Puzzling Healthy Debate Room

3:26 PM

in The Sphinx's Lair, 11 mins ago, by GentlePurpleRain

@incesterror21 So you're saying we need to count on flooding the election with uninformed votes in order to make sure that no new ideas are brought forth by less "established" candidates?

n_palum

Screams opinions

incesterror21

Uninformed voters are less likely to vote for radical parties from what I know

But in gerneral they could, yes.

What I've experienced was that people tend to vote what their parents vote

Techidiot

I do not follow this ^

n_palum

@incesterror21 This only seems to apply to real world elections where radical ideas and policies are potentially implemented. If a person running for a moderation position on a site wanted to try and implement radical ideas, it's much much harder to do so.

incesterror21

Yes, I agree. PSE elections are one of a kind

Maybe because there aren't many people to begin with if compared to a whole country

n_palum

3:30 PM

Exactly, so having some sort of threshold really isn't needed. I think having a blend of very invested users, and less (but not necessarily less important) invested users voting is better

incesterror21

So any vote here has more weight relatively than a vote in real life.

True, making sure those people vote who know what's going on on the site

n_palum

Yeah. Also considering that these elections probably are less rigged than real ones.

incesterror21

I heard there were bribes

GentlePurpleRain

Shhhh.... We don't talk about the bribes...

extends hand under the table

incesterror21

What bribes?

n_palum

3:34 PM

stretches hand out full of rep bounties

Techidiot

(Hands a note under the table) You do not need that anymore

incesterror21

What you do with your hands below the table with each other is your thing!

incesterror21

5:15 PM

@Marius You see, I don't even care about pronouns but that's not well received here

Deusovi

People unironically using the term "special snowflake" leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It's often used to make fun of LGBT+ people.

incesterror21

LGBT?

n_palum

^^ 1000% agreed.

Deusovi

An abbreviation for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender.

@incesterror21 It's not that hard to use the pronouns people ask you to use, and you're kind of a dick if you know their preferred pronouns and don't use them.

n_palum

Although it's also used to make fun of lumping together "liberal, overly sensitive teens/college kids"

incesterror21

5:16 PM

It is 'hard' for me I must say

n_palum

@Deusovi I'd say you aren't inherently one, unless you're deliberately avoiding it or using another one that was explicitly asked not to be used

Deusovi

I sometimes forget. There's nothing wrong with that. If I do, I apologize and correct myself.

Mithrandir

Just to be safe, refer to everyone as 'zie'.

Deusovi

@n_palum I was a bit imprecise there. Fixed it.

n_palum

Better :)

incesterror21

5:18 PM

True, but apologizing is going too far for me. If someone would want me to apologize for using the wrong pronoun that would mean they are a dick about it as well imo.

n_palum

@Mithrandir genderneutralpronoun.wordpress.com/tag/zie-and-hir

incesterror21

Maybe I have to get used to it over some time

Rubio

@Marius BTW, relevant from the "Be Nice" page - Name-calling. Focus on the post, not the person. That includes terms that feel personal even when they're applied to posts (like "lazy", "ignorant", or "whiny").

incesterror21

Going to read that link posted by @Mithrandir

Deusovi

I mean, it's not "I have brought dishonor upon me and all my descendants by using the wrong pronoun! I beseech you, forgive me for my transgressions!"

It's just "whoops, sorry about that"

it's typically not a huge deal

Rubio

5:19 PM

@n_palum I may operate in different circles. I've only heard "special snowflake" applied to this, not to LGBT+.

