English Language Learners

CopperKettle

8:00 PM

@snailboat spatchcocked (0:

Damkerng T.

My generation usually drop everything fricatives and approximants when speaking foreign languages.

Anonymous

There's, epenthesized, but that's usually in reference to the sound being inserted, not to the affected word

Anonymous

See, English phonotactics allow spanchcocked. We allow lots of combinations that don't exist as words.

Anonymous

Spanch is totally a possible syllable

Anonymous

But Japanese phonotactics are much more restrictive―you can't come up with syllables that aren't actually in use

CopperKettle

8:02 PM

Even if that's a foreign word

Anonymous

Epenthesis is one possible way to repair loanwords. Deletion is another

Damkerng T.

Thai would do the opposite: simply drop things we can't say. [span-kok]

2

Anonymous

Psych ← We delete the /p/, but if you try to pronounce it in English, you'll insert a /ə/ afterwards

CopperKettle

English has some "unlikely combinations" too. I noticed how English newscasters had trouble pronouncing Tbilisi

Anonymous

@CopperKettle That's prohibited rather than unlikely

CopperKettle

8:04 PM

..they all tended to say Ti-bli-si (0:

Anonymous

There's no initial /tb/ in English

Anonymous

Sometimes there's some variation.

Damkerng T.

An interesting sound, "tb".

Anonymous

The large majority of English speakers don't have initial /ts/, so tsunami becomes sunami

CopperKettle

..and the Georgian language can have up to 6 consonants in a row!

Anonymous

8:05 PM

It's more common in England than in the US, though

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Yes, there might be someone explaining how to pronounce it on Youtube. It's quite easy to pronounce, a bit "fricative" (if I'm right)

Anonymous

Languages have lots of clusters you wouldn't expect

Anonymous

Albanian has initial /zmbr/ in zmbraps

Damkerng T.

Ah, I see. A puff of air before the "b".

That's really curious!

Anonymous

People who don't speak a language with the same cluster often think it's impossible to say them!

CopperKettle

8:08 PM

@snailboat Sound nice, like a sound of something falling

Anonymous

@CopperKettle It means "repel"

CopperKettle

A sense to suit the sound, then (0:

Anonymous

Besides epenthesis and deletion (the two most common strategies), there are other ways to repair sounds that don't fit a language's phonotactics

Anonymous

In English xyl(o)- tends to be pronounced with an initial /z/

Anonymous

In Japanese, epenthesis is used almost all the time―more than 95%, probably

Anonymous

8:10 PM

But there are some examples of deletion

Anonymous

In Japanese, Oh my god! deletes the final /d/!

Anonymous

So it always sounds like "Oh my gah!"

CopperKettle

The expression migrated into Japanese?

Anonymous

But in Japanese, most borrowing is via spelling rather than directly via sound

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Well, it's still viewed as English

Anonymous

8:12 PM

But yes, it was borrowed

Damkerng T.

Hey, that's pretty much like when Thais say "ice". It becomes "ayte"!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Interesting!

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Is it hard to pronounce s in Thai?

Damkerng T.

We have no final fricatives.

CopperKettle

oh, interesting

Damkerng T.

8:14 PM

So "ayte" is a rather good approximation. Some people reduce it to "ai" (which sounds a lot like English "I", but with a short vowel)!

CopperKettle

(0:

Damkerng T.

ยาไอซ์ [ya-ai] (English "Ice") is one of the most well-known drugs here.

[ya] = "drug", [ai] (or "ice") = "ice".

CopperKettle

Over here, it's водка (vodka) mostly (0:

Damkerng T.

Oh, but vodka is not that kind of drugs.

I think some people (in English) would call "ice" crystal meth.

CopperKettle

yes, of course. "Ice" is meth I guess.

Damkerng T.

8:18 PM

nods

CopperKettle

We have a gazillion words borrowed from English

Приложение:Заимствованные слова в русском языке

== Из английского == === Бизнес и право === аутсорсинг — outsourcing — передача части неосновных операций сторонней организации, специализирующейся в этой сфере бестселлер — bestseller — хорошо продающаяся книга бизнес — business (от слова busy [занятый]) — занятие, дело бизнесмен — businessman — предприниматель биллинг — billing — от bill — счёт, билет, система ведения счёта брокер — broker, восходит к старофранцузскому «торговец вином» дефолт — default — невыполнение обязательств, несоблюдение правил дилер — dealer — торговец от deal — заключать сделки дистрибьютер — distributor — опто...

Damkerng T.

Looks like we borrow a lot of those, too.

