda bad guy :)

The picture of your avatar is what the other person first sees . . .

user116848

7:29 AM

How about a mountain hut painting?

@Arrowfar probably not.

Have you talked to a hut painting?

user116848

Then? What do you suggest?

It's up to you . . .

user116848

Give me a link to some good pics. I'll use it here as an avatar.

But it shouldn't be a picture of your face.

The Robot has a robot.

Me, a tiger, has a tiger.

user116848

7:31 AM

So my face doesn't look friendly? :D

What are you?

user116848

Wolverine?

user116848

hee

Why are you asking me?

user116848

Well, you pointed it out.

user116848

7:32 AM

Never mind. I'll change it today.

Notice also that your picture doesn't come out very well when it's a small size, like in most of your comment blocks. So, keep that in mind too.

user116848

Hmm. I notice.

In chat, we don't get to see each other's faces--and that's a big part of face-to-face communication.

That is why longer sentences are safer.

user116848

But on ELU chat you can see there are a lot of peeps with their own photo.

Are you sure it's photos of their own faces?

I've run into thinking many posters were the opposite sex to what they really were--they often used the picture of their favorite actor/actress, who would often be of the opposite sex.

user116848

7:37 AM

Oh, that. But if I upload some actress's photo that I like then only the guys would talk to me :)

user116848

Perhaps I'll go with some nice scenery. I love scenery.

user116848

Good thing you pointed it out :)

Good luck! :)

user116848

:)

user116848

I am currently looking for some nice pics

user116848

7:40 AM

See ya! FE

Bye :)

9:02 AM

I'm trying to reply to this comment:

@Nico So, the phrase "Alberta law as it affected women" by itself would incomplete because the "as" is dangling? That "as" has to modify something outside the phrase. — meatie 7 hours ago

The sentence we are discussing is:

Here's a real example of use: "Edwards published an account of the legal status of women in Canada in 1908 and a review of Alberta law as it affected women and children in 1917". Is this example representative of the usage you're interested in? — Nico 20 hours ago

The way I'm parsing this sentence, as is a subordinating conjunction.

and thus, the clause "it affected women and children in 1917" is subordinated to the clause "Edwards published an account of the legal status of women in Canada in 1908 and a review of Alberta law".

But I don't feel certain. When I think of the meaning of this sentence, it feels like as is making the clause "it affected women and children in 1917" complement the NP "Alberta law".

user116848

9:20 AM

Hi! guys I changed my profile pic :)

user116848

I am the same arrowfar guy :)

cool :)

user116848

It is better than my whiny photo I guess :D

9:44 AM

0

A: As-Clause Dependent

Short answer I think the meaning of as in: the law as it affected people corresponds to acception 2 in the Collins dictionary under subordinating conjunction, and thus, it could be rewritten as: the law in the way that it affected people Longer answer To understand why this use of...

10:12 AM

morning

Hi

11:55 AM

@StoneyB The very existence of government at all, infers inequality. The citizen who is preferred to office becomes the superior to those who are not, so long as he is the repository of power, and the child inherits the wealth of the parent as a controlling law of society.

What does the last "a controlling law " mean?

why law?

@user4550 Don't forget the link

tahnk

danke

@user4550 I read the "controlling law of society" as the law that controls society. Does it make sense to you?

@user4550 Because law is the tool used by those in office to control society.

badp

12:23 PM

FYI

in The Bridge, 5 mins ago, by badp

Duolingo is starting a language proficiency testing program ($20, or $0 while in beta)

12:34 PM

Ah, Duolingo is about learning languages through gamification, I believe, if I understand them correctly.

Thank you for the information. And welcome to the chat room!

Q: Is this strange sentence grammatically correct?

I've just realised who user4550 is!

4

Perhaps nowadays it is our demure contemplation of the Imperfect that the West and the East can meet in mutual consolation. Source It doesn't make any sense.

grammar

Oh, that sentence! I remember that sentence!

At some point I suspected user4550 and username90345 were the same.

I took the opportunity to tag it with the literature tag. :-)

@DamkerngT. Do you have enough reputation to see removed comments?

12:45 PM

I'm afraid that I can see them. :)

By the way, I think they just admitted (without have to literally say it) that both of them are the same user.

what does it means the word electrum ?

It's some unfamiliar word to me.

this is the whole phrase :
 The first coins were stamped out of electrum, a natural alloy of gold and silver, in Lydia in the seventh century BCE

Ah, the sentence explains the word. It says electrum is a natural alloy of gold and silver.

Electrum

Electrum is a naturally occurring alloy of gold and silver, with trace amounts of copper and other metals. It has also been produced artificially, and is often known as green gold. The ancient Greeks called it 'gold' or 'white gold', as opposed to 'refined gold'. Its colour ranges from pale to bright yellow, depending on the proportions of gold and silver. The gold content of naturally occurring electrum in modern Western Anatolia ranges from 70% to 90%, in contrast to the 45–55% of electrum used in ancient Lydian coinage of the same geographical area. This suggests that one reason for the invention...

