Spring Cleaning

Feeds

5:45 AM

CLEANUP ACTION chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/71820/… (retag, retitle, dv, martin)

Martin - マーチン

7:22 AM

Needs down-votes? chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/71114/gas-question-at-slc

Unclear, or too broad? chemistry.stackexchange.com/q/71020/4945

related cleanup action: chemistry.stackexchange.com/q/70872/4945 (rm tag)

What to do with the following?

0

Q: Finding Equilibrium constant, cannot spot mistake

The correct answer is 5.57 but I get 557 from what I have? I seriously cannot spot my mistake.. Thanks

M.A.R.

9:14 AM

\o

Feeds

cleanup action: chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/71827/… (rm tag, @M.A.R.)

hBy2Py

11:06 AM

@Martin-マーチン Potentially broadly useful if rewritten as you commented and answered in full, including Ivan's comment too.

Martin - マーチン

i suspect this is not happening... therefore dv from me ;) The user has quite a few of these gems...

orthocresol

@Martin-マーチン too broad?

hBy2Py

@Martin-マーチン Title question seems ok. The body is bad, though. We really need @ortho's revised close reason for this one; this question is right on the line between the orange and the purple

@Martin-マーチン <nod>, it would have to be done as part of a community salvage effort

like one or the other of your recent meta posts

orthocresol

Hmm... actually no, it is really only one question

hBy2Py

@orthocresol That one is actually potentially useful, the exactly/approximately distinction

orthocresol

11:10 AM

The question is are IMFs negligible in real gases, the answer is by definition no..

Ya... but there are better ways of phrasing such a question

Martin - マーチン

yes, in principle I would agree on that sentiment, but I fear that the question itself is not salvageable unless you completely rewrite it. But then you could also write a much better self Q&A

hBy2Py

@Martin-マーチン We really need @ortho's new close reason here, too

orthocresol

I really dislike these MCQs

Exactly what mart said

hBy2Py

MCQ?

Martin - マーチン

multiple choice

orthocresol

11:11 AM

Multiple choice questions

hBy2Py

ahhh

Martin - マーチン

jinx

hBy2Py

lol, obviously... haven't had coffee yet, I guess.

orthocresol

No fair... I took longer because I typed questions...

:)

hBy2Py

Yeah, Mart, you really need to take a look at @ortho's thing

4

A: Formatting Sandbox II: please test stuff here

A new policy of closure, proposal 2 TL;DR Rewording homework close reason to cover the three categories of undesirable questions described below. In particular, expanding said close reason to cover: (1) amirite questions; (2) cases requiring far too much back-and-forth, which do not fit with...

Martin - マーチン

11:12 AM

lol, i snuck that in ;)

hBy2Py

I personally think we should try to fast-track it

Martin - マーチン

I was drinking last night, there is not much thinking with me today :(

hBy2Py

One of those inkings is a lot easier than the other

And only one is easier after one's done a lot of the former

That wavefunction is highly antisymmetric

Martin - マーチン

errr... whut?

hBy2Py

DRinking is a lot easier than THinking

and only DRinking is easier after a lot of THinking; THinking after lots of DRinking is not

Martin - マーチン

11:16 AM

@hBy2Py tell that to my Japanese friends...

hBy2Py

hence, anti-symmetry

hahaha

well, one can overcome

:-)

sake, man, that stuff. yeah.

Martin - マーチン

Anyway, about those questions. Because there was an occurrence, comment -> counter-comment (I know what to do...) I had a look at the other questions by the user to see if there is a pattern. There is. {s..}he posts the questions as pictures, little to no prior research etc. And I was a bit clueless on how to handle that... hence, there we are with the links.

orthocresol

11:31 AM

I'll take a look at it later today

hBy2Py

Broken record, here: we really need @ortho's new close reason for (questions like) these.

They'd be an easy close with it

orthocresol

indeed, broken record

i'm just lazy tbh

it's my fault that thing isn't out on meta yet

heather

hello

Martin - マーチン

just saying: if people down-voted bad questions more, we wouldn't really need to be closing so many questions

heather

will there be any planned event for [reaction] editing? I've been avoiding editing as to not flood the active queue.

