English Language Learners

Anonymous

12:00 AM

Well, I've got to get going, but I'll get back in a bit once I've gotten some groceries

Damkerng T.

Have a nice grocery-ing! :-)

StoneyB

How engrossing!

@DamkerngT.: does your audio program allow you to generate a standalone pitch contour for speech?

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB Yes. Though as far as I know, there is no algorithm that will always compute the pitch contour accurately.

Then again, most of available algorithms are decent enough.

StoneyB

I ask because I just ran across this paper (it appears to be a pre-pub for perhaps an encyclopedia?) which makes very good use of graphics of pitch contours.

Damkerng T.

Most of them will have trouble with noises and can't figure out the pitch correctly when it comes to short intervals.

Hmm... Figure 1 looks uncommon.

Somehow I feel like it's not accurate.

But it's hard to tell without having the wave file. In any case, I think it's uncommon to see the pitch rise so steadily, and then it falls rather suddenly and then stays that flat.

Judging from the frequency range, the speaker should be male.

An interesting paper! -- downloading it...

StoneyB

12:18 AM

After the hoo-ha with TRomano the other day I started poking around for something that would give a scientifically verified depiction of 'comma intonation' and ran across that.

This guy seems to know his stuff - you can get to his academic brag page by chopping off the last part of the paper's URL

Damkerng T.

Oh, he uses ToBI notations, too!

(Those things which look like: H* H*+L 0%)

StoneyB

Yes, I'd never encountered that before. It's a variant called IViE.

Damkerng T.

I didn't know about IViE.

Oh, it's the name of a corpus. Thanks a lot for the pointer!

StoneyB

So much to learn, so much to learn, and so little time to learn it in. I wish I could take a year (or maybe five) off and just read all this stuff.

Damkerng T.

Hehe! Me too!

Anonymous

12:30 AM

@DamkerngT. That's because it's physically impossible

Anonymous

Only an waveform of infinite length has an exact pitch

Anonymous

Otherwise, the time-frequency uncertainty principle comes into play

StoneyB

Heisenberg phonetics!

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Oh, but we have a whole new generation of spectrograms with us now. I think it's called high-definition or high-resolution spectrogram or something.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. That doesn't change the physics, but

Anonymous

12:33 AM

It is possible to be more precise sometimes by being wrong other times, if you're willing to guess based on prior information

Anonymous

So you can track things more accurately in real time than might be expected

Anonymous

Still, there's no overcoming the physics when you've got a fixed recording

StoneyB

You can't sample a digitial recording at a higher resolution than its initial format.

Damkerng T.

Indeed. Then again, I think using Fourier Transform which requires infinite length for making spectrograms is not quite right. I mean, a sound isn't infinitely long. But it sure is a very good approximation.

@StoneyB Down-sampling is very much possible, sadly it's not the same in the other direction.

Anonymous

And practically, you can't even reproduce what you got as input

Damkerng T.

12:40 AM

Exactly!

Anonymous

A real-life reconstruction filter requires some kind of transition band between the pass band and the stop band

Anonymous

So with a sampling rate of 44100Hz and a Nyquist of 22050Hz, we end up with a transition band of probably 20000Hz 〜 22050Hz

Anonymous

But nothing is ever quite ideal

StoneyB

But in practical terms, how fine does your discrimination have to be to make enough sense of speech audio to be meaningful?

Damkerng T.

Even though we all seem to work well enough with just 8 kHz and below -- which is a good thing since I'm not sure how long my above-8k will last.

Anonymous

12:42 AM

@StoneyB Well, phone companies have been trying to figure out just how far they can degrade quality ;-)

Damkerng T.

I think it's about 3.5 kHz.

StoneyB

They seem to have gotten pretty damn successful at it!

Damkerng T.

Indeed!

Anonymous

Mean opinion score

Mean opinion score (MOS) is a test that has been used for decades in telephony networks to obtain the human user's view of the quality of the network. Historically, and implied by the word Opinion in its name, MOS was a subjective measurement where listeners would sit in a "quiet room" and score call quality as they perceived it; per ITU-T recommendation P.800, "The talker should be seated in a quiet room with volume between 30 and 120 m3 and a reverberation time less than 500 ms (preferably in the range 200-300 ms). The room noise level must be below 30 dBA with no dominant peaks in the spectrum...