CopperKettle

But for some we invented Russian words, like "samolyot" instead of "airplane"

"samo" means "self", and "lyot" means "to fly"

Damkerng T.

Nice!

CopperKettle

so, it "flies by itself"

The same scheme is used in Serbian "sladolyod" for icecream

"slado" - sweet + "lyod" = ice

"sweet ice"

Damkerng T.

8:22 PM

In Thai airplane is เครื่องบิน (reads "kreuang bin") = [machine-fly].

CopperKettle

Nice too!

Anonymous

Ice is some sort of drug slang here, I think

Anonymous

I'm not sure which drug it is

Damkerng T.

nods -- I think because the drug looks a lot like ice.

@snailboat Crystal meth. I think.

Anonymous

The one in Breaking Bad!

Damkerng T.

8:23 PM

Yep!

Oh, it's a hat too!

Anonymous

Oh, wait, I remember now

Anonymous

Ice is a hat?

Damkerng T.

I remember we have a hat named Breaking Bad.

Anonymous

Hey, chat reversed the order of my messages.

Damkerng T.

(Still can't access the main.)

Anonymous

8:25 PM

I can access ELL.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Sometimes it happens.

sobbing...

Anonymous

There's a question asking if analytics is a word

Anonymous

Asking if a word is a word rarely makes sense

Anonymous

ELU has an entire is-it-a-word tag

Damkerng T.

Oh, if anyone would be kind enough to downvote one of my posts (just one is enough), I would be grateful. I think I will get a hat from that.

CopperKettle

8:29 PM

@DamkerngT. Just write a bad post, and voila! (0:

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I wonder if words like linguistics, physics, etc. had crossed his mind.

CopperKettle

He just wanted to ascertain the sense of the word, I guess

Damkerng T.

nods

CopperKettle

I had trouble understanding how tender is used in English, for example

Damkerng T.

I think analytics as a subject is relatively new. It seems to come together with data science.

@CopperKettle Like, when it's used for meat, or a business offer?

CopperKettle

8:31 PM

nods

@DamkerngT. It's also strangely used in the sense of "competition in which one can win"

2

Q: Is it possible to win a tender?

A headline in The Moscow Times: Billionaire Rotenberg Wins Tender for Moscow to St. Petersburg Highway But tender, per dictionaries, means "a (bidder's) offer to do something". So I'm curious, is the quoted usage of tender appropriate? Is it passable? If not, how does one go expressing...

Damkerng T.

Ah, sort of related to tender offers.

CopperKettle

In Russian, the word tender assumed the sense of "the whole process of competitive procurement"

Damkerng T.

(I think the real etymology for tender must be different, but I usually think of this "tender" as "tend" as in "intend".)

CopperKettle

Yes, probably from L "tendere" to stretch

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

8:36 PM

@CopperKettle His question itself is reasonable

Anonymous

More or less

Anonymous

But the title is phrased strangely

Anonymous

(And it is entirely answerable by a dictionary)

CopperKettle

In such cases, I sometimed edit the title to make it more understandable

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Well, analytics is a very old word in that sense

Anonymous

8:37 PM

The key is that analytics has taken on a somewhat newer meaning

Anonymous

So although you can find analytics in more or less any dictionary

Anonymous

Only some dictionaries contain the newer meaning

Damkerng T.

nods

CopperKettle

from Greek analysis "a breaking up, a loosening, releasing," noun of action from analyein "unloose, release, set free; to loose a ship from its moorings

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure which online dictionaries include it.

Anonymous

8:39 PM

I linked to one in a comment

CopperKettle

cata+lysis / ana+lysis

Anonymous

oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/analytics

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Cation, anion!

Damkerng T.

Nice!

Anonymous

Cataphora, anaphora!

CopperKettle

8:39 PM

(0:

Anonymous

Catastrophe, anastrophe!

CopperKettle

Anastrophe = unusual word order, often involving an inversion of the usual pattern of the sentence.

The second word learned today

Damkerng T.

Oh, supercalifragilisticexpialidocious is #4 in the "Most popular" list over there.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Strangely I know this word. Listened to BBC Radio too much (0:

Damkerng T.

Nice!

Anonymous

8:41 PM

Worse yet: catalog, analog! :-)

CopperKettle

Here's a nice word

hobbledehoy

Noun: hobbledehoy (plural hobbledehoys)

An awkward adolescent boy.
1886, Jerome K Jerome, Idle Thoughts of an Idle Fellow, On being shy
1895, H G Wells, The Wonderful Visit, chapter 12
1895, Hardy, Jude the Obscure, part 1, chapter 3
1912, Romain Rolland ,Jean-Christophe, Morning, 2
hobbledehoy (plural hobbledehoys)

Damkerng T.