Martin - マーチン

11:39 AM

@heather don't worry too much about that. That's why I posted the event notice. As long as you are not bumping all 500 questions at once, we should be fine ;)

heather

okay =)

orthocresol

does anybody understand this question at all?

0

Q: Magnetic Quantum Number

If one is trying to determine the possible magnetic quantum number assuming that the magnetic spin quantum number is at its max value for a 3d3. I know since all e must be alphas that the magnetic spin quantum number is 3/2....if one were to choose 3 arbitrary positions (such as 222 or 111 or 0,...

physical-chemistry quantum-chemistry theoretical-chemistry

hBy2Py

@Martin-マーチン Are you sure? There have been a lot of people answering low-quality questions lately

They usually get at least one upvote if it's a sensible answer

orthocresol

tbh I don't mind being aggressive on closure

hBy2Py

@heather Short answer is yes; we're still fleshing out the intro post on it

Martin - マーチン

11:48 AM

6

Q: How should we deal with bad questions that attracted not too helpful answers?

While I am trying to rid us of the reaction tag, I come across a couple of questions that have a negative score and thus could be classified as bad or a bad fit for our site. Usually such questions will be removed eventually as abandoned unless they attract an answer. Sometimes these questions...

discussion site-cleanup

hBy2Py

If you can think of any more questions/answers/info that would be good to include there, let us know, or edit it in yourself!

@Martin-マーチン That one or the other one, yeah

Martin - マーチン

And I would like to delete such things

hBy2Py

We need the Wet Carp of Stop Doing That™ for the people who keep answering the dang things.

@orthocresol Should we include "posting a problem as an image" in the new close thingy?

(if it's not there already)

orthocresol

@hBy2Py no

Martin - マーチン

@orthocresol I wouldn't mind that either, I'm just saying it would be less necessary if we down-vote more.

orthocresol

11:50 AM

oh, yes, certainly

hBy2Py

Is it (imagequestions) covered by some sort of 'low quality question' thing?

Martin - マーチン

@orthocresol no?

heather

@hBy2Py it's covered by editing, i thought

orthocresol

well, depends... if its text, and theyre lazy to type it out, then idk... but sometimes there are stuff that people dont know how to type, or just cannot be typed with the available functions on SE (namely structures)

hBy2Py

mmm

point

ok, agree not to include.

orthocresol

11:52 AM

i think that downvoting is the best... usually, most of the image-questions are crappy anyway..

anyway closure has its own problems... it is a slow process and very easy for people to sneak in low-quality answers

Martin - マーチン

yes, structures and the such are exempt, but then we have enough man-power to convert the odd good question. If it's just a picture, then away with it...

orthocresol

true, however, the community will have to decide wisely on this kind of close vote

Martin - マーチン

granted

I started down-voting semi-low quality answers to bad questions.

I am currently down-voting everything that I don't find useful in the long run.

orthocresol

the joys of having far more rep than you ever need

needa go out.. be back shortly

Feeds

12:15 PM

cleanup action: chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/71841/… (retag, martin)

M.A.R.

1:28 PM

You guys did most of the FAQ-y stuff

I guess it rests on my shoulders to organize the event?

@Mart get out of my head -- I read "Matrix" as "Martin" now

hBy2Py

@M.A.R. See anything missing?

@M.A.R. Welcome to the Martrix.

M.A.R.

TBH no

I didn't even plan to have this much documentation

hBy2Py

@M.A.R. I figure it's very reusable

M.A.R.

Yep

hBy2Py

I would like suggestions on the "what steps should I take?" question, currently empty

chemistry.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/3673/…

I mean, it depends on the type of cleanup event

For reaction, in a lot of cases a simple de-tag will suffice

with only a few questions needing ganged-up discussion and multi-party agreement

For others, people can just work on them like they would any old post they find on the frontpage

M.A.R.

1:42 PM

@hBy2Py Well, it's gonna be as simple as the organizer -- me -- posting a link, sorted in a way that would show the same for everyone

hBy2Py

Again, only bringing the odd cases for discussion in chat

M.A.R.

