English Language Learners - 2014-10-27 (page 1 of 3)

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user116848

1:36 AM

Help!

user116848

How do I respond to this comment?

user116848

How could I use the word sentence in Therefore both of us decided to repeat the monologues in turn, (one after another.)? I want to put an emphasis on that each of us repeated a sentence after the other had repeated the previous sentence. Ah, complicated!:( — Juya 51 mins ago

user116848

OKay. I did my best.

user116848

One question takes a lot out of a person I guess.

user116848

But I sometimes feel like helping.

user116848

1:57 AM

Yep, Jim is right.

user116848

2:42 AM

90 years later...

user116848

Hello

user116848

Have you guys heard the 'Hello' song

user116848

♪ Hello

user116848

> Hello!
Is it me you're looking for?
I can see it in your eyes
I can see it in your smile

Jim's version: "We decided to take turns repeating lines from the conversation."

Mine: "We decided to take turns repeating the conversation, one line at a time."

user116848

2:45 AM

I see

There are several ways to express the same idea.

user116848

Yeah, I think so too

And these small variations define our speech patterns.

user116848

Yes. Exactly.

user116848

'Monologue' and 'in turn' and 'repeat' is all very complex in their sentence.

2:48 AM

I think one problem of the question, like Jim suggested, is that it's not very clear what the OP has in mind. I'm not even sure that they and their partner doing this together in real-time. I mean, they might record it, or do it over the phone. I'm not really sure.

user116848

Me too

Monologue implies a one-side conversation, which is odd in the context the OP suggested.

I would say dialogue would be better, but conversation is probably the most commonly used term for this.

@Arrowfar I haven't heard the Hello song!

Oh, wait, maybe I've had.

Yep, Lionel Richie!

user116848

Oh, I couldn't use SE for a while just now! I don't know what happened.

!

user116848

Although other sites were opening

2:53 AM

Oh, you mean only the main SE stack.

user116848

@DamkerngT. No, I mean here or anywhere in SE.

Hmm... It works fine on my end.

user116848

"The whole nine yards" :D

user116848

It's okay now. All good

Hooray!

user116848

2:54 AM

haha

user116848

@DamkerngT. When I googled I found thousands of results of "She told me that you are...." and "She told me that I am...."

nods

user116848

I was looking for "She told me that...." construction

I supposed that if she told someone that some guy was anything yesterday, I think it's rather safe to assume that that guy still is that whatever today.

user116848

Yeah, so it looks strange to me because normally they tell us to backshift and stuff. And what's much weirder is that "She told me that you were..." has less results than "She told me that you are..."

user116848

2:58 AM

Almost double.

I think I'm not surprised by that.

user116848

Wow!

user116848

@DamkerngT. Why? Because people don't backshift more often?

Intuitively, "She told me you are ..." is used when we want to talk to someone (that you) when whatever that she told us still holds true.

user116848

Yeah, I know it is informal. But look at the difference in numbers

user116848

3:00 AM

It is much easy to say too, this "....you are...." construction

user116848

nods

I believe this is more natural.

Also, in real speech, people (native speakers) seem to switch back and forth between the narrative mode and the normal conversation mode very often.

user116848

Also there are many results for "She told me that I am...."

user116848

I think 'I' can be used instead of 'you' too.

user116848

@DamkerngT. Yes, I have noticed.

3:03 AM

I don't think so, it would be a little weird.

Maybe it's okay in quotes, but I think more often than not, the that will be dropped.

user116848

@DamkerngT. No, in those examples 'I' means the other person

user116848

Not 'her'

user116848

> I proposed to a girl and she told me I am fake and immature ...

Hmm... Sounds weird. It might be less weird in the context. I can't come up with a good one.

user116848

> I proposed to a girl and she told me you are fake and immature ...

3:05 AM

Oh, this "I" means I, the speaker, not you, the interlocutor.

That's fine. I think it's not just fine, it's more natural.

user116848

@DamkerngT. So we can write it both ways with 'I' and 'you' ?

user116848

Like above

To write you, we'd better quote the line.

> I proposed to a girl and she told me, "You are ..."

> I proposed to a girl and she told me (that) I am ...

user116848

@DamkerngT. Yeah, but they not always quote it in informal language like here books.google.com.pk/…

user116848

> she told me that you are going to die of AIDS soon

3:09 AM

That's another alternative.

user116848

> She told me that you are doing great

user116848

etc.