Deusovi

@Mithrandir I try to use "them" unless otherwise stated. Sometimes I slip up and assume "he", but I've been getting better at that

Mithrandir

@incesterror21 wasn't me - I just mentioned the word

n_palum

@Rubio I've heard it in both cases, you've heard one, Deus has heard the other, depends on where you are and who you know

Mithrandir

@Deusovi me too :)

ffao

I'll remember that apology for the next time one of my CCs gets Deushammered

Deusovi

5:20 PM

@Rubio Typically, yes, but with a lot of homophobic/transphobic people, it's expanded to anyone who isn't straight

n_palum

The Zie/Hir thing is more of a recent thing, although sometimes it's taken as a joke so it's had a hard time getting any sort of traction as a legitimate neutral pronoun

ffao

Well, you can't say someone is transphobic because they used a term which is also used by transphobic people to mean something else

incesterror21

Well, an owl will always be an owl even if you're calling it eagle

Mithrandir

I still find it slightly strange when people refer to steelersquirell as 'he'

Deusovi

@ffao True, and I never did say that

Rubio

5:22 PM

Oh, I don't doubt that it happens. Just I wouldn't have thought of the term as being demeaning to them, as I've never heard it used that way and certainly wouldn't interpret (or use) it that way myself. That would have been an interesting misunderstanding if it had come up organically somewhere.

Deusovi

@n_palum There have been a lot of different attempts to introduce gender-neutral pronouns. Most don't catch on.

n_palum

Yeah, introducing something like that is fairly difficult.

Mithrandir

(and I never remember how to spell 'squirrel'.)

@Rubio yes. This.

user61230

One of the mythical norms of the internet space is that everyone is male.

Mithrandir

Rule... What's the number?

incesterror21

5:25 PM

That's what he said

user61230

I know, not for a fact, but it takes no thought, that you all imagine me as physically male.

incesterror21

I think of you as an owl if it helps

Rubio

I imagine you as "they". hehe

n_palum

Unless it's been explicitly stated, I just assume everyone is a dog like Rubio

Deusovi

No, like we said in TSL, you're clearly an eldritch horror.

Mithrandir

5:26 PM

ActuActually, I tjithink ofof yyou adas snan oelowl becbecause I ddon't imimagine howhow pepeople llook...

Rubio

Wait, you're saying I assume everyone is a dog?

Sconibulus

I usually don't actually, because of the Emrakul/Emeria thing

but I really have no idea, that's just based on chosen handle

n_palum

@Rubio or am I saying I assume everyone is a dog, like you who is a dog

incesterror21

Certainly neither "he" nor "she" seems to fit here: gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/…

Mithrandir

Wow. That died.

Marius

5:29 PM

Sorry. I am in the middle of a board game with my son. I will get back and answèr the addidional questios later

incesterror21

The internet takes priority over your family!

Sid

6:15 PM

@Emrakul I think that is because of the dominance effect. 9 out of 10 people you see on the internet are males.

So, I guess it is natural Human tendency to inherently assume anyone to be male.

user61230

6:39 PM

@Sid It's actually been shown that we assume people are male until proven otherwise, and many people don't bother proving otherwise for one reason or another - often because it becomes incredibly tiring to do so.

user61230

There's a catch 22 that because women are magnitudes more likely to face harassment online, you're really not likely to see them self-identifying that way.

Sid

Hm, yeah, I agree about that.

n_palum

@Emrakul It's like a woman walking down a street, but instead of a street it's an internet highway where thousand of people can 'see' you

Absolutely makes sense to not identify

Sid

Actually, I have seen harassment of women on social media. Hardly ever on informative or hobby-like sites like Stack Exchange

n_palum

I wasn't saying here specifically, just online in general, which includes social media

user61230

6:49 PM

Stack Exchange is pretty progressive, so it's less prevalent here. Also, yeah, focused topics usually mean it's not as relevant and doesn't often come up.

Mithrandir

It's also immediately removed when it comes up

Like, sexism

ffao

the catch-22 goes deeper

90% of the people I have seen self-identify as female are actually male

Mithrandir

@ffao tg? Or just lulzing?

ffao

just lulzing

n_palum

I mean most of the time you're just taking someone's word for it

Mithrandir

6:53 PM

Or going off of avatar/username, however unreliable those are

Like @ffao - is your avatar accurate?

ffao

no

Sid

I like ffao's avatar simply because I can't remember where I had seen that anime character before..