12:51 PM

Precious metals!

Why does the image of Gollum pop up in my head every time I say "precious"?!

no i don&t

thanks :)

coz law is not a person

here

the child =law

but law is not a person

otherwise it is senseless

@user4550 Why do yo think the child=law?

Oh yea, my fond presumption of archaism here did me in; I thought "law" signified a person because I thought it was as this pattern, "I did this job as captain." But here, it is as "I took your comment as an insult." Therefore, wealth=law.

1:01 PM

> After a time they saw some land at a distance; and when they came to it, they found it was an island made of water quite surrounded by earth. Besides that, it was bordered by evanescent isthmuses with a great Gulf-stream running about all over it, so that it was perfectly beautiful, and contained only a single tree, 503 feet high.

nico?

is my understanding ok thre?

(Source: From Nonsense Songs, Stories, Botany, and Alphabets, by Edward Lear)

nico. why ignore me?

Have I? :)

is my understanding OK i asked.

1:07 PM

Sorry, what understanding do you mean?

Oh yea, my fond presumption of archaism here did me in; I thought "law" signified a person because I thought it was as this pattern, "I did this job as captain." But here, it is as "I took your comment as an insult." Therefore, wealth=law.

Why do yo think the child=law?

about that sentence above

The very existence of government at all, infers inequality. The citizen who is preferred to office becomes the superior to those who are not, so long as he is the repository of power, and the child inherits the wealth of the parent as a controlling law of society.

@user4550 Do you have a link for this?

@user4550 No, I don't. what does it make you think so?

No more!

Though gold was known to the ancients, being the only metal typically found in the elemental state, it was too soft for making weapons and was perhaps not much used at first, even for ornamental purposes. Even where it was relatively abundant, such as in parts of Australia and New Zealand, aboriginal peoples have often ignored it. In Europe, Africa and Asia, however, the metal was generally highly prized and was soon taken up for jewellery and then for coin. The first coins were stamped out of electrum, a natural alloy of gold and silver, in Lydia in the seventh century BCE. Around 550 BCE …

I read this paragraph it contain very and very hard word :o

1:16 PM

Other duties demand my presence. See you later.

See you soon!

@fahdijbeli Hard words are usually easier to solve. :-)

lol yes

@DamkerngT. I think there is an error in the second paragraph second line whow -->who no ?

He damns equally those who wear it and those whow trade with it

Ahh... I think it's a typo.

yes

user116848

Hi!

user116848

1:30 PM

Hello Damks

user116848

@DamkerngT. FE told me to get a good avatar so I did. :)

Hello! Oh, you have a new avatar!

user116848

Yes! indeed

user116848

Do you have any suggestions for some good avatars like tiger, robot, snail etc.?

Hmm? This one looks good to me. I'd say it's beautiful. :-)

user116848

1:34 PM

Link?

user116848

Please

I'm not sure what you mean?

It seems to me that you already have a nice one.

user116848

Oh, you meant this pic is fine.

user116848

Thanks!

Hee!

user116848

1:36 PM

I thought you were talking about some pics that you might be looking at. Duh! me

Ah, I'm sorry if I caused your confusion!

user116848

Nah. It's all good.

user116848

I had a long chat with FE today :)

I've seen that (though I didn't really read through it).

user116848

Yeah it's all English grammar and etiquette etc. that he was telling me about.

1:40 PM

He likes to talk about grammar, doesn't he? I'm glad we have him around here.

user116848

Me too.

user116848

@DamkerngT. Is this sentence correct: "He told me that it was time I changed my profile picture" Or should I say it like this: "He told me that it was time you changed your profile picture"

user116848

My guess is both are correct, right?

I would suggest avoiding the latter.

It only works in speech, I think.

user116848

Hmm. I thought so too.

1:48 PM

Usually, in speech, we can use our intonation, pauses, and so on, to indicate the quoted parts.

askmish

He told me that, "it was time you changed your profile picture"

this is second person

Q: Perfect Tense with and without agent

2:05 PM

0

Q: Usage Of "Make For "

I am exploring the correct usage of "made for". Suppose human error caused an accident: Human error led to the accident. Human error made for the accident. Is this usage of "make for" okay?

grammar meaning usage

Ahh... This could be used as a piece of evidence for the less than ideal result of the over-literal-trees-over-forest learning style.

0

Is it necessary to have agent while constructing Perfect tense?. I mean some activities are spontaneous like Fallen, grow up, increased, expired etc. Tree has been fallen. Water level has been increased. My account has been expired. Some more examples Today’s match is cancelled. (Show status) ...

sentence-construction tense

Another question from a user with a literal learning style?