Then ask X to do the y first

etc.

Like TRE I

hBy2Py

No, not 'how will the event proceed?'

More, 'what steps do I take once I've been tasked with something?'

M.A.R.

But maybe, now that ROs can put rooms on time-out, I would be able to sustain the enthusiasm for a little bit

@hBy2Py Retag. o.o

Ideally, the answer to that Q would be detailing how edits should be done

hBy2Py

But not all of the cleanup events i can envision are retag only

M.A.R.

1:43 PM

So we make sure they're comprehensive enough for our taste

hBy2Py

So, I could probably just link to other meta guidance on good editing?

M.A.R.

@hBy2Py No, not just retag. I'm not thinking of various events being for various purposes. I'm thinking of various events for comprehensive editing of one whole thread

So no bad tags would be left

No salutations

hBy2Py

<nod>, exactly

M.A.R.

No Mathjax ab/misuses

hBy2Py

Though reaction may be a little different, because we're trying to make sure it gets done before Overwatch burninates it

M.A.R.

1:45 PM

So should we want to write down the steps, they would go as following

1. Retag the question. Remove tags discussed on meta to be bad apples, esp. [reaction] [homework]

2. Remove salutations and taglines (See fancy FAQ)

3. Edit to include Mathjax in body and answers when necessary, and exclude from titles.

(See FAQ for MathJax in titles; necessary because let's not touch "NaCl" as it's fine without \ce)

hBy2Py

<nod>, is mainly sub-/superscripts that are heinous

M.A.R.

@hBy2Py what else should I add? I think this much is enough

We don't want to spend much time on each post

hBy2Py

This is where it gets hairy, is the judgment call on whether a question is bad enough that it deserves downvote/closure/deletion

Is the purpose of these events also to bring such questions into chat to be hashed out?

Or, should we establish a common place for noting questions needing more involved discussion?

I completely agree with the goal of getting through questions quickly

That's why I made the "[reaction] questions needing detailed attention" column in the Project for reaction cleanup

In order not to break the pace of the event, people could just stick the IDs of problematic questions in there, for later combing-through

M.A.R.

@hBy2Py Mhm, slippery slope

@hBy2Py That would make sense

hBy2Py

I feel like this is one of the major policy decisions about these events

M.A.R.

1:53 PM

4. Flag a question for closure, or VTC, if you see fit.

5. If you're unsure about whether the question needs closure, post a link to it in chat.

6. The organizer -- me -- would call for people to stop VTC'ing/flagging. Then, QID of stuff that needs closing, if any pop up, go to a separate chatroom.

(And I would do that after a certain amount of CVs)

hBy2Py

How would you track the # of CVs?

M.A.R.

@hBy2Py \review stats

hBy2Py

I'm unclear procedurally what you mean by #6

You'd watch the length of the review queue?

M.A.R.

@hBy2Py If we reach, say, 100 CV reviews (This number might change, I need to see how many 3K'ers participate first), I'd ask everyone to stop flagging because CV'ers would run out of CVs and we won't want mods to do hard work. People would post stuff that needs closure in a separate chat, where we would VTC them gradually after a while

hBy2Py

I'm liking the idea here.... some of this should probably be edited into the "How does the cleanup process work?" question, though

@M.A.R. Ahhhh, if we go rate-limited on the review queue

Like what happened with heather and the suggested edit queue

M.A.R.

1:59 PM

@hBy2Py What happened?

hBy2Py

She was editing a lot

But she's sub-1k, so everything was a Suggested Edit

She got rate-limited there all the time

M.A.R.

And hit the 20 Suggested Edits?

hBy2Py

and then people got capped for approving suggested edits

<nod>

It's unfortunate, because she's above 5k on Physics, I think.

M.A.R.

Oh well, that's only for the Suggested Edits queue

hBy2Py

And is enthusiastic about the effort

But having anybody below 2k doing editing really slows things down

M.A.R.

2:00 PM

Every user on every site has only 24 VTCs, with the exception of SO and meta.SE being 50.