> I proposed to a girl and she told me (that) you are ...

user116848

I see

It would be strange if she talked about herself, "I wanted this and that," and we replaced that I with you.

> *I proposed to a girl and she told me that you wanted this and that.

That's what I think of as weird.

user116848

3:11 AM

nods :)

In any case, it's easier for the reader if we quote it properly when we choose not to shift the tenses, substitute pronouns, and shift the time phrases.

user116848

nods---True.

user116848

> she told me that you are not my true friend because....

user116848

> she told me that I am not her true friend because....

user116848

From google

3:17 AM

"She told me that you are not my true friend because..." requires the reader to rely on the context to resolve the ambiguity.

Anonymous

@Arrowfar Yeah, present tense sounds good. If you think it's likely to still be true, for example

user116848

@snailboat nods--I see

user116848

@snailboat And do you think we have a 'you' and 'I' choice? Like above sentence.

Anonymous

@Arrowfar Yeah, what Damkerng said. I in quotes refers to the person you're quoting. I outside quotes refers to the person doing the quoting.

Anonymous

You have a choice of direct or indirect reported speech

Anonymous

3:21 AM

But after you've made that choice, you can't swap first and second person pronouns

Anonymous

You have to use the right pronoun

user116848

I see

> Above all, remember someone has to do the work if communication is to take place successfully. An inverse proportion operates: the more work you as a writer do to get it right, the less work the reader has to do. And vice versa. If you slack, it will be the reader who does the bulk of the work – or perhaps not: he may simply view the whole thing as a discourtesy, and give it up as a bad job.
--How to Write and Speaker Better, Reader's Digest

user116848

@DamkerngT. I agree :-)

user116848

nothing

user116848

3:27 AM

@snailboat Have you guys heard the 'Hello' song??

<-- was just having a few rounds of it :-)

user116848

Sorry, btw

user116848

@DamkerngT. lol

user116848

user116848

With lyrics! :D

user116848

3:31 AM

Although the lyrics are pretty clear.

user116848

Because it is a very slow song.

The version I watched is a music video, I think. I'd never watched his music videos before.

user116848

I see, hah

@Arrowfar I just realized that his voice is really like one famous singer who found the new generation of Thai music back around 25 years ago.

user116848

@DamkerngT. Yeah? Which one?

3:33 AM

See if I can find his videos. Shouldn't be too hard.

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AnpZZ6cEF8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-BZkEVBy0w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKv8GwU6as0

Anonymous

@Arrowfar I have not yet

user116848

@snailboat Then try it :D

Anonymous

@Arrowfar Pronouns like it and he generally have anaphoric reference. That means they refer back to something someone said.

Anonymous

But first- and second-person pronouns like I and me have deictic reference. They don't refer back to anything people said.

Anonymous

Instead, they're understood as having specific kinds of reference from context. Basically, I refers to the speaker, you refers to whoever they're talking to

Anonymous

3:37 AM

However!

Anonymous

When you place something in quotes, the center of reference shifts to the person you're quoting

Anonymous

So inside a quote, I refers to the person you're quoting, and you refers to whoever they were talking to (possibly the quoter, possibly someone else)

Anonymous

In English, the difference between quoted and unquoted speech ("direct" and "indirect speech") is almost always very clear

Anonymous

It's not like other languages where the line is blurry and sometimes pronouns can be substituted

Anonymous

CGEL has a chapter on anaphoric and deictic reference.

user116848

3:40 AM

@snailboat I see. Thanks for such a nice explanation!

user116848

@DamkerngT. Nice!

user116848

@snailboat Which chapter?

user116848

Or the page number.

@Arrowfar What really made his song killers (he had so many of them) is the meaning in the lyrics. When you're feeling down, his songs are really great!

user116848

@DamkerngT. Yeah, I couldn't understand anything though.

Anonymous

3:44 AM

But reported speech has its own separate chapter.

Anonymous

See p.1023

user116848

@snailboat Thanks for the page number. I am now seeing it.

Anonymous

Although "I'm now seeing it" is grammatical, that would more typically be "I see it now"

user116848

nods :)

user116848

They are explaining it in a very technical way

user116848

3:51 AM

It looks difficult. But it is very helpful.