StoneyB

Mean appears to be the mot juste.

Anonymous

12:44 AM

It gets really fun when you start tandem encoding, running one coder into another when both were designed for final delivery only

Anonymous

Because clearly that couldn't reduce quality.

Damkerng T.

> Some suitable English-language phrases used for determining a MOS as suggested by ITU-T recommendation P.800 are:
You will have to be very quiet.
There was nothing to be seen.
They worshipped wooden idols.
I want a minute with the inspector.
Did he need any money?

Anonymous

You know, everyday conversation. :-)

Damkerng T.

It's interesting how they came up with those phrases, or what inspired them to choose them.

I'm not sure I will say "They worshipped wooden idols." in everyday conversation.

:D

StoneyB

Gosh, it would be fun to write a story in which that was a passage of dialogue.

Sort of Pinter-esque: fraught with incomprehensible menace.

Damkerng T.

12:50 AM

By the way, I did a little experiment a couple of days ago (because of the hoo-ha). You might already have seen it in the transcript. Here is one instance from my analysis:

yesterday, by Damkerng T.

> 3:50 "It came from a man in Tennessee who began by writing that he didn't vote for me -- which is okay."

yesterday, by Damkerng T.

The dip of intonation on me before which is okay is rather obvious. On the other hand, there is no dip on Tennessee.

The video: youtube.com/watch?v=01zClkV1n24

Heh, it was only yesterday! I feel like it was several days ago.

StoneyB

Cool ... though the who- clause is arguably non-restrictive. That's a problem with speech -- the restrictive/non-restrictive distinction is often very tenuous, because many relatives which in writing would be unambiguously restrictive actually occur to the speaker as afterthoughts.

And what would be non restrictive in writing is often hurried through because the speaker for a change knows exactly where he is going.

Anonymous

1:39 AM

Well, people aren't required to use any intonation. They can speak like robots.

Anonymous

I've heard people talk like vacuum cleaners.

Anonymous

They want to talk really fast, so they start out by rising rapidly in pitch and reaching their peak, and then they just stay there, emitting word after word

Anonymous

But separating out intonational phrases and giving them relative pitch is one of the tools speakers have to make themselves clear

Anonymous

And I think people use that tool often enough that it's worth knowing how to recognize it

Anonymous

2:14 AM

Turning the comments into a question is already successful! It's attracted another answer which has already got 3 upvotes :-)

Damkerng T.

2:26 AM

@snailboat Yay! That sounds like something perfect to celebrate!

Anonymous

Yeah! In a few days, I'll accept whatever's voted highest

Anonymous

Do you think I'm handling the question+answer thing correctly?

Anonymous

It's my first time trying to do that

Damkerng T.

I do!

Anonymous

They have a fair point. Although I think that there's a clear difference between make and the other causatives in terms of appropriateness

Anonymous

2:29 AM

None of let, have, and get make sense

Anonymous

But I think make does

Anonymous

They might still want to avoid using a causative

Anonymous

I may not have addressed that option well enough

Anonymous

But they did! :-)

Anonymous

It's really difficult participating in these language sites

Anonymous

2:31 AM

It's great that we can get multiple perspectives

Damkerng T.

I'm guessing here. It seems like you want to say, "What does xxx mean?" or maybe "What is the meaning of xxx?" or maybe "What if it means xxx?" or maybe "What is it, a word that means xxx?" I think there might be some other possibilities, too. Not sure. — Damkerng T. 23 secs ago

I tried to guess!

Anonymous

Let's take a look.

Anonymous

This use of have is stative and can't appear in the progressive: "What meaning does this have?" but not ＊"What meaning is this having?" (ungrammatical) — snailboat 5 secs ago

Anonymous

I tried to guess too! ;-)

Anonymous

It's honestly not clear enough for me to write a real answer yet

Damkerng T.

2:35 AM

@Siliance : I am just asking the sentence structure with "having mean". — user1917217 1 min ago

Anonymous

There's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem there

Damkerng T.

@snailboat It's rather difficult to analyze because it's not very clear what meaning was intended. But I think your guess was really close!