@hBy2Py Nah, it won't be that slow

The main thing slowing us down would be reviewing and editing Mathjax

hBy2Py

I guess everybody working will just need check the queues periodically

That should go in the FAQ, too, maybe

Should we review answers, too?

M.A.R.

@hBy2Py We should if we don't want to bump the post again for answer edits . . . But it would become even slower

So I'm not sure

0

Q: Pesticide Edolan U

I haver recently become aware that old woolen blankets from the 1940:s to the 1970:s often contain the pesticide "eulan U 33" or "Edolan U" and wonder what is the best way to dispose of these. Ordinary burning is apparantly not enough.

everyday-chemistry

What tags to use?

hBy2Py

safety

e-c is probably ok

M.A.R.

Right, I always forget that tag

hBy2Py

Answer is to call a disposal company, see what they say

Or the municipal solid waste people

It's a reasonable question, but a pretty bad one for an SE site.

M.A.R.

2:08 PM

1940

hBy2Py

wwii-era, cold-war-era

toxic-consumer-products

throwing-out-my-old-stuff

garage-sale-chemistry

orthocresol

2:27 PM

@hBy2Py I also thought this was experimental-chemistry at first

hBy2Py

VTC - unclear what you're acronymming

hBy2Py

2:45 PM

:36464064 Probably because it's a system message

orthocresol

!!flip/Hippalectryon

M.A.R.

Or rather, semantics

@orthocresol - So it goes. Still an interesting question - is pure HF an acid or not without the presence of water. — Jon Custer 5 mins ago

orthocresol

flags as not constructive

Anywa, I was just catching up on this chat log.

@M.A.R. it seems that there is going to be a different system from TRE I

M.A.R.

@orthocresol Yeah, more elaborate

orthocresol

well, you guys can be in charge

M.A.R.

3:00 PM

But anyway, predicting the disappointments and happinesses and the outcomes and stats heavily relies on TRE I in my mind

hBy2Py

@JonCuster HF is a stronger acid than F- is. Acidity is a continuous scale, not an either/or or yes/no binary category. — hBy2Py 43 secs ago

orthocresol

Yeah, the actual thing is pretty much TRE I, isn't it?

Were there disappointments?

ಠ_ಠ

hBy2Py

@M.A.R. Predicting them?

Do you mean, anticipating them?

M.A.R.

Yeah, that. Stupid English words.

hBy2Py

Nah, they're really close; just the nuance struck me funny

I wish I'd taken part in TRE I; I'd have a much better sense of the feel/flow of the event

M.A.R.

3:07 PM

@hBy2Py Well, the only part worrying me about Spring Cleaning/TRE II is 2749 people chatting at once

So yeah, I'm gonna use time-outs

hBy2Py

@M.A.R. Are we likely to have that many?

M.A.R.

Yes if you want to exaggerate

hBy2Py

We've only got 10 people tied into the GitHub org a.t.m.

This would be a good reason to specifically add instructions for people to not discuss questions in chat

To just dump the IDs of problematic questions someplace and move on

That way the SC chat room would just be for coordination of tasks

M.A.R.

3:27 PM

@hBy2Py Well, having a tab people can switch to, to see another group of people is useful

It gives a sense of organization, to say the least

Hey @Down

Down Christopher

@M.A.R. Hey

M.A.R.

@DownChristopher What is it with you PPCG people always choosing a downvote-related avatar? O.O

Down Christopher

@M.A.R. Eh downgoat is the fault

hBy2Py

@M.A.R. Maybe have a separate, new chat room for conversations related to each event?

or, heck, several (if needed)?

M.A.R.

@hBy2Py What would be this room for, then?

hBy2Py

3:29 PM

@M.A.R. Just coordination

M.A.R.

@DownChristopher Well, thanks to them, I keep confusing all you downies

hBy2Py

Assigning tasks, and people checking back in that they're completed

M.A.R.

@hBy2Py I guess two/three rooms for all purposes would be enough

Too many and there will be utter confusion

hBy2Py

Two is what I figure

1) Task coordination

2) Discussion

Down Christopher

@M.A.R. I only know Downgoat and me

M.A.R.