Anonymous

That's why I explained about anaphor vs deixis first

user116848

yeah

Anonymous

CGEL is generally fairly technical. It's not designed to be used by learners directly

user116848

That's why I don't use it often :-)

Anonymous

It's used as a reference by linguists and by language educators like Michael Swan

user116848

3:53 AM

I ask here instead.

Anonymous

To help them put together more accurate pedagogical grammars

I'm glad that Swan used it!

Oh, my. I shouldn't listen to his songs too much. I'm now crying!

Anonymous

And this is presumably covered in Swan's book, too

Anonymous

But I haven't looked it up in there

user116848

@DamkerngT. LOL

Anonymous

3:56 AM

Looks like 274 in PEU

Anonymous

274.1

user116848

@snailboat It looks complex in the sense that they tell us there are so many exceptions. So, it seems that every construction is acceptable.

Anonymous

@Arrowfar That is the wrong conclusion.

user116848

'nitty gritty' sortakinda

user116848

@snailboat So, I try to figure out for myself?

user116848

4:00 AM

Okay. Like I study other technical texts I guess.

Anonymous

I thought I already explained how it worked.

user116848

Oh, not that.

user116848

I got that

Anonymous

If you read CGEL and you understand what you're reading, you won't come to the conclusion that every construction is acceptable

Anonymous

If that were the case, the book would be 1800 pages shorter

Anonymous

4:02 AM

The authors would just write "Anything goes." and they'd be done

Anonymous

.case the not is that clearly But

user116848

You are right. I was being silly :)

user116848

I also meant that there is so much lingos and technical language

user116848

But it is for my own good, I know :D

Anonymous

Well, the book wasn't written with you in mind.

user116848

4:05 AM

haha

Anonymous

It was written with accuracy in mind, though

user116848

Yep

Anonymous

You might have an easier time with it if you studied some basic linguistics

Anonymous

But there's no reason that you need to do that

user116848

I don't I guess

user116848

4:06 AM

I know the basic stuff

Anonymous

Most speakers never read a reference grammar in their lives.

Anonymous

Although they are useful.

user116848

@snailboat Have you read all the CGEL? If yes, then I can discuss with you when i get stuck. And of course when you feel like it. :-)

user116848

But I don't read much CGEL. Don't worry for me pestering you!

Anonymous

I have read a bunch of it, but not all of it

Anonymous

4:14 AM

It's a long book

Anonymous

It's definitely worth reading the first two chapters (available freely online) in order

Anonymous

Before reading anything else

Anonymous

After that, skip around and look up things you need to know

Anonymous

I haven't read all of Quirk et al either

Anonymous

As much fun as it is reading a reference grammar cover to cover

Anonymous

4:16 AM

I'm more focused on Japanese than English :-)

user116848

@snailboat Are you half Japanese? I mean like Japanese American.

Anonymous

No

user116848

Oh

Anonymous

I am not in any way Japanese

user116848

So, it is something new for you.

Anonymous

4:18 AM

Yes

From Thai music, I turned to similar songs (in meaning) and found this Don't Stop Believing subtitled in Japanese!

Anonymous

Journey is the first band I ever owned a cassette of

Yay! Their songs are great!

Anonymous

I haven't made it to the subtitles on the song itself

Anonymous

But the subtitles so far are all pretty good, but I wish they had a black outline or something so you could read them when they were on a white background

4:23 AM

I expected they would've repeated and on, and on, and on in Japanese, but it seems like they didn't.

Anonymous

Oh! Actually, this is interesting 'cause there was a question about translating this song on Japanese.SE

Anonymous

I never posted my translation, but I did one for fun :-)

Hah!

Anonymous

The challenge is coming up with something that fits the meter (they wanted to sing it in Japanese, not just understand it)

Ahh

Anonymous

4:25 AM

This translation has no such limitations :-)

user116848

Arrowfar is......over and out ;)

See you around!

user116848

See ya both

Roger, and out!

Anonymous

His singing voice is pretty different from his speaking voice!

4:25 AM

Indeed!

It's one topic my friend and I discussed once.

Why can non-native speakers sing so good but sound obviously non-native when speaking?

Anonymous

Dang, he's good!

:D

The Journey continues!