Marius

@Rubio I don't necessarily agree with that. calling something one person does "stupid" is not the same as calling the person stupid. It's not transitive. I do stupid stuff. Everyone does. Does that make me stupid? Remember college? If you haven't been there yet, wait for it.

Mithrandir

changes username to 'Galadriel'... And that would probably make no difference in what people think, because I'm already established in their minds

ffao

dcfyj has the best avatar in all of SE, because I made it

Sconibulus

6:57 PM

@Mithrandir I would forget you used to be Mithrandir in like a month

like, I don't remember who Rotter turned into

Marius

@Deusovi This is exactly what I am saying. People feel offended by anything now. The subject was not LGBT. It was not pointed at someone. It was even used in the negative form "people are not special snowflakes" but you still found the need to point out that this is offensive to someone. This is being overly politically correct. This is wrong. To put it in the words of someone way more famous than me.... goodreads.com/quotes/…

Mithrandir

@Sconibulus Display Name

Marius

if you see comments from me that have nothing to do with the current topic, ignore them. I'm catching up where I left about 2.5h ago.

n_palum

I figured as much

Mithrandir

@Marius Gah. Does that mean 2 and a half or 2 hours 50 minutes? >.<

Marius

7:03 PM

@Mithrandir where did you get the impression of 50 minutes? . Why not 2and a half or 2h and 5 minutes?

Deusovi

@Marius ...What?I simply said it "left a bad taste in my mouth" metaphorically. I'm not offended by it - mildly annoyed, maybe, but not offended. (Also, "special snowflake" is used sarcastically anyway, so it being negative doesn't affect anything.)

Marius

@Deusovi I know it left a bad taste metaphorically because it wasn't possible literally....and the degree of inconvenience is irrelevant here. Ok. My bad for using the word "offended", but "mildly annoyed" or "offensive" is makes not difference. Focus on the idea not on the "implementation" details.

Mithrandir

@Marius because that would be 2.05

Marius

@Mithrandir why? It's not like 1h has 100 minutes.

Mithrandir

That's why it's confusing

incesterror21

7:08 PM

@Marius You can't reason someone out of something they haven't been reasoned into

Deusovi

@Marius I was pointing out that the words you used may have a connotation that you weren't aware of. If that's your threshold for deciding what "people getting offended" is, then I hope people get offended more often.

@Marius People commonly use 2:30 to represent "two hours, 30 minutes". People also often use periods instead of colons in times (7.30 for "seven thirty in the morning"). It's reasonable to assume that someone might do both.

n_palum

^^

Marius

@incesterror21 I was continuing it as a joke...It was irrelevant if it was 2 and a half or 2 and 50 minutes.

incesterror21

"Focus on the idea not on the "implementation" details." that is pretty good imo

Marius

OK. everyone, be honest, how much did my chances of being mod dropped in the last 3-4 hours? :D

incesterror21

7:12 PM

-37

Marius

percent? votes? candy bars?

incesterror21

I've never seen anyone who expressed chance with candy bars

n_palum

Well, I didn't vote for you to begin with, so none?

@incesterror21 Kids maybe :P

Sid

I haven't voted yet. :P

awesomepi

I have :P

Marius

7:15 PM

ok. I'll survive

Sid

@Marius I don't think it would have changed much.

Deusovi

I mean, your remarks here have been no worse than your other remarks.

Mithrandir

-6 lollipops

+1 chocolate bar

Double gumdrops

n_palum

You are being honest so

Marius

@Sid yes 0 - 37% is still 0.

@Mithrandir noooooo....not the lollipops.

incesterror21

7:18 PM

Actually they dropped by -37 which is +37

Marius

@Deusovi that's true

Deusovi

Still, though, your intentional disrespect for other people worries me.