3:30 PM

We should have a main room for discussion, which is this

hBy2Py

@DownChristopher Any idea when ppcg's site design will be done?

@M.A.R. Ok, then the new room could be the coordination room

Chemistry Coordination

Down Christopher

@hBy2Py I wish :_(

Looking forward to it

hBy2Py

@DownChristopher The graduation is confirmed though, right?

M.A.R.

@hBy2Py You mean the one we'll dump questions to discuss the tags/closure for?

hBy2Py

@M.A.R. No, that would be a third, I guess

Down Christopher

3:32 PM

@hBy2Py Oh yeah we graduated a while ago

M.A.R.

@hBy2Py Uh, so a room for discussion, and another one for discussion?

hBy2Py

1) Discussion

2) Coordination

Down Christopher

162

Q: Congratulations, you're graduating!

It's a big day, and I know you folks have been waiting a reeeaaal long while. Double waiting, you might even say, since unfortunately we made you wait even longer after initial news. But, let's make it official! You've been cleared for graduation by the Stack Exchange Community Team! Programming ...

discussion graduation

M.A.R.

The only difference being the type of discussion?

hBy2Py

3) Dumping place for questions

M.A.R.

3:33 PM

@DownChristopher Give it time. Designs take some time. IIRC chem's took months too

hBy2Py

Alternatively we could declare a search keyword, like 'CLEANUP DISCUSSION,' that people could use to mark things needing discussion.

Then they could just post them to the discussion room

Down Christopher

@M.A.R. Didn't we have a competition to graduate first?

M.A.R.

@hBy2Py Oh, well, I think 1 and 2 don't need to be separate. I'm pretty sure the discussion room will be deserted when the effort is being coordinated

@DownChristopher Hmm?

hBy2Py

@M.A.R. But you were worried about things getting too hectic in the room...?

M.A.R.

@hBy2Py Yeah, but adding another room won't fix that. Disallowing people from jumping in would

Down Christopher

3:35 PM

@M.A.R. Actually it was code review

21

A: The Many Memes of PPCG

Meme: Code Review Originator: unclear / syb0rg? Cultural Height: up to CR's graduation :( Background: Ever since around March of 2014, Programming Puzzles & Code Golf and Code Review have had a friendly rivalry of who could graduate first (which has expanded to become a friendly rivalry in gen...

M.A.R.

BRB

M.A.R.

3:51 PM

Hey @anon! Welcome

in Root Access, 5 mins ago, by Powershell for Linux

hBy2Py

Indeed, @anon, welcome to our Den of Scheming™!

anonymous2

5:04 PM

@M.A.R. Thanks!

@hBy2Py Scheming or Cleaning?

orthocresol

5:15 PM

@anonymous2 Scheme Preaning

hBy2Py

@anonymous2 Oh, right, um... Den of Scheming about Cleaning™?

anonymous2

6:11 PM

Lol.

M.A.R.

5

Q: Is moderator Maulik V ok?

I haven't seen moderator Maulik V around for some time. Is he ok? Does SE try to look after their moderators if they go missing?

support

Now you'd wonder how you can make Orthocresol disappear

I was reminded of this

in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, Mar 23 at 23:27, by Riker

@JasonC why are you not ded yet

anonymous2

@M.A.R. Lol.

That's the worst missed reply hit I've seen yet.

hBy2Py

7:37 PM

Ultimately, @M.A.R., if you have a vision for how to set up and run the event -- please run with it.

M.A.R.

@hBy2Py Yeah, but it's vague like anything else. I'm trusting you with Github organization and stuff

Because I haven't yet managed to get used to its UI

hBy2Py

@M.A.R. Maybe we should just scrap GitHub, and organize everything in a meta post somewhere

Meta is less fully featured and more awkward for something like this, but it's more visible and everybody already knows how to work with it.

M.A.R.

@hBy2Py The thing I liked about GitHub was exactly that it wasn't meta.Chem

Meta is terrible for live stuff

hBy2Py

@M.A.R. <nod>, that was what got me looking for something else

A Google Doc is another thing I've thought of

M.A.R.