Anonymous

Unfortunately, if they can't express themselves well enough to ask their question, they can't learn the right way to express themselves.

Anonymous

They might need to fall back on bilingual resources

Anonymous

But hopefully we can figure this out :-)

Damkerng T.

2:41 AM

1

Q: Why do you use relative clauses?

now I trying to study about relative clauses. But I am curious about why do you use relative clauses? For example, a thief is a person who steals thing. also how do many English native speaker use relative clauses?

relative-clauses

Hmm... That's not very easy to answer!

Anonymous

> also how do many English native speaker use relative clauses?

Anonymous

"All of them."

Damkerng T.

Let's see... I can think of one reason: thinking a really heavy and long noun phrase is not the easiest thing to do, so we use relative clauses for complex nouns. Does that make any sense?

Anonymous

Although the uses of relative clauses differ from language to language, if we knew what language they spoke natively, we could make a comparison to relative clauses in their own language

Anonymous

I suspect they're thinking of relative clauses as an English thing, which they are, but not as a cross-linguistic thing, which they also are

Damkerng T.

2:46 AM

nods

> And I think people use that tool often enough that it's worth knowing how to recognize it.
And I think people use that tool often enough, recognize-it-is-worth-knowing-enough often.

I hacked your sentence!

Probably a bad hack.

Anonymous

Ow, my brain! :-)

Damkerng T.

> It came from a man in Tennessee who began by writing that he didn't vote for me -- which is okay.
It having come from an in-Tennessee, beginning-by-he-didn't-vote-for-me-writing man is okay.

Another hack!

Even though I don't know about your first language, it would be a really big surprise for me if your first language had no relative clauses. I believe that you need to use it if you want to translate "a thief is a person who steals thing" literally. — Damkerng T. 6 secs ago

Okay, I left a clue.

Anonymous

3:03 AM

@DamkerngT. It's possible for a language to have correlative clauses rather than relative clauses proper, as in Pirahã

Anonymous

But they can be considered another type of the same thing

Anonymous

Internally headed relative clauses, externally headed relative clauses, and correlative clauses

Anonymous

Three types of relatives

Anonymous

@ Damkerng T : Please don't post answer until you have more experience English. You are giving a confusion to beginner. — user1917217 1 min ago

Anonymous

What?

Damkerng T.

3:14 AM

Umm...

Anonymous

I responded

Damkerng T.

Now that's a really big surprise. Though I'm not really sure what they really meant.

Anonymous

Me either.

Anonymous

But it doesn't sound very nice.

Anonymous

I left another comment

Damkerng T.

3:31 AM

test

(I just got another good crash. :-)

Anonymous

Welcome back!

Damkerng T.

Yay!

Anonymous

5:19 AM

@DamkerngT. ell.stackexchange.com/questions/37233/…

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Oh! Thanks for clearing everything up!

I wonder what they thought of my comment at first. Never mind that, though.

I probably should put more effort into writing plain English.

Anonymous

I sure didn't put my comment in plain English. I'm lousy at communicating. :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Yet it was my sentence, not yours, that got a problem earlier today. :-)

Admittedly, I didn't give much thought while writing it.

Damkerng T.

6:50 AM

0

Q: My questions were duly answered

These two comments were taken from one of our posts here on ELL. I think I had two questions, and the one in the comment was one of them . Would you read and comment please? @learner Do you mean that reading John's answer caused you to check a dictionary? Then "You made me check a diction...

word-usage

@snailboat Hehe, I just realized that SB could be used to refer to either you or StoneyB!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I've been confused by that one before!

Anonymous

But if you look carefully, you'll realize my initials are simply "S" :-)

Damkerng T.

Hmm... Indeed! :D

Ice Boy

Shouldn't that be "initial"?

:-)

Damkerng T.

7:57 AM

goo.gl/myRD5X

Oh, it seems to work well.

Damkerng T.

8:12 AM

The native speakers who told you that are wrong. — snailboat 2 days ago

The first hot comment I've ever seen on ELL!