Marius

disrespect for whom?

incesterror21

@Marius Don't get them started

n_palum

I don't know if it's intentional disrespect, blatant might be a better word.. or oblivious sort of

Deusovi

7:22 PM

Well, anyone who uses different pronouns than you were expecting, for one.

Sid

@Deusovi I don't see any intentional disrespect there. I think it is just one guy blatantly expressing a (maybe) politically incorrect statement.

Deusovi

And then there's the issue brought up by Emrakul of your comments on puzzles, which are certainly disrespectful.

Marius

@incesterror21 no no...I want to know.

incesterror21

Good luck with that

Marius

@Deusovi I don't get it...

Deusovi

7:23 PM

...Ignore that statement. For some reason, I was getting you and incesterror mixed up.

incesterror21

It's just that some people like @Marius and me never mean any harm and thus don't want to deal with all the correctness

Deusovi

The second still applies.

n_palum

@Marius You may just want to go over to Sphinx's Lair and look up pronouns in the chat, and see what was discussed this weekend

Deusovi

@incesterror21 ...You don't want to deal with all the correctness? To be honest, that sounds like you just don't want to put in the effort to address people properly

Marius

@Deusovi What's direspectful? The fact that I said a puzzle is "stupid"....well it was. This may mean that I am disrespectful to puzzles. I never called anyone stupid. Learn the difference.

incesterror21

7:26 PM

@ffao the best avatar is this: puzzling.stackexchange.com/users/29324/destructible-lemon

Mithrandir

@Marius but Be Nice essentially says not to

Deusovi

@Marius Sure, you didn't call the person stupid, but calling something someone made stupid is still disrespectful.

incesterror21

What if that is exactly what he wanted to point out? How else could he have said it?

Deusovi

"That" being?

n_palum

@incesterror21 "never mean any harm" and "don't want to deal with all the correctness" - it's not about being correct, it's just about respecting something that someone asked of you. By blatantly disregarding it, or just actively going against it, you are then being disrespectful.

incesterror21

7:28 PM

That the thing they've made is stupid

Deusovi

@n_palum Exactly.

Marius

@Deusovi No it it not. I tell my kid that he does stupid stuff when he does stupid stuff... I tell my colleagues they did stupid stuff during code review sessions....It's not the same as calling people stupid

you are way over sensitive

awesomepi

I think calling something that someone does stupid directly implies that said person is stupid for taking that action

Mithrandir

^

Deusovi

@incesterror21 How so? There must be some reason. You can give criticism without directly calling things stupid.

n_palum

7:29 PM

I would say that calling the thing they made stupid isn't inherently disrespectful, but I would say it's not constructive and unproductive, and doesn't really have a place based on the policies that are outlined on the network.

Marius

@awesomepi That's a stupid thing to say (now you understand what you want from this one I.m not explaining myself anymore because I seam to be talking to walls).

Rubio

@Marius (I wasn't here when this was responded to, and possibly some of what was said since addressed it, but ....) This isn't my opinion I'm stating here. I'm directly quoting from SE policy stated on the Be Nice page. If you disagree with it, take it up with them; until it's changed, though, it's kinda the rule around here.

incesterror21

Not sure if we're talking rules here rather than brains

awesomepi

Although it might not completely imply that said person is stupid in everything they do, it still implies that they're stupid in some way for taking that action.

Deusovi

Both.

Sid

7:31 PM

@Marius I think calling people stupid is easy to justify to people you know in real-life. Talking to strangers over the internet and calling their work stupid isn't exactly.... right?

Marius

@Rubio I disagree with it, but I respect it. I will not do it from now on. But don't exaggerate this.

Deusovi

@Marius I have no idea what that's supposed to mean. "Now you understand what you want from this one"?

Mithrandir

2 hours ago, by Rubio

@Marius BTW, relevant from the "Be Nice" page - Name-calling. Focus on the post, not the person. That includes terms that feel personal even when they're applied to posts (like "lazy", "ignorant", or "whiny").

incesterror21

@Marius Stick to your guns, don't be stupid

Marius

ok. I will answer 1 by 1. Damn, I'm going to be here all night.