Anonymous

Thanks for the video! :-)

I'm happy listening to him myself!

Anonymous

It's always funny reading Japanese or English subtitles along with the other language

Anonymous

4:30 AM

Because the subtitles are usually backwards relative to the source language!

Anonymous

Which can be a little bit brain-bending :-)

Hehe!

Anonymous

Literally at least half the time, you could look at the right half of the subtitles before the left and they'd match up better :-)

Hah!

Anonymous

That was good!

Anonymous

4:32 AM

Now I feel nostalgic!

Anonymous

I was very little when I got that cassette. Maybe five years old-ish

Anonymous

CDs had already been invented but weren't mainstream yet.

The Thai singer I mentioned earlier perhaps was influenced by this band.

@snailboat I think my first CD was Michael Jackson!

Anonymous

I can't remember what my first CD was. Maybe Phish :-)

Anonymous

I was probably about 10.

Anonymous

4:37 AM

The bands I got when I was little were always because of other people, not my own choices

Anonymous

Like, I got that Journey cassette because my brother decided he didn't like them anymore!

Hehe! I guess you mean your brothers. :-)

Anonymous

I have a sister too

Ahh!

Anonymous

My parents listened to music, but

4:38 AM

I have only one younger brother. Is your sister younger than you?

Anonymous

Well, my dad always listened to marches. That was always his favorite genre, the march.

Anonymous

So I heard a lot of marches growing up.

Anonymous

And my mom always listened to heavy metal.

Hah! March music! And heavy metal!

I'm sure KISS was one of the bands.

Anonymous

But then she became a church lady and now she only listens to religious music.

Anonymous

4:40 AM

But she, in her fifties, wore black leather and went to heavy metal concerts

Anonymous

She's in her seventies now

Anonymous

I am the youngest of four

She's a cool mom!

Anonymous

She was kind of the archetypical Cool Mom

Anonymous

She's studied a lot more languages than me

4:41 AM

Wow!

Anonymous

She's in her 70s, but doesn't seem to have trouble with picking up new languages

Anonymous

So I always think of that when people say you can only learn languages if you're young :-)

That's very useful info!

Anonymous

My mom's done a lot of things. She was a programmer

Anonymous

As was my dad

Anonymous

4:42 AM

Although they're both retired now

Do they travel a lot? I heard that people usually go travel when they're retired.

Anonymous

Well, she has some health problems now

Aww

Anonymous

Surprisingly, her mom is in tip-top shape

Oh!

Anonymous

4:49 AM

But my other three grandparents died before I was born.

Anonymous

My dad was 45 when I was born, and he was the youngest of twelve, so if his parents were alive today they'd be the oldest people on the planet.

Hehe!

All my grandparents passed away.

Anonymous

Did you know them?

Only my grandma.

I was practically raised by my grandma.

Anonymous

Oh!

user116848

4:52 AM

In other news, I am back....

Anonymous

Welcome back!

user116848

All my grandparents passed away too

My dad passed away when I was, hmm, probably in Grade 10.

user116848

I am third among four.

Anonymous

Around here, tenth graders are usually around 15 years old.

Anonymous

4:53 AM

I don't know if the numbers match up between here and there

Maybe Grade 9.

Anonymous

Well, 15 or 16 (it varies a little)

Anonymous

Do you count your age from your birthdate in Thailand?

I remember that my little brother had more problem than me because it was around when he had to take an exam to get into a new school.

user116848

In Japan they do it from the inception I know.

4:55 AM

@snailboat I think we count it the same way as most people do.

Anonymous

Japan switched from the age-by-birthyear system to an age-by-birthday system a hundred years ago

So a baby has to be 12-month-old first to be called a one-year-old.

But the Chinese-style counting (similar to Japanese, I think) also exists.

Anonymous

Japan now uses the same system we use here in the US

Anonymous

Though they didn't used to

user116848

Good info

4:58 AM

nods -- I guess people traveling across countries holding their passports might be the reason.

user116848

I was using hundred years old info.

It would be confusing if we all use different systems.

@Arrowfar Oh, and what is that?

user116848

@DamkerngT. That in Japan they calculate it from inception

Ahh

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. That's a matrix interrogative with a fronted wh-phrase, inversion is obligatory

4:59 AM

I was thinking about that too.

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