(The question is good, linguistically, imo.)

Q: Which of the follwing is true while reading the sentence

2:32 PM

0

LA weather is perfect, but Houston has 4 seasons. The beach in galveston is warm enough to swim. Santa Monica beach is too cold for me even in summer. House in Houston very affordable. Job in Houston is very much. Houston has no state tax. I traded earthquake with hurricane too .lol. Does it...

word-meaning

Hmm... They made House and Job sound like mass nouns!

Anonymous

3:15 PM

@DamkerngT. It looks like they're mixing up passive and perfect

That was what I thought, at first.

Anonymous

@snailplane though on a second reading, I guess this is what you meant to say: we are making a stative statement about the sun, so a progressive verb makes no sense. Not that there's some grammatical rule against using stative verbs as progressive verbs. — Phil Frost 5 hours ago

Anonymous

Actually, no, that's not what I meant to say…

Anonymous

@PhilFrost Yes, there is a grammatical rule against stative progressives. That's why I wrote "here"--have is not always stative. — snailplane 34 mins ago

I think most people don't know the term stative in the grammar context.

Anonymous

3:19 PM

@user4550 Ugh, that sentence is kind of terrible

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. That's okay. They're happy to talk about it as though they do :-)

@snailboat I think the OP did mix up passive and perfect, but probably at a higher level than average learners. I think it's more about how to judge a past participle as a passive or as an adjective.

Anonymous

@Nico I am shocked, simply shocked at this revelation

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Is this another misnegation?

I think I can see the removed messages, but not in the transcript.

3:21 PM

Hi everyone!

Hi!

After all the talk about avatars, I finally got around uodating mine.

Is there a way to update teh avatar at once on all my profiles?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, he said comments so I assumed it was about the site itself, since we don't have comments in chat

It was the Hats season that got me my avatar! :-)

Ah, I might misunderstand that!

Anonymous

@Nico You can update one profile, then copy it out to all your other profiles (sync it)

3:24 PM

Now I think I misunderstood the question!

I've seen the sync option only my network profile.

Anonymous

@Nico Only moderators can see removed comments (on the site itself). You don't get that ability from reputation

It's a shame SVGs aren't accepted.

@snailboat Is it the same with removed questions and answers?

Anonymous

@Nico No

Anonymous

Regular users can see those with enough reputation.

Anonymous

3:27 PM

@fahdijbeli First stop: The Dictionary!

@Nico Oh, your avatar looks rather familiar, but I can't remember where I've seen it before...

@DamkerngT. It's my own rendition of Matisse's icarus.

A-ha! Nice!

One never know in this copyrighted world what we are allowed to use! :(

We can always (try to) claim "Fair Use". :-)

3:31 PM

I'm sure the original is better! :p

I think yours is a bit brighter. I think brighter is a good thing! :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Well, in countries that have Fair Use (such as the US).

Do you know what's the reputation needed to edit your owns messages after they're frozen? Or only mods can? I hate leaving behind so many mistakes.

I can't do that. I can edit only mine within 2 minutes, just like you. :-)

Must be a mod thing!

Mod (subculture)

Mod is a British youth subculture of the early to mid-1960s and was briefly revived in later decades. Focused on music and fashion, the subculture has its roots in a small group of London-based stylish young men in the late 1950s who were termed modernists because they listened to modern jazz. Significant elements of the mod subculture include fashion (often tailor-made suits); music (including soul, ska, and R&B); and motor scooters (usually Lambretta or Vespa). The original mod scene was associated with amphetamine-fuelled all-night dancing at clubs. There was a mod revival in the United Kingdom...

3:38 PM

Umm... probably a different kind of mod. :-)

A: What does "french me" mean?

0

That means "You will have to give me a French kiss" which means kissing with tongues.

He needs only 40 seconds after the question was posted, to write up the answer and post it!

urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=french&defid=107662

This time the urban dict has let me down. None of the entries are funny!

Ah, I didn't know that that's what UD is for!

Anonymous

Actually, UD is for looking up your own name and seeing if anyone's made an entry

Anonymous

3:47 PM

urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Nico

Anyway, most of the time, I don't even see a new question until 10-15 minutes have passed! Not to mention answering it!

:)

I promised I didn't write it!

Anonymous

Sorry, Damkerng, no dice: urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Damkerng

Anonymous

I'll define it…

Hah! (at Nico's entry!)

Anonymous

3:50 PM

Aww, it wants me to sign in. I can't make an entry.

Anonymous

Here's how I defined Damkerng

Anonymous

> A robot specializing in language acquisition and other robotic matters. Recently upgraded, now capable of whirling. clank clank BEEP whirrr clank

2