Mithrandir

7:32 PM

Also;

2 hours ago, by Mithrandir

@Marius but the OP created the puzzle. Belittling the puzzle is belittling the author - that's not necessary. Just give advice on how to improve, there's no call for comments like 'this puzzle is stupid'.

Rubio

I didn't exaggerate anything. I quoted policy that was directly relevant to a statement you made about calling a post stupid. And just now I made another factual statement about the source of my previous comment. And now I'm dropping it, having said what I intended to say.

Marius

@awesomepi You never done anything stupid? I know I did...

n_palum

I understand where you are coming from with "I don't care what others say about me, things don't offend me" but the part I disagree with is when you say more or less "if I am impervious to being offended, then no one else should get offended". I am the same way that I don't really get bothered by things said to or about me, but that doesn't give me the right to say things to others assuming there are no consequences.

incesterror21

@n_palum There are consequences yes. But how many of them are due to being over sensitive and how many really hurt?

I haven't met someone who was actually hurt by words in ages I think

Sid

Define being "oversensitive"

n_palum

7:34 PM

@incesterror21 Not the point though. You aren't them, and you can't make everyone be you or feel how you do.

Again, I'm not hurt by words, I get you are not, but you don't know what or how other people think and feel.

Marius

@Deusovi I was explaining that calling something stupid is not the same as calling SOMEONE stupid and I got the answer that calling SOMETHING stupid implied the person is stupid, to which I replied "TO say that is stupid". Get where this is going? If not let me explain.... according to the person I was talking, I just called him stupid. According to what I was saying above I didn't....

n_palum

@Marius Saying that what they did does imply they are or at least were stupid. It may not imply that the person is always stupid or inherently so, but it does imply that in that moment (of talking/commenting/posting something) they were stupid (for doing so)

Marius

@incesterror21 Should I overreact about your comment? No because I'm not stupid.

incesterror21

@Sid Someone who feels the need to correct others/their behaviour although the intention was oviously not harm. People tend to do things because they are "correct" instead of thinking about what is appropriate at a certain moment.

@Marius Of course you are. Just like me you're still here

Marius

@n_palum NO it doesn't. It means you are human. You make stupid stuff and not so stupid stuff... The idea is not to get scars from the stupid stuff we do.

@incesterror21 Damn....you are right.

Sid

7:39 PM

Hehe, @Emrakul You wanted a little drama. You got it!

Sconibulus

@n_palum There is a difference between calling a person stupid, and calling an action or object the person created stupid. According to Stack Exchange though, both are prohibited. Additionally, calling a puzzle stupid doesn't help improve it or give much guidance as to what went wrong

incesterror21

Emrakowl

Deusovi

@incesterror21 If words cannot affect your emotional state, then I'm not sure what could.

incesterror21

@Deusovi Are you implying I'm not human?

awesomepi

Er...

what?

Deusovi

7:41 PM

No, I'm just surprised that words apparently can't affect you.

incesterror21

Well they are words after all. I can get the information out of them and then decide what to do with it.

n_palum

@Marius I get that everyone makes mistakes. And to learn from them and move on etc.

incesterror21

Sometimes I even make puzzles with words

Marius

@incesterror21 you shouldn't because they might hurt people

incesterror21

@Marius The puzzles? You mean if they are really bad?

Marius

7:43 PM

@incesterror21 I don't know, but they are made out of words

Sid

@Marius Yes, agreed. Everyone makes stupid mistakes. However, calling someone's work stupid without telling what makes them stupid isn't correct.

Marius

someone's "work"? come on ...that's not work

incesterror21

The other person could just reply "Thank you for your feedback. What would you change about it?"

Wouldn't that be very correct?