Google Docs is awesome for something that needs collaboration and will end up being a single other thing

Like a meta post

But a live event . . . How?

Meh, I like the Github idea

Don't lose self-confidence

And I think when @Mart gives a go, we'll start starting the event

hBy2Py

7:46 PM

It has really good simultaneous collaboration, actually

I don't mean as a chat forum or anything

but for marking stuff off (strikethroughs &c) it might be really clean

We'll try the GitHub, since it's set up there. If it causes problems, we can re-evaluate

M.A.R.

Yeah

hBy2Py

9:41 PM

@ortho, @M.A.R. and I were talking about what might go in this FAQ answer

Is 'how to edit' the right content for this? Or, 'what should the scope of my edits be'?

orthocresol

Hm, oh damn

hBy2Py

And, 'should we fully edit all questions in full-press events like this? Or, just do quick tasks like retagging, while noting somewhere posts that need more editing, which can be done later?'

It's okay

orthocresol

I wrote up that post

hBy2Py

If that edit guidance isn't somewhere else already, it should be somewhere

orthocresol

Did you see?

hBy2Py

9:42 PM

So it won't be wasted

Yep, that's what prompted me to ping you. :-)

orthocresol

I see. I'm not sure how CW posts work, so wasn't sure whether you got a notif.

hBy2Py

Yep, turns out I do. Not sure if every contributor does, or just the original poster, though.

orthocresol

Anyway... I am not sure

hBy2Py

Is there detailed guidance on how to edit well somewhere?

I know there's the 'hidden tips of editing' meta post

orthocresol

I don't think so, not on chem at least

and editing on chem is quite site-specific

hBy2Py

9:44 PM

<nod>

mhchem &c.

Anyways, I'm torn about the philosophy of edit extensiveness in a chat event like this

Hand 1: Minimal editing churns through the task list faster.

orthocresol

Me too, to some extent.

hBy2Py

Hand 2: Detailed editing means people not having to come back later

orthocresol

I want to encourage substantial edits, but there are a fair bit of questions for which substantial edits are just too tiring.

hBy2Py

Hand 1 Negative: People have to come back later

Hand 2 Negative: Probably have to have more events

homework probably can't be simple detags

because of what it is

almost we need to draw up two or more 'what do I do when editing' scenarios

orthocresol

Questions with horrible grammar, etc. basically need double the effort to 1) understand the question 2) rewrite it in good english

hBy2Py

9:47 PM

Or, maybe, a numbered list of tasks -- and for any given event, the expectations can be ticked off that list

"For this chat event, focus is on (1), (3) and (6). In particular, do not do (5) as part of the event but mark such questions in {dump for question IDs} for further editing."

Gotta go for now, headed home.

Something to think about.

I'd say leave the editing post for now, but we should think about where else might be good to put it

Could just be another FAQ answer.

orthocresol

Mm ok.

hBy2Py

But not sure if it's a bit tangential for that particular post.

Feeds

cleanup action chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/71881/… closed, retagged (ortho)

orthocresol

10:46 PM

@hBy2Py Anyway, if you decide you want to edit it, just go ahead. If we ever need what I typed, it will always be there in the revision history, so no biggie.

pentavalentcarbon

11:16 PM

anecdotally I found that when I was doing reaction + physical-chemistry, I did more than just retag for probably 40-50% of them

nothing super substantial, but not necessarily a drive-by edit

heather

hello

pentavalentcarbon

hola

hBy2Py

11:36 PM

@pentavalentcarbon <nod>

Maybe a 1-10 of 'edit intensity'... ranging from 'retag only' to 'rewrite from scratch', where an event is labeled with the desired edit intensity (@ortho)

With editors having the freedom to act as they please

heather

11:49 PM

@hBy2Py hello =)

and...goodbye =P

hBy2Py

@heather Dinnertime here, lots to take care of, so I'm in and out.

orthocresol

@hBy2Py to be honest, I don't think it needs to be regulated super tightly

just encourage people to be thorough, but if they don't want to be, there's not much we can do to stop them; that's how it is ordinarily anyway, especially once you have >2k rep, you can make incredibly minor edits and nobody will stop you

but it's your call

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