Anonymous

8:30 AM

Oh, is 30 hot? :-)

Anonymous

It's red!

learner

10:10 AM

Hi there

@snailboat I didn't know know you posted our discussion last night. So when I was writing my newest post I was not sure if it is okay to post the ids of the people involved in the discussion. I had to decide on the spur of the moment

I'm outta here but coming back

Anonymous

Everything here is public, so unless you think that quoting someone will embarrass them or otherwise make them unhappy, it's generally fine to mention everyone by name

Anonymous

You can use your own judgment

Damkerng T.

Hello @learner! It's nice to see you in here again!

learner

10:52 AM

@snailboat I can always re-edit so it's better to be on the safe side

Hi @DamkerngT. It's been a while man, it's good to see you again

Anonymous

11:14 AM

Well, I personally never mind being mentioned. :-)

user116848

3:07 PM

Yello

user116848

Blue

user116848

Orange

user116848

Hello!

user116848

I missed green, red . . .

user116848

3:27 PM

What do you think of my question here?

user116848

I didn't get any answer there.

user116848

:(

user116848

I think I should have pinged someone there.

user116848

Got it! nvm.

user116848

Matt answered!

user116848

3:41 PM

in English Language & Usage, 6 mins ago, by Arrowfar

Got it. I thought it was that "I wish I was...." construction.

user116848

I mean people say both "I wish it never exists" and "I wish it never existed"

user116848

Why is that then?

user116848

I think I'll go with my instincts when deciding between the two.

user116848

You guys can always ping me!

user116848

Gotta go.

user116848

3:43 PM

See ya

user116848

5:12 PM

in English Language & Usage, 2 hours ago, by Matt Эллен

Anonymous

7:40 PM

1

Q: Do you mind me / my

Do the following sentences mean the same? Do you mind if I open the window? Do you mind me opening the window? Do you mind my opening the window? for me they all mean the same, bit #3 is a little less common as far as I've seen so far. Do you agree with me? PS. I am more about th...

grammar meaning

Anonymous

A lot of -1s here...

Anonymous

I voted up Khan's and tunny's answers, although I think there's a duplicate somewhere on ELL already

Anonymous

I seem to recall there being an answer on another question with more detail

Anonymous

@Arrowfar "I wish the site would never go down." "I wish the site never went down." ← These are both okay, though they differ in meaning

user116848

@snailboat Can they both represent 'present'?

user116848

7:48 PM

Hello!

user116848

There on the ELU they say that it represents 'past'.

Anonymous

"I wish the site never went down" would be strange if the site had never gone down in the past.

user116848

okay

user116848

I see

user116848

So, it represents past.

user116848

7:49 PM

But.....

user116848

4 hours ago, by Arrowfar

in English Language & Usage, 6 mins ago, by Arrowfar

Got it. I thought it was that "I wish I was...." construction.

user116848

I guess this ^ one is with "I". That's why it is different in construction.

Anonymous

I don't know about that.

Anonymous

But you didn't give a complete sentence, so they can't strictly be compared

Anonymous

Be is ambiguous

user116848

7:51 PM

"I wish I was Irish". I mean it is present but it is written as a past.

user116848

That sort of thing.

Anonymous

There, be Irish expresses a state while go down expresses an event

user116848

Oh, so that is the difference.

user116848

Yeah, it is pretty clear I guess. Also by reading a lot I am able to write these wishes right. But sometimes it gets confusing.

user116848

*an Irish

Anonymous

8:01 PM

1

A: How formal is the use of "faux pas"?

To my (American) ear, "faux pas" is formal. "Faux pas" is normally used in social situations. It can also be used in professional situations, where one is apologizing for a social mistake. (For example, if you use the title "Mister" for someone who is a "Doctor", you have probably committed a ...

Anonymous

Jasper has really low expectations

Anonymous

He doesn't expect people to be able to understand biding their time or faux pas

Anonymous

@Arrowfar An Irish?

user116848

@snailboat Yeah, I corrected my above sentence. I wrote only 'Irish' without "an" before.

user116848

We say "An Irish", right?

user116848

8:07 PM

Does it look good to write dialogues in shot stories? I don't write them. I only describe the scenes clearly.

user116848

Most people write them when they write a short story at Overlook Hotel chat. I think my stories look good, even without any dialogues.