I didn't know this one, but it sure sounds like fun.

Anonymous

Catalyze, analyze?

CopperKettle

@snailboat The US forms of the same?

Damkerng T.

Cathode, Anode!

CopperKettle

8:43 PM

@DamkerngT. Yep, and there's hobbledehoyhood (0:

learner

@snailboat Merriam Webster's pronounce the the pattern ts. However, when they provide the phonetics they put parenthesis around the sound t denoting it optional as far as I understand. Thank you, it was a good tip.

Anonymous

@learner Few speakers pronounce the /t/ in tsunami

Anonymous

But some do

Anonymous

It's not like psychology where practically nobody pronounces the /p/

Anonymous

There are only a few words with initial /ts/ in English, including tsunami, tsetse fly, and tsar

CopperKettle

8:44 PM

I wonder how it is with "tsetse"

Anonymous

Pronouncing the /t/ is more common in BrE than AmE

Anonymous

But still not common

CopperKettle

With tsar it's z, I know

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Tsar as borrowed into English has three pronunciations

Anonymous

As czar, or with /ts/ or /s/

Anonymous

8:45 PM

Of those, /ts/ is the least common

CopperKettle

yes: "Come on along, not going very far. To the East, to meet the Czar."

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Most people pronounce tsetse like a sequence of the words set and see

learner

@snailboat Is this hedging I see when you say "practically"? cause I thought it is not pronounced whether theoretically or practically?

CopperKettle

@snailboat thanks!

Anonymous

@learner It is hedging, but the number of people who pronounce the /p/ is probably nonzero

learner

8:47 PM

I'm surprised! thanks

Anonymous

Particularly people who've studied, say, Greek or Latin

CopperKettle

Goodnight all!

Anonymous

The number of people who pronounce initial /t/ in /ts/ is undoubtedly larger, but still relatively small

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Rest well, Copper Kettle!

Damkerng T.

G'd night!

CopperKettle

8:49 PM

Thanks for the two new words. (0:

learner

I wouldn't have believed it if it came from a non native English speaker, I mean the psychology word

Good night CK

Anonymous

@learner Well, the standard pronunciation clearly has no /p/

Anonymous

We can all agree on that much :-)

learner

I can see why DK is always here hehe

Anonymous

When you learn another language, it tends to influence you to some extent.

Anonymous

8:53 PM

English speakers who learn Japanese are more likely to pronounce the /t/ in tsunami

learner

Yeah, big time

Tell me about it!

Damkerng T.

@learner I usually leave my avatar here, even though sometimes I'm not here. :D

Still can't access the main...

learner

what "main"? ell.SE?

Anonymous

Yes, I think standardly it would be "the main site"

Damkerng T.

Yes. Here is the chat room. ELL.SE is the main. We also have a meta, which I usually call it the meta.

learner

9:00 PM

I see. I don't experience any problems from my part

Anonymous

@learner More natural ways to express this include: "It's working for me." "It's working from here." "I'm not having any problems accessing it myself." "I can get to the site fine."

learner

@snailboat I'm not having any problems (from here)?

Natural?

from over here?

Anonymous

"I'm not having any problems here"

learner

I like (I can get to the site fine) - sounds very US to me

Anonymous

I'm an American English speaker.

learner

9:05 PM

I see

Anonymous

I can't necessarily tell you what would sound most natural to a British English speaker

Anonymous

I'm somewhat familiar with British English and to a lesser extent with other varieties of English, but what I know best is my own idiolect

Anonymous

I grew up around Chicago. I tend to talk like someone from that region. :-)

Anonymous

What sort of English are you learning?

learner

I was in Canada. I can't say I speak Canadian

but you can say I'm learning US English

Anonymous

9:08 PM

Sure, Canadian and US English are both pretty similar anyway

learner

true

Anonymous

When I say "American English", I usually really mean "North American English, including both the US and Canada"

learner

yeah as opposed to UK and other varieties

I have some interest in southern accent like Alabama's!

Anonymous

Oh! Yeah, I like that sort of accent.

learner

but I'm not doing anything right now

Anonymous

9:11 PM

I can't really do that sort of accent myself, although there are little bits of it in my speech

learner

just general American

I have downloaded an accent course but that was pretty much it. But I intend to learn a bit someday

I got my interest after watching prison break? I'll have to check it on google

Yeah, prison break TV series

Anonymous

Oh, I haven't seen that yet

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