Marius

no, because nobody is wining in this case

Deusovi

I'm gonna move all this conversation to the Healthy Debate Room.

incesterror21

7:44 PM

Oh good idea

Deusovi

← 196 messages moved from Puzzling 2017 Moderator Election Chat

incesterror21

Those mod tools sure are mighty

Sconibulus

that's actually a room owner tool

incesterror21

@Deusovi is move = copy?

Deusovi

...Huh, apparently so. I guess that makes sense.

The terminology is definitely weird, though.

Sconibulus

7:47 PM

no, move isn't the same as copy

Rubio

Yeah - the idea was you could then delete none, some, or all, as needed

Sconibulus

however, that's enough messages it probably didn't update until you refresh

Rubio

So the "move" just copies, and you have to delete, or so something I read strongly implied

Sconibulus

or, wait, something funky's happening

yeah, there's a several-hour chunk missing from the other room now, it's just that the prior discussion was on basically the same topic :)

incesterror21

yeah, there's a several-hour junk missing

Rubio

7:52 PM

@Rubio oh - actually I think that was with respect to comments being moved from a post, now that I think about it. chat probably is different.

n_palum

@Sconibulus I forgot to answer, but yeah I know they're different, but implications can still occur from doing one or the other.

Sconibulus

oops, my bad, that was supposed to be a reply to @Marius' comment directly above

sorry

ffao

I've just seen too many people get in hot water for offending people when they meant nothing of the sort; just because someone used the word "black" to offend someone else, doesn't mean everyone else who uses it is now trying to offend people as well

it seems far too often bad faith is assumed, instead of good faith

or, if I refer to someone by a pronoun they didn't like because I forgot or didn't know, I wasn't being offensive

Mithrandir

Part of SE policy is 'assume good intentions'

n_palum

@ffao We weren't saying people doing that were offensive, most people have said that's the case. What the issue was, was people blatantly disregarding that

ffao

8:05 PM

this is especially true if you're a native speaker of a language that does not differentiate masculine / feminine his / her :(

n_palum

So we wouldn't worry that you forget things like that, the issue comes into play when you're saying "I don't feel like using it" or "It's not important to me, so I'm not using it"

incesterror21

Tudo bem

ffao

so you're one too, incest? :)

Sid

My native language doesn't differentiate between masculine and feminine gender. Yet, if someone says that they prefer to be called by a certain pronoun, then, so be it. I don't know how hard it is to do that.

incesterror21

@ffao Not really. Nao falo portuguese, desculpe.

ffao

8:07 PM

It is quite hard to keep remembering, at least for me it is

awesomepi

^

incesterror21

For me it's not naturally coming to my mind on the internet

Mithrandir

What's hard is what 'you' is either male or female and there's no neutral version

Sid

The point is not that. If someone prefers to be called a certain pronoun and you didn't use it, no big deal.

Mithrandir

...as long as it was an accident.

Sid

8:09 PM

Yes.

If you go on, saying "I will use xyz for them because I don't care if they get offended or not", that's a problem.

awesomepi

Intent is key

2

incesterror21

I just don't bother memorizing every pronoun respectively

As a result I might end up using the wrong ones

Deusovi

And if it's an honest mistake, that's fine. If it's intentional, that's not fine.

Mithrandir

After all, if xyz prefers to be referred to as xyz, so refer to xyz as that. It's not that hard to remember the couple people that care.

user61230

@ffao You can't choose to be willfully blind to the way words are used and what their implications are. You can't use the n-word then hide behind a veil of "well I didn't mean to offend anyone!"

ffao

8:19 PM

I have some trouble believing that someone using the n-word doesn't mean to offend anyone

if they didn't, then I would be OK with it, but that's a very hypothetical case

e.g. someone else told the person it meant something else

user61230

It's more common than you'd think. Or at best, people claim it all the time.

user61230

Heck, it's happened on Puzzling.

Mithrandir

I know a guy who claims 'they call themselves that'

incesterror21