Anonymous

It's funny because in informal chat, especially among non-techies, the asterisk is often used to signal a correction

Anonymous

Whereas among linguists, the asterisk marks an error of some kind :-)

user116848

One reason for not writing any dialogues is that unless I can come up with very good dialogues, the story looks like crap.

Anonymous

@Arrowfar Not really, no. "I wish I was Irish" is fine.

user116848

8:11 PM

@snailboat Yeah I used asterisk as a correction :-)

Anonymous

@Arrowfar You're the writer. You decide whether you want to write dialogue or exposition.

user116848

@snailboat I have seen many users in ELU, like Reg, use asterisk for corrections :-)

Anonymous

@Arrowfar Yeah, I've seen people do it before. I'd never do it.

user116848

It marks the correction for an error I'd say.

Anonymous

Yeah, usually for a typo.

user116848

8:13 PM

Yep

Anonymous

It's a somewhat widespread convention among informal chatters.

user116848

@snailboat So, what do formal chatters do in that situation? :-)

Anonymous

"I'm sorry, I meant to type an Irish"

Anonymous

That's a little less informal

user116848

Oh, that.

user116848

8:15 PM

Yes it is. haha

user116848

Gotcha! :D

user116848

I mean 'Got it'

Anonymous

Gotcha's okay.

user116848

~~Not 'Got you'~~

user116848

:D

Anonymous

8:16 PM

One possible meaning of "getting someone" (informally) is understanding what they're saying

user116848

Ah, that is very enlightening.

Anonymous

google.com/search?q=%22yeah+i+get+you%22

Anonymous

@Arrowfar Now that's formal! ;-)

Anonymous

By the way, I didn't mean to imply that you shouldn't chat informally. It's fine.

user116848

Okay :D

user116848

8:17 PM

I know.

user116848

@snailboat Yeah, I know you like royal language. Like the one 'Princess Bride' would say in the movie.

user116848

;)

Anonymous

@Arrowfar Haha.

Anonymous

Royal language, eh? :-)

user116848

Yea :-)

user116848

8:20 PM

I wrote "Yea" as a funny opposite of "eh". Is that correct English?

user116848

googles

Anonymous

Um, I don't know what the opposite of "eh" might be :-)

user116848

Nope

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Maybe 'no', no?

user116848

@DamkerngT. hi :-)

Damkerng T.

8:22 PM

Hi!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. But eh isn't polar.

Damkerng T.

Aye!

I don't know Princess Bride, but I do know The Princess Diaries!

Anonymous

Very different.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Also, shame on you for not going and watching the Princess Bride. :-)

Damkerng T.

Aww!

Ouch!

I wonder why they haven't had it on my cable.

Anonymous

8:28 PM

@DamkerngT. I'm just kidding with you . . . :-)

Damkerng T.

I knew it! :-)

Anonymous

Hehe!

Damkerng T.

I guess maybe because it's neither very new nor very old.

Anonymous

It's a classic!

Anonymous

It's timeless.

Damkerng T.

8:32 PM

My classic channel is TCM (Turner Classic Movies) and something like Westworld would look relatively new on that channel!

I think there is a good chance for it showing on Fox Family Channel, but that day hasn't come yet. :-)

Oh, TCM is showing The Hour of 13 (1952) now!

Oh, the show after the next is interesting--it's Logan's Run (1976). I feel like I want to watch it again.

Anonymous

Oh, you have a classic channel!

Anonymous

I have hundreds of channels, but I don't know what most of them are

Anonymous

I don't usually use the TV myself

Anonymous

When I do watch something, it's because other people turned it on :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat And you can enjoy their ride!

I've got the TCM channel as a trial which I didn't ask for it. Sometimes they gave such trials for free for a while in hope that the members will upgrade their memberships to more expensive plans. :-)

user116848

8:42 PM

@DamkerngT. I like "Ware Eagles Dare". Have you watched it? It is a very old film.

Anonymous

Where Eagles Dare? I haven't.

user116848

@snailboat No way! So, apart from snails what do you enjoy in your free time??

Damkerng T.

@Arrowfar I haven't watched every one of the classic movies! :-)

user116848

@DamkerngT. haha okay

user116848

@DamkerngT. I was listening to its soundtrack today!

user116848

8:43 PM

But it is all war related.

Anonymous

I'm interested in a number of topics

user116848

@snailboat Yeah? Like

Anonymous

Well, Japanese and English linguistics :-)

Damkerng T.

I was so glad that they had The Sound of Music on HBO, but when I started watching I came to realize that it's another remake, not the original one.

Anonymous

Programming. Audio engineering

Anonymous

8:44 PM

Writing and playing music

Anonymous

I read a lot. I write

Anonymous

Other languages, but they suffer by being low on the priority list

Damkerng T.

@snailboat You forgot one thing! You also enjoy ELLing!

Anonymous

I'm interested in physics, math, and biology

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Hehe!

user116848

8:45 PM

I see

user116848

:-)

Anonymous

I like to cook

Anonymous

I draw.

Ice Boy

this is interesting

18

Q: How do blind people learn mathematics?

I am interested in how blind people learn mathematics at any level, but particularly before college. Math is often taught using a lot of visualization; how does this work with blind people? My interest in this is a little round-about. I have nonverbal learning disabilities (NLD) and am writing ...

secondary-education primary-education mathematical-pedagogy special-needs-education

Anonymous

I'm bad at pretty much all of it because I spread myself too thin . . . :-)

Anonymous

8:46 PM

@IceBoy I'll have to sign up so I can upvote it!

Ice Boy

:-)

Anonymous

Ta-da!

Anonymous

Besides reading, I also like playing video games, although I don't seem to have done any of that lately

Damkerng T.

@IceBoy Really interesting!

Ice Boy

@snailboat Welcome to the site :D

Damkerng T.

8:49 PM

@snailboat I wonder when the last time I played any video games was.

Years, I'm sure. How many, I'm not.

Ice Boy

@DamkerngT. it will be very interesting to watch for answers :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I just found an interesting music+stage show program.

@IceBoy Indeed!

I found A Prairie Home Companion last week, and they're kind of funny! They're really great!

Anonymous

@IceBoy Thanks! I don't do a lot of math educating, but I contributed an upvote :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I bought one last year!

Damkerng T.

Hooray!

Anonymous

8:53 PM

I got Skyrim when I found out it had a full Japanese localization with Japanese voice acting for everything

Damkerng T.

Oh, you mean a video game. Ahh... Skyrim!

Anonymous

Yuh-huh! :-)

Anonymous

It was a pretty fun game.

Anonymous

That was the last one I played, I think.

Anonymous

I do a bit of reading. I usually average about 50 books a year

Anonymous

8:56 PM

But I read a little slower in Japanese

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Wow, that's a lot!

Anonymous

Well, it's only one book a week

Damkerng T.

I don't know how many books I read a year lately, since what I read aren't really books anymore.

Anonymous

My favorite series just ended :-(

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Which is?

Anonymous

8:57 PM

The Hollows

Damkerng T.

Oh! You watched the Hollows!

Anonymous

I read a lot of urban fantasy

Anonymous

No. I didn't watch anything called the Hollows

Anonymous

I'm talking about a series of books

Anonymous

Is there also a TV series with that name?

Damkerng T.

8:58 PM

It looks great--the way I remember. I got only one glimpse of it.

@snailboat I think Fox Series has The Hollows on it.

Anonymous

I do know one series of books I like, The Dresden Files, got turned into a short TV series, but it got cancelled and everyone said the TV show was bad.

Anonymous

So I never watched it

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, I'm not familiar with it

Damkerng T.

Oh, no, it's not Hollows, it's Sleepy Hollow!

Anonymous

Ohh. I'm still not really familiar with it, but I think I might have heard of it

Anonymous

8:59 PM

Sleepy Hollow (TV series)

Sleepy Hollow is an American supernatural/police drama television series that premiered on Fox on September 16, 2013, that airs on Mondays at 9:00 pm ET. The series is considered a "modern-day retelling" of the 1820 short story "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow" by Washington Irving with the added concept from Rip Van Winkle, also by Irving. On October 3, 2013, Fox renewed Sleepy Hollow for a second season, which premiered on September 22, 2014 and will contain 18 episodes. == Premise == In 1781, Ichabod Crane, a soldier and spy in the Colonial Army on a mission for General George Washington, kills...

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